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Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

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  • Derek Hamlet
    ... Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines. Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples.
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 2 11:57 AM
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      At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:

      >Hey ZB,
      >
      >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
      >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
      >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
      >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
      >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
      >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
      >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
      >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:

      Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
      softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
      Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
      avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
      Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
      starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
      is finished.
      Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
      months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
      68-72 degrees F.
      Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
      Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
      it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
      whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
      they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
      corners like cobwebs.
      For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
      very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
      to bottling.
      I then store them with reds and whatnot.
      I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
      for distilling.


      Derek
    • Robert Hubble
      Jim and Derek. Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I can t give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of the 2 malolactic cultures.
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 2 12:26 PM
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        Jim and Derek.

        Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
        can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
        the 2 malolactic cultures.

        http://store.homebrewheaven.com/

        "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
        Convenient to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic bacteria. Click to see usage instructions.".....$13.95!!!!! (my exclamation points)"

        and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:

        "
        Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
        Malolactic culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it’s tolerance to low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low cellar temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3 months."...$7.00

        Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        From: derekhamlet@...
        Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

        At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:

        >Hey ZB,
        >
        >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
        >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
        >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
        >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
        >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
        >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
        >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
        >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:

        Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
        softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
        Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
        avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
        Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
        starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
        is finished.
        Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
        months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
        68-72 degrees F.
        Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
        Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
        it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
        whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
        they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
        corners like cobwebs.
        For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
        very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
        to bottling.
        I then store them with reds and whatnot.
        I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
        for distilling.

        Derek




        Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.
      • jamesonbeam1
        Hi again ZB and Derek, Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 2 12:52 PM
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          Hi again ZB and Derek,

          Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep
          experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
          wine makers actually encourage MLF in their fermentations. I think from
          my experience, it works fantastic in apple wines and some of the lactic
          acid flavors should come across in a Calvados distillation. Going to
          try it this summer.

          Vino es Veritas,

          Jim aka Waldo.

          Note ZB: I have seen lactic acid sold in some wine making supply stores
          - maybe just adding that to a sour mash might work also???


          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Jim and Derek.
          >
          > Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
          > can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
          > the 2 malolactic cultures.
          >
          > http://store.homebrewheaven.com/
          >
          > "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
          >
          >
          > Convenient
          > to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a
          > culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic
          > bacteria. Click to see usage instructions.".....$13.95!!!!! (my
          exclamation points)"
          >
          > and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:
          >
          > "Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
          >
          >
          > Malolactic
          > culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to
          > juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur
          > dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg
          F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture
          > packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in
          > a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction
          > will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma
          > characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend
          > of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid
          > reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an
          > excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it's
          tolerance to
          > low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low
          cellar
          > temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3
          > months."...$7.00
          >
          > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
          experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
          >
          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
          >
          >
          >
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > From: derekhamlet@...
          > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
          > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning
          out a mash
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > >Hey ZB,
          >
          > >
          >
          > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
          >
          > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
          >
          > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
          >
          > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
          >
          > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
          >
          > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
          >
          > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
          >
          > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:
          >
          >
          >
          > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
          >
          > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
          >
          > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
          >
          > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
          >
          > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
          >
          > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
          >
          > is finished.
          >
          > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
          >
          > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
          >
          > 68-72 degrees F.
          >
          > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
          >
          > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
          >
          > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
          >
          > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
          >
          > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
          >
          > corners like cobwebs.
          >
          > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
          >
          > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
          >
          > to bottling.
          >
          > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
          >
          > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
          >
          > for distilling.
          >
          >
          >
          > Derek
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
          >
          http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
          >
        • Vini
          Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation to about 4,5%
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 2 1:15 PM
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            Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I
            pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation
            to about 4,5% alcohol it nearly cleared but then started to ferment
            again. A qualified guess is that this was the malolactic fermentation.
            The temp in the room was going up and that's how wine producers
            sometimes induce the ML fermentaion. The ML bacterias are already
            there but seems to prefer the raised temp.

            All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well. It
            reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the malic acid is felt
            more sour than the malic acid.

