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Spinning out a mash

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  • Rob Macrobert
    Hey ZB, I ve finally done my first all grain mash (huh, 20 years in and I just start now?) and was wondering how to drain the grains, so I went for a stroll
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 1, 2009
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      Hey ZB,

      I've finally done my  first all grain mash  (huh, 20 years in and I just start now?) and was wondering how to drain the grains, so I went for a stroll thru the housewares section of the local discount mall and found an interesting little item called a salad spinner.

      Or, at least, interesting to me as I've never even heard of this thing before.

      The one that I picked up has a geared crank in the lid, holds a comfortable 2.5 gals of corn, and after modding it for a drain, works well. I spun out 10 gal of wet corn mash in about 15 min.

      It's alot smaller than a washing machine, and since it is a manual crank you can tell the wife you're trying to keep fit, and not  involved in anything naughty.

      ATB,

      Robbie Mac
      Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
      

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    • Robert Hubble
      Hi Rob, I *love* it, and I don t know why I never thought of it, and I ve heard of salad spinners (even seen a couple). Does it get the grain pretty dry?
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 1, 2009
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        Hi Rob,

        I *love* it, and I don't know why I never thought of it, and
        I've heard of salad spinners (even seen a couple). Does it get
        the grain pretty dry?

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        From: macrobert@...
        Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:50:08 -0500
        Subject: [Distillers] Spinning out a mash


        Hey ZB,

        I've finally done my  first all grain mash  (huh, 20 years in and I just start now?) and was wondering how to drain the grains, so I went for a stroll thru the housewares section of the local discount mall and found an interesting little item called a salad spinner.

        Or, at least, interesting to me as I've never even heard of this thing before.

        The one that I picked up has a geared crank in the lid, holds a comfortable 2.5 gals of corn, and after modding it for a drain, works well. I spun out 10 gal of wet corn mash in about 15 min.

        It's alot smaller than a washing machine, and since it is a manual crank you can tell the wife you're trying to keep fit, and not  involved in anything naughty.

        ATB,

        Robbie Mac
        Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....

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      • jamesonbeam1
        ZB, Might want to follow James lead on the washing machine idea and put some screening in the spinner part, since the ones I used to sell as a dept. mgr. in
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 1, 2009
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          ZB,

          Might want to follow James lead on the washing machine idea and put some
          screening in the spinner part, since the ones I used to sell as a dept.
          mgr. in gourmet cooking had long wide slits in em. Also thinking that
          theres not much space to collect the liquids so you might want to
          connect a tube on the bottom to your colletion jug.

          Vino es Veritas,

          Jim aka Waldo.

          PS. Thanks alot for the info on Sherm's souring method. Haven't got a
          chance to read much of it, but sounds similar to a malolactic
          fermentation, which changes the tart acids in apples into a smooth,
          buttery tasing wine that I used to get alot of when making apple wines.


          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Rob,
          >
          > I *love* it, and I don't know why I never thought of it, and
          > I've heard of salad spinners (even seen a couple). Does it get
          > the grain pretty dry?
          >
          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
          >
          >
          >
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > From: macrobert@...
          > Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:50:08 -0500
          > Subject: [Distillers] Spinning out a mash
          >
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          > Hey ZB,I've finally done my first all grain mash (huh, 20 years in and
          I just start now?)
          > and was wondering how to drain the grains, so I went for a stroll thru
          the housewares section of the local discount mall and found an
          interesting little item called a salad spinner.Or, at least, interesting
          to me as I've never even heard of this thing before.
          > The one that I picked up has a geared crank in the lid, holds a
          comfortable 2.5 gals of corn, and after modding it for a drain, works
          well. I spun out 10 gal of wet corn mash in about 15 min.
          > It's alot smaller than a washing machine, and since it is a manual
          crank you can tell the wife you're trying to keep fit, and not involved
          in anything naughty.ATB,
          > Robbie Mac
          > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Robert Hubble
          Jim, (comments inline) Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com From: jamesonbeam1@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 00:51:32 +0000
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 1, 2009
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            Jim,

            (comments inline)

            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            From: jamesonbeam1@...
            Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 00:51:32 +0000
            Subject: [Distillers] Re: Spinning out a mash


            ZB,

            Might want to follow James lead on the washing machine idea and put some
            screening in the spinner part, since the ones I used to sell as a dept.
            mgr. in gourmet cooking had long wide slits in em. Also thinking that
            theres not much space to collect the liquids so you might want to
            connect a tube on the bottom to your colletion jug.
            OR, you could leave the pump hooked up. I used to use a washing machine pump to empty and refill my Amazing James Bond Magical Disappearing Woodfired Still, which allowed me to reload without losing the fire. Worked like a charm.

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim aka Waldo.

            PS. Thanks alot for the info on Sherm's souring method. Haven't got a
            chance to read much of it, but sounds similar to a malolactic
            fermentation, which changes the tart acids in apples into a smooth,
            buttery tasing wine that I used to get alot of when making apple wines.
            You're welcome, of course.

            Wow! I'm familiar with malolactic fermentation in wine but I never thought of it in apple juice (in all its forms). Some of my dry ciders get pretty puckery! I'm not really an old hand at cidering, and I still have a lot to learn. Apple acid is mostly malic, isn't it?

