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Re: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control

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  • Dulcet Brewer
    Hi Bill/Bob et al.   One specific element that s been left out of the discussion so far is the fact that any power control circuit can be made to conform to
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 8, 2008
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      Hi Bill/Bob et al.
       
      One specific element that's been left out of the discussion so far is the fact that any power control circuit can be made to conform to any required load characteristic - simply by changing the function of the variable resistor and/or the capacitor that forms the RC element. 
       
      Assuming we are using a purely resistive load (and a heating element should be) then a
      LINEAR pot(entiometer) will cause the power output of the thyristor/triac to follow the rotary position of the slider. ie 1/4 of the slider's rotation angle = 1/4 power etc.  This also assumes the capacitor has been sized correctly. 
       
      However if the load is not purely resistive (ie there is some inductive or capacitive effect) then a logarithmic pot will be needed to mimic the effect of linearity.  This circuit would also require a substatntial amount of design work to match the R/C network to the non-linearity of the load. 
      Hope that muddies the waters further, but the real answer to the original question is that if the load is ONLY a heating element, and if the power output starts at 1 end of the rotation of the slider and gets to full output at the other end of the slider, then it is probably linear.  A good way to roughly evaluate this is to just use a 60 watt light bulb as a load, and slowly wind the pot back and forth.    
       
      DulcetBrewer
      Perth, Western Australia
       
      Measure, once or twice - cut: mostly.


      --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Bill Williams <vipond50@...> wrote:
      From: Bill Williams <vipond50@...>
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 5:17 PM

      Thanks Sherman
      Dah.... Must have been thinking of a different CKT.

      All The Best
      Bill

      --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Sherman <pintoshine@artisan- distiller. org> wrote:
      From: Sherman <pintoshine@artisan- distiller. org>
      Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
      To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 12:00 PM

      This is your answer. http://home. howstuffworks. com/dimmer- switch2.htm
      --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, Bill Williams <vipond50@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > Hi
      > Interesting
      > So U removed the Choke...... How does the Dimmer control the Phase
      shifting???? ? Believe u need a Ferrite cored spool ????? 6KW @
      240E Tri, what is the spec # ?
      > Interesting i will have to give this one a go.
      > BTW Thanks to all for the input relating to the controller.
      > All The Best
      > Bill
      >
      > --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Firefox <foxyfoxy50@ ...> wrote:
      > From: Firefox <foxyfoxy50@ ...>
      > Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
      > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
      > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 3:19 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I use a modified light dimmer and without getting technical it
      > appears to be linear. I removed the low wattage choke and replaced
      the Triac
      > with a component that will handle 6KW at 240V. Mounted the whole lot
      in a
      > really heavy Aluminium case which also serves as a heat sink for the
      Triac.
      >
      > As always please do not attempt this if you are not
      > qualified to work with high voltage electrics.
      >
      > Hope this helps.
      >
      > Bob.
      >



    • Hllrsr
      Thanks for the explanation. I managed to borrow a friend s scope and found out what why the output from the dimmer made no sense The damn dimmer was bad. The
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 8, 2008
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        Thanks for the explanation.
        I managed to borrow a friend's scope and found out what why the output from the dimmer made no sense

        The damn dimmer was bad.

        The new one is working fine, and using the calculator on Tony's site as a rough guideline, the control was easy to mark.
        Very time consuming to compare (I did it at 4 different settings), but good enough for what I'm doing with it.

        Thanks again guys.




        Dulcet Brewer wrote:

        One specific element that's been left out of the discussion so far is the fact that any power control circuit can be made to conform to any required load characteristic - simply by changing the function of the variable resistor and/or the capacitor that forms the RC element. 
         
        Assuming we are using a purely resistive load (and a heating element should be) then a
        LINEAR pot(entiometer) will cause the power output of the thyristor/triac to follow the rotary position of the slider. ie 1/4 of the slider's rotation angle = 1/4 power etc.  This also assumes the capacitor has been sized correctly. 
         
