Re: [Distillers] Re: rum before aging
- Hi Wal,
I Agree, it definitely depends on what style you want. I tried to keep
my theories general. The ingredients of the initial wash, proportions
of things recycled, degree of rectification and where the cuts are
made all come into it. Not to mention aging with aditions like oak and
spices. All those things can totally change the rum.
Hopefully someone can use my reasoning as an empirical model to figure
out what might improve an aspect of their rum, and tell me if it
Two rums can taste extreamly different, but both taste like rum. In my
opinion, the similarity must lay in the compounds that are most
inseparable from ethanol. These I hypothesise are acids (just because
of how flavour develops in a highly rectified rum). So I think if you
want a rummy rum, try to concentrate those acids.
On 11/13/08, waljaco <waljaco@...> wrote:
> It also depends on what style you want. Just as with single malt
> whisky or grain whisky or Irish whiskey or Kentucky or Tenessee whiskey.
> Generally whiskies and gins have become lighter these days.
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, dearknarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
>> Gday guys,
>> Don't mind me, but I'm going to reverse up and address the initial
>> question of this thread. I'm just going to document a few theories
>> (and that's all they are) I've formulated throughout my rum making.
>> My first theory is that many of the flavour compounds in rum distill
>> over as volitile acids with relatively high taste and odour
>> thresholds. That means when a rum wash is distilled, the product
>> straight off the still (particularly from the middle of the hearts or
>> rectified product) is a somewhat bland spirit that is low on flavour
>> and harsh to the palet.
>> In a relatively short time period (a matter of days or weeks), by
>> itself in a bottle, the flavour of the plain spirit changes a great
>> deal. It gains an increasingly strong bouquet and increasingly rich
>> The second part of my theory is that the flavour change is due to the
>> acids in the spirit reacting with the alcohol to form esters with much
>> lower taste and odour thresholds and generally nicer flavour.
>> Now, what practical things do I do to utilise this theory and make
> better rum?
>> 1. Always recycle dunder into new washes - It is acidic and contains
>> plently of those good flavour acids. Better than using other acid
>> sources in my book.
>> 2. Always add dunder to a spirit run - This is advocated by many
>> including the authoritive Harry himself, but I have an important bit
>> to add; Mix the dunder with the low wines ASAP after the stripping
>> run. This is an attempt to stop any aging of the low wines and keep
>> the volitile compounds availiable to distill over in the spirit run as
>> they exist now.
>> 3. Always recycle feints. Spend the time and energy to collect them
>> because that's the only way we can build up good amounts of flavour
>> compounds in subsequent runs. Store the feints with some dunder, for
>> the same reasons as above.
>> Using the above methods, my theory is that we build up maximum
>> volitile flavour compounds, and preserve them in a form that can
>> distill into the final product. Even with tight cuts and/or high
>> reflux, the final product (even if it tastes bland to begin with)
>> developes strong rich rum flavours.
>> Thats me done. Hope it's some food for thought.
>> On 11/12/08, mavnkaf <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
>> > Hi Tony,
>> > A while ago Harry gave me a 50 liter molasses wash recipe with the
>> > method. See with every recipe one must have a instructions to
>> > complete the recipe, right! AS far as the best recipe for rum for
>> > me, was from BOSS guy, Harry. My questions and Harry's answers are
>> > in the archives of course, for all to see if you wanted to search
>> > it. To save time, I'll give Harry's recipe / method here, then I'll
>> > try to answer some of your questions…. Or I'll ask some questions!
>> > :)::):):):):):):):):):)
>> > Re: RUM (again)
>> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@> wrote:
>> >> Thank you very much Harry,
>> >> It seems it is like voodoo, not many poeple want to do it like it
>> >> should be done. I relize now its not about yield but flavor and
>> > it
>> >> takes time to do all this I guess
>> > .......BRAVO! Give that man a cee-gar! The sooner everyone
>> > realises this, the sooner they'll be making a better quality (and
>> > flavorful) rum than the commercial offerings. :)
>> > , so now, what should I do? Find a
>> >> good recipe/method for a 25 L beer fermenter and a 50 L bin.
>> > Harry I
>> >> know you have done 50 L molasses washes before, are you willing to
>> >> share your recipe for that size?
>> > ...........10 litres molasses, 20 litres hot water, 20 litres
>> > dunder, juice of 2 lemons, 3 or 4 multi-B-vitamins for good measure,
>> > just in case the molasses is lacking anything (extra doesn't hurt. I
>> > use those big "Berocca" morning after fizzies). Clarify the
>> > molasses overnight with the first 20 L hot water. Next day set up
>> > the fermenter (it needs to be a 60 litre container to leave room for
>> > foaming), add everything else (minus the sludge), aerate with a
>> > vigorous stir-up, pitch the yeast (use plenty; I use anything up to
>> > 300 gms of granulated bakers, rehydrated). Airlock it, then stand
>> > back. :)
>> > Or is it better to do smaller
>> >> batches and to get a better dunder quicker? I suppose that sounds
>> >> better.