            --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@ ...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi Rob,
            >
            > I *love* it, and I don't know why I never thought of it, and
            > I've heard of salad spinners (even seen a couple). Does it get
            > the grain pretty dry?
            >
            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
            >
            >
            >
            > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
            > From: macrobert@.. .
            > Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:50:08 -0500
            > Subject: [Distillers] Spinning out a mash
            >
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            > Hey ZB,I've finally done my first all grain mash (huh, 20 years in and
            I just start now?)
            > and was wondering how to drain the grains, so I went for a stroll thru
            the housewares section of the local discount mall and found an
            interesting little item called a salad spinner.Or, at least, interesting
            to me as I've never even heard of this thing before.
            > The one that I picked up has a geared crank in the lid, holds a
            comfortable 2.5 gals of corn, and after modding it for a drain, works
            well. I spun out 10 gal of wet corn mash in about 15 min.
            > It's alot smaller than a washing machine, and since it is a manual
            crank you can tell the wife you're trying to keep fit, and not involved
            in anything naughty.ATB,
            > Robbie Mac
            > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • mtnwalker2
            ... I m an old beekeeper who s bees were killed off by an illegal spray of encapsulated di methyle parathion in an apple orchard without any warning. 200 hives
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 1, 2009
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              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Rob,
              >
              > I *love* it, and I don't know why I never thought of it, and
              > I've heard of salad spinners (even seen a couple). Does it get
              > the grain pretty dry?
              >
              > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


              I'm an old beekeeper who's bees were killed off by an illegal spray of
              encapsulated di methyle parathion in an apple orchard without any
              warning. 200 hives died the next day.

              Still, I have my radial extractor, SS with a valve at the bottom. Its
              a great centrifuge, hand cranked. It would hold around 15 gal. in the
              basket, and would sling better than any washing machine, with no
              plastic or rubber or hold up in the hoses. Simple and perhaps cheap,
              as there are many beekeepers out of business now.

              No I won't part with mine. Have a better use for it here.
            • Rob Macrobert
              Bob, I was very surprised at how well it worked. The grain was slightly damp, but I m not complaining as I reused it in a sugar wash to see if any flavor comes
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 1, 2009
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                Bob,
                I was very surprised at how well it worked. The grain was slightly damp, but I'm not complaining as I reused it in a sugar wash to see if any flavor comes across.
                The model I got, is this one:
                http://www.dynamicmixers.co.uk/en/products/salad-dryers/34-e-10-manual-salad-spinner.html

                It has a plastic mesh basket with decently small sized holes, I mean the corn didn't fly out of it, but you may want to line it if you are using smaller grains.
                Check out the bigger models, and I'll give you a hint on full retail pricing....the electric starts at 5 bills and goes up depending on the reseller.
                The 5 gal capacity has a drain built in, and it was on for about $120.00 new.
                HTH,

                Robbie Mac


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Robert Hubble"
                To: distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [Distillers] Spinning out a mash
                Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 16:09:16 -0800





                Hi Rob,

                I *love* it, and I don't know why I never thought of it, and
                I've heard of salad spinners (even seen a couple). Does it get
                the grain pretty dry?

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller






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              • jamesonbeam1
                Hi ZB, Actually, i was talking about applying James concept of putting screening in the salad spinner. I was dept. manager of Gourmet Cookware at A&S in
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 1, 2009
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                  Hi ZB,

                  Actually, i was talking about applying James' concept of putting screening in the salad spinner.  I was dept. manager of Gourmet Cookware at A&S in Queens, NY. back in the 70's when they first came out.  The ones I sold had wide slots in the sides of the spinner and only about 1/2 inch of space at the bottom.  If you put screening inside the spinner section, this would keep the grains inside it.  Then if you cut a hole in the side or on the bottom with a tube running to the collection jar it wouldnt fill up as fast.  Sorry, guess wasnt too clear on that.

                  But i still love the idea of a used washing machine put on spin cycle with screening around the spinner and just letting the juices flow into your collection jug.

                  Now about malolactic fermentation...

                  Yes, theres alot of malic acid in apples.  Thats exactly why every now and then - it wasnt often - maybe 1 in 5 or so times, I would rack my apple wine into a secondary and air lock it.  All of a sudden in a week or 2 it started bubbling again - thats when I relized it was a malolactic fermentation.   After reading more about it in Wikipedia, its starting to make sense now  - read this:

                  Malolactic fermentation tends to create a rounder, fuller mouthfeel. It has been said that malic acid tastes of green apples – indeed, malic comes from the Latin word for apple, mâlum, and is present in apple juice – and this can be tasted in the wine. By contrast, lactic acid is richer, even unctuous, and more buttery tasting – corresponding to its presence in milk, as reflected in the word lactic being derived from the Latin word for milk, lac, and it is present in sour milk.

                  What happened is that the tart malic acid was converted to a smoother lactic acid by lactic acid bacteria (found in sour milk).... Now I know why it happened :):)!!!   I was using old plastic milk containers for my secondary fementers - ROTFLMAO.  I gues every now and then i didnt wash em out good enough - too funny huh.

                  Now Im starting to think (I know - bad move this time of night) - what if we tried adding some sour milk to a sour mash - might that not start off a malolactic fermentation if theres any malic acid in it???  Or we add some apple juice and some sour milk to our sour mash...   Hummmmm.  let me ponder some more.

                  Vino es Veritas,

                  Jim aka Waldo.

