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Aerating you product / equipment heads-up

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  • Harry
    I see some of you are going ahead w/- experiments. Some things to consider, all of which I have tested empirically... 1. Pump type: Fisk tank aquarium type
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 26, 2008
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      I see some of you are going ahead w/- experiments.  Some things to consider, all of which I have tested empirically...

      1.  Pump type:

      Fisk tank aquarium type pumps have black rubber flexible buckets or diaphrams that will give a rubbery aftertaste to your product.  If you've got access to the Australian rum "Inner Circle" Red Dot 40%,  you'll know what I mean (good rum despite that flaw).

      Peristaltic type pumps are great for moving liquids and semi-solids, but are very poor at moving air or gases.  And they're slow as molasses.

      The best type of pump is a piston pump such as the 12 volt tyre inflators sold by auto shops but you have to set them up right (read on).


      2.  Tubing:

      If you must use flexible tubing, make sure it is inert to ethanol.
      Viton tubing and the fuel-grade plastic tubing sold by auto supplies is fine.  It is also expensive.  DON'T use any other cheap type that may leach plasticisers.  If in doubt, do a test. 

      Plastics test for leaching:
      Cut up 6 inches of tubing into 1 inch pieces, put them in a glass screwtop jar and cover them with +85% hearts spirit.  Shake the jar every day for 3 days.  Then dilute the jar contents w/- distilled water to 30% a/v.  If it clouds (opaque), then the plastic is NOT suitable.

      If you are handy w/- copper, rig up an all-copper setup from the pump to the filter jar (see below) to the spirit aeration container.

       

      3.  Spirit receivers:

      The container you use for aging is important.  Airtight Glass Jars, stainless kegs or oak barrels are best.  I have used HDPE ex-bulk-spirits 20 litre drums (as per the diagram below) but that's my personal choice.  I've had no problems but again if you're in doubt, either don't use 'em, or do a plastics test first as outlined above.

       

      4.  Bubblers or diffusers:

      Use Sintered Stainless Steel airstones.   DO NOT use those plastic & glue things they use for fish aquariums.  Copper tubing is also good.  It can be fabricated w/- minute holes.  Use a tiny computer board drillbit (Dick Smith's Electronics, Tandy, Radio Shack, Jaycar).

      Plastic tubing (properly tested) also works.  Just poke a sewing needle through it a few dozen times, like one of those garden soaker hoses.  Weight it w/- a few short sections of copper tube sleeved over the plastic tubing, to stop it floating to the surface of your spirit.  Slightly crimp the copper tube sections so they hold onto the plastic tubing in place.  DON'T crimp too much or you will cut off the airflow.

      Make the diffuser tube into a ring shape, then attach it to the air feed so that the ring is fed from both ends. The gas pressure then will be equal at all holes, not too much at the first holes and too little at the last holes like you get w/- a straight diffuser.


      5.  Pathogens and airborne contaminants (most important):

      Always use an airlock on your spirit container to keep out dust & insects.  Don't let the lock fluid evaporate.

      The stream of air you are pumping into your spirit needs to be filtered, and sanitized.  This prevents anything nasty getting into the product.  A simple sealed jar w/- a little cotton wool soaked in ethanol will do the trick.  Like this...

       

      Enjoy.

       

      Slainte!
      regards Harry

    • Harry
      ... Astute stillers will have noted that this bubbler setup can do double service as a fermentation aerator. :) Slainte! regards Harry
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 27, 2008
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

         

        Astute 'stillers will have noted that this bubbler setup can do double service as a fermentation aerator.  :)

         

        Slainte!
        regards Harry

      • castillo.alex2008
        Hi Harry Nice setup. How much time do you recommend? minutes? hours? How many times? just once? Is the angel´s share considerable? Thanks, Alex
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 27, 2008
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          Hi Harry

          Nice setup.

          How much time do you recommend? minutes? hours?

          How many times? just once?

          Is the "angel´s share" considerable?

          Thanks,

          Alex
        • Harry
          ... Alex, Short post, loaded questions. But long answer needed. :) Your questions are the reason we are exploring this topic. There is no standard or
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 27, 2008
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            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Harry
            >
            > Nice setup. 
            >
            > How much time do you recommend? minutes? hours?
            >
            > How many times? just once?
            >
            > Is the "angel´s share" considerable?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Alex
            >

             

            Alex,

            Short post, loaded questions.  But long answer needed.  :)

            Your questions are the reason we are exploring this topic.  There is no standard or benchmark yet set down for the hobby.  I did some experimenting years ago but the aeration time was never consistent, and I had other things to follow up on.

            To me it seems there are two distinct aeration questions here.  I guess we need to decide just what it is we are trying to achieve.

            1.  Foreshots/heads evaporation?

            2.  Product maturation/aging?

            Or both.

            Each would require somewhat different aeration procedures in my opinion.  To evaporate foreshots would require rapid air infusion, whereas accelerated aging would need to be more in line with natural barrel aeration physics and oak barrels/casks/chips, only performed quicker.

            Thus we need to establish a baseline from which to launch our experiments.  The most reliable documentation and figures I can find are these:

             

            Evaporative loss is reduced by increasing barrel room humidity.  Decreasing barrel room temperature also reduces ethanol and water loss, but refrigerative air-conditioning also reduces humidity.

            In addition to the liquid-phase loss due to capillarity, Ethanol and water vapour also permeate out of wine-filled barrels in the gas phase.  The rate depends on the vapour-pressure of each inside the barrel, which in turn depends on the wine temperature.  The cooler and more humid the barrel store, the less the ethanol and water loss.

            Air and O2 saturated water are equivalent oxygen sources for wet membrane permeation, (Henry's Law, dissolved gases), so a water-saturated barrel passes oxygen at an "undiminished" rate.

