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Aging in Glass

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  • link2d
    Y all, Two years ago I ran a Nectarine and a Zinfandel in my pot still to produce brandy. I didn t have the barrel capacity to age. Both batches were put
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 26, 2008
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      Y'all,

      Two years ago I ran a Nectarine and a Zinfandel in my pot still to
      produce brandy. I didn't have the barrel capacity to age. Both
      batches were put into one gallon glass jugs with equal amounts charred
      oak chips and French oak chips. After 1-1/2 yrs both taste like the
      original with a hit of oak. Nice color though. Of course brandy won't
      breathe in glass. About 6-8 months ago I was faced with having to put
      much of my 'stuff' in storage. I wasn't sure what to do concerning
      these two batches. I decided to pull the bottle caps and replace with
      cotton balls to allow for breathing. Wasn't sure if this would allow
      too much oxygen. My addition concern was excessive 'angels share'. The
      storage room is very dark & 65F-ish(18 C). I was able to dig these
      batches out this afternoon. I was expecting the worst.
      Result: The Nectarine became very rich and smooth. You would think
      that I added sugar to the Nectarine. The Zin is fabulous. All of the
      'new brandy' alcohol taste evaporated and very strong Zin flavors
      mellowed out. Some of my 10 yr old stuff that isn't this good.
      I may have discovered a new process for myself. I will certainly try
      this again.

      The Linkster.
    • Harry
      ... charred ... won t ... put ... with ... allow ... The ... the ... try ... That s GREAT feedback, Link. Empirical testing is worth a TON of theory. I think
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 26, 2008
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "link2d" <link2d@...> wrote:
        >
        > Y'all,
        >
        > Two years ago I ran a Nectarine and a Zinfandel in my pot still to
        > produce brandy. I didn't have the barrel capacity to age. Both
        > batches were put into one gallon glass jugs with equal amounts
        charred
        > oak chips and French oak chips. After 1-1/2 yrs both taste like the
        > original with a hit of oak. Nice color though. Of course brandy
        won't
        > breathe in glass. About 6-8 months ago I was faced with having to
        put
        > much of my 'stuff' in storage. I wasn't sure what to do concerning
        > these two batches. I decided to pull the bottle caps and replace
        with
        > cotton balls to allow for breathing. Wasn't sure if this would
        allow
        > too much oxygen. My addition concern was excessive 'angels share'.
        The
        > storage room is very dark & 65F-ish(18 C). I was able to dig these
        > batches out this afternoon. I was expecting the worst.
        > Result: The Nectarine became very rich and smooth. You would think
        > that I added sugar to the Nectarine. The Zin is fabulous. All of
        the
        > 'new brandy' alcohol taste evaporated and very strong Zin flavors
        > mellowed out. Some of my 10 yr old stuff that isn't this good.
        > I may have discovered a new process for myself. I will certainly
        try
        > this again.
        >
        > The Linkster.
        >



        That's GREAT feedback, Link. Empirical testing is worth a TON of
        theory. I think this really adds to the belief that interaction of
        the spirit with air (or oxygen) over time is the key to making a MUCH
        better personal product. Experimenters (and commercials too) please
        take note! I'd like to hear from others who have replicated (or
        stumbled on) these results.

        Slainte! regards Harry
      • Andrew Bugal
        Not being smug here but I always store my product on the shelf - uncapped, in 2-litre glass jugs after manufacture for at least a week.   I subscribe to the
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 27, 2008
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          Not being smug here but I always store my product on the shelf - uncapped, in 2-litre glass jugs after manufacture for at least a week.
           
          I subscribe to the old school of letting your wine "breathe" for at least an hour after opening.  It dramatically improves the flavour.  Experiment with some red wine cleanskins.  Sample some immediately after opening and then an hour later.  If you start with a reasonable cleanskin, you will find that hour of breathing will have raised it on the social scale.
           