            In Pays de Auge (where the best calvados is made) they let the apple
            juice ferment and and is kept on its lees for several months to
            achieve the right taste to the final product. During this time it
            undergoes a ML fermentation.

            /Vini


            > Hi again ZB and Derek,
            >
            > Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep
            > experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
            > wine makers actually encourage MLF in their fermentations. I think from
            > my experience, it works fantastic in apple wines and some of the lactic
            > acid flavors should come across in a Calvados distillation. Going to
            > try it this summer.
            >
            > Vino es Veritas,
            >
            > Jim aka Waldo.
            >
            > Note ZB: I have seen lactic acid sold in some wine making supply stores
            > - maybe just adding that to a sour mash might work also???
            >
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Jim and Derek.
            > >
            > > Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
            > > can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
            > > the 2 malolactic cultures.
            > >
            > > http://store.homebrewheaven.com/
            > >
            > > "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
            > >
            > >
            > > Convenient
            > > to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a
            > > culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic
            > > bacteria. Click to see usage instructions.".....$13.95!!!!! (my
            > exclamation points)"
            > >
            > > and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:
            > >
            > > "Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
            > >
            > >
            > > Malolactic
            > > culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to
            > > juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur
            > > dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg
            > F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture
            > > packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in
            > > a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction
            > > will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma
            > > characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend
            > > of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid
            > > reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an
            > > excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it's
            > tolerance to
            > > low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low
            > cellar
            > > temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3
            > > months."...$7.00
            > >
            > > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
            > experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
            > >
            > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > > From: derekhamlet@
            > > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
            > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning
            > out a mash
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >Hey ZB,
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
            > >
            > > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
            > >
            > > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
            > >
            > > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
            > >
            > > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
            > >
            > > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
            > >
            > > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
            > >
            > > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
            > >
            > > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
            > >
            > > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
            > >
            > > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
            > >
            > > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
            > >
            > > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
            > >
            > > is finished.
            > >
            > > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
            > >
            > > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
            > >
            > > 68-72 degrees F.
            > >
            > > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
            > >
            > > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
            > >
            > > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
            > >
            > > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
            > >
            > > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
            > >
            > > corners like cobwebs.
            > >
            > > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
            > >
            > > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
            > >
            > > to bottling.
            > >
            > > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
            > >
            > > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
            > >
            > > for distilling.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Derek
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
            > >
            > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
            > >
            >
          • Zapata Vive
            My initial thoughts were that it shouldn t matter for a distilled beverage as neither lactic nor malic acids are volatile. But, then I thought about what else
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 2 1:52 PM
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              My initial thoughts were that it shouldn't matter for a distilled beverage as neither lactic nor malic acids are volatile.  But, then I thought about what else the acids do, like form esters with alcohols.  These are usually more volatile, so maybe they would come across.
               
              Trying to imagine what the taste differences would be.  So I thought I'd compare things like ethyl malate vs. ethyl lactate.  Unfortunately I come up short on the malates.  About all I can find is a list of malates found in some small berry which are believed to be bitter tasting.   Unfortunately I can't find any info on the corresponding lactates.
               
              In fact, about all I can come up with is that ethyl lactate is "is mild, buttery, creamy, with hints of fruit and coconut." (wikipedia).  Ethyl lactate has a pretty high BP, so I'm not sure much if any of it would come over in the distillate.
               
              Malolactic fermentation can producer diacetyl (buttered popcorn flavor, sometimes butterscotch like).  Diacetyl's BP is 88*C, so it is likely that it could distill over.
               
              OK, I'm coming up pretty short.  But I find that lactic acid can form lactones, I recognize that word.  Lactones are found naturally in oak trees and have a flavor similar to whisky, or coconuts, depending on which account you take.  Strange, whiskey isn't very coconut to me.  Seems like most lactones have BP's well in excess of 100*C, so probably little would come over in the distillate.
               
              So, I didn't find anything that really seems like it would come over in the distillate other than diacetyl.  Maybe this would be ok in a distillate, but I'm not sure. 
               