            French barrique winebarrels (barrique = 225 litres, about 300 bottles):  The natural rate of permeation of oxygen into a new French Oak Barrique is about 20cc of O2 per litre of wine per year (very slow).

            Rum is barrelled at 85% a/v and reduces to 68% a/v over 4 years in a tropical climate (volume loss unknown).  Scotch whisky is barrelled at 78% a/v and loses an average of 2% of LIQUID VOLUME, not strength, per year, in a cold wet climate.  Most Scotch malts of 12yo have a finished cask strength around 55% - 60% a/v.  All of this would seem to confirm the statements above about storage conditions and loss rates (Angel's share).

            But to go back a step to foreshots removal.  A 20 litre low-wines charge (~30% a/v) at 2nd distillation yields approximately 6 litres of spirit suitable for further aging/aeration/maturation.
            If we accept the maxim that 50ml is enough to discard as foreshots (talking total reflux foreshots concentration here), and a nominal 500ml removed as heads, then we can begin experiments based on VOLUME LOSS. 
            If we accept that brown spirits are barrelled at somewhere between 78% and 85%,  then we can begin experiments based on STRENGTH LOSS.

            White spirits are a special case.   White rums are usually aged a while (1yr?) in oak then carbon-filtered to remove the colour.  So they could be included in our proposed foreshots/heads evaporation experiments and our maturation experiments.
            However Vodka type white spirits are NOT normally aged, but are distilled to 90%-to-95% a/v., then reduced with demineralised water to bottling strength.  They could be included in the  foreshots/heads evaporation experiments, but not the maturation experiments. 
            Grain Neutral Spirits (GNS) for blending purposes are unaged.  They could be treated just as Vodka.

             

            So to the experiments: 

            If we DON'T remove the foreshot/heads during distillation, but instead  we remove these light fractions via aeration (bubbler), then we should begin experiments by trying full aeration until there's an evaporative loss of between 300ml and 500ml, depending on how much heads we would like to leave in for taste (and hangover).  That is the basis I would start with.

            As for maturation, that's a different set of experiments.  Experiments re maturation would use oak barrels or casks floating in a surrounding bath of water to take advantage of Henry's Law on dissolved gases.  This water bath can be temperature controlled quite easily, and the humidity surrounding the barrel is total (wet 100%).  The Angel's share losses should be greatly diminished.  It has been done before on a commercial scale
            (see http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/How-Barrels-Work/ ) but I'm not aware of anything in the hobby scale.  It needs more investigation.

            The above link will give some leads on aeration and oak chips/staves as a maturation accelerator.  This would go well with our preferred glass or stainless containers and the bubbler setup I posted, rather than casks.

            I hope that gets the creative juices flowing for some of us.


            Slainte!
            regards Harry

          • abbababbaccc
            Comments and question added: Cheers, Riku ... So, if we start experimenting with basic whiskey we should look at volumetric loss of 6% of liquid. ... The
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 28, 2008
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              Comments and question added:

              Cheers, Riku


              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
              >
              > Rum is barrelled at 85% a/v and reduces to 68% a/v over 4 years in a
              > tropical climate (volume loss unknown). Scotch whisky is barrelled at
              > 78% a/v and loses an average of 2% of LIQUID VOLUME, not strength, per
              > year, in a cold wet climate. Most Scotch malts of 12yo have a finished
              > cask strength around 55% - 60% a/v. All of this would seem to confirm
              > the statements above about storage conditions and loss rates (Angel's
              > share).
              >

              So, if we start experimenting with basic whiskey we should look at
              volumetric loss of 6% of liquid.



              > But to go back a step to foreshots removal. A 20 litre low-wines charge
              > (~30% a/v) at 2nd distillation yields approximately 6 litres of spirit
              > suitable for further aging/aeration/maturation.
              > If we accept the maxim that 50ml is enough to discard as foreshots
              > (talking total reflux foreshots concentration here), and a nominal 500ml
              > removed as heads, then we can begin experiments based on VOLUME LOSS.

              The volume loss from barrel should be 360ml for three years of aging
              in this case.


              > If we accept that brown spirits are barrelled at somewhere between 78%
              > and 85%, then we can begin experiments based on STRENGTH LOSS.
              >

              Strength loss I would consider inaccurate method as it is very much
              temperature related.



              > However Vodka type white spirits are NOT normally aged, but are
              > distilled to 90%-to-95% a/v., then reduced with demineralised water to
              > bottling strength. They could be included in the foreshots/heads
              > evaporation experiments, but not the maturation experiments.
              > Grain Neutral Spirits (GNS) for blending purposes are unaged. They
              > could be treated just as Vodka.
              >

              I quite disagree here. Vodka in general is shelf stored for several
              weeks to allow proper blending of water and alcohol. Based on my
              experience so far a short bursting with air can cut down this time
              considerably.

              Then a question, are you quite sure that grain neutral is not aged in
              barrels? I've understood it goes through the same aging period as
              whisky before blending. I've even drank some of that (aged) stuff and
              it's pretty good IMO.

              >
              >
              > So to the experiments:
              >
              > If we DON'T remove the foreshot/heads during distillation, but instead
              > we remove these light fractions via aeration (bubbler), then we should
              > begin experiments by trying full aeration until there's an evaporative
              > loss of between 300ml and 500ml, depending on how much heads we would
              > like to leave in for taste (and hangover). That is the basis I would
              > start with.
              >

              Sounds like a plan. Now as has been noted the evaporation rate depends
              on the temperature. I think the key for proper evaporation rate while
              avoiding over aeration (makes for a tasteless hooch) is to control the
              temperature. So far I've aerated in 10-20C temperatures and the
              evaporation rate is really small.