                   

                • Robert Hubble
                  Ok, Jim, Now you ve *really* got me interested. I m not sure what combination of critters in milk would give you a malolactic fermentation, but I ve had just
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
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                    Ok, Jim,

                    Now you've *really* got me interested.

                    I'm not sure what combination of critters in milk would give
                    you a malolactic fermentation, but I've had just enough
                    microbiology to know the lil' beasties are opportunistic, and
                    if there's something to eat, they'll gang up and figure a way
                    to eat it.

                    My first thought was the usual yogurt bacteria, Lactobacillus
                    bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus, but their job is
                    converting lactose to lactic acid, not exactly what we want.

                    From a less creative standpoint, my favorite LHBS, Homebrew
                    Heaven, sells 2 different malolactic cultures, as well as test kits
                    for both malic acid and lactic acid.

                    I'd still like to understand and try to use the milk bugs for the
                    malolactic fermentation, but either way, this year's cidering
                    will be *very* interesting.

                    Any idea how the MLF would affect a calvados?

                    Thanks for the information, *especially* the milk part.

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    From: jamesonbeam1@...
                    Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 04:38:21 +0000
                    Subject: [Distillers] Re: Spinning out a mash


                    Hi ZB,
                    ----snip----Now about malolactic fermentation. ..
                    Yes, theres alot of malic acid in apples.  Thats exactly why every now and then - it wasnt often - maybe 1 in 5 or so times, I would rack my apple wine into a secondary and air lock it.  All of a sudden in a week or 2 it started bubbling again - thats when I relized it was a malolactic fermentation.   After reading more about it in Wikipedia, its starting to make sense now  - read this:
                    Malolactic fermentation tends to create a rounder, fuller mouthfeel. It has been said that malic acid tastes of green apples – indeed, malic comes from the Latin word for apple, mâlum, and is present in apple juice – and this can be tasted in the wine. By contrast, lactic acid is richer, even unctuous, and more buttery tasting – corresponding to its presence in milk, as reflected in the word lactic being derived from the Latin word for milk, lac, and it is present in sour milk.
                    What happened is that the tart malic acid was converted to a smoother lactic acid by lactic acid bacteria (found in sour milk).... Now I know why it happened :):)!!!   I was using old plastic milk containers for my secondary fementers - ROTFLMAO.  I gues every now and then i didnt wash em out good enough - too funny huh.
                    Now Im starting to think (I know - bad move this time of night) - what if we tried adding some sour milk to a sour mash - might that not start off a malolactic fermentation if theres any malic acid in it???  Or we add some apple juice and some sour milk to our sour mash...   Hummmmm.  let me ponder some more.
                    Vino es Veritas,
                    Jim aka Waldo.
                     



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                  • jamesonbeam1
                    Hey ZB, Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation (MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being the most notable
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
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                      Hey ZB,

                      Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation (MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being the most notable ones,  and is found in decomposing plants and lactic products (ie. milk).  This is why every now and then I was getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i must not have cleaned out too well hehe).  Your idea of using Lactobacillus  bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:

                      Probiotics are products aimed at delivering living, potentially beneficial, bacterial cells to the gut ecosystem of humans and other animals, whereas prebiotics are non-digestible carbohydrates delivered in food to the large bowel to provide fermentable substrates for selected bacteria. Strains of LAB are the most common microbes employed as probiotics. Two principal kinds of probiotic bacteria, members of the genera Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium, have been studied in detail.

                      When I did have MLF in my apple wines, the taste was unbelieveable and the body was so smooth, that when I bottled it and gave it to friends and family for X-mass, thay asked - Wow, how many years has this been aged??  (even though I made it that summer ;)).  Shhhhh - dont tell em will ya please :).

                      Im going to start experimenting with this in my sour mashes and see if I can mimic Sherm's souring method with the lactic acid.  (SHERM - please chip in here with any advice).

                      So for your calvados, I would definitly recommend going for a MLF in your apple fermentation and tell me about these malolactic cultures at your LHBS.  These would probably be easier to use then screwing around with sour milk LoL.

                      Vino es Veritas,

                      Jim aka Waldo.

                       

