Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

Expand Messages
  • jamesonbeam1
    Hi again ZB and Derek, Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
      Hi again ZB and Derek,

      Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep
      experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
      wine makers actually encourage MLF in their fermentations. I think from
      my experience, it works fantastic in apple wines and some of the lactic
      acid flavors should come across in a Calvados distillation. Going to
      try it this summer.

      Vino es Veritas,

      Jim aka Waldo.

      Note ZB: I have seen lactic acid sold in some wine making supply stores
      - maybe just adding that to a sour mash might work also???


      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Jim and Derek.
      >
      > Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
      > can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
      > the 2 malolactic cultures.
      >
      > http://store.homebrewheaven.com/
      >
      > "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
      >
      >
      > Convenient
      > to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a
      > culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic
      > bacteria. Click to see usage instructions.".....$13.95!!!!! (my
      exclamation points)"
      >
      > and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:
      >
      > "Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
      >
      >
      > Malolactic
      > culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to
      > juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur
      > dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg
      F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture
      > packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in
      > a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction
      > will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma
      > characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend
      > of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid
      > reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an
      > excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it's
      tolerance to
      > low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low
      cellar
      > temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3
      > months."...$7.00
      >
      > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
      experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
      >
      > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
      >
      >
      >
      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > From: derekhamlet@...
      > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
      > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning
      out a mash
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > >Hey ZB,
      >
      > >
      >
      > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
      >
      > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
      >
      > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
      >
      > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
      >
      > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
      >
      > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
      >
      > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
      >
      > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:
      >
      >
      >
      > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
      >
      > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
      >
      > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
      >
      > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
      >
      > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
      >
      > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
      >
      > is finished.
      >
      > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
      >
      > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
      >
      > 68-72 degrees F.
      >
      > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
      >
      > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
      >
      > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
      >
      > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
      >
      > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
      >
      > corners like cobwebs.
      >
      > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
      >
      > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
      >
      > to bottling.
      >
      > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
      >
      > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
      >
      > for distilling.
      >
      >
      >
      > Derek
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
      >
      http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
      >
    • Vini
      Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation to about 4,5%
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
        Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I
        pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation
        to about 4,5% alcohol it nearly cleared but then started to ferment
        again. A qualified guess is that this was the malolactic fermentation.
        The temp in the room was going up and that's how wine producers
        sometimes induce the ML fermentaion. The ML bacterias are already
        there but seems to prefer the raised temp.

        All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well. It
        reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the malic acid is felt
        more sour than the malic acid.

        In Pays de Auge (where the best calvados is made) they let the apple
        juice ferment and and is kept on its lees for several months to
        achieve the right taste to the final product. During this time it
        undergoes a ML fermentation.

        /Vini


        > Hi again ZB and Derek,
        >
        > Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep
        > experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
        > wine makers actually encourage MLF in their fermentations. I think from
        > my experience, it works fantastic in apple wines and some of the lactic
        > acid flavors should come across in a Calvados distillation. Going to
        > try it this summer.
        >
        > Vino es Veritas,
        >
        > Jim aka Waldo.
        >
        > Note ZB: I have seen lactic acid sold in some wine making supply stores
        > - maybe just adding that to a sour mash might work also???
        >
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Jim and Derek.
        > >
        > > Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
        > > can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
        > > the 2 malolactic cultures.
        > >
        > > http://store.homebrewheaven.com/
        > >
        > > "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
        > >
        > >
        > > Convenient
        > > to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a
        > > culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic
        > > bacteria. Click to see usage instructions.".....$13.95!!!!! (my
        > exclamation points)"
        > >
        > > and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:
        > >
        > > "Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
        > >
        > >
        > > Malolactic
        > > culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to
        > > juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur
        > > dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg
        > F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture
        > > packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in
        > > a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction
        > > will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma
        > > characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend
        > > of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid
        > > reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an
        > > excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it's
        > tolerance to
        > > low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low
        > cellar
        > > temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3
        > > months."...$7.00
        > >
        > > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
        > experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
        > >
        > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > > From: derekhamlet@
        > > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
        > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning
        > out a mash
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >Hey ZB,
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
        > >
        > > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
        > >
        > > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
        > >
        > > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
        > >
        > > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
        > >
        > > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
        > >
        > > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
        > >
        > > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
        > >
        > > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
        > >
        > > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
        > >
        > > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
        > >
        > > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
        > >
        > > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
        > >
        > > is finished.
        > >
        > > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
        > >
        > > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
        > >
        > > 68-72 degrees F.
        > >
        > > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
        > >
        > > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
        > >
        > > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
        > >
        > > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
        > >
        > > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
        > >
        > > corners like cobwebs.
        > >
        > > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
        > >
        > > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
        > >
        > > to bottling.
        > >
        > > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
        > >
        > > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
        > >
        > > for distilling.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Derek
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > _________________________________________________________________
        > > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
        > >
        > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
        > >
        >
      • Zapata Vive
        My initial thoughts were that it shouldn t matter for a distilled beverage as neither lactic nor malic acids are volatile. But, then I thought about what else
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
          My initial thoughts were that it shouldn't matter for a distilled beverage as neither lactic nor malic acids are volatile.  But, then I thought about what else the acids do, like form esters with alcohols.  These are usually more volatile, so maybe they would come across.
           
