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RE: [Distillers] Re: Parrot's beak...

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  • KM Services
    End of my day Mate sipping on a nice aged scotch cheers here s to you Ken Mc (This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure) _____ From:
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 31 10:31 PM
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      End of my day Mate sipping on a nice aged scotch cheers here’s to you

      Ken Mc (This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure)

       


      From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of abbababbaccc
      Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 5:24 p.m.
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Parrot's beak...

      I meant to say whisky and other flavored drinks. Must get me morning cup of tea before I start writing these things.
      Slainte, Riku


    • Rasputin Paracelsus
      Do you not think there s some value even on the end of a reflux rig? I haven t got one, and I ve been thinking of making one.... Seems to me it would be worth
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 1, 2009
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        Do you not think there's some value even on the end of a reflux rig? I
        haven't got one, and I've been thinking of making one.... Seems to me it
        would be worth being able to monitor the ABV output over time...

        R

        abbababbaccc wrote:
        > I meant to say whisky and other flavored drinks. Must get me morning cup of tea before I start writing these things.
        >
        > Slainte, Riku
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
        >
        >> It is quite useful if you make whisky with a potstill. Other than that there's little use for it.
        >>
        >> Slainte, Riku
        >>
        >>
      • abbababbaccc
        With reflux rig the value is 95.6% all the time if your rig is good and you do things correctly. It COULD be useful if you were to use reflux rig for flavored
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 1, 2009
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          With reflux rig the value is 95.6% all the time if your rig is good and you do things correctly. It COULD be useful if you were to use reflux rig for flavored drinks in ensuring the repeatability, but I can see no point in it for neutral alcohol. Either the ethanol is neutral or not, you can and often will have non neutral alcohol at 95.6% ABV as the tails set in.

          Actually the Thor's hammer whisky experiment I wrote about, I was using parrots beak for that. Had I written down the starting ABV and amount of mash, ABV of cut points and flow rate for reflux action I could repeat that batch of whiskey without any trouble. Almost as easy as a pot still, only you get more hearts out. The key to that procedure was the reflux that happens as the column warms up. It compresses the heads quite a lot which makes for less heads. The reflux return I started after the heads cut which again compressed tails considerably.

          Slainte, Riku

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Rasputin Paracelsus <rasputin@...> wrote:
          >
          > Do you not think there's some value even on the end of a reflux rig? I
          > haven't got one, and I've been thinking of making one.... Seems to me it
          > would be worth being able to monitor the ABV output over time...
          >
          > R
          >
          > abbababbaccc wrote:
          > > I meant to say whisky and other flavored drinks. Must get me morning cup of tea before I start writing these things.
          > >
          > > Slainte, Riku
          > >
          > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
          > >
          > >> It is quite useful if you make whisky with a potstill. Other than that there's little use for it.
          > >>
          > >> Slainte, Riku
          > >>
          > >>
          >
        • Rasputin Paracelsus
          Thank-you! R
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 1, 2009
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            Thank-you!

            R

            abbababbaccc wrote:
            > With reflux rig the value is 95.6% all the time if your rig is good and you do things correctly. It COULD be useful if you were to use reflux rig for flavored drinks in ensuring the repeatability, but I can see no point in it for neutral alcohol. Either the ethanol is neutral or not, you can and often will have non neutral alcohol at 95.6% ABV as the tails set in.
            >
            > Actually the Thor's hammer whisky experiment I wrote about, I was using parrots beak for that. Had I written down the starting ABV and amount of mash, ABV of cut points and flow rate for reflux action I could repeat that batch of whiskey without any trouble. Almost as easy as a pot still, only you get more hearts out. The key to that procedure was the reflux that happens as the column warms up. It compresses the heads quite a lot which makes for less heads. The reflux return I started after the heads cut which again compressed tails considerably.
            >
            > Slainte, Riku
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Rasputin Paracelsus <rasputin@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Do you not think there's some value even on the end of a reflux rig? I
            >> haven't got one, and I've been thinking of making one.... Seems to me it
            >> would be worth being able to monitor the ABV output over time...
            >>
            >> R
            >>
            >>
          • Harry
            ... The key to that procedure was the reflux that happens as the column warms up. It compresses the heads quite a lot which makes for less heads. The
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 1, 2009
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              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
              <snip>

              The key to that procedure was the reflux that happens as the column warms up. It compresses the heads quite a lot which makes for less heads. The reflux return I started after the heads cut which again compressed tails considerably.
              >
              > Slainte, Riku


              Riku,

              May I suggest we NOT use the word "compressed"? It may give the illusion that we are applying pressure, and there's (almost) no pressure in our stills.