          Regards,
           
          Bwyze

          --- On Mon, 27/10/08, Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
          From: Harry <gnikomson2000@...>
          Subject: [Distillers] Re: Aging in Glass
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Received: Monday, 27 October, 2008, 12:32 PM

          --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "link2d" <link2d@...> wrote:
          >
          > Y'all,
          >
          > Two years ago I ran a Nectarine and a Zinfandel in my pot still to
          > produce brandy. I didn't have the barrel capacity to age. Both
          > batches were put into one gallon glass jugs with equal amounts
          charred
          > oak chips and French oak chips. After 1-1/2 yrs both taste like the
          > original with a hit of oak. Nice color though. Of course brandy
          won't
          > breathe in glass. About 6-8 months ago I was faced with having to
          put
          > much of my 'stuff' in storage. I wasn't sure what to do concerning
          > these two batches. I decided to pull the bottle caps and replace
          with
          > cotton balls to allow for breathing. Wasn't sure if this would
          allow
          > too much oxygen. My addition concern was excessive 'angels share'.
          The
          > storage room is very dark & 65F-ish(18 C). I was able to dig these
          > batches out this afternoon. I was expecting the worst.
          > Result: The Nectarine became very rich and smooth. You would think
          > that I added sugar to the Nectarine. The Zin is fabulous. All of
          the
          > 'new brandy' alcohol taste evaporated and very strong Zin flavors
          > mellowed out. Some of my 10 yr old stuff that isn't this good.
          > I may have discovered a new process for myself. I will certainly
          try
          > this again.
          >
          > The Linkster.
          >

          That's GREAT feedback, Link. Empirical testing is worth a TON of
          theory. I think this really adds to the belief that interaction of
          the spirit with air (or oxygen) over time is the key to making a MUCH
          better personal product. Experimenters (and commercials too) please
          take note! I'd like to hear from others who have replicated (or
          stumbled on) these results.

          Slainte! regards Harry



          Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail.
        • castillo.alex2008
          ... Hi Well, since you are interested in real experiments I think this must be published now. Some people say that aging is not possible in glass and without
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 27, 2008
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            > That's GREAT feedback, Link. Empirical testing is worth a TON of
            > theory. I think this really adds to the belief that interaction of
            > the spirit with air (or oxygen) over time is the key to making a MUCH
            > better personal product. Experimenters (and commercials too) please
            > take note! I'd like to hear from others who have replicated (or
            > stumbled on) these results.
            >
            > Slainte! regards Harry
            >


            Hi

            Well, since you are interested in real experiments I think this must be
            published now. Some people say that aging is not possible in glass and
            without oak. False. Evidence contradicts this. The first alcohol I
            ever distilled was for a project in the university in my college
            years. This project was about to get alcohol from rice. Only DAP and
            Magnesium sulfate were used for the rice that was mashed using
            hydrochloric acid at low concentration and baker´s yeast was use to
            ferment the mash neutralized with calcium hydroxide and fermented at PH
            4. At that time I was not interested in getting my own hooch (and also
            probably coudn´t afford it) and my knowledge was not compared to the
            one I have today. After the spirits run a bad smelling alcohol was
            collected without any separation of foreshots, heads, hearts and
            tails. The goal was to get the alcohol and period. I collected all I
            could at the moment (less than 100 ml in total), put it in a glass
            bottle and forgot it. That was in 1995. Today when I open the same
            bottle, a nice, fine brandy like bouquet can be smelled. Taste? I
            don´t know and among us maybe I´d never know. So Alcohol do age in
            glass...if you wait looooong enough.

