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Finished PH of Vodka

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  • mstehelin
    What would the PH of Vodka be?
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 6, 2008
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      What would the PH of Vodka be?
    • Harry
      ... Simple question, you think? Hardly. Read on... Well for starters the p in pH is always written as lower case, not upper case. The p stands for
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 6, 2008
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...> wrote:

        >
        > What would the PH of Vodka be?
        >

         

        Simple question, you think?  Hardly.  Read on...

        Well for starters the "p" in pH is always written as lower case, not upper case.  The "p" stands for potential.  The "H" stands for Hydrogen.

        Noun
        S: (n) pH, pH scale ((from potential of Hydrogen) the logarithm of the reciprocal of hydrogen-ion concentration in gram atoms per liter; provides a measure on a scale from 0 to 14 of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution (where 7 is neutral and greater than 7 is more basic and less than 7 is more acidic);)


        Note the word "solution" in the above definition.  In order for there to be a pH reading, the substance MUST be in solution with WATER.  Therefore pure anhydrous Ethanol doesn't have a pH as such.

        However, you asked about Vodka & pH.
        Since pure Vodka is essentially Ethanol and Distilled de-ionized water and nothing else, it is debatable if it has a pH reading either (technically speaking).  But if it did, then the pH would be very close to that of water, usually taken as neutral pH 7 @ 25°C.

        Be aware that pH of pure WATER can change with temperature.

        0°C - 7.47
        25°C - 7.00
        50°C - 6.63
        75°C - 6.35
        100°C - 6.14


        Now that you are suitably confused, grab a wee dram and have a look here at what this type of question can stir up amongst a group of academics...
        http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=3808.msg17769

         

        Slainte!
        regards Harry

      • MB
        Harry, In vodka, what is the advantage of using de-ionized water as opposed to using regular carbon filtered water? Thanks ...
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 9, 2008
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          Harry,
          In vodka, what is the advantage of using de-ionized water as opposed
          to using regular carbon filtered water?
          Thanks

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com> ,
          > "mstehelin" <mstehelin@> wrote:
          > >
          > > What would the PH of Vodka be?
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > Simple question, you think? Hardly. Read on...
          >
          > Well for starters the "p" in pH is always written as lower case, not
          > upper case. The "p" stands for potential. The "H" stands for
          Hydrogen.
          >
          > Noun
          > S: (n) pH, pH scale ((from potential of Hydrogen) the logarithm of
          the
          > reciprocal of hydrogen-ion concentration in gram atoms per liter;
          > provides a measure on a scale from 0 to 14 of the acidity or
          alkalinity
          > of a solution (where 7 is neutral and greater than 7 is more basic
          and
          > less than 7 is more acidic);)
          >
          >
          > Note the word "solution" in the above definition. In order for
          there to
          > be a pH reading, the substance MUST be in solution with WATER.
          > Therefore pure anhydrous Ethanol doesn't have a pH as such.
          >
          > However, you asked about Vodka & pH.
          > Since pure Vodka is essentially Ethanol and Distilled de-ionized
          water
          > and nothing else, it is debatable if it has a pH reading either
          > (technically speaking). But if it did, then the pH would be very
          close
          > to that of water, usually taken as neutral pH 7 @ 25°C.
          >
          > Be aware that pH of pure WATER can change with temperature.
          >
          > 0°C - 7.47
          > 25°C - 7.00
          > 50°C - 6.63
          > 75°C - 6.35
          > 100°C - 6.14
          >
          >
          > Now that you are suitably confused, grab a wee dram and have a look
          here
          > at what this type of question can stir up amongst a group of
          > academics...
          > http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=3808.msg17769
          > <http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=3808.msg17769>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Slainte!
          > regards Harry
          >
        • Harry
          ... opposed ... All commercial spirits are diluted with de-ionized water. The Scots say they do it because they don t want anything additional in the water
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 9, 2008
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            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MB" <cascadeherbs@...> wrote:
            >
            > Harry,
            > In vodka, what is the advantage of using de-ionized water as
            opposed
            > to using regular carbon filtered water?
            > Thanks
            >



            All commercial spirits are diluted with de-ionized water. The Scots
            say they do it because they don't want anything additional in the
            water which may alter the whisky. Sounds reasonable, because there
            are many things present in water that carbon filtration alone cannot
            remove. Even distilled water contains dissolved gases.