          Trying to imagine what the taste differences would be.  So I thought I'd compare things like ethyl malate vs. ethyl lactate.  Unfortunately I come up short on the malates.  About all I can find is a list of malates found in some small berry which are believed to be bitter tasting.   Unfortunately I can't find any info on the corresponding lactates.
           
          In fact, about all I can come up with is that ethyl lactate is "is mild, buttery, creamy, with hints of fruit and coconut." (wikipedia).  Ethyl lactate has a pretty high BP, so I'm not sure much if any of it would come over in the distillate.
           
          Malolactic fermentation can producer diacetyl (buttered popcorn flavor, sometimes butterscotch like).  Diacetyl's BP is 88*C, so it is likely that it could distill over.
           
          OK, I'm coming up pretty short.  But I find that lactic acid can form lactones, I recognize that word.  Lactones are found naturally in oak trees and have a flavor similar to whisky, or coconuts, depending on which account you take.  Strange, whiskey isn't very coconut to me.  Seems like most lactones have BP's well in excess of 100*C, so probably little would come over in the distillate.
           
          So, I didn't find anything that really seems like it would come over in the distillate other than diacetyl.  Maybe this would be ok in a distillate, but I'm not sure. 
           
          I just kinda took notes while doing a bunch of googling, and thought I'd share in case anybody else has any thoughts or wants to take it from there.  I'd be willing to try with a free wash, but fruits and juices are rather expensive, so I think I'll hold off on distilling a malolactic fermentation until we have some idea of what flavors specifically migth come over.  Notes of whiskey, oak, coconut, and butter do sound nice in a cider though, I think I'll definite reserve some of my apple wash for a ML fermentation and save it as a wine...
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:26 PM
          Subject: RE: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

          Jim and Derek.

          Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
          can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
          the 2 malolactic cultures.

          http://store. homebrewheaven. com/

          "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
          Convenient to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic bacteria. Click to see usage instructions. ".....$13. 95!!!!! (my exclamation points)"

          and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:

          "
          Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
          Malolactic culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it’s tolerance to low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low cellar temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3 months."...$ 7.00

          Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.

          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




          To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
          From: derekhamlet@ shaw.ca
          Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

          At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:

          >Hey ZB,
          >
          >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
          >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
          >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
          >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
          >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
          >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
          >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
          >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:

          Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
          softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
          Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
          avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
          Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
          starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
          is finished.
          Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
          months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
          68-72 degrees F.
          Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
          Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
          it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
          whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
          they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
          corners like cobwebs.
          For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
          very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
          to bottling.
          I then store them with reds and whatnot.
          I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
          for distilling.

          Derek




          Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.

        • Zapata Vive
          That is useful info, thanks. Maybe that s all the recommendation I need to try it with my apple wash, other than the months part, I hate waiting... ... From:
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
            That is useful info, thanks.  Maybe that's all the recommendation I need to try it with my apple wash, other than the months part, I hate waiting...
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Vini
            Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 4:15 PM
            Subject: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

            Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I
            pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation
            to about 4,5% alcohol it nearly cleared but then started to ferment
            again. A qualified guess is that this was the malolactic fermentation.
            The temp in the room was going up and that's how wine producers
            sometimes induce the ML fermentaion. The ML bacterias are already
            there but seems to prefer the raised temp.

            All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well. It
            reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the malic acid is felt
            more sour than the malic acid.

            In Pays de Auge (where the best calvados is made) they let the apple
            juice ferment and and is kept on its lees for several months to
            achieve the right taste to the final product. During this time it
            undergoes a ML fermentation.