>> > ........Small batches for a start, until you get a feel for it.
>> > Then up the size. BTW, here's a little tip. If you've got the room
>> > in your freezer (I have), dunder will keep perfectly for up to a
>> > year. Just thaw & go. (ain't modern technology marvellous?).
>> > snip…
>> > Slainte!
>> > regards Harry
>> > :):):):)):):):):):):):):)
>> > My post here to Harry, was a few years ago and it's a no fail recipe!
>> > .............................
>> > However, if we can get a modest imitation of Rum, that would be quite
>> > desirable. I'm afraid that my three attempts to make Rum via
>> > Molasses/Dunder have not been at all successful, so a "cheap"
>> > alternative would be mild progress.
>> > …………So Tony, tell us what part failed? With out telling we can't
>> > answer!
>> > There must be many out there who are successful Rum distillers. I've
>> > had advice - but never the full story.
>> > ……………….What, the full story from recipe … to … diluting to drinking
>> > strength…. or some of the missing parts that the so called rum
>> > experts forget to tell, (the things they think you all ready
>> > know?). Things like how to clarify blackstrap molasses? And what
>> > portions of DUNDER to be used? All those topics should be asked
>> > about!! The flavor of my rum is very heavy with strong nasal
>> > overtones even though it has a light golden color despite I add no
>> > spices, apart from some resins and USA oak, home roasted.
>> > .............................
>> > I'm going to have one last try before Christmas. And, if that
>> > doesn't work, I may throw in the towel and settle for an alternative.
>> > Having said that, it would be just as easy to go the Molasses route?
>> > ............... If you can get molasses cheap enough, and you got a
>> > pot still, I say keep going, its not that hard once you get your head
>> > whats rum is all about…. Recycling the Dunder, (not backset, not sour
>> > mash, not trub or yeast crap at the bottom), clear/light dunder. Use
>> > it like water. THE molases wash loves it but don't belive the SG
>> > mesurements, they will be way out as to the dunder and the molasses.
>> > Look here what cleared light dunder looks like.
>> > http://tinyurl.com/5ztqx5
>> > ..............................
>> > Are you a habitual Rum maker Knarl? I've had "neaters" in the RN back
>> > in 1956 and didn't particularly like it. But these days, I drown Capt
>> > Morgan with 3 parts Coke and prefer it to most other spirits.
>> > Good Wishes,
>> > Tony
>> > ................
>> > Cheers
>> > Marc
>> > btw, please ask or post the in between questions to get a better idea!
>Some time ago I asked my molasses suppler if I could get unwashedluckily it's available in dry yeast form from White Labs:
>sugar cane stalks so I could try to propagate the sugar cane yeast
>but I live too far from the areas that grow it, but was good to hear
>that you liked it. I might have to try harder to get it now that I
>know its tasty as well.
Danstil EDV 493
Active dried yeast which was isolated and selected by INRA Guadeloupe on cane molasses. For use in beverage fermentations. Available in 400 gram package.
>Like I have mentioned previously aboutWell, we had a 1800 gallon pot still that we would load the wash into along with around 400 gallons of dunder. After the stripping run we would let the still cool overnight then pump off 400 gallons of dunder for the next run. We pumped it off from an outlet several feet from the bottom of the pot so no sediment. Cleaning out the pot still was quite a chore, there would be big chunks of cooked molasses solids the consistency of brownies, we would have to climb inside and hand out big sheets of this stuff. We called it Elvis' Colon. :^}
>bottling the dunder is it give the dunder time to settle out any
>sediments like yeast that had not settled out the fermented wash.
>Did you have a centrifuge where worked? I would love one but can't
>afford one so time is cheaper.
>Clarifying the molasses with hot water just drops any crap and sludgewe used only grade A molasses for human consumption, fresh from local sugar cane, really yummy stuff. After we diluted it with hot water to make it easier to transfer I would see the a tiny bit of the "metal shavings" at the bottom of the mixer you talk about, they would just stay at the bottom and not get sucked out into the fermenter.
>in the molasses, for me I get mainly get a sand like grit and metal
>filings. If your getting high quality molasses or high test
>One last thing Mike, can you please explain the paragraph below, I"> Also the redistillation of heads and tails and adding the center
>don't know what you mean about your method of cuts, but I would like
>to understand what you are saying.
cut back to the spirt run is as important if not more than dunder.
The best rum we ever made there was 50% center cut of a heads and
tails redistillation and 50% rum made with the wild sugar cane yeast.
A year and a half in a small barrel and it is phenomenal."
We would save all the heads and tails from the spirit runs, then once every several weeks we would take all the heads and tails (about 100 gallons), dilute them down a bit (to around 100 proof) then redistill them, discarding the heads and tails of this run. The hearts of this run are VERY intense flavored but need years of aging to become palatable. Normally we would just blend it back into future spirit runs but occasionally we would add a large amount into a barrel with another rum specifically for long term aging. None of that is available to the public yet, maybe in a few years.
Hope this helps. -m