              You can compress water, or almost any material. However, it requires a great deal of pressure to accomplish a little compression. For that reason, liquids and solids are sometimes referred to as being incompressible.


              The word to use should be "concentrate", which is increased strength or percentage of a substance (heads / tails) in a given volume of distillate.

              Sorry if it sounds pedantic but ther is a real difference, especially for newcomers to the hobby.


              Slainte!
              regards Harry
              ps...posted in public only for enlightening purposes. No malice intended. :)
            • abbababbaccc
              You re right Harry. I was thinking heads as a layer on top of the column which in this case gets compressed as in coming shorter and more concentrated. Well,
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 1, 2009
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                You're right Harry. I was thinking heads as a layer on top of the column which in this case gets "compressed" as in coming shorter and more concentrated. Well, English being my third language these things do happen.

                Slainte, Riku

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Riku,
                >
                > May I suggest we NOT use the word "compressed"? It may give the illusion that we are applying pressure, and there's (almost) no pressure in our stills.
                >
                > You can compress water, or almost any material. However, it requires a great deal of pressure to accomplish a little compression. For that reason, liquids and solids are sometimes referred to as being incompressible.
                >
                >
                > The word to use should be "concentrate", which is increased strength or percentage of a substance (heads / tails) in a given volume of distillate.
                >
                > Sorry if it sounds pedantic but ther is a real difference, especially for newcomers to the hobby.
                >
                >
                > Slainte!
                > regards Harry
                > ps...posted in public only for enlightening purposes. No malice intended. :)
                >
              • PhilipWilson
                I ve got a parrot beak. It s fun to watch, but I ve essentially stopped using it in favor of monitoring the vapor temperature at takeoff. One can easily work
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 2, 2009
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                  I've got a parrot beak. It's fun to watch, but I've essentially stopped using it in favor of monitoring the vapor temperature at takeoff. One can easily work backward from vapor temperature to %ABV, right? Is there any reason to prefer a parrot beak?


                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Rasputin Paracelsus <rasputin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Do you not think there's some value even on the end of a reflux rig? I
                  > haven't got one, and I've been thinking of making one.... Seems to me it
                  > would be worth being able to monitor the ABV output over time...
                  >
                  > R
                  >
                  > abbababbaccc wrote:
                  > > I meant to say whisky and other flavored drinks. Must get me morning cup of tea before I start writing these things.
                  > >
                  > > Slainte, Riku
                  > >
                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> It is quite useful if you make whisky with a potstill. Other than that there's little use for it.
                  > >>
                  > >> Slainte, Riku
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  >
                • abbababbaccc
                  Parrot s beak is typically more accurate than your thermometer. As an example the ABV range of 57%-62% presents a change from 81C-82C in vapor temperature.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 2, 2009
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                    Parrot's beak is typically more accurate than your thermometer. As an example the ABV range of 57%-62% presents a change from 81C-82C in vapor temperature. Unless you have an accurate digital thermometer the parrot's beak is better in accuracy.

                    As a negative aspect the heads components do mix and stay longer in the beak due to it's volume making your heads cut larger. On the other hand this may well contribute to the flavor of whisky, these things are very hard to judge correctly without extensive and detailed testing.

                    Slainte, Riku

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "PhilipWilson" <pgw@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I've got a parrot beak. It's fun to watch, but I've essentially stopped using it in favor of monitoring the vapor temperature at takeoff. One can easily work backward from vapor temperature to %ABV, right? Is there any reason to prefer a parrot beak?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • abbababbaccc
                    OK, I ll correct meself. 57% ABV = 81.9C, 62% ABV = 81.4C. I read the wrong line in the table... That 81-82C would then be 65%-56% which would be the same as
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 2, 2009
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                      OK, I'll correct meself. 57% ABV = 81.9C, 62% ABV = 81.4C. I read the wrong line in the table... That 81-82C would then be 65%-56% which would be the same as difference inbetween regular cut and very late cut.

