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Rum and Dunder

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  • Anthony Athawes
    1. The first wash (22 litres) of brown sugar and blackstrap yielded 10 x 500cc bottles, varying from 65% to 30%ABV. Tastes fairly neutral and no particular
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 1, 2009
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      1. The first wash (22 litres) of brown sugar and blackstrap yielded 10 x 500cc bottles, varying from 65% to 30%ABV. Tastes fairly neutral and no particular aroma. I imagine the very low ABV is due to going too fast? (I use a WCStill - not that I think it is! - without reflux).
       
      There is no taste of Rum. Does this only come from flavouring?
       
      2.Alex has suggested that his Rum needs no further treatment, though one might do a second distillation in the pot still. There is a problem that this (4 litres) would not cover the element and would need a few gallons of water to give cover. Is it worth building a smaller still for second fermentation?
       
      3. There is an interesting question whether one could simply mix all the bottles together to get an overall ABV of around 50% and dilute it down to 45% (instead of a second fermentation and dilution down from say 85%).
       
      4. Our coffee pot could handle a litre of distillate and a litre of water (2 litres total). Has anyone modified a 2 litre jug for small fermentations? There surely is a need but I have never seen the idea ventured.
       
      5. The remains from distillation are Dunder, and I intend a second wash of Molasses and brown sugar. When this is ready, I'll add 2 gallons of Dunder and distill. Probably distill a second time and oak and flavour.
       
      6. I wonder if anyone has any comments on these faltering steps?
    • castillo.alex2008
      Hey Tony, nice to see you around again ... x 500cc bottles, varying from 65% to 30%ABV. Tastes fairly neutral and no particular aroma. I imagine the very low
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 1, 2009
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        Hey Tony, nice to see you around again

        Here go some comments:

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Athawes" <Anthony.Athawes@...> wrote:
        >
        > 1. The first wash (22 litres) of brown sugar and blackstrap yielded 10 x 500cc bottles, varying from 65% to 30%ABV. Tastes fairly neutral and no particular aroma. I imagine the very low ABV is due to going too fast? (I use a WCStill - not that I think it is! - without reflux).
        >
        > There is no taste of Rum. Does this only come from flavouring?

        You´ll get a strong aroma if you double distill using 50/50 dunder and low wines.

        Tastes neutral b/c you didn´t use much blackstrap molasses or b/c of the kind of yeast you use.  EC-1118, superstart and others will give you almost vodka since they are poor ester producing strains.  In the other hand baker´s or Danstil 493 EDV will give you lots of flavors b/c they produce many esters during fermentation.

        The low ABV is due to the type of column/still you use.  Pot still will give you low ABV and you´ll need 2 or 3 distillations to get a higher %.  If using a column the longer the column the higher the ABV you´ll get and the wider it is the more amount of product per unit of time you´ll get.  However it´s ok to age from 55% on.


        >
        > 2.Alex has suggested that his Rum needs no further treatment, though one might do a second distillation in the pot still. There is a problem that this (4 litres) would not cover the element and would need a few gallons of water to give cover. Is it worth building a smaller still for second fermentation?

        As I said before, I use a PSII high capacity from brewhaus, that one has a 3´´ wide column of about 5´ tall, so with only a single distillation and proper cuts no second distillation is needed for having a good product.  I only double distill if I´m after a heavy rum with much "bouquet" (aroma) for which I dilute my low wines 50/50 with aged dunder (dunder from only molasses fermentation, not brown sugar and molasses).  Since you have a pot still you need to double distill so is always better to dilute your low wines to 27 - 30% (mix with dunder) in that way you´ll get your element cover.  Also you keep it safe as at this strength alcohol is not flamable in case of an accident.  That was one of the first things I learn from Harry.   

        No don´t build a smaller still.  You don´t need it.


        >
        > 3. There is an interesting question whether one could simply mix all the bottles together to get an overall ABV of around 50% and dilute it down to 45% (instead of a second fermentation and dilution down from say 85%).

        Collect everything that comes out from the still in the first distillation without doing any cuts up to 95-98C.  Those will be your low wines.  For your second distillation (spirits run) do your cuts as:

        first 50 mls.: foreshots,

        second 50 - 100 mls.: heads

        Middle cut: from heads to tails (you´ll know by taste)

        Tails: up to 98C.

        To keep it simple take your middle cut at still strength, add 5-10 grams of heavy toast american oak per litter and let it rest for 2 or 3 months regularly aerating then dilute with distilled water to your liking.  Adding honey will mellow faster (clarify the honey and add an equivalent of no more than 8 mls. per liter of final product; for a brandy finishing add some raising extract and for a long finish add macerations of pepper, cinnamon and cloves, a few drops per liter).


        >
        > 4. Our coffee pot could handle a litre of distillate and a litre of water (2 litres total). Has anyone modified a 2 litre jug for small fermentations? There surely is a need but I have never seen the idea ventured.

        Don´t use a toy if you have a real still.  Stick to your pot still.
        >
        > 5. The remains from distillation are Dunder, and I intend a second wash of Molasses and brown sugar. When this is ready, I'll add 2 gallons of Dunder and distill. Probably distill a second time and oak and flavour.