                       --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Ok, Jim,
                      >
                      > Now you've *really* got me interested.
                      >
                      > I'm not sure what combination of critters in milk would give
                      > you a malolactic fermentation, but I've had just enough
                      > microbiology to know the lil' beasties are opportunistic, and
                      > if there's something to eat, they'll gang up and figure a way
                      > to eat it.
                      >
                      > My first thought was the usual yogurt bacteria, Lactobacillus
                      > bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus, but their job is
                      > converting lactose to lactic acid, not exactly what we want.
                      >
                      > From a less creative standpoint, my favorite LHBS, Homebrew
                      > Heaven, sells 2 different malolactic cultures, as well as test kits
                      > for both malic acid and lactic acid.
                      >
                      > I'd still like to understand and try to use the milk bugs for the
                      > malolactic fermentation, but either way, this year's cidering
                      > will be *very* interesting.
                      >
                      > Any idea how the MLF would affect a calvados?
                      >
                      > Thanks for the information, *especially* the milk part.
                      >
                      > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: jamesonbeam1@...
                      > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 04:38:21 +0000
                      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Spinning out a mash
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      > Hi ZB,----snip----Now about malolactic fermentation...
                      > Yes, theres alot of malic acid in apples. Thats exactly why every now and then - it wasnt often - maybe 1 in 5 or so times, I would rack my apple wine into a secondary and air lock it. All of a sudden in a week or 2 it started bubbling again - thats when I relized it was a malolactic fermentation. After reading more about it in Wikipedia, its starting to make sense now - read this:
                      > Malolactic fermentation tends to create a rounder, fuller mouthfeel. It has been said that malic acid tastes of green apples – indeed, malic comes from the Latin word for apple, mâlum, and is present in apple juice – and this can be tasted in the wine. By contrast, lactic acid is richer, even unctuous, and more buttery tasting – corresponding to its presence in milk, as reflected in the word lactic being derived from the Latin word for milk, lac, and it is present in sour milk.
                      > What happened is that the tart malic acid was converted to a smoother lactic acid by lactic acid bacteria (found in sour milk).... Now I know why it happened !!! I was using old plastic milk containers for my secondary fementers - ROTFLMAO. I gues every now and then i didnt wash em out good enough - too funny huh.
                      > Now Im starting to think (I know - bad move this time of night) - what if we tried adding some sour milk to a sour mash - might that not start off a malolactic fermentation if theres any malic acid in it??? Or we add some apple juice and some sour milk to our sour mash... Hummmmm. let me ponder some more.
                      > Vino es Veritas,
                      > Jim aka Waldo.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _________________________________________________________________
                      > Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail.
                      > http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009
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                    • Derek Hamlet
                      ... Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines. Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
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                        At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:

                        >Hey ZB,
                        >
                        >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
                        >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
                        >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
                        >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
                        >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
                        >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
                        >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
                        >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:

                        Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
                        softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
                        Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
                        avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
                        Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
                        starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
                        is finished.
                        Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
                        months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
                        68-72 degrees F.
                        Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
                        Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
                        it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
                        whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
                        they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
                        corners like cobwebs.
                        For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
                        very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
                        to bottling.
                        I then store them with reds and whatnot.
                        I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
                        for distilling.


                        Derek
                      • Robert Hubble
                        Jim and Derek. Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I can t give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of the 2 malolactic cultures.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
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                          Jim and Derek.

                          Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
                          can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
                          the 2 malolactic cultures.

                          http://store.homebrewheaven.com/

                          "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
                          Convenient to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic bacteria. Click to see usage instructions.".....$13.95!!!!! (my exclamation points)"

                          and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:

                          "
                          Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
                          Malolactic culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it’s tolerance to low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low cellar temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3 months."...$7.00

                          Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.

                          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          From: derekhamlet@...
                          Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
                          Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

                          At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:

                          >Hey ZB,
                          >
                          >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
                          >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
                          >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
                          >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
                          >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
                          >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
                          >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
                          >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:

                          Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
                          softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
                          Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
                          avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
                          Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
                          starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
                          is finished.
                          Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
                          months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
                          68-72 degrees F.
                          Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
                          Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
                          it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
                          whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
                          they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
                          corners like cobwebs.
                          For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
                          very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
                          to bottling.
                          I then store them with reds and whatnot.
                          I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
                          for distilling.

                          Derek




                          Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.
                        • jamesonbeam1
                          Hi again ZB and Derek, Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi again ZB and Derek,

                            Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep
                            experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
                            wine makers actually encourage MLF in their fermentations. I think from
                            my experience, it works fantastic in apple wines and some of the lactic
                            acid flavors should come across in a Calvados distillation. Going to
                            try it this summer.

                            Vino es Veritas,

                            Jim aka Waldo.

                            Note ZB: I have seen lactic acid sold in some wine making supply stores
                            - maybe just adding that to a sour mash might work also???


                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Jim and Derek.
                            >
                            > Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
                            > can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
                            > the 2 malolactic cultures.
                            >
                            > http://store.homebrewheaven.com/
                            >
                            > "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
                            >
                            >
                            > Convenient
                            > to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a
                            > culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic
                            > bacteria. Click to see usage instructions.".....$13.95!!!!! (my
                            exclamation points)"
                            >
                            > and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:
                            >
                            > "Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
                            >
                            >
                            > Malolactic
                            > culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to
                            > juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur
                            > dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg
                            F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture
                            > packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in
                            > a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction
                            > will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma
                            > characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend
                            > of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid
                            > reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an
                            > excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it's
                            tolerance to
                            > low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low
                            cellar
                            > temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3
                            > months."...$7.00
                            >
                            > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
                            experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
                            >
                            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: derekhamlet@...
                            > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
                            > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning
                            out a mash
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >Hey ZB,
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
                            >
                            > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
                            >
                            > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
                            >
                            > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
                            >
                            > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
                            >
                            > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
                            >
                            > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
                            >
                            > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
                            >
                            > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
                            >
                            > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
                            >
                            > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
                            >
                            > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
                            >
                            > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
                            >
                            > is finished.
                            >
                            > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
                            >
                            > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
                            >
                            > 68-72 degrees F.
                            >
                            > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
                            >
                            > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
                            >
                            > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
                            >
                            > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
                            >
                            > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
                            >
                            > corners like cobwebs.
                            >
                            > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
                            >
                            > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
                            >
                            > to bottling.
                            >
                            > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
                            >
                            > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
                            >
                            > for distilling.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Derek
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                            >
                            http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
                            >
                          • Vini
                            Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation to about 4,5%
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
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                              Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I
                              pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation
                              to about 4,5% alcohol it nearly cleared but then started to ferment
                              again. A qualified guess is that this was the malolactic fermentation.
                              The temp in the room was going up and that's how wine producers
                              sometimes induce the ML fermentaion. The ML bacterias are already
                              there but seems to prefer the raised temp.