                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Parrot's beak is typically more accurate than your thermometer. As an example the ABV range of 57%-62% presents a change from 81C-82C in vapor temperature. Unless you have an accurate digital thermometer the parrot's beak is better in accuracy.
                      >
                      > As a negative aspect the heads components do mix and stay longer in the beak due to it's volume making your heads cut larger. On the other hand this may well contribute to the flavor of whisky, these things are very hard to judge correctly without extensive and detailed testing.
                      >
                      > Slainte, Riku
                      >
                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "PhilipWilson" <pgw@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I've got a parrot beak. It's fun to watch, but I've essentially stopped using it in favor of monitoring the vapor temperature at takeoff. One can easily work backward from vapor temperature to %ABV, right? Is there any reason to prefer a parrot beak?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • abbababbaccc
                      I think I need new glasses, I was AGAIN reading the wrong line of that b***dy table as pointed out by one of our members. Or perhaps I just need to learn how
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 3, 2009
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                        I think I need new glasses, I was AGAIN reading the wrong line of that b***dy table as pointed out by one of our members. Or perhaps I just need to learn how to use it ...

                        Anyway, new example now:
                        55% abv -> 92.6C
                        65% abv -> 89.7C
                        75% abv -> 85.2C

                        The problem as I pointed out is the accuracy. Now a high quality digital thermometer works just as well as parrot's beak if you know the cut points. The problem is that cheap thermoprobes have 0.2C accuracy and cheap digital thermometers/probes sometimes loose their calibration (as has happened to me) or are calibrated wrong to begin with. With non-digital thermometers the cut can be done but the accuracy is not very good.

                        Another problem with thermometers is that what they show can also vary depending on the location in the still head and mounting (heat conductivity) and so on.

                        If you want to use thermometer, by all means do it. Just remember that you need to find the correct cutpoint values for your still and thermometer. With parrots beak it is possible to give out generic cut points for a generic pot still, with thermometer there are too many variables to do that accurately.

                        Slainte, Riku


                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > OK, I'll correct meself. 57% ABV = 81.9C, 62% ABV = 81.4C. I read the wrong line in the table... That 81-82C would then be 65%-56% which would be the same as difference inbetween regular cut and very late cut.
                        >
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Parrot's beak is typically more accurate than your thermometer. As an example the ABV range of 57%-62% presents a change from 81C-82C in vapor temperature. Unless you have an accurate digital thermometer the parrot's beak is better in accuracy.
                        > >
                        > > As a negative aspect the heads components do mix and stay longer in the beak due to it's volume making your heads cut larger. On the other hand this may well contribute to the flavor of whisky, these things are very hard to judge correctly without extensive and detailed testing.
                        > >
                        > > Slainte, Riku
                        > >
                        > >
                      • Trid
                        ... Or in my case, my cheap ol thermometer is of unknown accuracy, but only displays to the whole degree. It s a handy tool to keep an eye on things as the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 3, 2009
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                          --- On Fri, 4/3/09, abbababbaccc <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The problem as I pointed out is the accuracy. Now a high
                          > quality digital thermometer works just as well as
                          > parrot's beak if you know the cut points. The problem is
                          > that cheap thermoprobes have 0.2C accuracy and cheap digital
                          > thermometers/probes sometimes loose their calibration (as
                          > has happened to me) or are calibrated wrong to begin with.
                          > With non-digital thermometers the cut can be done but the
                          > accuracy is not very good.

                          Or in my case, my cheap ol' thermometer is of unknown accuracy, but only displays to the whole degree. It's a handy tool to keep an eye on things as the rig is warming up and to have a ballpark idea of where I am in the run. In the end, the parrot's beak fine tunes that without having to invest in a more spendy thermometer. I still go primarily by taste/smell, but all the tools have their uses.

