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Re: AFC (Automatic Feed Control) for continuous strippers

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  • abbababbaccc
    Billy, This is IMO relevant to our hobby. The system I described can not be used for industrial scale stills as the boiling in bigger tube will not cause
    Message 1 of 15 , May 30, 2008
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      Billy,

      This is IMO relevant to our hobby. The system I described can not be
      used for industrial scale stills as the boiling in bigger tube will
      not cause enough spilling to make it work. Rather it would be quite
      nice for some of our Australian friends who are limited to 5 liter
      boilers by law. With this type of a stripper they could process 25-50
      liters batches in few hours without too much trouble while still
      remaining within the limits of the law as I have understood it. The
      issue here is that the feed tube should be about 8-10mm in diameter,
      you can't feed industrial scale stills with that.

      Of course this is just a stripper. One could easily add a
      rectification column that uses ARC to get 95.6% stuff without tails
      and heads separation column to get pure ethanol out.

      Cheers, Riku



      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "billy.turf" <billy.turf@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi Riku,
      >
      > Is this something pertaining to the hobby of home distillation of
      > alcohol? This is about a hobby. Not so much how to produce
      30gallons of
      > fuel grade ethanol per hour.
      >
      > A continuous isn't something that you tinker around with on the
      weekend > back yard, or my neighbors back yard either!
      >
      > Just my opinion, don't want to step on any toes, but if you are
      > interested in making fuel please take it to the fuel makers group.
      If
      > you are looking to make huge amounts of alcohol it's probibly not a
      > hobby anymore either.
      >
      > is it? Sounds more like something industrial to fill the tank on
      your
      > chevy, and everyone elses on the block too. Not something I want in
      my

      > Billy
      >
    • Harry
      ... 30gallons of ... weekend ... your ... my ... If ... Billy, Riku is one of the few people in these groups who are prepared to spend the time & cash to
      Message 2 of 15 , May 30, 2008
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "billy.turf" <billy.turf@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Riku,
        >
        > Is this something pertaining to the hobby of home distillation of
        > alcohol? This is about a hobby. Not so much how to produce
        30gallons of
        > fuel grade ethanol per hour.
        >
        > A continuous isn't something that you tinker around with on the
        weekend
        > is it? Sounds more like something industrial to fill the tank on
        your
        > chevy, and everyone elses on the block too. Not something I want in
        my
        > back yard, or my neighbors back yard either!
        >
        > Just my opinion, don't want to step on any toes, but if you are
        > interested in making fuel please take it to the fuel makers group.
        If
        > you are looking to make huge amounts of alcohol it's probibly not a
        > hobby anymore either.
        >
        > Billy
        >


        Billy,

        Riku is one of the few people in these groups who are prepared to
        spend the time & cash to actually build and test the design concepts
        he dreams up. We owe him a great deal as some of his work has led to
        significant advancement in the technical side of the hobby (ARC =
        Automatic Reflux Control for one). You are the recipient and
        beneficiary of this R&D work, at no cost to you.

        AND he is one of the moderators (with certain group-related powers) I
        appointed recently so he is well aware of the correct places to be
        posting and what is on or off topic. He does not need to be reminded
        by junior members.

        Please use a little bit of effort to know or find out whom you are
        dealing with before firing shots across the bows. Reading a few
        archive & back posts is very informative.


        Slainte!
        regards Harry
      • billy.turf
        Riku, You have my full attention, sorry. THe boiler limit here is also 5L! I should have paid better attention. Billy
        Message 3 of 15 , May 30, 2008
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          Riku,
          You have my full attention, sorry. THe boiler limit here is also 5L! I
          should have paid better attention.
          Billy
        • abbababbaccc
          ... I ... In that case you might want to try this one: http://tinyurl.com/5boedy I haven t tried the combination but lower and upper parts do work separately.
          Message 4 of 15 , May 30, 2008
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            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "billy.turf" <billy.turf@...> wrote:
            >
            > Riku,
            > You have my full attention, sorry. THe boiler limit here is also 5L!
            I
            > should have paid better attention.
            > Billy
            >

            In that case you might want to try this one:
            http://tinyurl.com/5boedy

            I haven't tried the combination but lower and upper parts do work
            separately. That thing should give you 95.6% ABV ethanol + heads and
            leave tails behind. Adding a heads separation column would give you
            pure ethanol. If the combo won't work you can always use those column
            pieces separately in three column combo.

            Cheers, Riku
          • Arsene Lupin
            - About the AFC for stripper here s a good drawing: http://www.brygg.info/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10021/afc-striipper.png - About the design in the
            Message 5 of 15 , May 30, 2008
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              - About the AFC for stripper here's a good drawing:
              http://www.brygg.info/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10021/afc-striipper.png

              - About the design in the rkr folder, it doesnt leave the tails behind
              unless you discard alcohol. The reason is the boiler temp (and the
              bottom of the stripping) must be 100 C if you dont want to loose
              alcohol, but the tails accumulate around 80 /90 degrees, they are
              therefore trapped in the column and accumulate, the only escape being
              the top.