              > As for maturation, that's a different set of experiments. Experiments
              > re maturation would use oak barrels or casks floating in a surrounding
              > bath of water to take advantage of Henry's Law on dissolved gases.
              > This water bath can be temperature controlled quite easily, and the
              > humidity surrounding the barrel is total (wet 100%). The Angel's share
              > losses should be greatly diminished. It has been done before on a
              > commercial scale
              > (see http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/How-Barrels-Work/
              > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/How-Barrels-Work/> ) but I'm
              > not aware of anything in the hobby scale. It needs more investigation.
              >
              > The above link will give some leads on aeration and oak chips/staves as
              > a maturation accelerator. This would go well with our preferred glass
              > or stainless containers and the bubbler setup I posted, rather than
              > casks.
              >

              I see no reason why we couldn't combine the maturation and evaporation
              experiments. Put oak chips into the vessel and start evaporating those
              heads. I believe an increase in temperature would even benefit the
              aging process. Now we just need to figure out an easy way to rise the
              temperature. Heating the spirits from outside would be
              counterproductive as cold air we use for aeration would cool the
              spirits back to air temperature. Using hot air should do the trick.

              A question Harry, you mention rubber membrane in pump giving
              taste/odor. Personally I have not noticed this. Are you referring to a
              circulating pump system here? If the leaching was that bad why would
              we use those pumps in aquariums then?

              > I hope that gets the creative juices flowing for some of us.
              >
              >
              > Slainte!
              > regards Harry
              >
            • Harry
              ... to ... ...........Nothing to disagree with. Just confusion on terminology. The process you are referring to is called Marrying . It is a resting period
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 28, 2008
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                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:

                >
                > Harry said:
                > > However Vodka type white spirits are NOT normally aged, but are
                > > distilled to 90%-to-95% a/v., then reduced with demineralised water to
                > > bottling strength.  They could be included in the  foreshots/heads
                > > evaporation experiments, but not the maturation experiments.
                > > Grain Neutral Spirits (GNS) for blending purposes are unaged.  They
                > > could be treated just as Vodka.
                > >
                > Riku said:
                > I quite disagree here. Vodka in general is shelf stored for several
                > weeks to allow proper blending of water and alcohol. Based on my
                > experience so far a short bursting with air can cut down this time
                > considerably.


                ...........Nothing to disagree with.  Just confusion on terminology.  The process you are referring to is called "Marrying".  It is a resting period where the components of a BLEND (water, GNS and/or malt spirit) are allowed time to meld (combine) at the molecular level.  It is NOT classed as aging or maturation. 
                I did say the vodkas & GNS "could" be included in the evaporation experiments.  Your experiences with short bursts of air are the beginnings of just such an experiment.  Documenting of those experiences (and all experiments) is the key to learning, teaching others, and reproducibility.


                >
                > Then a question, are you quite sure that grain neutral is not aged in
                > barrels? I've understood it goes through the same aging period as
                > whisky before blending. I've even drank some of that (aged) stuff and
                > it's pretty good IMO.


                ................Some may be.  Most surely is not.  There's no real advantage to maturing ethanol of 95%+ used purely for the purpose of blending or lightening a heavy-flavoured malt spirit.  Don't get confused at what GNS is or isn't.  It is "neutral spirit".  It is NOT whisky or rum or vodka.  Its purpose in life is as a blender.  By definition, maturing or barrel aging is allowing ethanolic liquids to pick up components that alter the flavour and/or odour.  If applied to GNS, this would then mean the GNS no longer meets the definition of GNS.  It would be a flavoured spirit (what you drank).

                Besides, maturation of GNS adds considerably to the production costs (barrels, storage space etc.).  However there is no single correct method.  That's why the world has so many different alcohol products.  It is purely an individual distillery's decision, but most distilleries (their Specialist Blender employees, actually) would opt for blending the GNS with their flavoured spirits products and then "Marrying" the resulting liquid.  That's how Canadian whiskies are made.  See here...

                The flavouring of whisky is partially determined by the presence of congeners and fusel oils. Fusel oils are higher alcohols than ethanol, are mildly toxic, and have a strong, disagreeable smell and taste. An excess of fusel oils in whisky is considered a defect. A variety of methods are employed in the distillation process to remove unwanted fusel oils. Traditionally, American distillers focussed on secondary filtration using charcoal, gravel, sand, or linen to subtract undesired distillates. Canadian distillers have traditionally employed column stills which can be controlled to produce an almost pure (and less flavourful) ethanol known as neutral grain spirit or grain neutral spirit (GNS). Flavour is restored by blending the neutral grain spirits with flavouring whiskies.

                [Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/whisky#wp-_note-10 ]


                As a reference, you may like to look up the various classifications of ethanols here...
                http://www.pharmco-prod.com/pages/ep1.pdf

                Product Specs here...
                200 proof  , 192 proof  , 190 proof  , 190 proof General Use  , 180 proof  , 160 proof  , 140 proof  , 40 proof  , 10 proof  .

                They are manufacturers and suppliers of ethanol to industry (including the beverage industry)  They have a vast library of alcohol docs for download.  See here...
                http://www.pharmco-prod.com/pages/techlibrary.html

                 

                > A question Harry, you mention rubber membrane in pump giving
                > taste/odor. Personally I have not noticed this. Are you referring to a
                > circulating pump system here?

                ..............No.  The System used was as I illustrated in previous posted diagrams, but using an aquarium pump (rubber cups) instead of a piston pump.  The burnt rubbery aftertaste was very distinct.  Remember that human tastebuds can detect substances at levels that a Gas Chromatograph cannot detect.  This can be as little as 100 parts per Billion (ppb), not Million.  Mercaptans are a classic example of this (nasty shit).