        However if the load is not purely resistive (ie there is some inductive or capacitive effect) then a logarithmic pot will be needed to mimic the effect of linearity.  This circuit would also require a substatntial amount of design work to match the R/C network to the non-linearity of the load. 
        Hope that muddies the waters further, but the real answer to the original question is that if the load is ONLY a heating element, and if the power output starts at 1 end of the rotation of the slider and gets to full output at the other end of the slider, then it is probably linear.  A good way to roughly evaluate this is to just use a 60 watt light bulb as a load, and slowly wind the pot back and forth.    
         
        DulcetBrewer
        Perth, Western Australia
         
        Measure, once or twice - cut: mostly.

      • Bob
        think this thread maybe coming to an end but before it does I m sure the info on the Triac I used maybe useful, see this link for Data sheet: -
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 9, 2008
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          think this thread maybe coming to an end but before it does I'm sure
          the info on the Triac I used maybe useful, see this link for Data
          sheet: - http://tinyurl.com/656t6z I know this component is probably
          overkill but for the price of the component, the use and abuse it will
          encounter, heat etc. I thought why not the best. I do find the
          potentiometer could be upgraded as the case obviously becomes quite
          warm and effects the cheap commercial potentiometer fitted, (plastic
          shaft etc. although it has lasted several years.

          Re- the choke issue, I assumed it was present just for radio
          interference (please correct me if I'm wrong), I just removed and
          bridged it. As most communication these days are digital I couldn't
          see a problem especially as the unit is only used probably once a
          month for 3 hours, at the most.

          Hope this has been useful and any feedback / knowledge will be
          gratefully received.

          I'm sure non of us are to proud to learn from others J

          Here to help (if I can).

          Bob.
        • Bill Williams
          Thanks Bob Funny i was looking t the same Tri.... u say several years of operation... not bad for a cheap old pot. Is the value of the pot a 500 K ? I promise
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 9, 2008
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            Thanks Bob
            Funny i was looking t the same Tri.... u say several years of operation... not bad for a cheap old pot. Is the value of the pot a 500 K ?
            I promise this is my last question.
            All my Best
            Bill


            --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Bob <foxyfoxy50@...> wrote:
            From: Bob <foxyfoxy50@...>
            Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 7:56 AM

            think this thread maybe coming to an end but before it does I'm sure
            the info on the Triac I used maybe useful, see this link for Data
            sheet: - http://tinyurl. com/656t6z I know this component is probably
            overkill but for the price of the component, the use and abuse it will
            encounter, heat etc. I thought why not the best. I do find the
            potentiometer could be upgraded as the case obviously becomes quite
            warm and effects the cheap commercial potentiometer fitted, (plastic
            shaft etc. although it has lasted several years.

            Re- the choke issue, I assumed it was present just for radio
            interference (please correct me if I'm wrong), I just removed and
            bridged it. As most communication these days are digital I couldn't
            see a problem especially as the unit is only used probably once a
            month for 3 hours, at the most.

            Hope this has been useful and any feedback / knowledge will be
            gratefully received.

            I'm sure non of us are to proud to learn from others J

            Here to help (if I can).

            Bob.


          • Trid
            ... For what it s worth, I got the fixin s for 3 complete 30 amp triac controllers from digikey.com for under $30. Even if it doesn t work for that long,
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 9, 2008
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              --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Bill Williams <vipond50@...> wrote:
              > Thanks Bob
              > Funny i was looking t the same Tri.... u say several years of
              > operation... not bad for a cheap old pot. Is the value of the pot a 500 K >
              > I promise this is my last question.
              > All my Best
              > Bill

              For what it's worth, I got the fixin's for 3 complete 30 amp triac controllers from digikey.com for under $30. Even if it doesn't work for that long, replacing it (subject, of course, to one's inclination to tinker) isn't that expensive. Especially if you consider that it may only be one component that fails and needs replacing. At which point, buy a component rated at a higher power and keep on chuggin'.

              I will at least clarify that I haven't taken the time to assemble my rig, but at least that's my theory. Since I now have an outbuilding, I can tinker a little harder and messier because SWMBO will no longer have a conniption when I fire up the mapp torch in the kitchen :) As such, I'll have to test my theory here soon.