              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "billy.turf" <billy.turf@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Riku,
              > > You have my full attention, sorry. THe boiler limit here is also 5L!
              > I
              > > should have paid better attention.
              > > Billy
              > >
              >
              > In that case you might want to try this one:
              > http://tinyurl.com/5boedy
              >
              > I haven't tried the combination but lower and upper parts do work
              > separately. That thing should give you 95.6% ABV ethanol + heads and
              > leave tails behind. Adding a heads separation column would give you
              > pure ethanol. If the combo won't work you can always use those column
              > pieces separately in three column combo.
              >
              > Cheers, Riku
              >
            • gff_stwrt
              Hi, folks. Riku, unfortunately we are not allowed to produce alcohol, even from a little still. We can use it for distilling essential oils, or purifying water
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 1, 2008
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                Hi, folks.

                Riku, unfortunately we are not allowed to produce alcohol, even from
                a little still.

                We can use it for distilling essential oils, or purifying water and
                stuff like that.

                Regards,

                The Baker

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Billy,
                >
                > This is IMO relevant to our hobby. The system I described can not
                be
                > used for industrial scale stills as the boiling in bigger tube
                will
                > not cause enough spilling to make it work. Rather it would be
                quite
                > nice for some of our Australian friends who are limited to 5 liter
                > boilers by law.

                snip
                >
                > Cheers, Riku
                >
                >
              • mavnkaf
                ... quite ... rises ... flows ... fed ... untill ... column. ... Hi Riku, First up, I have been testing some very nice aged wheat germ spirits tonight, thanks
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
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                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I was asked about AFC so I thought I'll post my answer in here as
                  well:
                  >
                  > AFC is/was studied in swedish and norwegian forums so I don't think
                  > there's any thorough explanations in english. The principle is
                  quite
                  > simple. We have a reservoir for mash where the liquid level is kept
                  > constant (circulating pump works for that). For that reservoir mash
                  > goes to a pipe that goes into column close to the bottom. It then
                  rises
                  > up to the top of the packing. The reservoir is located so that the
                  > liquid level is the same is pipe length - ie. normally nothing
                  flows
                  > out of the pipe. Now when the temperature at the lower parts of the
                  > column rises above the boiling point of the mash the mash starts to
                  > boil and spurts mash to the top of the packing. When enough mash is
                  fed
                  > the temperature at the lower parts of the column drops and boiling
                  > ceases. This stops the feed and temperature starts to rise again
                  untill
                  > boiling starts again. Strippate is collected from the top of the
                  column.
                  >
                  > Cheers, Riku
                  >


                  Hi Riku,

                  First up, I have been testing some very nice aged wheat germ spirits
                  tonight, thanks to those who shared the recipe, they know who they
                  are, Thank you!!! ;0

                  Anyway Riku I have finnished (Harry's LM/VM Dual Head) suggestion a
                  little while ago and going test it on the 4/6/08. (got pictures
                  comming).

                  My next still to make wil be a continuous stripper still. The wash
                  feed is always a concern but I think the AFC is a good way to go and
                  it might help me to unstand the ARC concepts.

                  There is one thing I must clear up. For the AFC one must have column
                  packing, right?

                  Cheers
                  Marc
                • mavnkaf
                  ... think ... kept ... mash ... the ... the ... to ... is ... boiling ... spirits ... and ... column ... I should say I knew it had packing but how do you pack
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
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                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I was asked about AFC so I thought I'll post my answer in here as
                    > well:
                    > >
                    > > AFC is/was studied in swedish and norwegian forums so I don't
                    think
                    > > there's any thorough explanations in english. The principle is
                    > quite
                    > > simple. We have a reservoir for mash where the liquid level is
                    kept
                    > > constant (circulating pump works for that). For that reservoir
                    mash
                    > > goes to a pipe that goes into column close to the bottom. It then
                    > rises
                    > > up to the top of the packing. The reservoir is located so that
                    the
                    > > liquid level is the same is pipe length - ie. normally nothing
                    > flows
                    > > out of the pipe. Now when the temperature at the lower parts of
                    the
                    > > column rises above the boiling point of the mash the mash starts
                    to
                    > > boil and spurts mash to the top of the packing. When enough mash
                    is
                    > fed
                    > > the temperature at the lower parts of the column drops and
                    boiling
                    > > ceases. This stops the feed and temperature starts to rise again
                    > untill
                    > > boiling starts again. Strippate is collected from the top of the
                    > column.
                    > >
                    > > Cheers, Riku
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Riku,
                    >
                    > First up, I have been testing some very nice aged wheat germ
                    spirits
                    > tonight, thanks to those who shared the recipe, they know who they
                    > are, Thank you!!! ;0
                    >
                    > Anyway Riku I have finnished (Harry's LM/VM Dual Head) suggestion a
                    > little while ago and going test it on the 4/6/08. (got pictures
                    > comming).
                    >
                    > My next still to make wil be a continuous stripper still. The wash
                    > feed is always a concern but I think the AFC is a good way to go
                    and
                    > it might help me to unstand the ARC concepts.
                    >
                    > There is one thing I must clear up. For the AFC one must have
                    column
                    > packing, right?
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    > Marc
                    >