              I just kinda took notes while doing a bunch of googling, and thought I'd share in case anybody else has any thoughts or wants to take it from there.  I'd be willing to try with a free wash, but fruits and juices are rather expensive, so I think I'll hold off on distilling a malolactic fermentation until we have some idea of what flavors specifically migth come over.  Notes of whiskey, oak, coconut, and butter do sound nice in a cider though, I think I'll definite reserve some of my apple wash for a ML fermentation and save it as a wine...
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:26 PM
              Subject: RE: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

              Jim and Derek.

              Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
              can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
              the 2 malolactic cultures.

              http://store. homebrewheaven. com/

              "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
              Convenient to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic bacteria. Click to see usage instructions. ".....$13. 95!!!!! (my exclamation points)"

              and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:

              "
              Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
              Malolactic culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it’s tolerance to low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low cellar temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3 months."...$ 7.00

              Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




              To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
              From: derekhamlet@ shaw.ca
              Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

              At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:

              >Hey ZB,
              >
              >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
              >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
              >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
              >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
              >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
              >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
              >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
              >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:

              Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
              softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
              Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
              avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
              Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
              starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
              is finished.
              Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
              months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
              68-72 degrees F.
              Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
              Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
              it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
              whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
              they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
              corners like cobwebs.
              For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
              very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
              to bottling.
              I then store them with reds and whatnot.
              I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
              for distilling.

              Derek




              Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.

            • Zapata Vive
              That is useful info, thanks. Maybe that s all the recommendation I need to try it with my apple wash, other than the months part, I hate waiting... ... From:
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 2 1:55 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                That is useful info, thanks.  Maybe that's all the recommendation I need to try it with my apple wash, other than the months part, I hate waiting...
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Vini
                Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 4:15 PM
                Subject: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

                Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I
                pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation
                to about 4,5% alcohol it nearly cleared but then started to ferment
                again. A qualified guess is that this was the malolactic fermentation.
                The temp in the room was going up and that's how wine producers
                sometimes induce the ML fermentaion. The ML bacterias are already
                there but seems to prefer the raised temp.

                All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well. It
                reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the malic acid is felt
                more sour than the malic acid.

                In Pays de Auge (where the best calvados is made) they let the apple
                juice ferment and and is kept on its lees for several months to
                achieve the right taste to the final product. During this time it
                undergoes a ML fermentation.

                /Vini

                > Hi again ZB and Derek,
                >
                > Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep
                > experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
                > wine makers actually encourage MLF in their fermentations. I think from
                > my experience, it works fantastic in apple wines and some of the lactic
                > acid flavors should come across in a Calvados distillation. Going to
                > try it this summer.
                >
                > Vino es Veritas,
                >
                > Jim aka Waldo.
                >
                > Note ZB: I have seen lactic acid sold in some wine making supply stores
                > - maybe just adding that to a sour mash might work also???
                >
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@ > wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Jim and Derek.
                > >
                > > Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
                > > can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
                > > the 2 malolactic cultures.
                > >
                > > http://store. homebrewheaven. com/
                > >
                > > "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
                > >
                > >
                > > Convenient
                > > to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a
                > > culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic
                > > bacteria. Click to see usage instructions. ".....$13. 95!!!!! (my
                > exclamation points)"
                > >
                > > and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:
                > >
                > > "Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
                > >
                > >
                > > Malolactic
                > > culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to
                > > juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur
                > > dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg
                > F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture
                > > packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in
                > > a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction
                > > will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma
                > > characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend
                > > of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid
                > > reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an
                > > excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it's
                > tolerance to
                > > low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low
                > cellar
                > > temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3
                > > months."...$ 7.00
                > >
                > > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
                > experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
                > >
                > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                > > From: derekhamlet@
                > > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
                > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning
                > out a mash
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > >Hey ZB,
                > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
                > >
                > > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
                > >
                > > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
                > >
                > > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
                > >
                > > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
                > >
                > > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
                > >
                > > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
                > >
                > > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
                > >
                > > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
                > >
                > > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
                > >
                > > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
                > >
                > > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
                > >
                > > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
                > >
                > > is finished.
                > >
                > > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
                > >
                > > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
                > >
                > > 68-72 degrees F.
                > >
                > > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
                > >
                > > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
                > >
                > > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
                > >
                > > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
                > >
                > > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
                > >
                > > corners like cobwebs.
                > >
                > > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
                > >
                > > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
                > >
                > > to bottling.
                > >
                > > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
                > >
                > > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
                > >
                > > for distilling.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Derek
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                > > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                > >
                > http://windowslive. com/explore? ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ t2_allup_ explore_012009
                > >
                >

              • gff_stwrt
                Hi, folks, Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a byproduct of
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 4 2:01 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi, folks,

                  Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast
                  used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                  byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making operation.