                              All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well. It
                              reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the malic acid is felt
                              more sour than the malic acid.

                              In Pays de Auge (where the best calvados is made) they let the apple
                              juice ferment and and is kept on its lees for several months to
                              achieve the right taste to the final product. During this time it
                              undergoes a ML fermentation.

                              /Vini


                              > Hi again ZB and Derek,
                              >
                              > Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep
                              > experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
                              > wine makers actually encourage MLF in their fermentations. I think from
                              > my experience, it works fantastic in apple wines and some of the lactic
                              > acid flavors should come across in a Calvados distillation. Going to
                              > try it this summer.
                              >
                              > Vino es Veritas,
                              >
                              > Jim aka Waldo.
                              >
                              > Note ZB: I have seen lactic acid sold in some wine making supply stores
                              > - maybe just adding that to a sour mash might work also???
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Jim and Derek.
                              > >
                              > > Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
                              > > can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
                              > > the 2 malolactic cultures.
                              > >
                              > > http://store.homebrewheaven.com/
                              > >
                              > > "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Convenient
                              > > to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a
                              > > culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic
                              > > bacteria. Click to see usage instructions.".....$13.95!!!!! (my
                              > exclamation points)"
                              > >
                              > > and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:
                              > >
                              > > "Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Malolactic
                              > > culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to
                              > > juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur
                              > > dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg
                              > F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture
                              > > packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in
                              > > a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction
                              > > will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma
                              > > characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend
                              > > of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid
                              > > reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an
                              > > excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it's
                              > tolerance to
                              > > low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low
                              > cellar
                              > > temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3
                              > > months."...$7.00
                              > >
                              > > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
                              > experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
                              > >
                              > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              > > From: derekhamlet@
                              > > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
                              > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning
                              > out a mash
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > >Hey ZB,
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
                              > >
                              > > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
                              > >
                              > > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
                              > >
                              > > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
                              > >
                              > > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
                              > >
                              > > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
                              > >
                              > > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
                              > >
                              > > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
                              > >
                              > > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
                              > >
                              > > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
                              > >
                              > > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
                              > >
                              > > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
                              > >
                              > > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
                              > >
                              > > is finished.
                              > >
                              > > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
                              > >
                              > > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
                              > >
                              > > 68-72 degrees F.
                              > >
                              > > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
                              > >
                              > > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
                              > >
                              > > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
                              > >
                              > > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
                              > >
                              > > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
                              > >
                              > > corners like cobwebs.
                              > >
                              > > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
                              > >
                              > > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
                              > >
                              > > to bottling.
                              > >
                              > > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
                              > >
                              > > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
                              > >
                              > > for distilling.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Derek
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > _________________________________________________________________
                              > > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                              > >
                              > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
                              > >
                              >
                            • Zapata Vive
                              My initial thoughts were that it shouldn t matter for a distilled beverage as neither lactic nor malic acids are volatile. But, then I thought about what else
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                My initial thoughts were that it shouldn't matter for a distilled beverage as neither lactic nor malic acids are volatile.  But, then I thought about what else the acids do, like form esters with alcohols.  These are usually more volatile, so maybe they would come across.
                                 
                                Trying to imagine what the taste differences would be.  So I thought I'd compare things like ethyl malate vs. ethyl lactate.  Unfortunately I come up short on the malates.  About all I can find is a list of malates found in some small berry which are believed to be bitter tasting.   Unfortunately I can't find any info on the corresponding lactates.
                                 
                                In fact, about all I can come up with is that ethyl lactate is "is mild, buttery, creamy, with hints of fruit and coconut." (wikipedia).  Ethyl lactate has a pretty high BP, so I'm not sure much if any of it would come over in the distillate.
                                 
                                Malolactic fermentation can producer diacetyl (buttered popcorn flavor, sometimes butterscotch like).  Diacetyl's BP is 88*C, so it is likely that it could distill over.
                                 
                                OK, I'm coming up pretty short.  But I find that lactic acid can form lactones, I recognize that word.  Lactones are found naturally in oak trees and have a flavor similar to whisky, or coconuts, depending on which account you take.  Strange, whiskey isn't very coconut to me.  Seems like most lactones have BP's well in excess of 100*C, so probably little would come over in the distillate.
                                 
                                So, I didn't find anything that really seems like it would come over in the distillate other than diacetyl.  Maybe this would be ok in a distillate, but I'm not sure. 
                                 
                                I just kinda took notes while doing a bunch of googling, and thought I'd share in case anybody else has any thoughts or wants to take it from there.  I'd be willing to try with a free wash, but fruits and juices are rather expensive, so I think I'll hold off on distilling a malolactic fermentation until we have some idea of what flavors specifically migth come over.  Notes of whiskey, oak, coconut, and butter do sound nice in a cider though, I think I'll definite reserve some of my apple wash for a ML fermentation and save it as a wine...
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:26 PM
                                Subject: RE: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

                                Jim and Derek.

                                Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
                                can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
                                the 2 malolactic cultures.