            This site gives a better explanation...
            http://www.spiritsinstitute.com/2008/07/deep-heart-of-ice.html

            ...and this site shows various products and de-ionized water use in
            commercial spirits...
            http://www.jjemrktg.com/Spirits.html


            Slainte!
            regards Harry
          • Harry
            ... Further info: De-ionized Water For Diluting Beverage Spirits De-ionized water can be made using a good reverse osmosis (RO) unit. De-ionization of water is
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 9, 2008
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              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MB" cascadeherbs@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Harry,
              > > In vodka, what is the advantage of using de-ionized water as
              > opposed
              > > to using regular carbon filtered water?
              > > Thanks
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > All commercial spirits are diluted with de-ionized water. The Scots
              > say they do it because they don't want anything additional in the
              > water which may alter the whisky. Sounds reasonable, because there
              > are many things present in water that carbon filtration alone cannot
              > remove. Even distilled water contains dissolved gases.
              >
              > This site gives a better explanation...
              > http://www.spiritsinstitute.com/2008/07/deep-heart-of-ice.html
              >
              > ...and this site shows various products and de-ionized water use in
              > commercial spirits...
              > http://www.jjemrktg.com/Spirits.html
              >
              >
              > Slainte!
              > regards Harry
              >

               

              Further info:

              De-ionized Water For Diluting Beverage Spirits

                      De-ionized water can be made using a good reverse osmosis (RO) unit. 

              De-ionization of water is different from distillation of water!!

              • De-ionization removes charged ionic species, not neutral molecules.
              • Distillation removes molecules of differing vapor pressure, such as
                alcohols and other solvents, but does not de-ionize.

               

               

              Size Ranges of Suspended Particles

                Macro Particle Range...   >= 25 mm, visible to the naked eye
                Micro Particle Range...   1 - 15
              mm, visible with an optical microscope
                Macro Molecular Range...   0.1 - 1
              mm, visible with a high power optical microscope
                Molecular Range...   1 - 100 nm, visible with a scanning electron microscope
                Ionic Range...  0.1 - 1 nm, not visible with current technology

               

              Size Range of Common Particles Found in Un-treated Water

              Atomic Radii...  1-6 Angstroms

              Paint Pigment...  0.1-5 mm

              Metal Ions...  2-7 Angstroms

              Bacteria...  0.25-30 mm

              Aqueous Salts...  2-20 Angstroms

              Lung Damaging Dust...  0.5-35 mm

              Sugars...  7-25 Angstroms

              Coal Dust...  1.0-100 mm

              Pyrogens...  20-250 Angstroms

              Milled Flour...  1.0-100 mm

              Collodial Silica...  6-250 nm

              Yeast Cells...  2.0-50 mm

              Albumin Protein...  8-100 nm

              Red Blood Cells...  5.0-9.0 mm

              Viruses...  9-100 nm

              Pollens...  10-100 mm

              Carbon Black...  12-100 nm

              Human Hair (Diameter)...  25-200 mm

              Tobacco Smoke...  20-1000 nm

              Mist...  70-200 mm

               

              Beach Sand...  100-10,000 mm

               


               
               
               
               
                
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               

               

              Types of Water Filtration

              – Particle Filtration

                   • 1-75 mm cartridge filters: cellulose, fiberglass, or polypropylene fibers

              – Microfiltration

                   • 0.1-1.0 mm cartridge filters: ceramic or polymer membranes

              – Ultrafiltration

                   • 20-2000 Angstroms: chemically based

              – Reverse Osmosis (Hyperfiltration)

                   • 1-200 Angstroms: uses special membrane and high pressure to
                      overcome osmotic pressure

               

              How it works

               

              img1.jpg

              The Reverse Osmosis (RO) Process

              – By applying a pressure greater than the osmotic pressure, water
              can be driven backwards through the membrane for purification.
              This is the basis of the reverse osmosis process.