            /Vini

            > Hi again ZB and Derek,
            >
            > Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep
            > experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
            > wine makers actually encourage MLF in their fermentations. I think from
            > my experience, it works fantastic in apple wines and some of the lactic
            > acid flavors should come across in a Calvados distillation. Going to
            > try it this summer.
            >
            > Vino es Veritas,
            >
            > Jim aka Waldo.
            >
            > Note ZB: I have seen lactic acid sold in some wine making supply stores
            > - maybe just adding that to a sour mash might work also???
            >
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@ > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Jim and Derek.
            > >
            > > Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
            > > can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
            > > the 2 malolactic cultures.
            > >
            > > http://store. homebrewheaven. com/
            > >
            > > "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
            > >
            > >
            > > Convenient
            > > to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a
            > > culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic
            > > bacteria. Click to see usage instructions. ".....$13. 95!!!!! (my
            > exclamation points)"
            > >
            > > and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:
            > >
            > > "Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
            > >
            > >
            > > Malolactic
            > > culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to
            > > juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur
            > > dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg
            > F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture
            > > packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in
            > > a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction
            > > will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma
            > > characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend
            > > of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid
            > > reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an
            > > excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it's
            > tolerance to
            > > low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low
            > cellar
            > > temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3
            > > months."...$ 7.00
            > >
            > > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
            > experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
            > >
            > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
            > > From: derekhamlet@
            > > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
            > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning
            > out a mash
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >Hey ZB,
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
            > >
            > > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
            > >
            > > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
            > >
            > > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
            > >
            > > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
            > >
            > > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
            > >
            > > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
            > >
            > > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
            > >
            > > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
            > >
            > > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
            > >
            > > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
            > >
            > > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
            > >
            > > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
            > >
            > > is finished.
            > >
            > > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
            > >
            > > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
            > >
            > > 68-72 degrees F.
            > >
            > > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
            > >
            > > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
            > >
            > > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
            > >
            > > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
            > >
            > > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
            > >
            > > corners like cobwebs.
            > >
            > > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
            > >
            > > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
            > >
            > > to bottling.
            > >
            > > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
            > >
            > > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
            > >
            > > for distilling.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Derek
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            > > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
            > >
            > http://windowslive. com/explore? ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ t2_allup_ explore_012009
            > >
            >

          • gff_stwrt
            Hi, folks, Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a byproduct of
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
              Hi, folks,

              Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast
              used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
              byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making operation.

              A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand, I believe.

              It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might cost
              (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
              Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
              laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces marxianus,
              sometimes known as k. fragilis).

              But, THAT is expensive!

              Regards,

              The Baker




              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi again ZB and Derek,
              >
              > Your right!! - that stuff is expensive...

              SNIP

              >
              > Jim aka Waldo.
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@>
              wrote:

              SNIP

              ...$7.00
              > >
              > > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
              > experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
              > >
              > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: derekhamlet@
              > > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
              > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re:
              Spinning
              > out a mash
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > >Hey ZB,
              > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
              > >
              > > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
              > >
              > > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
              > >
              > > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
              > >
              > > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
              > >
              > > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that
              i
              > >
              > > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
              > >
              > > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of
              LAB:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
              > >
              > > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
              > >
              > > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try
              and
              > >
              > > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
              > >
              > > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
              > >
              > > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary
              fermentation
              > >
              > > is finished.
              > >
              > > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
              > >
              > > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
              > >
              > > 68-72 degrees F.
              > >
              > > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
              > >
              > > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance
              that
              > >
              > > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
              > >
              > > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
              > >
              > > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
              > >
              > > corners like cobwebs.
              > >
              > > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my
              secondaries
              > >
              > > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right
              down
              > >
              > > to bottling.
              > >
              > > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
              > >
              > > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
              > >
              > > for distilling.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Derek
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > _________________________________________________________________
              > > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
              > >
              > http://windowslive.com/explore?
              ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
              > >
              >
            • gff_stwrt
              ... Hi, vini, It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it yet I
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Vini" <wineifera@...> wrote:
                >
                > Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I
                > pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation
                > to about 4,5% alcohol it nearly cleared but then started to ferment
                > again. A qualified guess is that this was the malolactic fermentation.
                > The temp in the room was going up and that's how wine producers
                > sometimes induce the ML fermentation. The ML bacterias are already
                > there but seems to prefer the raised temp.
                >
                > All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well. It
                > reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the MALIC acid is felt
                > more sour than the MALIC acid.
                >
                Hi, vini,

                It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and
                since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it
                yet I wonder if you could change the word that is wrong and post it
                again?

                Thanks a lot

                The Baker
              • burrows206
                Hi Baker, I found this on the internet http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf only read a couple of
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                  Hi Baker,
                   I found this on the internet
                   http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf
                  only read a couple of pages and the mind went into information over
                  load (in other words lost track too many big incomprehensible words)
                  thought it might be useful anyway so I'm posting it
                  Geoff
                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi, folks,
                  >
                  > Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast
                  > used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                  > byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making operation.
                  >
                  > A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand, I believe.
                  >
                  > It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might cost
                  > (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                  > Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                  > laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces marxianus,
                  > sometimes known as k. fragilis).
                  >
                  > But, THAT is expensive!
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > The Baker
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • jamesonbeam1
                  Hi Baker, Believe Vini ment to say: It reduces the perceived acidity in the wine sinc the MALIC acid is felt more sour then the LACTIC acid. A malolactic
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                    Hi Baker,

                    Believe Vini ment to say: " It reduces the perceived acidity in the wine
                    sinc the MALIC acid is felt more sour then the LACTIC acid."