            Alex
          • waljaco
            Acids (some are carried over) react with the alcohol to form esters. East European vodka distillers add ascorbic and succinic acids to hasten the process.
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 27, 2008
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              Acids (some are carried over) react with the alcohol to form esters.
              East European vodka distillers add ascorbic and succinic acids to
              hasten the process. Apparently you need 2 months.
              wal
              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
              <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
              >
              > > That's GREAT feedback, Link. Empirical testing is worth a TON of
              > > theory. I think this really adds to the belief that interaction
              of
              > > the spirit with air (or oxygen) over time is the key to making a
              MUCH
              > > better personal product. Experimenters (and commercials too)
              please
              > > take note! I'd like to hear from others who have replicated (or
              > > stumbled on) these results.
              > >
              > > Slainte! regards Harry
              > >
              >
              >
              > Hi
              >
              > Well, since you are interested in real experiments I think this
              must be
              > published now. Some people say that aging is not possible in glass
              and
              > without oak. False. Evidence contradicts this. The first alcohol
              I
              > ever distilled was for a project in the university in my college
              > years. This project was about to get alcohol from rice. Only DAP
              and
              > Magnesium sulfate were used for the rice that was mashed using
              > hydrochloric acid at low concentration and baker´s yeast was use to
              > ferment the mash neutralized with calcium hydroxide and fermented
              at PH
              > 4. At that time I was not interested in getting my own hooch (and
              also
              > probably coudn´t afford it) and my knowledge was not compared to
              the
              > one I have today. After the spirits run a bad smelling alcohol was
              > collected without any separation of foreshots, heads, hearts and
              > tails. The goal was to get the alcohol and period. I collected
              all I
              > could at the moment (less than 100 ml in total), put it in a glass
              > bottle and forgot it. That was in 1995. Today when I open the same
              > bottle, a nice, fine brandy like bouquet can be smelled. Taste? I
              > don´t know and among us maybe I´d never know. So Alcohol do age in
              > glass...if you wait looooong enough.
              >
              > Alex
              >
            • Harry
              ... esters. ... glass ... alcohol ... DAP ... to ... (and ... was ... glass ... same ... I ... in ... So, are we looking at yet another method of forcing the
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 27, 2008
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                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                >
                > Acids (some are carried over) react with the alcohol to form
                esters.
                > East European vodka distillers add ascorbic and succinic acids to
                > hasten the process. Apparently you need 2 months.
                > wal
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Well, since you are interested in real experiments I think this
                > must be
                > > published now. Some people say that aging is not possible in
                glass
                > and
                > > without oak. False. Evidence contradicts this. The first
                alcohol
                > I
                > > ever distilled was for a project in the university in my college
                > > years. This project was about to get alcohol from rice. Only
                DAP
                > and
                > > Magnesium sulfate were used for the rice that was mashed using
                > > hydrochloric acid at low concentration and baker´s yeast was use
                to
                > > ferment the mash neutralized with calcium hydroxide and fermented
                > at PH
                > > 4. At that time I was not interested in getting my own hooch
                (and
                > also
                > > probably coudn´t afford it) and my knowledge was not compared to
                > the
                > > one I have today. After the spirits run a bad smelling alcohol
                was
                > > collected without any separation of foreshots, heads, hearts and
                > > tails. The goal was to get the alcohol and period. I collected
                > all I
                > > could at the moment (less than 100 ml in total), put it in a
                glass
                > > bottle and forgot it. That was in 1995. Today when I open the
                same
                > > bottle, a nice, fine brandy like bouquet can be smelled. Taste?
                I
                > > don´t know and among us maybe I´d never know. So Alcohol do age
                in
                > > glass...if you wait looooong enough.
                > >
                > > Alex
                > >
                >


                So, are we looking at yet another method of forcing the
                aging/mellowing/enhancement process? I am aware that certain acids
                react with ethanol to form esters (most esters are very pleasant
                additions). There are guidelines for acidity in wines. But would
                this concept generally have similar results with out spirits
                booze? Perhaps the winemakers can weigh in on this with empirical
                knowledge. Derek?

                Jack Keller says this...

                "Acids and Wine
                Acids give wines their characteristic crisp, slightly tart taste.
                Alcohol, sugars, minerals, and other components moderate the sourness
                of acids and give wines balance. Some acids are naturally present in
                the base ingredients of wines, while others are byproducts of
                fermentation.

                Natural acids have the freshest, purest acid tastes. Among grapes
                they are tartaric, malic and citric. Oxalic acid, found for example
                in rhubarb, is another natural acid. Fermentation acids have milder,
                more complex tastes. The major fermentation acids are lactic,
                succinic and acetic.

                Acidity greatly influences the taste of wine. Therefore, winemakers
                need to understand the roles of the various acids, their occurance in
                common bases for making wines, their tastes, their sufficiency, how
                to measure them, and the principles for adjusting acids when
                necessary."

