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Re: Turbo yeast protocol

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  • shine.maker
    Jim, I was out of town, so I have not had a chance to read in depth all of the responses about Cone and Raines. It would appear that Cone is the more
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 21, 2009
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      Jim,
      I was out of town, so I have not had a chance to read in depth all of the responses about Cone and Raines. It would appear that Cone is the more pertinent authority because I was making wine not beer. Also I clicked this link being discussed and noted that the pH is a larger factor as alcohol increases.

      Much of this pH discussion is centered around "turbo washes" which have high sugar, low buffering, and low nutrients. I made a fruit must that I added no water too, but I bumped the sugar from 8% potential alcohol up to 10%, so I was not asking the yeast to go anywhere near their limit.

      I think you are advocating that fruit musts do not need any acidification if the wine will be processed in short order and this may be true depending on the type and quality of the fruit to be fermented. However, I contend that some preventative measures should be performed. If acidification caused "off flavors" I have not noticed any. Furthermore, I doubt it would be advocated in the Artisan Distilling book that specifically deals with fruit brandies and Eau de Vie. From what is written in the Artisan Distilling bookI got the impression that acidification is the norm for brandy production in Germany and it was specifically advised that acid is added at the rate of 55-110ml/100kg fruit, but it is also said this is not required.

      Specific to Cherries:
      "When using cherries the fermentation should in general be done under acid protection, especially if the filling of the barrels extends over a longer period of time or if the raw material shows different quality. Moreover the distillation of acid-treated mashes can be postponed. In these cases an acidification with 200 g sulfuric acid or 150 g phosphorus acid and lactic acid per hl, respectively, has proven to be advantageous. A combined treatment with 10 g Pectinex forte and 100 g phosphorus acid and lactic acid per hl, respectively, has likewise proven advantageous. It should be mentioned that an acid treatment is not necessarily required if the cherries are healthy, fermented with fermentation salts and pure yeast and distilled within 3-4 weeks."

      This forum is intended to share information about distilling and I think you are suggesting my pH 3.0 ferment was a mistake. Reasonable people can disagree on the best way to accomplish a goal and while you may choose not to use low pH ferments, I think they are a good practice.

      Shine.Maker


      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Nice Catch Wal,
      >
      > Im sure Shine Maker would like to read this - for his 3.0 pH cherry
      > fermentation. Going to stick this in the Info base for future
      > reference.
      >
      > Vino es Veritas,
      >
      > Jim aka Waldo.
      >
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
      > >
      > > It is good to look back to past messages -
      > >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/2018
      > >
      > > wal
      > >
      >
    • jamesonbeam1
      Shine, Not the case at all. Im all for acidification of musts. Some how we got on this subject when i was discussing how to invert sugar with citric acid. I
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 21, 2009
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        Shine,

        Not the case at all. Im all for acidification of musts. Some how we
        got on this subject when i was discussing how to invert sugar with
        citric acid. I just dont think for short fermentations it needs to be
        below 4.0. Dr. Cone suggests adding buffers to keep the pH above the
        3.0 mark which I tend to agree with:

        "pH below 3.1 places an added stress on the yeast cell as the % alcohol
        increases. It is best to maintain a 3.4+ pH. Use carbonates such as
        potassium carbonate to keep the pH above 3.4. It is especially important
        to
        monitor the pH during the early hours of fermentation when you are using
        sugar, honey and some concentrates to increase the alcohol level. There
        is
        little or no buffering capacity in these sources of sugar."

        Thats the only thing i was concerned about Shine. But, yes i support
        acidification of all fruit musts, as well as sugar washes. Now grain
        mashes are another story - usually their pH levels are low enought
        without having to add acids.

        So sorry if I confused you. Again, if it aint broke - dont fix it..

        Vino es Veritas,

        Jim aka Waldo.