                 If the leaching was that bad why would
                > we use those pumps in aquariums then?

                ...............I dunno.  I never asked the fish if they noticed anything off.  :)
                Seriously I think the in-tank box, gravel & charcoal filtration used in fish tanks largely counteracts anything that pumps may contribute.  But I wouldn't trust drinking the fish tank water either.  There's lots of other fish-made nasties in there.  Yeccchh.

                Contrary to popular belief, fish can live happily in the most obnoxious environments imaginable.  Because something is recommended for fish to swim in, doesn't necessarily mean it's safe for humans to ingest. 

                HTH

                Slainte!
                regards Harry

              • abbababbaccc
                ... , ... water ... foreshots/heads ... They ... several ... terminology. ... resting ... spirit) ... NOT ... experiences
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 29, 2008
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                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com> ,
                  > "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Harry said:
                  > > > However Vodka type white spirits are NOT normally aged, but are
                  > > > distilled to 90%-to-95% a/v., then reduced with demineralised
                  water
                  > to
                  > > > bottling strength. They could be included in the
                  foreshots/heads
                  > > > evaporation experiments, but not the maturation experiments.
                  > > > Grain Neutral Spirits (GNS) for blending purposes are unaged.
                  They
                  > > > could be treated just as Vodka.
                  > > >
                  > > Riku said:
                  > > I quite disagree here. Vodka in general is shelf stored for
                  several
                  > > weeks to allow proper blending of water and alcohol. Based on my
                  > > experience so far a short bursting with air can cut down this time
                  > > considerably.
                  >
                  >
                  > ...........Nothing to disagree with. Just confusion on
                  terminology.
                  > The process you are referring to is called "Marrying". It is a
                  resting
                  > period where the components of a BLEND (water, GNS and/or malt
                  spirit)
                  > are allowed time to meld (combine) at the molecular level. It is
                  NOT
                  > classed as aging or maturation.
                  > I did say the vodkas & GNS "could" be included in the evaporation
                  > experiments. Your experiences with short bursts of air are the
                  > beginnings of just such an experiment. Documenting of those
                  experiences
                  > (and all experiments) is the key to learning, teaching others, and
                  > reproducibility.
                  >


                  Well I did record the results, done this twice actually. 1 liters of
                  freshly mixed vodka. 15 minutes of bubling with 250 liters of hour
                  pump. Result is vodka with myriads of tiny bubbles. Let it sit for
                  two hours - bubbles are gone and taste is much better than regular
                  freshly blended. After two days it is about the same as one stored
                  for few weeks. So, it does indeed work and I do recommend the
                  procedure.

                  About grain neutral, it's not actually neutral, rather distilled at
                  90+something ABV. That black barrel I tried was definately NOT
                  neutral spirits aged in oak barrel, rather very close to blended
                  whiskey in taste. So, GNS aging could very well be included here if
                  it was possible/reasonable for us to actually make such a product.

                  >
                  > > A question Harry, you mention rubber membrane in pump giving
                  > > taste/odor. Personally I have not noticed this. Are you referring
                  to a
                  > > circulating pump system here?
                  >
                  > ..............No. The System used was as I illustrated in previous
                  > posted diagrams, but using an aquarium pump (rubber cups) instead
                  of a
                  > piston pump. The burnt rubbery aftertaste was very distinct.
                  Remember
                  > that human tastebuds can detect substances at levels that a Gas
                  > Chromatograph cannot detect. This can be as little as 100 parts per
                  > Billion (ppb), not Million. Mercaptans are a classic example of
                  this
                  > (nasty shit).
                  >

                  Hmm, maybe there are differences in pumps then. In my vodka aeration
                  experiments I really should have noticed if there were any rubbery
                  flavor/taste.

                  >
                  > If the leaching was that bad why would
                  > > we use those pumps in aquariums then?
                  >
                  > ...............I dunno. I never asked the fish if they noticed
                  anything
                  > off. :)
                  > Seriously I think the in-tank box, gravel & charcoal filtration
                  used in
                  > fish tanks largely counteracts anything that pumps may contribute.
                  But
                  > I wouldn't trust drinking the fish tank water either. There's lots
                  of
                  > other fish-made nasties in there. Yeccchh.
                  >
                  > Contrary to popular belief, fish can live happily in the most
                  obnoxious
                  > environments imaginable. Because something is recommended for fish
                  to
                  > swim in, doesn't necessarily mean it's safe for humans to ingest.
                  >

                  You mean we shouldn't drink water since fish s**t and f***k in it? ;)
                  I do know what you mean and quite agree, although I'm still a bit
                  sceptical about that rubber membrane thing.

                  Cheers, Riku
                • duds2u
                  I ve been using an aquarium pump off an on for a while to aerate. My observations are that when the pump was new there was definitely a rubbery smell in the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 29, 2008
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                    I've been using an aquarium pump off an on for a while to aerate.

                    My observations are that when the pump was new there was definitely a
                    rubbery smell in the pump output. It never made it through to the
                    spirit though as I used a in-line filter (Harry's idea from a long
                    time ago) where the filter body was packed with cotton wool and
                    dampened with neutral spirit.