               

              Slainte!
              regards Harry

            • ragnagna75012 ragnagna75012
              ... That s new to me, I was pretty sure ions and charged molecules couldnt vaporize..... Because they needed liquid water to neutralize their charges.
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 10, 2008
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                >* Distillation removes molecules of differing vapor pressure, such as
                >alcohols and other solvents, but does not de-ionize.

                That 's new to me, I was pretty sure ions and charged molecules couldnt vaporize..... Because they needed liquid water to neutralize their charges.

              • Harry
                ... couldnt vaporize..... Because they needed liquid water to neutralize their charges. ... The University of Washington s College of Engineering says exactly
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 10, 2008
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                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, ragnagna75012 ragnagna75012
                  <ragnagna75012@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > >* Distillation removes molecules of differing vapor pressure, such as
                  >
                  > >alcohols and other solvents, but does not de-ionize.
                  >
                  > That 's new to me, I was pretty sure ions and charged molecules
                  couldnt vaporize..... Because they needed liquid water to neutralize
                  their charges.
                  >


                  The University of Washington's College of Engineering says exactly
                  that. I'm not gonna argue with them...
                  http://www.ee.washington.edu/research/microtech/cam/PROCESSES/PDF%
                  20FILES/DIWater.pdf Page 15.

                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry
                • mwmccaw
                  De-ionized water is a sort of poor man s distilled water as my old (inorganic) chemistry prof called it. It has the MINERAL elements (ions) removed, but all
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 10, 2008
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                    De-ionized water is a sort of "poor man's distilled water" as my old
                    (inorganic) chemistry prof called it.
                    It has the MINERAL elements (ions) removed, but all the organics,
                    gasses, etc, remain.

                    RO water is purer than basic de-ionized water, as many of the
                    organics are also excluded.

                    Why would a distillery use d.i. water instead of distilled? The key
                    thing they are trying to control is the chemical reactions that might
                    take place with the mineral content of the water and the organic
                    content of the spirits and the wood of the ageing cask. (Especially
                    think of very hard, limestone water...) This can cause all sorts of
                    precipitates and flocculation reactions that throw a cloudy spirit.

                    The tiny amount of flavor that might be contributed by the organics
                    in the water are both tiny in comparison to the flavors contributed
                    by the spirit itself and the wood AND identical to those in the water
                    used to make the spirit, so they really don't count.

                    Distilled water would work fine for the purpose, it just takes much
                    more time and energy to make than d.i. water.

                    Cheers,
                    Mike
                  • Hllrsr
                    BTW Mike, Isn t limestone water soft? My understanding is that limestone is alkaline and semi-dissolvable in water, which is why they use it locally in a
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 10, 2008
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                      BTW Mike,
                      Isn't limestone water soft?
                      My understanding is that limestone is alkaline and semi-dissolvable in
                      water, which is why they use it locally in a crushed form for reclaiming
                      lakes that have died off due to excessive acidity, while water that
                      comes from a granite based water shed is hard.

                      If I've got this wrong, feel free to correct.