        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "shine.maker" <shine.maker@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Jim,
        > I was out of town, so I have not had a chance to read in depth all of
        the responses about Cone and Raines. It would appear that Cone is the
        more pertinent authority because I was making wine not beer. Also I
        clicked this link being discussed and noted that the pH is a larger
        factor as alcohol increases.
        >
        > Much of this pH discussion is centered around "turbo washes" which
        have high sugar, low buffering, and low nutrients. I made a fruit must
        that I added no water too, but I bumped the sugar from 8% potential
        alcohol up to 10%, so I was not asking the yeast to go anywhere near
        their limit.
        >
        > I think you are advocating that fruit musts do not need any
        acidification if the wine will be processed in short order and this may
        be true depending on the type and quality of the fruit to be fermented.
        However, I contend that some preventative measures should be performed.
        If acidification caused "off flavors" I have not noticed any.
        Furthermore, I doubt it would be advocated in the Artisan Distilling
        book that specifically deals with fruit brandies and Eau de Vie. From
        what is written in the Artisan Distilling bookI got the impression that
        acidification is the norm for brandy production in Germany and it was
        specifically advised that acid is added at the rate of 55-110ml/100kg
        fruit, but it is also said this is not required.
        >
        > Specific to Cherries:
        > "When using cherries the fermentation should in general be done under
        acid protection, especially if the filling of the barrels extends over a
        longer period of time or if the raw material shows different quality.
        Moreover the distillation of acid-treated mashes can be postponed. In
        these cases an acidification with 200 g sulfuric acid or 150 g
        phosphorus acid and lactic acid per hl, respectively, has proven to be
        advantageous. A combined treatment with 10 g Pectinex forte and 100 g
        phosphorus acid and lactic acid per hl, respectively, has likewise
        proven advantageous. It should be mentioned that an acid treatment is
        not necessarily required if the cherries are healthy, fermented with
        fermentation salts and pure yeast and distilled within 3-4 weeks."
        >
        > This forum is intended to share information about distilling and I
        think you are suggesting my pH 3.0 ferment was a mistake. Reasonable
        people can disagree on the best way to accomplish a goal and while you
        may choose not to use low pH ferments, I think they are a good practice.
        >
        > Shine.Maker
      • waljaco
        Sour mash suggests that adding acid (spent wash or lactic acid) to a grain mash is common? wal
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 22, 2009
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          Sour mash suggests that adding acid (spent wash or lactic acid) to a grain mash is common?
          wal
          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Shine,
          >
          > Not the case at all. Im all for acidification of musts. Some how we
          > got on this subject when i was discussing how to invert sugar with
          > citric acid. I just dont think for short fermentations it needs to be
          > below 4.0. Dr. Cone suggests adding buffers to keep the pH above the
          > 3.0 mark which I tend to agree with:
          >
          > "pH below 3.1 places an added stress on the yeast cell as the % alcohol
          > increases. It is best to maintain a 3.4+ pH. Use carbonates such as
          > potassium carbonate to keep the pH above 3.4. It is especially important
          > to
          > monitor the pH during the early hours of fermentation when you are using
          > sugar, honey and some concentrates to increase the alcohol level. There
          > is
          > little or no buffering capacity in these sources of sugar."
          >
          > Thats the only thing i was concerned about Shine. But, yes i support
          > acidification of all fruit musts, as well as sugar washes. Now grain
          > mashes are another story - usually their pH levels are low enought
          > without having to add acids.
          >
          > So sorry if I confused you. Again, if it aint broke - dont fix it..
          >
          > Vino es Veritas,
          >
          > Jim aka Waldo.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "shine.maker" <shine.maker@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Jim,
          > > I was out of town, so I have not had a chance to read in depth all of
          > the responses about Cone and Raines. It would appear that Cone is the
          > more pertinent authority because I was making wine not beer. Also I
          > clicked this link being discussed and noted that the pH is a larger
          > factor as alcohol increases.
          > >
          > > Much of this pH discussion is centered around "turbo washes" which
          > have high sugar, low buffering, and low nutrients. I made a fruit must
          > that I added no water too, but I bumped the sugar from 8% potential
          > alcohol up to 10%, so I was not asking the yeast to go anywhere near
          > their limit.
          > >
          > > I think you are advocating that fruit musts do not need any
          > acidification if the wine will be processed in short order and this may
          > be true depending on the type and quality of the fruit to be fermented.
          > However, I contend that some preventative measures should be performed.
          > If acidification caused "off flavors" I have not noticed any.
          > Furthermore, I doubt it would be advocated in the Artisan Distilling
          > book that specifically deals with fruit brandies and Eau de Vie. From
          > what is written in the Artisan Distilling bookI got the impression that
          > acidification is the norm for brandy production in Germany and it was
          > specifically advised that acid is added at the rate of 55-110ml/100kg
          > fruit, but it is also said this is not required.
          > >
          > > Specific to Cherries:
          > > "When using cherries the fermentation should in general be done under
          > acid protection, especially if the filling of the barrels extends over a
          > longer period of time or if the raw material shows different quality.
          > Moreover the distillation of acid-treated mashes can be postponed. In
          > these cases an acidification with 200 g sulfuric acid or 150 g
          > phosphorus acid and lactic acid per hl, respectively, has proven to be
          > advantageous. A combined treatment with 10 g Pectinex forte and 100 g
          > phosphorus acid and lactic acid per hl, respectively, has likewise
          > proven advantageous. It should be mentioned that an acid treatment is
          > not necessarily required if the cherries are healthy, fermented with
          > fermentation salts and pure yeast and distilled within 3-4 weeks."
          > >
          > > This forum is intended to share information about distilling and I
          > think you are suggesting my pH 3.0 ferment was a mistake. Reasonable
          > people can disagree on the best way to accomplish a goal and while you
          > may choose not to use low pH ferments, I think they are a good practice.
          > >
          > > Shine.Maker
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          Exactly Wal, Since I use the sour mash method exclusively, there is no need for any further acidification - Even when inverting the sugar, by using the backset
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 22, 2009
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            Exactly Wal,

            Since I use the sour mash method exclusively, there is no need for any
            further acidification - Even when inverting the sugar, by using the
            backset to make the syrup and much less citric acid, I have found that
            around 30% backset added to the new fermentation , will give around a
            starting pH of 5.4, which is pretty much standard in the whiskey making
            world.

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim aka Waldo.


            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sour mash suggests that adding acid (spent wash or lactic acid) to a
            grain mash is common?
            > wal
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.