                    The pump is about 12 months old now and the rubbery smell has gone
                    but I still use the in-line filter.
                    > >
                    > > > A question Harry, you mention rubber membrane in pump giving
                    > > > taste/odor. Personally I have not noticed this. Are you
                    referring
                    > to a
                    > > > circulating pump system here?
                    > >
                    > > ..............No. The System used was as I illustrated in
                    previous
                    > > posted diagrams, but using an aquarium pump (rubber cups) instead
                    > of a
                    > > piston pump. The burnt rubbery aftertaste was very distinct.
                    > Remember
                    > > that human tastebuds can detect substances at levels that a Gas
                    > > Chromatograph cannot detect. This can be as little as 100 parts
                    per
                    > > Billion (ppb), not Million. Mercaptans are a classic example of
                    > this
                    > > (nasty shit).
                    > >
                    >
                    > Hmm, maybe there are differences in pumps then. In my vodka
                    aeration
                    > experiments I really should have noticed if there were any rubbery
                    > flavor/taste.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > If the leaching was that bad why would
                    > > > we use those pumps in aquariums then?
                    > >
                    > > ...............I dunno. I never asked the fish if they noticed
                    > anything
                    > > off. :)
                    > > Seriously I think the in-tank box, gravel & charcoal filtration
                    > used in
                    > > fish tanks largely counteracts anything that pumps may
                    contribute.
                    > But
                    > > I wouldn't trust drinking the fish tank water either. There's
                    lots
                    > of
                    > > other fish-made nasties in there. Yeccchh.
                    > >
                    > > Contrary to popular belief, fish can live happily in the most
                    > obnoxious
                    > > environments imaginable. Because something is recommended for
                    fish
                    > to
                    > > swim in, doesn't necessarily mean it's safe for humans to ingest.
                    > >
                    >
                    > You mean we shouldn't drink water since fish s**t and f***k in
                    it? ;)
                    > I do know what you mean and quite agree, although I'm still a bit
                    > sceptical about that rubber membrane thing.
                    >
                    > Cheers, Riku
                    >
                  • abbababbaccc
                    Hmm, mine has been used for 100 hours or so. I do not have the filter in line and I have not noticed any problems. What type of diaphragm do you have? Mine is
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 30, 2008
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                      Hmm, mine has been used for 100 hours or so. I do not have the filter
                      in line and I have not noticed any problems. What type of diaphragm
                      do you have? Mine is made of black rubber, manufacturer is Schego.

                      Cheers, Riku

                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "duds2u" <taylormc@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I've been using an aquarium pump off an on for a while to aerate.
                      >
                      > My observations are that when the pump was new there was definitely
                      a
                      > rubbery smell in the pump output. It never made it through to the
                      > spirit though as I used a in-line filter (Harry's idea from a long
                      > time ago) where the filter body was packed with cotton wool and
                      > dampened with neutral spirit.
                      >
                      > The pump is about 12 months old now and the rubbery smell has gone
                      > but I still use the in-line filter.
                      > > >
                      > > > > A question Harry, you mention rubber membrane in pump giving
                      > > > > taste/odor. Personally I have not noticed this. Are you
                      > referring
                      > > to a
                      > > > > circulating pump system here?
                      > > >
                      > > > ..............No. The System used was as I illustrated in
                      > previous
                      > > > posted diagrams, but using an aquarium pump (rubber cups)
                      instead
                      > > of a
                      > > > piston pump. The burnt rubbery aftertaste was very distinct.
                      > > Remember
                      > > > that human tastebuds can detect substances at levels that a Gas
                      > > > Chromatograph cannot detect. This can be as little as 100
                      parts
                      > per
                      > > > Billion (ppb), not Million. Mercaptans are a classic example
                      of
                      > > this
                      > > > (nasty shit).
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > Hmm, maybe there are differences in pumps then. In my vodka
                      > aeration
                      > > experiments I really should have noticed if there were any
                      rubbery
                      > > flavor/taste.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > If the leaching was that bad why would
                      > > > > we use those pumps in aquariums then?
                      > > >
                      > > > ...............I dunno. I never asked the fish if they noticed
                      > > anything
                      > > > off. :)
                      > > > Seriously I think the in-tank box, gravel & charcoal filtration
                      > > used in
                      > > > fish tanks largely counteracts anything that pumps may
                      > contribute.
                      > > But
                      > > > I wouldn't trust drinking the fish tank water either. There's
                      > lots
                      > > of
                      > > > other fish-made nasties in there. Yeccchh.
                      > > >
                      > > > Contrary to popular belief, fish can live happily in the most
                      > > obnoxious
                      > > > environments imaginable. Because something is recommended for
                      > fish
                      > > to
                      > > > swim in, doesn't necessarily mean it's safe for humans to
                      ingest.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > You mean we shouldn't drink water since fish s**t and f***k in
                      > it? ;)
                      > > I do know what you mean and quite agree, although I'm still a bit
                      > > sceptical about that rubber membrane thing.
                      > >
                      > > Cheers, Riku
                      > >
                      >
                    • mavnkaf
                      ... Yes Riku, I m in the same boat, can t smell the rubber from the pump. ( Precision SR-2500 ) air pump. Been using it for last 2 - 3 years. Sorry Harry, I
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 30, 2008
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                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Hmm, mine has been used for 100 hours or so. I do not have the filter
                        > in line and I have not noticed any problems. What type of diaphragm
                        > do you have? Mine is made of black rubber, manufacturer is Schego.
                        >
                        > Cheers, Riku
                        >
                        >

                        Yes Riku, I'm in the same boat, can't smell the rubber from the pump.
                        ( Precision SR-2500 ) air pump. Been using it for last 2 - 3 years.
                        Sorry Harry, I can't smell the rubber at allll!!! BUT I will say my
                        nose is broken. I can't even smell farts, Well, most of the time!