                      ATB


                      mwmccaw wrote:
                      > --snip--
                      >
                      > Why would a distillery use d.i. water instead of distilled? The key
                      > thing they are trying to control is the chemical reactions that might
                      > take place with the mineral content of the water and the organic
                      > content of the spirits and the wood of the ageing cask. (Especially
                      > think of very hard, limestone water...) This can cause all sorts of
                      > precipitates and flocculation reactions that throw a cloudy spirit.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • jamesonbeam1
                      Hi ATB, Being from an area near the famous limestone waters of Kentucky and Tennessee which are used for our Bourbons and Tennessee Whis(e)ys, I would say that
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 10, 2008
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                        Hi ATB,

                        Being from an area near the famous limestone waters of Kentucky and Tennessee which are used for our Bourbons and Tennessee Whis(e)ys, I would say that their waters are not only hard but more alkaline as well (which is one of the reasons Dr. Crow - from Old Crow Bourbon fame -  invented the Sour Mashing Method.  There are also 2 types of hard waters - Temporary versus Permanent, depending on what may be boiled out or not.  I perfer to use distilled water to dilute my Hootch around here because of this.

                        One of the Key ingredients in our water is that there is calcium (calcite) from the limestone deposits - this is also considered as chalk.  The other famous deposits are from the White Cliffs of Dover and other areas around England.

                        Vino es Veritas,

                        Jim  

                        SEE BELOW. 

                        Sidenote: all quotes and sources are from:

                         Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  (J.B.)

                         
                        The Needles, situated on the Isle of Wight, are part of the extensive Southern England Chalk Formation.
                        The Needles, situated on the Isle of Wight, are part of the extensive Southern England Chalk Formation.

                        Chalk (pronounced /ˈtʃÉ"¢°k/) is a soft, white, porous sedimentary rock, a form of limestone composed of the mineral calcite. It forms under relatively deep marine conditions from the gradual accumulation of minute calcite plates (coccoliths) shed from micro-organisms called coccolithophores. It is common to find flint and chert nodules embedded in chalk.

                        Chalk is relatively resistant to erosion and slumping compared to the clays with which it is usually associated, thus forming tall steep cliffs where chalk ridges meet the sea. Chalk hills, known as chalk downland, usually form where bands of chalk reach the surface at an angle, so forming a scarp slope. Because chalk is porous it can hold a large volume of ground water, providing a natural reservoir that releases water slowly through dry seasons.

                        Chalk has been quarried since prehistory, providing building material and marl for fields. In southeast England, deneholes are a notable example of ancient chalk pits.

                        There are 2 types of hard waters - Temporary and permanent.

                        Hard water is a type of water that has high mineral content (in contrast with soft water). Hard water primarily consists of calcium (Ca2+), and magnesium (Mg2+) metal cations, and sometimes other dissolved compounds such as bicarbonates and sulfates. Calcium usually enters the water as either calcium carbonate (CaCO3), in the form of limestone and chalk, or calcium sulfate (CaSO4), in the form of other mineral deposits. The predominant source of magnesium is dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2). Hard water is generally not harmful.

                        Differences between Temporary and Permanant:

                        Temporary hardness

                        Temporary hardness is caused by a combination of calcium ions and bicarbonate ions in the water. It can be removed by boiling the water or by the addition of lime (calcium hydroxide). Boiling promotes the formation of carbonate from the bicarbonate and precipitates calcium carbonate out of solution, leaving water that is softer upon cooling.

                        For more information on the solubility of calcium carbonate in water and how it is affected by atmospheric carbon dioxide, see calcium carbonate.

                        Permanent hardness

                        Permanent hardness is hardness (mineral content) that cannot be removed by boiling. It is usually caused by the presence of calcium and magnesium sulfates and/or chlorides in the water, which become more soluble as the temperature rises. Despite the name, permanent hardness can be removed using a water softener or ion exchange column, where the calcium and magnesium ions are exchanged with the sodium ions in the column.

                        Soft water on the other hand does not contain and types of calcium in it: 

                        Soft water the term used to describe types of water that contain few or no calcium or magnesium metal cations. The term is usually related to hard water, which does contain significant amounts of these ions.

                        Soft water usually comes from peat or igneous rock sources, such as granite but may also derive from sandstone sources, since such sedimentary rocks are usually low in calcium and magnesium.