                There's more, particularly referring to amounts and taste tests,
                here...
                http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp


                Slainte!
                regards Harry
              • Derek Hamlet
                In winemaking the starting ph and titratable acids are very very important because they affect not only the final acid of the wine (verrrrrrrrrrry important),
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 27, 2008
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                  In winemaking the starting ph and titratable
                  acids are very very important because they affect
                  not only the final acid of the wine
                  (verrrrrrrrrrry important), but also the overall
                  fermentation as in production of alcohol and the
                  various flavours that are drawn from the juice and skins.
                  I don't really enjoy white wines much so my experience is mainly with reds.
                  When I get my grapes, I crush them, take off some
                  of the liquid, allow it to settle, rise to room
                  temp. then take the TA (titratable acid). Then I
                  apply table to decide how much acid needs to be
                  added (usually) to achieve the optimum starting TA.
                  After applying my tables I add exactly half of
                  what the formula calls for. My experience and
                  discussions with "real pros" indicates that not
                  all the titrable acids present in the must and or
                  skins is measured. Adding half the indicated
                  amount required nearly always produces the desired end results.
                  It's very easy to add acids and the end of
                  fermentation or just before bottling. It is very
                  hard to reduce acidity without affecting the final results.
                  If initial acidity is too high the only really
                  effective way to reduce them is through dilution.
                  Another factor in fermentation of reds is
                  malolactic fermentation. It is anaerobic and is
                  brought about by adding a malolactic bacillus and
                  then keeping the wine at approx. 70 degrees F for
                  about three months. It not only reduces overall
                  titratable acids but adds a particularly soft mouth feel to the wine.
                  This is particularly noticeable in wines like Australian merlots.
                  I'm a big fan and do this with my merlots, syrahs, malbecs and cabernets.
                  I never do it with Zinfandels or Italian grapes like Sangiovese.
                  Oxygen is not a good thing for aging wines. I
                  had too much wine once and put it in a half
                  filled glass carboy. AFter a year it was
                  blah. I can't remember the chemistry at the
                  moment but I couldn't drink it. The only
                  solution was to add powdered milk, mix the shit
                  out of it, let it settle and then rack off.
                  It was drinkable as a table wine but that's about it.
                  For me, drinking red wine involves after
                  savouring the bouquest to let the wine slowly
                  roll over the palate and down the throat with a
                  little ingestion of air. That way I can enjoy or
                  experience all the flavours and bouquets. I'm
                  guessing that is not much different than experiencing a truly fine aged whisky.
                  As Harry can attest to, the aging process
                  involves chemical changes involving interactions
                  between various chemical compounds in the finished product.
                  I oak the daylights out of my heavy red
                  wines. While they are drinkable after a year, they are pretty oaky still.
                  After, five years they are getting
                  interesting. After ten years they start to win competitions hands down.
                  A lot of modern wines are produced using
                  techniques like delestagge. They are fermented
                  very quickly at higher temps. During that
                  process the must is turned requently which adds
                  oxygen and promotes extraction of skin
                  components. Seeds are removed every time this
                  happens. The wines mature quickly are usually
                  very drinkable but, over time they do not develop
                  the unique and interesting features of slowly
                  fermented wines, heavily oaked that then age for years and years.
                  They seem imho, to age well for about a year and
                  then just stop never developing those incredible depths of old reds.

                  With my homemade whiskys I've tried to age them
                  quicker by putting them in glass carboys with
                  carbon and toasted oak staves and then putting
                  the carboy on a lowly revolving turntable. As
                  yet, I do not have empirical data. I have the
                  turntable, but haven't yet come up with the skill
                  of methodology to get the turntable to move slow
                  enough or steady enough for what I want. I can
                  step down the rotation of an electric motor with
                  a variac all right, but at the incredibly slow
                  rotation of the turntable that I desire, the
                  turntable seems to just stop turning. Anything
                  faster just scare the bejeebus out of me.
                  I'm thinking I'm going to have to develop
                  something with pulleys to achieve my objective.
                  I think the slow rotation will mimic a kind of
                  speeded up brownian motion of molecules.

                  It's late and time to have a glass of limoncello before bed.