                        Marc
                        With a bad cold, snif:(
                      • homemade12476
                        nothing to do with this harry but what kinda work do you do? not to give you a hardtime but just wanted to know. chris ... filter ... diaphragm ... Schego.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 30, 2008
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                          nothing to do with this harry but what kinda work do you do? not to
                          give you a hardtime but just wanted to know.
                          chris
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hmm, mine has been used for 100 hours or so. I do not have the
                          filter
                          > > in line and I have not noticed any problems. What type of
                          diaphragm
                          > > do you have? Mine is made of black rubber, manufacturer is
                          Schego.
                          > >
                          > > Cheers, Riku
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > Yes Riku, I'm in the same boat, can't smell the rubber from the
                          pump.
                          > ( Precision SR-2500 ) air pump. Been using it for last 2 - 3
                          years.
                          > Sorry Harry, I can't smell the rubber at allll!!! BUT I will say
                          my
                          > nose is broken. I can't even smell farts, Well, most of the time!
                          >
                          > Marc
                          > With a bad cold, snif:(
                          >
                        • Harry
                          ... Baker 25yrs+ (retired), ICT Technician 15yrs+ (semi-retired). Slainte! regards Harry
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 1, 2008
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                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "homemade12476" <homemade12476@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > nothing to do with this harry but what kinda work do you do? not to
                            > give you a hardtime but just wanted to know.
                            > chris


                            Baker 25yrs+ (retired), ICT Technician 15yrs+ (semi-retired).


                            Slainte!
                            regards Harry
                          • abbababbaccc
                            Come to think of it, one source for a rubbery smell could be the hose from filter to the aeration bucket. If there is ethanol in the filter some will
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 1, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Come to think of it, one source for a rubbery smell could be the hose
                              from "filter" to the aeration bucket. If there is ethanol in the
                              filter some will evaporate and condense in the hose. I have noticed
                              that even silicone hoses tend to give some off taste when in contact
                              with 95.6% stuff.

                              Harry, what type of hoses were you using with your aquarium air pump
                              experiments?

                              Cheers, Riku

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hmm, mine has been used for 100 hours or so. I do not have the
                              filter
                              > > in line and I have not noticed any problems. What type of
                              diaphragm
                              > > do you have? Mine is made of black rubber, manufacturer is Schego.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers, Riku
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > Yes Riku, I'm in the same boat, can't smell the rubber from the
                              pump.
                              > ( Precision SR-2500 ) air pump. Been using it for last 2 - 3
                              years.
                              > Sorry Harry, I can't smell the rubber at allll!!! BUT I will say
                              my
                              > nose is broken. I can't even smell farts, Well, most of the time!
                              >
                              > Marc
                              > With a bad cold, snif:(
                              >
                            • Harry
                              ... I used clear silicone fuel tubing from Supercheap auto supplies (Aus). It wasn t so much a rubbery smell I noticed. It was a taste of burnt or hot
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Come to think of it, one source for a rubbery smell could be the hose
                                > from "filter" to the aeration bucket. If there is ethanol in the
                                > filter some will evaporate and condense in the hose. I have noticed
                                > that even silicone hoses tend to give some off taste when in contact
                                > with 95.6% stuff.
                                >
                                > Harry, what type of hoses were you using with your aquarium air pump
                                > experiments?
                                >
                                > Cheers, Riku


                                I used clear silicone fuel tubing from Supercheap auto supplies (Aus).
                                It wasn't so much a rubbery "smell" I noticed. It was a "taste" of
                                burnt or hot rubber in the product as an aftertaste. When I switched
                                to a piston pump and copper lines, it disappeared. Mind you, a lot of
                                the aquarium pumps sold here in Oz are cheap taiwanese imports so I'm
                                not surprised that the flexing of the rubber diaphrams (just 2 black
                                rubber buckets) would cause off tastes to be transferred to the
                                airstream and product. Anyways, it's something to be aware of if
                                you're setting up an aerator. If it happens to anyone else at least
                                they'll know the cause AND the fix.

                                Slainte!
                                regards Harry
                              • mavnkaf
                                My thoghts mixed in Harry s post, Right or wrong. Please read to the bottom of this post. ... (Aus). I would not trust what Supercheap sells as good petrol
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                  My thoghts mixed in Harry's post, Right or wrong. Please read to
                                  the bottom of this post.

                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > I used clear silicone fuel tubing from Supercheap auto supplies
                                  (Aus).

                                  I would not trust what Supercheap sells "as" good petrol grade fuel
                                  line. I have brought this stuff for years and it ALWAYS degrades and
                                  goes hard and cracks. As a ultralight pilot for the last 25 years.

                                  The best solvent suited tube I have found is sold from KEMPE VALVES &
                                  FITTINGS.

                                  > It wasn't so much a rubbery "smell" I noticed. It was a "taste" of
                                  > burnt or hot rubber in the product as an aftertaste. When I
                                  switched

                                  > to a piston pump and copper lines, it disappeared. Mind you, a lot


                                  Harry, I've had many of these 12 volt car tyre pumps, there not good
                                  at all because of the petrol grease and dust. How did you conect
                                  copper tubes to the pump?


                                  of
                                  > the aquarium pumps sold here in Oz are cheap taiwanese imports so
                                  I'm
                                  > not surprised that the flexing of the rubber diaphrams (just 2
                                  black
                                  > rubber buckets) would cause off tastes to be transferred to the
                                  > airstream and product.


                                  I thought the rubbing was on the out side of the cups?


                                  Anyways, it's something to be aware of if
                                  > you're setting up an aerator. If it happens to anyone else at
                                  least
                                  > they'll know the cause AND the fix.
                                  >
                                  > Slainte!
                                  > regards Harry
                                  >


                                  I checked my fish tank air pump by taken it apart, (tonight)

                                  Holy crap, even with my nose stuffed up with cold and Hayfever I can
                                  smell tyre rubber!! But I can't smell it from the in side of the
                                  pump, out of the out put tube?