                                http://store. homebrewheaven. com/

                                "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
                                Convenient to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic bacteria. Click to see usage instructions. ".....$13. 95!!!!! (my exclamation points)"

                                and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:

                                "
                                Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
                                Malolactic culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it’s tolerance to low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low cellar temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3 months."...$ 7.00

                                Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.

                                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                                To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                                From: derekhamlet@ shaw.ca
                                Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
                                Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

                                At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:

                                >Hey ZB,
                                >
                                >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
                                >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
                                >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
                                >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
                                >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
                                >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
                                >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
                                >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:

                                Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
                                softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
                                Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
                                avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
                                Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
                                starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
                                is finished.
                                Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
                                months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
                                68-72 degrees F.
                                Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
                                Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
                                it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
                                whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
                                they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
                                corners like cobwebs.
                                For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
                                very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
                                to bottling.
                                I then store them with reds and whatnot.
                                I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
                                for distilling.

                                Derek




                                Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.

                              • Zapata Vive
                                That is useful info, thanks. Maybe that s all the recommendation I need to try it with my apple wash, other than the months part, I hate waiting... ... From:
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 2, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  That is useful info, thanks.  Maybe that's all the recommendation I need to try it with my apple wash, other than the months part, I hate waiting...
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Vini
                                  Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 4:15 PM
                                  Subject: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

                                  Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I
                                  pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation
                                  to about 4,5% alcohol it nearly cleared but then started to ferment
                                  again. A qualified guess is that this was the malolactic fermentation.
                                  The temp in the room was going up and that's how wine producers
                                  sometimes induce the ML fermentaion. The ML bacterias are already
                                  there but seems to prefer the raised temp.

                                  All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well. It
                                  reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the malic acid is felt
                                  more sour than the malic acid.

                                  In Pays de Auge (where the best calvados is made) they let the apple
                                  juice ferment and and is kept on its lees for several months to
                                  achieve the right taste to the final product. During this time it
                                  undergoes a ML fermentation.

                                  /Vini

                                  > Hi again ZB and Derek,
                                  >
                                  > Your right!! - that stuff is expensive... Think im going to keep
                                  > experimenting with the sour milk approach lol. And yes Derek, some
                                  > wine makers actually encourage MLF in their fermentations. I think from
                                  > my experience, it works fantastic in apple wines and some of the lactic
                                  > acid flavors should come across in a Calvados distillation. Going to
                                  > try it this summer.
                                  >
                                  > Vino es Veritas,
                                  >
                                  > Jim aka Waldo.
                                  >
                                  > Note ZB: I have seen lactic acid sold in some wine making supply stores
                                  > - maybe just adding that to a sour mash might work also???
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@ > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Jim and Derek.
                                  > >
                                  > > Since Homebrew Heaven generates dynamic HTML pages, I
                                  > > can't give you a link that works, but here is the text for 1 of
                                  > > the 2 malolactic cultures.
                                  > >
                                  > > http://store. homebrewheaven. com/
                                  > >
                                  > > "Malolactic Culture (Dry)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Convenient
                                  > > to use, sufficient for 10gallons as is, up to 50 gallons if you make a
                                  > > culture. 2 gram pkg. A blend of 4 separate strains of malolactic
                                  > > bacteria. Click to see usage instructions. ".....$13. 95!!!!! (my
                                  > exclamation points)"
                                  > >
                                  > > and the other one is from Wyeast, from the slopes of *my mountain*:
                                  > >
                                  > > "Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend (Liquid Culture)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Malolactic
                                  > > culture blend isolated from western Oregon wineries. Can be added to
                                  > > juice any time after the onset of yeast fermentation when sulfur
                                  > > dioxide is less than 15 ppm. Use at temperatures greater than 55 deg
                                  > F." and it says further: " Malo-lactic Culture
                                  > > packages contain a live liquid suspension of Oenococcus oenii grown in
                                  > > a sterile organic juice based nutrient medium. Malic acid reduction
                                  > > will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma
                                  > > characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. 4007 Blend (blend
                                  > > of ER1A and EY2d cultures) will provide rapid and complete malic acid
                                  > > reduction in wine over a broad spectrum of conditions. ER1A, an
                                  > > excellent choice for red wines, has been isolated for it's
                                  > tolerance to
                                  > > low pH coditions. Ey2D has been selected for it tolerance to low
                                  > cellar
                                  > > temperatures. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3
                                  > > months."...$ 7.00
                                  > >
                                  > > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
                                  > experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
                                  > >
                                  > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                                  > > From: derekhamlet@
                                  > > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
                                  > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning
                                  > out a mash
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >Hey ZB,
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
                                  > >
                                  > > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
                                  > >
                                  > > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
                                  > >
                                  > > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
                                  > >
                                  > > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
                                  > >
                                  > > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that i
                                  > >
                                  > > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
                                  > >
                                  > > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of LAB:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
                                  > >
                                  > > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
                                  > >
                                  > > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try and
                                  > >
                                  > > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
                                  > >
                                  > > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
                                  > >
                                  > > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary fermentation
                                  > >
                                  > > is finished.
                                  > >
                                  > > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
                                  > >
                                  > > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
                                  > >
                                  > > 68-72 degrees F.
                                  > >
                                  > > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
                                  > >
                                  > > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance that
                                  > >
                                  > > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
                                  > >
                                  > > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
                                  > >
                                  > > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
                                  > >
                                  > > corners like cobwebs.
                                  > >
                                  > > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my secondaries
                                  > >
                                  > > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right down
                                  > >
                                  > > to bottling.
                                  > >
                                  > > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
                                  > >
                                  > > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
                                  > >
                                  > > for distilling.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Derek
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                  > > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                                  > >
                                  > http://windowslive. com/explore? ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ t2_allup_ explore_012009
                                  > >
                                  >

                                • gff_stwrt
                                  Hi, folks, Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a byproduct of
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi, folks,

                                    Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast
                                    used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                                    byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making operation.