                  At 08:33 PM 10/27/2008, you wrote:

                  >--- In
                  ><mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>Distillers@yahoogroups.com,
                  >"waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Acids (some are carried over) react with the alcohol to form
                  >esters.
                  > > East European vodka distillers add ascorbic and succinic acids to
                  > > hasten the process. Apparently you need 2 months.
                  > > wal
                  > > --- In
                  > <mailto:Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>Distillers@yahoogroups.com,
                  > "castillo.alex2008"
                  > > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Well, since you are interested in real experiments I think this
                  > > must be
                  > > > published now. Some people say that aging is not possible in
                  >glass
                  > > and
                  > > > without oak. False. Evidence contradicts this. The first
                  >alcohol
                  > > I
                  > > > ever distilled was for a project in the university in my college
                  > > > years. This project was about to get alcohol from rice. Only
                  >DAP
                  > > and
                  > > > Magnesium sulfate were used for the rice that was mashed using
                  > > > hydrochloric acid at low concentration and baker´s yeast was use
                  >to
                  > > > ferment the mash neutralized with calcium hydroxide and fermented
                  > > at PH
                  > > > 4. At that time I was not interested in getting my own hooch
                  >(and
                  > > also
                  > > > probably coudn´t afford it) and my knowledge was not compared to
                  > > the
                  > > > one I have today. After the spirits run a bad smelling alcohol
                  >was
                  > > > collected without any separation of foreshots, heads, hearts and
                  > > > tails. The goal was to get the alcohol and period. I collected
                  > > all I
                  > > > could at the moment (less than 100 ml in total), put it in a
                  >glass
                  > > > bottle and forgot it. That was in 1995. Today when I open the
                  >same
                  > > > bottle, a nice, fine brandy like bouquet can be smelled. Taste?
                  >I
                  > > > don´t know and among us maybe I´d never know. So Alcohol do age
                  >in
                  > > > glass...if you wait looooong enough.
                  > > >
                  > > > Alex
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >So, are we looking at yet another method of forcing the
                  >aging/mellowing/enhancement process? I am aware that certain acids
                  >react with ethanol to form esters (most esters are very pleasant
                  >additions). There are guidelines for acidity in wines. But would
                  >this concept generally have similar results with out spirits
                  >booze? Perhaps the winemakers can weigh in on this with empirical
                  >knowledge. Derek?
                  >
                  >Jack Keller says this...
                  >
                  >"Acids and Wine
                  >Acids give wines their characteristic crisp, slightly tart taste.
                  >Alcohol, sugars, minerals, and other components moderate the sourness
                  >of acids and give wines balance. Some acids are naturally present in
                  >the base ingredients of wines, while others are byproducts of
                  >fermentation.
                  >
                  >Natural acids have the freshest, purest acid tastes. Among grapes
                  >they are tartaric, malic and citric. Oxalic acid, found for example
                  >in rhubarb, is another natural acid. Fermentation acids have milder,
                  >more complex tastes. The major fermentation acids are lactic,
                  >succinic and acetic.
                  >
                  >Acidity greatly influences the taste of wine. Therefore, winemakers
                  >need to understand the roles of the various acids, their occurance in
                  >common bases for making wines, their tastes, their sufficiency, how
                  >to measure them, and the principles for adjusting acids when
                  >necessary."
                  >
                  >There's more, particularly referring to amounts and taste tests,
                  >here...
                  ><http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp>http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
                  >
                  >Slainte!
                  >regards Harry
                  >
                  >
                  >No virus found in this incoming message.
                  >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                  >Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.4/1749
                  >- Release Date: 10/27/2008 7:57 AM