                                  ??????
                                  Cheers

                                  Not so sure
                                  Marc
                                • abbababbaccc
                                  OK, now you guys made me to stick that hose from the pump to my nose to see if I could smell anything. Boy did it tickle with the airflow, made me sneeze. My
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                    OK, now you guys made me to stick that hose from the pump to my nose
                                    to see if I could smell anything. Boy did it tickle with the airflow,
                                    made me sneeze. My wife came to see what's the matter and saw me
                                    sneezing with a hose in me nose - guess who got a good laugh ...

                                    BUT, I didn't smell any rubbery tones. I guess the bottom line is
                                    whether the pump is a quality piece or not. I've tried two german
                                    made pumps and neither gave rubbery taste or smell.

                                    Cheers, Riku

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > My thoghts mixed in Harry's post, Right or wrong. Please read to
                                    > the bottom of this post.
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I used clear silicone fuel tubing from Supercheap auto supplies
                                    > (Aus).
                                    >
                                    > I would not trust what Supercheap sells "as" good petrol grade fuel
                                    > line. I have brought this stuff for years and it ALWAYS degrades
                                    and
                                    > goes hard and cracks. As a ultralight pilot for the last 25 years.
                                    >
                                    > The best solvent suited tube I have found is sold from KEMPE VALVES
                                    &
                                    > FITTINGS.
                                    >
                                    > > It wasn't so much a rubbery "smell" I noticed. It was a "taste"
                                    of
                                    > > burnt or hot rubber in the product as an aftertaste. When I
                                    > switched
                                    >
                                    > > to a piston pump and copper lines, it disappeared. Mind you, a
                                    lot
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Harry, I've had many of these 12 volt car tyre pumps, there not
                                    good
                                    > at all because of the petrol grease and dust. How did you conect
                                    > copper tubes to the pump?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > of
                                    > > the aquarium pumps sold here in Oz are cheap taiwanese imports so
                                    > I'm
                                    > > not surprised that the flexing of the rubber diaphrams (just 2
                                    > black
                                    > > rubber buckets) would cause off tastes to be transferred to the
                                    > > airstream and product.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I thought the rubbing was on the out side of the cups?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Anyways, it's something to be aware of if
                                    > > you're setting up an aerator. If it happens to anyone else at
                                    > least
                                    > > they'll know the cause AND the fix.
                                    > >
                                    > > Slainte!
                                    > > regards Harry
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I checked my fish tank air pump by taken it apart, (tonight)
                                    >
                                    > Holy crap, even with my nose stuffed up with cold and Hayfever I
                                    can
                                    > smell tyre rubber!! But I can't smell it from the in side of the
                                    > pump, out of the out put tube?
                                    >
                                    > ??????
                                    > Cheers
                                    >
                                    > Not so sure
                                    > Marc
                                    >
                                  • duds2u
                                    Sorry for the delay in answering. The pump I have is a cheapie Chinese acquarium pump. It puts out 150 l/hr (?) and has a rubber diaphragm type pump. Not
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                      Sorry for the delay in answering. The pump I have is a cheapie Chinese
                                      acquarium pump. It puts out 150 l/hr (?) and has a rubber diaphragm
                                      type pump. Not game to pull it apart to find out the finer details of
                                      it, I might find some milk products there.

                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hmm, mine has been used for 100 hours or so. I do not have the filter
                                      > in line and I have not noticed any problems. What type of diaphragm
                                      > do you have? Mine is made of black rubber, manufacturer is Schego.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers, Riku
                                      >
                                    • Harry
                                      ... filter ... These are the cheap Taiwanese pumps. 2 rubber buckets (diaphrams), one on either side. Actuated by a magnetic pull-in bar like a solenoid. So
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 2, 2008
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                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "duds2u" <taylormc@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Sorry for the delay in answering. The pump I have is a cheapie Chinese
                                        > acquarium pump. It puts out 150 l/hr (?) and has a rubber diaphragm
                                        > type pump. Not game to pull it apart to find out the finer details of
                                        > it, I might find some milk products there.
                                        >
                                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" abbababbaccc@
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hmm, mine has been used for 100 hours or so. I do not have the filter
                                        > > in line and I have not noticed any problems. What type of diaphragm
                                        > > do you have? Mine is made of black rubber, manufacturer is Schego.
                                        > >
                                        > > Cheers, Riku
                                        > >
                                        >

                                         

                                         

                                        These are the cheap Taiwanese pumps.  2 rubber buckets (diaphrams), one on either side.  Actuated by a magnetic pull-in bar like a solenoid.  So the bar moves at 50 or 60 times per SECOND in tune with the power supply 50 or 60 hertz (cycles).  That's a LOT of flexing of the rubber, which causes the hot rubber taste in the product.

                                        Working Principle of Linear Diaphragm Air Pump
                                          
                                        When the alternating current is applied to the electromagnet as in the figure above the actuating rod moves first in the direction of the arrow as shown in Fig.A and then in the direction of the arrow as shown in Fig.B, by the magnetic attraction and repellent forces exerted between the electromagnet and the permanent magnets attached to the rod. The rod vibrates at the same frequency as that of the power supply and changes the volume of the space enclosed between the casing and the diaphragm. Thus, the air intake, compression and exhaust can be performed through the valves.

                                        ThatPetPlace.com

                                        Slainte!
                                        regards Harry


                                      • Harry
                                        These are the piston type pumps you need if you want rubber-less & oil-less airflow... Bush Ranger Air Compressors [Max Air Package] [Small Square] The
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 2, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment


                                          These are the piston type pumps you need if you want rubber-less & oil-less airflow...