                          Trid
                          -the only guarantee we can make is that there are no absolutes
                        • abbababbaccc
                          Exactly the point. For a beginner parrots beak and ABV based cuts serve as extremely useful guide for getting the feel of that taste and smell. Once you figure
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 4, 2009
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                            Exactly the point. For a beginner parrots beak and ABV based cuts serve as extremely useful guide for getting the feel of that taste and smell. Once you figure it out and start making cuts to your taste you can do without the beak or thermometer. Well, for ending the distillation they still serve a purpose of course.

                            Slainte, Riku

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Or in my case, my cheap ol' thermometer is of unknown accuracy, but only displays to the whole degree. It's a handy tool to keep an eye on things as the rig is warming up and to have a ballpark idea of where I am in the run. In the end, the parrot's beak fine tunes that without having to invest in a more spendy thermometer. I still go primarily by taste/smell, but all the tools have their uses.
                            >
                            > Trid
                            > -the only guarantee we can make is that there are no absolutes
                            >
                          • Zapata Vive
                            Question on reading a hydrometer in a beak precisely. I admit I ve been wondering this for a long time, and just guessing. Do I read at the level of the top
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 6, 2009
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                              Question on reading a hydrometer in a beak precisely.  I admit I've been wondering this for a long time, and just guessing.  Do I read at the level of the top of the beak?  At the level of the bubble on top of the beak opening?  At the slightly higher spot that rises where it meets the glass of the hydrometer?  Personally I think that the top of the bubble, but not where it curves up where it meets the glass.  At least that is where I've been reading it, but don't know for sure.  It's only about 2% either way, and that fine of a cut I make by taste anyway, but always been curious.
                               
                              And just a note, I don't even put my thermometer in for flavored runs anymore.  Why bother?  I can guestimate what the hydrometer reads from well across the room by how much of it is sticking up out of the beak.  Have to be right on top of it to read the thermometer.
                               
                              Thermometer is used for making tails cut on neutral though.  It will rise before the ABV drops in my experience.
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Trid
                              Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:57 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Parrot's beak...


                              --- On Fri, 4/3/09, abbababbaccc <abbababbaccc@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                              >
                              > The problem as I pointed out is the accuracy. Now a high
                              > quality digital thermometer works just as well as
                              > parrot's beak if you know the cut points. The problem is
                              > that cheap thermoprobes have 0.2C accuracy and cheap digital
                              > thermometers/ probes sometimes loose their calibration (as
                              > has happened to me) or are calibrated wrong to begin with.
                              > With non-digital thermometers the cut can be done but the
                              > accuracy is not very good.

                              Or in my case, my cheap ol' thermometer is of unknown accuracy, but only displays to the whole degree. It's a handy tool to keep an eye on things as the rig is warming up and to have a ballpark idea of where I am in the run. In the end, the parrot's beak fine tunes that without having to invest in a more spendy thermometer. I still go primarily by taste/smell, but all the tools have their uses.

                              Trid
                              -the only guarantee we can make is that there are no absolutes

                            • Harry
                              ... That slightly curvy bit where liquid touches the shaft of the hydrometer (or thermometer) is known as the Meniscus, Always measure the lower surface level
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 6, 2009
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                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Question on reading a hydrometer in a beak precisely. I admit I've been wondering this for a long time, and just guessing. Do I read at the level of the top of the beak? At the level of the bubble on top of the beak opening? At the slightly higher spot that rises where it meets the glass of the hydrometer? Personally I think that the top of the bubble, but not where it curves up where it meets the glass. At least that is where I've been reading it, but don't know for sure. It's only about 2% either way, and that fine of a cut I make by taste anyway, but always been curious.
                                >
                                > And just a note, I don't even put my thermometer in for flavored runs anymore. Why bother? I can guestimate what the hydrometer reads from well across the room by how much of it is sticking up out of the beak. Have to be right on top of it to read the thermometer.
                                >
                                > Thermometer is used for making tails cut on neutral though. It will rise before the ABV drops in my experience.


                                That slightly curvy bit where liquid touches the shaft of the hydrometer (or thermometer) is known as the Meniscus, Always measure the lower surface level of the meniscus. See here for a fun thing to make...
                                http://www.ecawa.asn.au/home/jfuller/liquids/hydrometers.htm

                                Slainte!
                                regards Harry
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