                         

                         

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Hllrsr <hllrsr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > BTW Mike,
                        > Isn't limestone water soft?
                        > My understanding is that limestone is alkaline and semi-dissolvable in
                        > water, which is why they use it locally in a crushed form for reclaiming
                        > lakes that have died off due to excessive acidity, while water that
                        > comes from a granite based water shed is hard.
                        >
                        > If I've got this wrong, feel free to correct.
                        >
                        > ATB
                        >
                        >
                        > mwmccaw wrote:
                        > > --snip--
                        > >
                        > > Why would a distillery use d.i. water instead of distilled? The key
                        > > thing they are trying to control is the chemical reactions that might
                        > > take place with the mineral content of the water and the organic
                        > > content of the spirits and the wood of the ageing cask. (Especially
                        > > think of very hard, limestone water...) This can cause all sorts of
                        > > precipitates and flocculation reactions that throw a cloudy spirit.

                      • Hllrsr
                        Ah, thanks for the correction, I knew I should have paid more attention in school those many years ago.. :-[ Jamesonbeam1 wrote: Hi ATB, Being from an area
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 10, 2008
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                          Ah, thanks for the correction, I knew I should have paid more attention in school those many years ago.. :-[


                          Jamesonbeam1 wrote:

                          Hi ATB,

                          Being from an area near the famous limestone waters of Kentucky and Tennessee which are used for our Bourbons and Tennessee Whis(e)ys, I would say that their waters are not only hard but more alkaline as well (which is one of the reasons Dr. Crow - from Old Crow Bourbon fame -  invented the Sour Mashing Method.  There are also 2 types of hard waters - Temporary versus Permanent, depending on what may be boiled out or not.  I perfer to use distilled water to dilute my Hootch around here because of this.

                          One of the Key ingredients in our water is that there is calcium (calcite) from the limestone deposits - this is also considered as chalk.  The other famous deposits are from the White Cliffs of Dover and other areas around England.

                          Vino es Veritas,

                          Jim 



                        • Harry
                          Water that is hard contains calcium and magnesium compounds. Rain water is naturally soft - it does not contain any minerals, but as it seeps through the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 10, 2008
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                            Water that is hard contains calcium and magnesium compounds. Rain water
                            is naturally soft - it does not contain any minerals, but as it seeps
                            through the ground it can pick up minerals, such as calcium and
                            magnesium compounds, from the soil and rocks it passes through. If rain
                            water passes through soft rocks like chalk or limestone, it picks up
                            these minerals. If it passes through hard rocks, such as granite or
                            through peaty soils, it does not pick up these minerals and so remains
                            soft.



                            You may also want to view this brewing article...

                            Water Hardness Is Not That Hard To Understand
                            (Water Chemistry Without Pain)
                            by Jeff Renner
                            http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/Renner/WaterHardness.shtml

                            Slainte!
                            regards Harry
                          • Arsene Lupin
                            ... The guy didnt consider water as an output of distillation. These are just slides they come with a commentary. If you boil salted water, do you get salt in
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 11, 2008
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                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, ragnagna75012 ragnagna75012
                              > <ragnagna75012@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > >* Distillation removes molecules of differing vapor pressure, such as
                              > >
                              > > >alcohols and other solvents, but does not de-ionize.
                              > >
                              > > That 's new to me, I was pretty sure ions and charged molecules
                              > couldnt vaporize..... Because they needed liquid water to neutralize
                              > their charges.
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > The University of Washington's College of Engineering says exactly
                              > that. I'm not gonna argue with them...
                              > http://www.ee.washington.edu/research/microtech/cam/PROCESSES/PDF%
                              > 20FILES/DIWater.pdf Page 15.
                              >
                              > Slainte!
                              > regards Harry
                              >
                              The guy didnt consider water as an output of distillation. These are
                              just slides they come with a commentary. If you boil salted water, do
                              you get salt in the condensed vapor ?
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