                                    A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand, I believe.

                                    It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might cost
                                    (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                                    Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                                    laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces marxianus,
                                    sometimes known as k. fragilis).

                                    But, THAT is expensive!

                                    Regards,

                                    The Baker




                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi again ZB and Derek,
                                    >
                                    > Your right!! - that stuff is expensive...

                                    SNIP

                                    >
                                    > Jim aka Waldo.
                                    >
                                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@>
                                    wrote:

                                    SNIP

                                    ...$7.00
                                    > >
                                    > > Derek, you sure got that expensive part right, but for a 5-gallon
                                    > experiment, that & bucks might not be too bad.
                                    > >
                                    > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > From: derekhamlet@
                                    > > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re:
                                    Spinning
                                    > out a mash
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > At 11:06 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >Hey ZB,
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) is what causes malolactic fermentation
                                    > >
                                    > > >(MLF) in fruits that contain malic acid - apples and grapes being
                                    > >
                                    > > >the most notable ones, and is found in decomposing plants and
                                    > >
                                    > > >lactic products (ie. milk). This is why every now and then I was
                                    > >
                                    > > >getting a malolactic fermentation occuring in my secondary
                                    > >
                                    > > >fermenters which were old 1 gallon plastic milk containers (that
                                    i
                                    > >
                                    > > >must not have cleaned out too well hehe). Your idea of using
                                    > >
                                    > > >Lactobacillus bulgaricus is a good one since it is a strain of
                                    LAB:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Malolactic fermentation in wines is usually done to facilitate a
                                    > >
                                    > > softer rounder mouthfeel in some red wines.
                                    > >
                                    > > Cab. Sauv. and Merlot are classic examples. Most folks would try
                                    and
                                    > >
                                    > > avoid malolactic fermentation with say a Zinfandel for example.
                                    > >
                                    > > Most of us buy a special culture (quite expensive) make a good
                                    > >
                                    > > starter and then innoculate our reds after the primary
                                    fermentation
                                    > >
                                    > > is finished.
                                    > >
                                    > > Malolactic can take as little as a month or as long as three
                                    > >
                                    > > months. It is important to keep the temperature between approx.
                                    > >
                                    > > 68-72 degrees F.
                                    > >
                                    > > Here's the crunch for the home winemaker.
                                    > >
                                    > > Once you've used malolactic bacteria there is a very good chance
                                    that
                                    > >
                                    > > it will hang around in your wineroom and get into future batches
                                    > >
                                    > > whether you want it or not. In France in some of the caves where
                                    > >
                                    > > they age their wine, they tell me that the malolactic hangs in the
                                    > >
                                    > > corners like cobwebs.
                                    > >
                                    > > For this reason when I make whites (not often) I clean my
                                    secondaries
                                    > >
                                    > > very carefully and then do all the various steps outside right
                                    down
                                    > >
                                    > > to bottling.
                                    > >
                                    > > I then store them with reds and whatnot.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have no idea if I've ever gotten malolactic into a wash intended
                                    > >
                                    > > for distilling.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Derek
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > _________________________________________________________________
                                    > > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                                    > >
                                    > http://windowslive.com/explore?
                                    ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • gff_stwrt
                                    ... Hi, vini, It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it yet I
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Vini" <wineifera@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Fall 2007 i made my first calvados from 300-400 kg of apple which I
                                      > pressed to 250 liter apple juice or so. After the alcohol fermentation
                                      > to about 4,5% alcohol it nearly cleared but then started to ferment
                                      > again. A qualified guess is that this was the malolactic fermentation.
                                      > The temp in the room was going up and that's how wine producers
                                      > sometimes induce the ML fermentation. The ML bacterias are already
                                      > there but seems to prefer the raised temp.
                                      >
                                      > All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well. It
                                      > reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the MALIC acid is felt
                                      > more sour than the MALIC acid.
                                      >
                                      Hi, vini,

                                      It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and
                                      since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it
                                      yet I wonder if you could change the word that is wrong and post it
                                      again?

                                      Thanks a lot

                                      The Baker
                                    • burrows206
                                      Hi Baker, I found this on the internet http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf only read a couple of
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Baker,
                                         I found this on the internet
                                         http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf
                                        only read a couple of pages and the mind went into information over
                                        load (in other words lost track too many big incomprehensible words)
                                        thought it might be useful anyway so I'm posting it
                                        Geoff
                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi, folks,
                                        >
                                        > Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast
                                        > used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                                        > byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making operation.
                                        >
                                        > A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand, I believe.
                                        >
                                        > It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might cost
                                        > (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                                        > Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                                        > laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces marxianus,
                                        > sometimes known as k. fragilis).
                                        >
                                        > But, THAT is expensive!
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        >
                                        > The Baker
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • jamesonbeam1
                                        Hi Baker, Believe Vini ment to say: It reduces the perceived acidity in the wine sinc the MALIC acid is felt more sour then the LACTIC acid. A malolactic
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Baker,

                                          Believe Vini ment to say: " It reduces the perceived acidity in the wine
                                          sinc the MALIC acid is felt more sour then the LACTIC acid."