              Cheers,
              Trid
            • Sherman
              SWMBO = Sherman LMAO :) ... a 500 K ... controllers from digikey.com for under $30. Even if it doesn t work for that long, replacing it (subject, of course,
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 9, 2008
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                SWMBO = Sherman LMAO :)

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Bill Williams <vipond50@...> wrote:
                > > Thanks Bob
                > > Funny i was looking t the same Tri.... u say several years of
                > > operation... not bad for a cheap old pot. Is the value of the pot
                a 500 K >
                > > I promise this is my last question.
                > > All my Best
                > > Bill
                >
                > For what it's worth, I got the fixin's for 3 complete 30 amp triac
                controllers from digikey.com for under $30. Even if it doesn't work
                for that long, replacing it (subject, of course, to one's inclination
                to tinker) isn't that expensive. Especially if you consider that it
                may only be one component that fails and needs replacing. At which
                point, buy a component rated at a higher power and keep on chuggin'.
                >
                > I will at least clarify that I haven't taken the time to assemble my
                rig, but at least that's my theory. Since I now have an outbuilding,
                I can tinker a little harder and messier because SWMBO will no longer
                have a conniption when I fire up the mapp torch in the kitchen :) As
                such, I'll have to test my theory here soon.
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Trid
                >
              • Dulcet Brewer
                Hi Bob.   Yes, the choke would have been purely for RFI suppression - PLEASE don t let Yodar know you bridged it.  He will have a hernia. (He s hambiased!)
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 11, 2008
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                  Hi Bob.
                   
                  Yes, the choke would have been purely for RFI suppression - PLEASE don't let Yodar know you bridged it.  He will have a hernia. (He's hambiased!)
                   
                  The pot should NOT need to be a power device.  If the circuit is designed properly, a standard 100-500K 1 watt device will work perfectly
                   
                  As an aside, I have found that back-to-back thyristors are much more reliable than a single triac.  It means the circuit is fractionally more complicated ie 2 diacs instead of 1 for reliable triggering, but high wattage tryristors are substantially cheaper than equiv triacs, so there is an offset.
                   
                  Love the ref to 1 of my favourite TV chars - Rumpo himself!  Fortunately my own SWMBO is a scotch drinker.
                   
                  DulcetBrewer
                  Perth, Western Australia
                   
                  Measure, once or twice - cut: mostly.


                  --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Bob <foxyfoxy50@...> wrote:
                  From: Bob <foxyfoxy50@...>
                  Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 7:56 AM

                  think this thread maybe coming to an end but before it does I'm sure
                  the info on the Triac I used maybe useful, see this link for Data
                  sheet: - http://tinyurl. com/656t6z I know this component is probably
                  overkill but for the price of the component, the use and abuse it will
                  encounter, heat etc. I thought why not the best. I do find the
                  potentiometer could be upgraded as the case obviously becomes quite
                  warm and effects the cheap commercial potentiometer fitted, (plastic
                  shaft etc. although it has lasted several years.

                  Re- the choke issue, I assumed it was present just for radio
                  interference (please correct me if I'm wrong), I just removed and
                  bridged it. As most communication these days are digital I couldn't
                  see a problem especially as the unit is only used probably once a
                  month for 3 hours, at the most.

                  Hope this has been useful and any feedback / knowledge will be
                  gratefully received.

                  I'm sure non of us are to proud to learn from others J

                  Here to help (if I can).

                  Bob.


                • Sherman
                  Just a few notes from experience. The most reliable setup is cascade alternistors. I have built dozens of these capable of 9KW and yet to have a single
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 11, 2008
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                    Just a few notes from experience.
                    The most reliable setup is cascade alternistors. I have built dozens
                    of these capable of 9KW and yet to have a single failure.
                    This reliability comes from the predetermined limit resister that
                    drives the first alternistor in the cascade. Is also allows a simple 3
                    component trigger because of the sensitivity of the first alternistor.
                    The ability to drive a inductive loads without a snubber circuit is an
                    inherent attribute of the alternistor and is a bonus but not needed
                    with resistive heating elements. Larger coiled heating element can
                    have enough inductance to cause a thyristor or triac to not switch off
                    properly.