                    A malolactic fermentation (MLF) transforms malic acid through lactic
                    acid bacteria (LAB) into Lacitc acid, a much smoother, less bitter acid.

                    Vino es Veritas,

                    Jim aka Waldo.


                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Vini" wineifera@ wrote:

                    > > All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well.
                    It
                    > > reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the MALIC acid is
                    felt
                    > > more sour than the MALIC acid.
                    > >
                    > Hi, vini,
                    >
                    > It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and
                    > since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it
                    > yet I wonder if you could change the word that is wrong and post it
                    > again?
                    >
                    > Thanks a lot
                    >
                    > The Baker
                    >
                  • KM Services
                    Yes Baker, Fonterra in New Zealand produce fuel and drinkable ethanol from whey which is used in a variety of products see this link :
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009

                      Yes Baker,

                      Fonterra in New Zealand produce fuel and drinkable ethanol from whey which is used in a variety of products    see this link : http://energy.massey.ac.nz/Conference%202006/Ethanol%20from%20Whey%20-%20A%20Gibson.pdf

                       

                       

                      This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure...

                      Cheers

                      Ken Mc

                       


                      From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of gff_stwrt
                      Sent: Wednesday, 4 February 2009 11:02 p.m.
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

                       

                      Hi, folks,

                      Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast
                      used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                      byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making operation.

                      A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand , I believe.

                      It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might cost
                      (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                      Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                      laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces marxianus,
                      sometimes known as k. fragilis).

                      But, THAT is expensive!

                      Regards,

                      The Baker

                    • Vini
                      I now see I made this post without too much proofreading (actually due to a glass or two of some slightly over oaked calvados - but with aeration for six
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                        I now see I made this post without too much proofreading (actually due
                        to a glass or two of some slightly over oaked calvados - but with
                        aeration for six months I hope it will marry well).

                        Anyway, it should of course be:
                        Malic acid is felt more acid than lactic acid.

                        There's also an 'and' that should be an 'it' further down.

                        I wonder if this necessarily means that MA has a lower pH than LA?

                        And thank you, Jim/Waldo for you inerpreting/correcting me!

                        /Vini
                        Not a native speaker of this language :)


                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Baker,
                        >
                        > Believe Vini ment to say: " It reduces the perceived acidity in the wine
                        > sinc the MALIC acid is felt more sour then the LACTIC acid."
                        >
                        > A malolactic fermentation (MLF) transforms malic acid through lactic
                        > acid bacteria (LAB) into Lacitc acid, a much smoother, less bitter acid.
                        >
                        > Vino es Veritas,
                        >
                        > Jim aka Waldo.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Vini" wineifera@ wrote:
                        >
                        > > > All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well.
                        > It
                        > > > reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the MALIC acid is
                        > felt
                        > > > more sour than the MALIC acid.
                        > > >
                        > > Hi, vini,
                        > >
                        > > It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and
                        > > since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it
                        > > yet I wonder if you could change the word that is wrong and post it
                        > > again?
                        > >
                        > > Thanks a lot
                        > >
                        > > The Baker
                        > >
                        >
                      • gff_stwrt
                        Jeff, Thanks for the information, I ve saved it to study in my spare time! I guess what I need is a mate working in a whey distillery who could (without
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                          Jeff,

                          Thanks for the information, I've saved it to study in my spare time!

                          I guess what I need is a mate working in a whey distillery who could
                          (without breaking any rules) let me have a bit of this stuff to try.

                          Anyway, I have been busy with fruit lately and have a lot to distill.

                          Regards,

                          The Baker

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206" <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Baker,
                          > I found this on the internet
                          > http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf
                          > <http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf>
                          > only read a couple of pages and the mind went into information over
                          > load (in other words lost track too many big incomprehensible words)
                          > thought it might be useful anyway so I'm posting it
                          > Geoff
                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi, folks,
                          > >
                          > > Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special
                          yeast
                          > > used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                          > > byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making
                          operation.
                          > >
                          > > A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand, I believe.
                          > >
                          > > It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might
                          cost
                          > > (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                          > > Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                          > > laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces
                          marxianus,
                          > > sometimes known as k. fragilis).
                          > >
                          > > But, THAT is expensive!
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > >
                          > > The Baker
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.