                                          A malolactic fermentation (MLF) transforms malic acid through lactic
                                          acid bacteria (LAB) into Lacitc acid, a much smoother, less bitter acid.

                                          Vino es Veritas,

                                          Jim aka Waldo.


                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Vini" wineifera@ wrote:

                                          > > All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well.
                                          It
                                          > > reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the MALIC acid is
                                          felt
                                          > > more sour than the MALIC acid.
                                          > >
                                          > Hi, vini,
                                          >
                                          > It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and
                                          > since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it
                                          > yet I wonder if you could change the word that is wrong and post it
                                          > again?
                                          >
                                          > Thanks a lot
                                          >
                                          > The Baker
                                          >
                                        • KM Services
                                          Yes Baker, Fonterra in New Zealand produce fuel and drinkable ethanol from whey which is used in a variety of products see this link :
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment

                                            Yes Baker,

                                            Fonterra in New Zealand produce fuel and drinkable ethanol from whey which is used in a variety of products    see this link : http://energy.massey.ac.nz/Conference%202006/Ethanol%20from%20Whey%20-%20A%20Gibson.pdf

                                             

                                             

                                            This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure...

                                            Cheers

                                            Ken Mc

                                             


                                            From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of gff_stwrt
                                            Sent: Wednesday, 4 February 2009 11:02 p.m.
                                            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [Distillers] malolactic fermentation - WAS: Re: Spinning out a mash

                                             

                                            Hi, folks,

                                            Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special yeast
                                            used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                                            byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making operation.

                                            A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand , I believe.

                                            It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might cost
                                            (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                                            Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                                            laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces marxianus,
                                            sometimes known as k. fragilis).

                                            But, THAT is expensive!

                                            Regards,

                                            The Baker

                                          • Vini
                                            I now see I made this post without too much proofreading (actually due to a glass or two of some slightly over oaked calvados - but with aeration for six
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I now see I made this post without too much proofreading (actually due
                                              to a glass or two of some slightly over oaked calvados - but with
                                              aeration for six months I hope it will marry well).

                                              Anyway, it should of course be:
                                              Malic acid is felt more acid than lactic acid.

                                              There's also an 'and' that should be an 'it' further down.

                                              I wonder if this necessarily means that MA has a lower pH than LA?

                                              And thank you, Jim/Waldo for you inerpreting/correcting me!

                                              /Vini
                                              Not a native speaker of this language :)


                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hi Baker,
                                              >
                                              > Believe Vini ment to say: " It reduces the perceived acidity in the wine
                                              > sinc the MALIC acid is felt more sour then the LACTIC acid."
                                              >
                                              > A malolactic fermentation (MLF) transforms malic acid through lactic
                                              > acid bacteria (LAB) into Lacitc acid, a much smoother, less bitter acid.
                                              >
                                              > Vino es Veritas,
                                              >
                                              > Jim aka Waldo.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Vini" wineifera@ wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > > All red wine undergo this process and a lot of white wine as well.
                                              > It
                                              > > > reduces the perceived acidity in the wine since the MALIC acid is
                                              > felt
                                              > > > more sour than the MALIC acid.
                                              > > >
                                              > > Hi, vini,
                                              > >
                                              > > It looks as if the last paragraph has a typo (see my CAPITALS) and
                                              > > since I am interested in your story but am struggling to understand it
                                              > > yet I wonder if you could change the word that is wrong and post it
                                              > > again?
                                              > >
                                              > > Thanks a lot
                                              > >
                                              > > The Baker
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • gff_stwrt
                                              Jeff, Thanks for the information, I ve saved it to study in my spare time! I guess what I need is a mate working in a whey distillery who could (without
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Feb 4, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Jeff,

                                                Thanks for the information, I've saved it to study in my spare time!

                                                I guess what I need is a mate working in a whey distillery who could
                                                (without breaking any rules) let me have a bit of this stuff to try.

                                                Anyway, I have been busy with fruit lately and have a lot to distill.

                                                Regards,

                                                The Baker

                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206" <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi Baker,
                                                > I found this on the internet
                                                > http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf
                                                > <http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/4_2/Omar.pdf>
                                                > only read a couple of pages and the mind went into information over
                                                > load (in other words lost track too many big incomprehensible words)
                                                > thought it might be useful anyway so I'm posting it
                                                > Geoff
                                                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hi, folks,
                                                > >
                                                > > Several times I have made enquiries about obtaining the special
                                                yeast
                                                > > used for fermenting whey, which I might be able to obtain as a
                                                > > byproduct of the operations of my friend's cheese-making
                                                operation.
                                                > >
                                                > > A lot of vodka is made from whey in New Zealand, I believe.
                                                > >
                                                > > It seems I could only obtain a quite small amount and it might
                                                cost
                                                > > (from an unreliable memory) say $150 or $200 or more.
                                                > > Which of course would be fine for an operation set up with its own
                                                > > laboratory to culture and store the yeast (kluyveromyces
                                                marxianus,
                                                > > sometimes known as k. fragilis).
                                                > >
                                                > > But, THAT is expensive!
                                                > >
                                                > > Regards,
                                                > >
                                                > > The Baker
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
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