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Bob.
                    >
                    > Yes, the choke would have been purely for RFI suppression - PLEASE
                    don't let Yodar know you bridged it. He will have a hernia. (He's
                    hambiased!)
                    >
                    > The pot should NOT need to be a power device. If the circuit is
                    designed properly, a standard 100-500K 1 watt device will work perfectly
                    >
                    > As an aside, I have found that back-to-back thyristors are much more
                    reliable than a single triac. It means the circuit is fractionally
                    more complicated ie 2 diacs instead of 1 for reliable triggering, but
                    high wattage tryristors are substantially cheaper than equiv triacs,
                    so there is an offset.
                    >
                    > Love the ref to 1 of my favourite TV chars - Rumpo himself!
                    Fortunately my own SWMBO is a scotch drinker.
                    >
                    >
                    > DulcetBrewer
                    > Perth, Western Australia
                    >
                    > Measure, once or twice - cut: mostly.
                    >
                    > --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Bob <foxyfoxy50@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Bob <foxyfoxy50@...>
                    > Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
                    > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 7:56 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > think this thread maybe coming to an end but before it does I'm sure
                    > the info on the Triac I used maybe useful, see this link for Data
                    > sheet: - http://tinyurl. com/656t6z I know this component is probably
                    > overkill but for the price of the component, the use and abuse it will
                    > encounter, heat etc. I thought why not the best. I do find the
                    > potentiometer could be upgraded as the case obviously becomes quite
                    > warm and effects the cheap commercial potentiometer fitted, (plastic
                    > shaft etc. although it has lasted several years.
                    >
                    > Re- the choke issue, I assumed it was present just for radio
                    > interference (please correct me if I'm wrong), I just removed and
                    > bridged it. As most communication these days are digital I couldn't
                    > see a problem especially as the unit is only used probably once a
                    > month for 3 hours, at the most.
                    >
                    > Hope this has been useful and any feedback / knowledge will be
                    > gratefully received.
                    >
                    > I'm sure non of us are to proud to learn from others J
                    >
                    > Here to help (if I can).
                    >
                    > Bob.
                    >
                  • Robert Hubble
                    Hey Pint, Do you have a schematic? (I ll admit, I had to look up alternistor .) Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller ________________________________ To:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 11, 2008
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                      Hey Pint,

                      Do you have a schematic? (I'll admit, I had to look up "alternistor".)

                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                      ________________________________
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      From: pintoshine@...
                      Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:12:39 +0000
                      Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control


                      Just a few notes from experience.

                      The most reliable setup is cascade alternistors. I have built dozens

                      of these capable of 9KW and yet to have a single failure.

                      This reliability comes from the predetermined limit resister that

                      drives the first alternistor in the cascade. Is also allows a simple 3

                      component trigger because of the sensitivity of the first alternistor.

                      The ability to drive a inductive loads without a snubber circuit is an

                      inherent attribute of the alternistor and is a bonus but not needed

                      with resistive heating elements. Larger coiled heating element can

                      have enough inductance to cause a thyristor or triac to not switch off

                      properly.



                      ----snip----
                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Got Game? Win Prizes in the Windows Live Hotmail Mobile Summer Games Trivia Contest
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                    • Sherman
                      this is the one I use for my kits.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 12, 2008
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                        this is the one I use for my kits.
                        http://www.artisan-distiller.org/photoalbum/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=pint_o_shine%2Flhcontroller%2Flightdimmer_240VAC.JPG&var2=0


                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hey Pint,
                        >
                        > Do you have a schematic? (I'll admit, I had to look up "alternistor".)
                        >
                        > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: pintoshine@...
                        > Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:12:39 +0000
                        > Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
                        >
                        >
                        > Just a few notes from experience.
                        >
                        > The most reliable setup is cascade alternistors. I have built dozens
                        >
                        > of these capable of 9KW and yet to have a single failure.
                        >
                        > This reliability comes from the predetermined limit resister that
                        >
                        > drives the first alternistor in the cascade. Is also allows a simple 3
                        >
                        > component trigger because of the sensitivity of the first alternistor.
                        >
                        > The ability to drive a inductive loads without a snubber circuit is an
                        >
                        > inherent attribute of the alternistor and is a bonus but not needed
                        >
                        > with resistive heating elements. Larger coiled heating element can
                        >
                        > have enough inductance to cause a thyristor or triac to not switch off
                        >
                        > properly.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----snip----
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > Got Game? Win Prizes in the Windows Live Hotmail Mobile Summer Games
                        Trivia Contest
                        > http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergames?ocid=TXT_TAGHM
                        >
                      • Robert Hubble
                        Thanks Pint, Cute, and it looks like you could drive an even larger output alternistor (if they made it in that device family) with that circuit. Is that
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 12, 2008
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                          Thanks Pint,

                          Cute, and it looks like you could drive an even larger
                          output alternistor (if they made it in that device family)
                          with that circuit. Is that left-hand device in the same
                          family as the other 2?