                  Derek
                • waljaco
                  Yeasts produce acids. That is why an alkali buffer is recommended for a sugar wash. wal ... college ... use ... fermented ... to ... and ... collected ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 27, 2008
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                    Yeasts produce acids. That is why an alkali buffer is recommended for
                    a sugar wash.
                    wal
                    -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Acids (some are carried over) react with the alcohol to form
                    > esters.
                    > > East European vodka distillers add ascorbic and succinic acids to
                    > > hasten the process. Apparently you need 2 months.
                    > > wal
                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                    > > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Well, since you are interested in real experiments I think this
                    > > must be
                    > > > published now. Some people say that aging is not possible in
                    > glass
                    > > and
                    > > > without oak. False. Evidence contradicts this. The first
                    > alcohol
                    > > I
                    > > > ever distilled was for a project in the university in my
                    college
                    > > > years. This project was about to get alcohol from rice. Only
                    > DAP
                    > > and
                    > > > Magnesium sulfate were used for the rice that was mashed using
                    > > > hydrochloric acid at low concentration and baker´s yeast was
                    use
                    > to
                    > > > ferment the mash neutralized with calcium hydroxide and
                    fermented
                    > > at PH
                    > > > 4. At that time I was not interested in getting my own hooch
                    > (and
                    > > also
                    > > > probably coudn´t afford it) and my knowledge was not compared
                    to
                    > > the
                    > > > one I have today. After the spirits run a bad smelling alcohol
                    > was
                    > > > collected without any separation of foreshots, heads, hearts
                    and
                    > > > tails. The goal was to get the alcohol and period. I
                    collected
                    > > all I
                    > > > could at the moment (less than 100 ml in total), put it in a
                    > glass
                    > > > bottle and forgot it. That was in 1995. Today when I open the
                    > same
                    > > > bottle, a nice, fine brandy like bouquet can be smelled.
                    Taste?
                    > I
                    > > > don´t know and among us maybe I´d never know. So Alcohol do
                    age
                    > in
                    > > > glass...if you wait looooong enough.
                    > > >
                    > > > Alex
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > So, are we looking at yet another method of forcing the
                    > aging/mellowing/enhancement process? I am aware that certain acids
                    > react with ethanol to form esters (most esters are very pleasant
                    > additions). There are guidelines for acidity in wines. But would
                    > this concept generally have similar results with out spirits
                    > booze? Perhaps the winemakers can weigh in on this with
                    empirical
                    > knowledge. Derek?
                    >
                    > Jack Keller says this...
                    >
                    > "Acids and Wine
                    > Acids give wines their characteristic crisp, slightly tart taste.
                    > Alcohol, sugars, minerals, and other components moderate the
                    sourness
                    > of acids and give wines balance. Some acids are naturally present
                    in
                    > the base ingredients of wines, while others are byproducts of
                    > fermentation.
                    >
                    > Natural acids have the freshest, purest acid tastes. Among grapes
                    > they are tartaric, malic and citric. Oxalic acid, found for example
                    > in rhubarb, is another natural acid. Fermentation acids have
                    milder,
                    > more complex tastes. The major fermentation acids are lactic,
                    > succinic and acetic.
                    >
                    > Acidity greatly influences the taste of wine. Therefore, winemakers
                    > need to understand the roles of the various acids, their occurance
                    in
                    > common bases for making wines, their tastes, their sufficiency, how
                    > to measure them, and the principles for adjusting acids when
                    > necessary."
                    >
                    > There's more, particularly referring to amounts and taste tests,
                    > here...
                    > http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
                    >
                    >
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry
                    >
                  • Jack
                    What does the term cleanskin mean. Jack Ensor
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 29, 2008
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                      What does the term "cleanskin" mean.
                      Jack Ensor

                      Andrew Bugal wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Not being smug here but I always store my product on the shelf -
                      > uncapped, in 2-litre glass jugs after manufacture for at least a week.
                      >
                      > I subscribe to the old school of letting your wine "breathe" for at
                      > least an hour after opening. It dramatically improves the flavour.
                      > Experiment with some red wine cleanskins. Sample some immediately
                      > after opening and then an hour later. If you start with a reasonable
                      > cleanskin, you will find that hour of breathing will have raised it on
                      > the social scale.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Bwyze
                      >
                    • Andrew Bugal
                      Hi Jack,   Cleanskin means a bottle of wine without a manufacturers label on it.  It is a clean bottle of wine.   They are usually produced
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 29, 2008
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                        Hi Jack,
                         
                        Cleanskin means a bottle of wine without a manufacturers label on it.  It is a "clean" bottle of wine.
                         
                        They are usually produced by manufacturers who buy grapes from all over and combine and blend the product to make a wine.  The usual cost is $2 to $6 a bottle with a varying degree of quality in that spread.
                         