                                          Bush Ranger Air Compressors

                                           Max Air Package
                                          Small SquareThe most powerful portable Air Compressor in it's class, with a huge 50 lpm @ 30 psi
                                          Small SquareWill easily pump a 10R.15 off-road tyre from 15 psi to 32 psi in 2 minutes, and then comfortably continue to do so for five of your mate's vehicles as well, before there is a chance of the thermal shut down switch kicking in
                                          Small SquareFully Servicable compressor components.
                                          Small SquareBuilt-on air filter with replaceable element, assures only clean air enters the unit for long life operation
                                          Small SquareUnit can be permanently mounted and hard wired if desired, hard mount kit supplied with compressor.
                                          Small SquareSpecifications:
                                          Maximum Air Flow: 72 litres per minute
                                          Maximum Voltage: 13.8 volt
                                          Maximum Amperage Draw: 30 A
                                          Maximum Working Pressure: 150 PSI
                                          Maximum Restart Pressure: 200 PSI
                                          Maximum Ambient Temp.: 60°C
                                          Minimum Ambient Temp.: -55°C
                                          Maximum duty cycle time: 40 mins @ 40 psi @ 24°C
                                             

                                           
                                          ARB

                                          ARB air compressors ~ for a reliable air supply in the home garage, at the camp site, in the desert or out in the bush.

                                          RDCKA FEATURES:
                                          »
                                          Pressure switch controlled air reservoir tank automatically shuts off the compressor when maximum pressure is reached - RDCKA & RDCP models
                                          » Easy to clean sintered air filter 
                                          » Efficient poppet valve air inlet and exhaust
                                          » Hard anodised cylinder bore for maximum life and reduced friction 
                                          » Teflon impregnated carbon piston rings for trouble free oilless operation 
                                          » Ball bearings for greater durability 
                                          » Balanced counter weight for smooth operation 
                                          » Powerful permanent magnet DC motor ensures greater performance

                                          SPECIFICATIONS:
                                          length:170mm
                                          height:176mm
                                          width:107mm without pressure switch
                                          weight:3.8kg
                                          motor voltage:12 volt (24 volt option)
                                          maximum amp draw:load 20 amp/ no load 9 amp
                                          flow rate:24ltr/min @ 200 kPa (29 psi)
                                          pressure switch rdcka & rdcp models:off 720 + - 35 kPa (105 + - 5 psi)
                                          on 586 + - 35 kPa (85 + - 5 psi)

                                          website: www.arb.com.au

                                           

                                           

                                          Slainte!
                                          regards Harry

                                        • jamesonbeam1
                                          Side Note: I have been using an air matress pump for the past 2 years for aerating my mashes / washes. It works on a vacuum cleaner concept with no
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Oct 3, 2008
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                                            Side Note:

                                            I have been using an air matress pump for the past 2 years for aerating
                                            my mashes / washes. It works on a vacuum cleaner concept with no
                                            diaphragms, using fans for the air flow. Pumps quite a volume of air
                                            out.

                                            Vino es Veritas,

                                            Jim aka Waldo.


                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "duds2u" taylormc@ wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Sorry for the delay in answering. The pump I have is a cheapie
                                            Chinese
                                            > > acquarium pump. It puts out 150 l/hr (?) and has a rubber diaphragm
                                            > > type pump. Not game to pull it apart to find out the finer details
                                            of
                                            > > it, I might find some milk products there.
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" abbababbaccc@
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hmm, mine has been used for 100 hours or so. I do not have the
                                            > filter
                                            > > > in line and I have not noticed any problems. What type of
                                            diaphragm
                                            > > > do you have? Mine is made of black rubber, manufacturer is Schego.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Cheers, Riku
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > These are the cheap Taiwanese pumps. 2 rubber buckets (diaphrams), one
                                            > on either side. Actuated by a magnetic pull-in bar like a solenoid. So
                                            > the bar moves at 50 or 60 times per SECOND in tune with the power
                                            supply
                                            > 50 or 60 hertz (cycles). That's a LOT of flexing of the rubber, which
                                            > causes the hot rubber taste in the product.
                                            >
                                            > Working Principle of Linear Diaphragm Air Pump When the
                                            > alternating current is applied to the electromagnet as in the figure
                                            > above the actuating rod moves first in the direction of the arrow as
                                            > shown in Fig.A and then in the direction of the arrow as shown in
                                            Fig.B,
                                            > by the magnetic attraction and repellent forces exerted between the
                                            > electromagnet and the permanent magnets attached to the rod. The rod
                                            > vibrates at the same frequency as that of the power supply and changes
                                            > the volume of the space enclosed between the casing and the diaphragm.
                                            > Thus, the air intake, compression and exhaust can be performed through
                                            > the valves.
                                            >
                                            > [ThatPetPlace.com]
                                            >
                                            > Slainte!
                                            > regards Harry
                                            >
                                          • Sven Pfitt
                                            Another nice source of good quality air pumps is used Nebulizer pumps. They are showing up in flea markets and yard sales around here. The ones I ve seeen have
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Oct 3, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Another nice source of good quality air pumps is used Nebulizer pumps.
                                              They are showing up in flea markets and yard sales around here. The
                                              ones I've seeen have hepa filters and quite a good air flow. Since they
                                              are medical equiptment, they won't be putting anything nasty in the air
                                              flow.

                                              I'm looking for a used oxygen concentrator next.

                                              ~rev™

                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Side Note:
                                              >
                                              > I have been using an air matress pump for the past 2 years for
                                              aerating
                                              > my mashes / washes. It works on a vacuum cleaner concept with no
                                              > diaphragms, using fans for the air flow. Pumps quite a volume of air
                                              > out.
                                              >
                                              > Vino es Veritas,
                                              >
                                              > Jim aka Waldo.
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