                  A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand, I believe.

                  It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might cost
                  (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                  Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                  laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces marxianus,
                  sometimes known as k. fragilis).

                  But, THAT is expensive!

                  Regards,

                  The Baker




                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi again ZB and Derek,
                  >
                  > Your right!! - that stuff is expensive...

                  SNIP

                  >
                  > Jim aka Waldo.
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@>
                  wrote:

                  SNIP

                  ...$7.00
                  > >
                  > > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
                  > experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
                  > >
                  > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > > From: derekhamlet@
                  > > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
                  > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re:
                  Spinning
                  > out a mash
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >Hey ZB,
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
                  > >
                  > > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
                  > >
                  > > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
                  > >
                  > > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
                  > >
                  > > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
                  > >
                  > > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that
                  i
                  > >
                  > > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
                  > >
                  > > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of
                  LAB:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
                  > >
                  > > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
                  > >
                  > > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try
                  and
                  > >
                  > > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
                  > >
                  > > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
                  > >
                  > > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary
                  fermentation
                  > >
                  > > is finished.
                  > >
                  > > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
                  > >
                  > > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
                  > >
                  > > 68-72 degrees F.
                  > >
                  > > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
                  > >
                  > > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance
                  that
                  > >
                  > > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
                  > >
                  > > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
                  > >
                  > > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
                  > >
                  > > corners like cobwebs.
                  > >
                  > > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my
                  secondaries
                  > >
                  > > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right
                  down
                  > >
                  > > to bottling.
                  > >
                  > > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
                  > >
                  > > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
                  > >
                  > > for distilling.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Derek
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _________________________________________________________________
                  > > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                  > >
                  > http://windowslive.com/explore?
                  ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
                  > >
                  >
                • gff_stwrt
                  ... Hi, vini, It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it yet I
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 4 2:13 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Vini" <wineifera@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I
                    > pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation
                    > to about 4,5% alcohol it nearly cleared but then started to ferment
                    > again. A qualified guess is that this was the malolactic fermentation.
                    > The temp in the room was going up and that's how wine producers
                    > sometimes induce the ML fermentation. The ML bacterias are already
                    > there but seems to prefer the raised temp.
                    >
                    > All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well. It
                    > reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the MALIC acid is felt
                    > more sour than the MALIC acid.
                    >
                    Hi, vini,

                    It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and
                    since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it
                    yet I wonder if you could change the word that is wrong and post it
                    again?

                    Thanks a lot

                    The Baker
                  • burrows206
                    Hi Baker, I found this on the internet http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf only read a couple of
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 4 3:24 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Baker,
                       I found this on the internet
                       http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf
                      only read a couple of pages and the mind went into information over
                      load (in other words lost track too many big incomprehensible words)
                      thought it might be useful anyway so I'm posting it
                      Geoff
                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi, folks,
                      >
                      > Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast
                      > used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                      > byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making operation.
                      >
                      > A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand, I believe.
                      >
                      > It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might cost
                      > (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                      > Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                      > laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces marxianus,
                      > sometimes known as k. fragilis).
                      >
                      > But, THAT is expensive!
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > The Baker
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • jamesonbeam1
                      Hi Baker, Believe Vini ment to say: It reduces the perceived acidity in the wine sinc the MALIC acid is felt more sour then the LACTIC acid. A malolactic
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 4 6:10 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Baker,

                        Believe Vini ment to say: " It reduces the perceived acidity in the wine
                        sinc the MALIC acid is felt more sour then the LACTIC acid."

                        A malolactic fermentation (MLF) transforms malic acid through lactic
                        acid bacteria (LAB) into Lacitc acid, a much smoother, less bitter acid.