                        So basically, you are paying for the generic product and not some well-known vinters product.
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Bwyze

                        --- On Thu, 30/10/08, Jack <jensor4@...> wrote:
                        From: Jack <jensor4@...>
                        Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Aging in Glass
                        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Received: Thursday, 30 October, 2008, 1:05 AM

                        What does the term "cleanskin" mean.
                        Jack Ensor

                        Andrew Bugal wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Not being smug here but I always store my product on the shelf -
                        > uncapped, in 2-litre glass jugs after manufacture for at least a week.
                        >
                        > I subscribe to the old school of letting your wine "breathe" for at
                        > least an hour after opening. It dramatically improves the flavour.
                        > Experiment with some red wine cleanskins. Sample some immediately
                        > after opening and then an hour later. If you start with a reasonable
                        > cleanskin, you will find that hour of breathing will have raised it on
                        > the social scale.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Bwyze
                        >



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                      • rye_junkie1
                        ... it. It is a clean bottle of wine. ... over and combine and blend the product to make a wine. The usual cost is $2 to $6 a bottle with a varying
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 29, 2008
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                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Bugal <bwyze44@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Jack,
                          > Â
                          > Cleanskin means a bottle of wine without a manufacturers label on
                          it. It is a "clean" bottle of wine.
                          > Â
                          > They are usually produced by manufacturers who buy grapes from all
                          over and combine and blend the product to make a wine. The usual
                          cost is $2 to $6 a bottle with a varying degree of quality in that spread.
                          > Â
                          > So basically, you are paying for the generic product and not some
                          well-known vinters product.
                          > Â
                          > Regards,
                          > Â
                          > Bwyze

                          I bought a bottle in a health food store once labeled "Cheap Red Wine".
                          It was in fact, exactly that.

                          Mason
                        • Vini
                          Also two years ago I ran apple cider through my pot still. 200 liter were distilled twice to some 10-12 liter of hearts. I put in finger sized toasted oak
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 1, 2008
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                            Also two years ago I ran apple cider through my pot still. >200 liter
                            were distilled twice to some 10-12 liter of hearts. I put in finger
                            sized toasted oak bits at ~65%. First a few, then more and more until
                            I had maybe 25 or so. Steadily decreasing strength to ~40%. Half a
                            year later I thought it was wy enough with oak and stopped adding and
                            instead removing all pieces. I also learned here, from Harry about
                            using forced aeration with an aquarium pump (no probs with rubber
                            since the pump is 40 years). I even addded the tails for more
                            complexity, after some months of aeration. Unfotunately(?) I ran my 3
                            liters of apple heads in a 95,6 distillation. It might have improved
                            with air. But who knows.

                            Anyway, my Calvados has steadily become better and better. The
                            harshness is gone now and the oak has married well with the apple. A
                            nice sweetness has evolved and you can see that green tinge which is
                            commen in good calva.

                            And I still have 6 liters!!!! :)

                            Now I've started aerating my unoaked plum slivovitz. There is wee too
                            much tails in it, but with aeration it might turn out well.

                            Thanx Harry and group!
                            /Vini

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "link2d" <link2d@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Y'all,
                            >
                            > Two years ago I ran a Nectarine and a Zinfandel in my pot still to
                            > produce brandy. I didn't have the barrel capacity to age. Both
                            > batches were put into one gallon glass jugs with equal amounts charred
                            > oak chips and French oak chips. After 1-1/2 yrs both taste like the
                            > original with a hit of oak. Nice color though. Of course brandy won't
                            > breathe in glass. About 6-8 months ago I was faced with having to put
                            > much of my 'stuff' in storage. I wasn't sure what to do concerning
                            > these two batches. I decided to pull the bottle caps and replace with
                            > cotton balls to allow for breathing. Wasn't sure if this would allow
                            > too much oxygen. My addition concern was excessive 'angels share'. The
                            > storage room is very dark & 65F-ish(18 C). I was able to dig these
                            > batches out this afternoon. I was expecting the worst.
                            > Result: The Nectarine became very rich and smooth. You would think
                            > that I added sugar to the Nectarine. The Zin is fabulous. All of the
                            > 'new brandy' alcohol taste evaporated and very strong Zin flavors
                            > mellowed out. Some of my 10 yr old stuff that isn't this good.
                            > I may have discovered a new process for myself. I will certainly try
                            > this again.
                            >
                            > The Linkster.
                            >
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