        Read above.


        >
        > 6. I wonder if anyone has any comments on these faltering steps?

        Practice makes perfection, but since it seems to be that you don´t have too much time to spend during week time because you want to single distill.  So if economically possible try to get a PSII high capacity form brewhaus, will save you lots of time single distilling, do macerations (see my message about it in new distillers) and play with them, you´ll master and control the different tones you find in many rums just by changing the amounts of one or two spices or not adding some of them.

         

        HTH

         

        Alex


        >

      • Anthony Athawes
        Thank you for all your information Alex. You really are quite an expert! It would be great to sit down with you and see you in action. I have printed out your
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 2, 2009
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          Thank you for all your information Alex. You really are quite an expert!
          It would be great to sit down with you and see you in action.
           
          I have printed out your email and will start off another brew today with 1/3 Molasses, 1/3 sugar, 1/3 water. When it come to distillation, I'll put in 2 gals Dunder.
           
          Re your comment on your PS2, I have 6'-8" x 2.5" dia copper tube outside just dying to be turned into something.......
           
          Incidentally I have a metre Liebig that works a lot better than the condenser on the WC Still.
           
          Hope your basking in your 25 C weather - it's snowing here!
           
           
           
           
        • Zapata Vive
          I don t know rum, so I won t pretend to. But in several things I ve read, including the Aroya patent (or whoever he was), rum specific flavor comes in the
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 2, 2009
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            I don't know rum, so I won't pretend to.  But in several things I've read, including the Aroya patent (or whoever he was), rum specific flavor comes in the tails after the nasties.  I think that it goes something like, 1.  do a strip run.  2. start your spirit run.  Cut out the heads, switch to heart, make your tails cut, but keep collecting.  I think that once the tails are down to about 30% you start collecting again.
             
            Like I said, I don't know, just what I've heard and kept in mind for when I do start a rum.  Maybe the lack of rum flavor is from not enough molasses, combined with not catching those late tails.  I dunno, but might be something you want to research.
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:29 AM
            Subject: [Distillers] Re: Rum and Dunder

            Thank you for all your information Alex. You really are quite an expert!
            It would be great to sit down with you and see you in action.
             
            I have printed out your email and will start off another brew today with 1/3 Molasses, 1/3 sugar, 1/3 water. When it come to distillation, I'll put in 2 gals Dunder.
             
            Re your comment on your PS2, I have 6'-8" x 2.5" dia copper tube outside just dying to be turned into something... ....
             
            Incidentally I have a metre Liebig that works a lot better than the condenser on the WC Still.
             
            Hope your basking in your 25 C weather - it's snowing here!
             
             
             
             

          • castillo.alex2008
            Hi ZP The patent you say is by Arroyo a Puerto Rican rum maker. It is at Harry´s site. There are many different ways in which rum is made but remember that
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 2, 2009
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              Hi ZP

              The patent you say is by Arroyo a Puerto Rican rum maker. It is at
              Harry´s site. There are many different ways in which rum is made but
              remember that he also used cultures of bacteria that many of us will
              hardly get. According to my experience the flavors come in
              approximate these percents:

              10% the material you use (cane juice, molasses, sugar)

              10 - 20% the strain of yeast you use (I think this after trying
              Danstil EDV 493, worth a try, expensive but worths every penny)

              80 - 70% Aging (the kind of oak you use american or french, the
              degree of toast, time, etc.)

              and additional 10 percent could be subtracted from the one asigned to
              aging if using and relying in spices (cinnammon, cloves, etc.) for
              the "notes" you get in some rums as hot (pepper, cinnamon), citrus
              (coriander, lemongrass), etc.

              Finally it results more in an art of combining all the above factors,
              so you cannot say a given rum is better than other in all aspects.
              There are lots of combinations. Plenty to choose from. I like that!

              Alex


              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I don't know rum, so I won't pretend to. But in several things
              I've read, including the Aroya patent (or whoever he was), rum
              specific flavor comes in the tails after the nasties. I think that
              it goes something like, 1. do a strip run. 2. start your spirit
              run. Cut out the heads, switch to heart, make your tails cut, but
              keep collecting. I think that once the tails are down to about 30%
              you start collecting again.
              >
              > Like I said, I don't know, just what I've heard and kept in mind
              for when I do start a rum. Maybe the lack of rum flavor is from not
              enough molasses, combined with not catching those late tails. I
              dunno, but might be something you want to research.
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Anthony Athawes
              > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:29 AM
              > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Rum and Dunder
              >
              >
              >
              > Thank you for all your information Alex. You really are quite an
              expert!
              > It would be great to sit down with you and see you in action.
              >
              > I have printed out your email and will start off another brew
              today with 1/3 Molasses, 1/3 sugar, 1/3 water. When it come to
              distillation, I'll put in 2 gals Dunder.
              >
              > Re your comment on your PS2, I have 6'-8" x 2.5" dia copper tube
              outside just dying to be turned into something.......
              >
              > Incidentally I have a metre Liebig that works a lot better than
              the condenser on the WC Still.
              >
              > Hope your basking in your 25 C weather - it's snowing here!
              >
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