                        Vino es Veritas,

                        Jim aka Waldo.


                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Vini" wineifera@ wrote:

                        > > All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well.
                        It
                        > > reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the MALIC acid is
                        felt
                        > > more sour than the MALIC acid.
                        > >
                        > Hi, vini,
                        >
                        > It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and
                        > since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it
                        > yet I wonder if you could change the word that is wrong and post it
                        > again?
                        >
                        > Thanks a lot
                        >
                        > The Baker
                        >
                      • KM Services
                        Yes Baker, Fonterra in New Zealand produce fuel and drinkable ethanol from whey which is used in a variety of products see this link :
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 4 9:51 AM
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Yes Baker,

                          Fonterra in New Zealand produce fuel and drinkable ethanol from whey which is used in a variety of products    see this link : http://energy.massey.ac.nz/Conference%202006/Ethanol%20from%20Whey%20-%20A%20Gibson.pdf

                           

                           

                          This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure...

                          Cheers

                          Ken Mc

                           


                          From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of gff_stwrt
                          Sent: Wednesday, 4 February 2009 11:02 p.m.
                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

                           

                          Hi, folks,

                          Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast
                          used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                          byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making operation.

                          A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand , I believe.

                          It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might cost
                          (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                          Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                          laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces marxianus,
                          sometimes known as k. fragilis).

                          But, THAT is expensive!

                          Regards,

                          The Baker

                        • Vini
                          I now see I made this post without too much proofreading (actually due to a glass or two of some slightly over oaked calvados - but with aeration for six
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 4 10:18 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I now see I made this post without too much proofreading (actually due
                            to a glass or two of some slightly over oaked calvados - but with
                            aeration for six months I hope it will marry well).

                            Anyway, it should of course be:
                            Malic acid is felt more acid than lactic acid.

                            There's also an 'and' that should be an 'it' further down.

                            I wonder if this necessarily means that MA has a lower pH than LA?

                            And thank you, Jim/Waldo for you inerpreting/correcting me!

                            /Vini
                            Not a native speaker of this language :)


                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Baker,
                            >
                            > Believe Vini ment to say: " It reduces the perceived acidity in the wine
                            > sinc the MALIC acid is felt more sour then the LACTIC acid."
                            >
                            > A malolactic fermentation (MLF) transforms malic acid through lactic
                            > acid bacteria (LAB) into Lacitc acid, a much smoother, less bitter acid.
                            >
                            > Vino es Veritas,
                            >
                            > Jim aka Waldo.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Vini" wineifera@ wrote:
                            >
                            > > > All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well.
                            > It
                            > > > reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the MALIC acid is
                            > felt
                            > > > more sour than the MALIC acid.
                            > > >
                            > > Hi, vini,
                            > >
                            > > It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and
                            > > since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it
                            > > yet I wonder if you could change the word that is wrong and post it
                            > > again?
                            > >
                            > > Thanks a lot
                            > >
                            > > The Baker
                            > >
                            >
                          • gff_stwrt
                            Jeff, Thanks for the information, I ve saved it to study in my spare time! I guess what I need is a mate working in a whey distillery who could (without
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 4 5:53 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Jeff,

                              Thanks for the information, I've saved it to study in my spare time!

                              I guess what I need is a mate working in a whey distillery who could
                              (without breaking any rules) let me have a bit of this stuff to try.

                              Anyway, I have been busy with fruit lately and have a lot to distill.

                              Regards,

                              The Baker

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206" <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Baker,
                              > I found this on the internet
                              > http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf
                              > <http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf>
                              > only read a couple of pages and the mind went into information over
                              > load (in other words lost track too many big incomprehensible words)
                              > thought it might be useful anyway so I'm posting it
                              > Geoff
                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi, folks,
                              > >
                              > > Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special
                              yeast
                              > > used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                              > > byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making
                              operation.
                              > >
                              > > A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand, I believe.
                              > >
                              > > It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might
                              cost
                              > > (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                              > > Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                              > > laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces
                              marxianus,
                              > > sometimes known as k. fragilis).
                              > >
                              > > But, THAT is expensive!
                              > >
                              > > Regards,
                              > >
                              > > The Baker
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
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