                          And did you say you are producing these in kits?

                          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          From: pintoshine@...
                          Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:04:30 +0000
                          Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control

                          this is the one I use for my kits.
                          http://www.artisan- distiller. org/photoalbum/ main.php? cmd=imageview& var1=pint_ o_shine%2Flhcont roller%2Flightdi mmer_240VAC. JPG&var2= 0

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hey Pint,
                          >
                          > Do you have a schematic? (I'll admit, I had to look up "alternistor" .)
                          >
                          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                          > From: pintoshine@. ..
                          > Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:12:39 +0000
                          > Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
                          >
                          >
                          > Just a few notes from experience.
                          >
                          > The most reliable setup is cascade alternistors. I have built dozens
                          >
                          > of these capable of 9KW and yet to have a single failure.
                          >
                          > This reliability comes from the predetermined limit resister that
                          >
                          > drives the first alternistor in the cascade. Is also allows a simple 3
                          >
                          > component trigger because of the sensitivity of the first alternistor.
                          >
                          > The ability to drive a inductive loads without a snubber circuit is an
                          >
                          > inherent attribute of the alternistor and is a bonus but not needed
                          >
                          > with resistive heating elements. Larger coiled heating element can
                          >
                          > have enough inductance to cause a thyristor or triac to not switch off
                          >
                          > properly.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----snip----
                          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                          > Got Game? Win Prizes in the Windows Live Hotmail Mobile Summer Games
                          Trivia Contest
                          > http://www.gowindow slive.com/ summergames? ocid=TXT_ TAGHM
                          >




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                        • Bill Williams
                          Hello I have reviewed the different options and some of the individuals have had great success with the dimmer  CKT. Some have cascaded tri s and dia s. I
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 12, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello
                            I have reviewed the different options and some of the individuals have had great success with the dimmer  CKT. Some have cascaded tri's and dia's. I believed I will go with a Zero cross electronic relay and drive it with a simple Dc powered 555 adjustable OSC. Of coarse this is my take, but as i stated I believed this is the simplest and most versatile option, although maybe not the best option.
                            Thank for all the great work Guy's and input relating to this subject.
                            Best Regards
                            Bill

                            --- On Tue, 8/12/08, Sherman <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                            From: Sherman <pintoshine@...>
                            Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
                            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 7:04 AM

                            this is the one I use for my kits.
                            http://www.artisan- distiller. org/photoalbum/ main.php? cmd=imageview& var1=pint_ o_shine%2Flhcont roller%2Flightdi mmer_240VAC. JPG&var2= 0

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hey Pint,
                            >
                            > Do you have a schematic? (I'll admit, I had to look up "alternistor" .)
                            >
                            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                            >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                            > From: pintoshine@. ..
                            > Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:12:39 +0000
                            > Subject: [Distillers] Re:Heat Control
                            >
                            >
                            > Just a few notes from experience.
                            >
                            > The most reliable setup is cascade alternistors. I have built dozens
                            >
                            > of these capable of 9KW and yet to have a single failure.
                            >
                            > This reliability comes from the predetermined limit resister that
                            >
                            > drives the first alternistor in the cascade. Is also allows a simple 3
                            >
                            > component trigger because of the sensitivity of the first alternistor.
                            >
                            > The ability to drive a inductive loads without a snubber circuit is an
                            >
                            > inherent attribute of the alternistor and is a bonus but not needed
                            >
                            > with resistive heating elements. Larger coiled heating element can
                            >
                            > have enough inductance to cause a thyristor or triac to not switch off
                            >
                            > properly.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----snip----
                            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                            > Got Game? Win Prizes in the Windows Live Hotmail Mobile Summer Games
                            Trivia Contest
                            > http://www.gowindow slive.com/ summergames? ocid=TXT_ TAGHM
                            >


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