                    I should say I knew it had packing but how do you pack a column that
                    has a tube up the guts of it? ( middle). So the colunm must be
                    modular right? Have the abiltity to be pulled apart? Right?

                    Cherrs
                    Marc
                  • Arsene Lupin
                    ... Continuous columns are difficult to design and understand, I suggest you implement ARC & AFC in the continuous column once you are aquainted with the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
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                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I was asked about AFC so I thought I'll post my answer in here as
                      > > well:
                      > > >
                      > > > AFC is/was studied in swedish and norwegian forums so I don't
                      > think
                      > > > there's any thorough explanations in english. The principle is
                      > > quite
                      > > > simple. We have a reservoir for mash where the liquid level is
                      > kept
                      > > > constant (circulating pump works for that). For that reservoir
                      > mash
                      > > > goes to a pipe that goes into column close to the bottom. It then
                      > > rises
                      > > > up to the top of the packing. The reservoir is located so that
                      > the
                      > > > liquid level is the same is pipe length - ie. normally nothing
                      > > flows
                      > > > out of the pipe. Now when the temperature at the lower parts of
                      > the
                      > > > column rises above the boiling point of the mash the mash starts
                      > to
                      > > > boil and spurts mash to the top of the packing. When enough mash
                      > is
                      > > fed
                      > > > the temperature at the lower parts of the column drops and
                      > boiling
                      > > > ceases. This stops the feed and temperature starts to rise again
                      > > untill
                      > > > boiling starts again. Strippate is collected from the top of the
                      > > column.
                      > > >
                      > > > Cheers, Riku
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi Riku,
                      > >
                      > > First up, I have been testing some very nice aged wheat germ
                      > spirits
                      > > tonight, thanks to those who shared the recipe, they know who they
                      > > are, Thank you!!! ;0
                      > >
                      > > Anyway Riku I have finnished (Harry's LM/VM Dual Head) suggestion a
                      > > little while ago and going test it on the 4/6/08. (got pictures
                      > > comming).
                      > >
                      > > My next still to make wil be a continuous stripper still. The wash
                      > > feed is always a concern but I think the AFC is a good way to go
                      > and
                      > > it might help me to unstand the ARC concepts.
                      > >
                      > > There is one thing I must clear up. For the AFC one must have
                      > column
                      > > packing, right?
                      > >
                      > > Cheers
                      > > Marc
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > I should say I knew it had packing but how do you pack a column that
                      > has a tube up the guts of it? ( middle). So the colunm must be
                      > modular right? Have the abiltity to be pulled apart? Right?
                      >
                      > Cherrs
                      > Marc
                      >
                      Continuous columns are difficult to design and understand, I suggest
                      you implement ARC & AFC in the continuous column once you are
                      aquainted with the basics. Moreover there is a sizing issue.
                      Build you stripper, see the ABV you can get with 100C in the boiler
                      with your desired wash flow. THEN you may implement ARC & AFC.

                      I would like to add that continuous strippers are interesting because
                      they allow for energy reuse which seems like a point of design often
                      overlooked. If you dont reuse energy, the benefit is very limited,
                      you'll trade boiler size for column height, aquarium pump and a lot of
                      headache.

                      About packing, the AFC may be more or less intrusive but will allow
                      packing (just push the scrubbers from the other side of the tube).
                    • abbababbaccc
                      ... they ... a ... wash ... that ... You make a doughnut out of a potscrubber and put that around the AFC pipe and push it down. In case of AFC you need to be
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
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                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@> wrote:
                        > >> >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Riku,
                        > >
                        > > First up, I have been testing some very nice aged wheat germ
                        > spirits
                        > > tonight, thanks to those who shared the recipe, they know who
                        they
                        > > are, Thank you!!! ;0
                        > >
                        > > Anyway Riku I have finnished (Harry's LM/VM Dual Head) suggestion
                        a
                        > > little while ago and going test it on the 4/6/08. (got pictures
                        > > comming).
                        > >
                        > > My next still to make wil be a continuous stripper still. The
                        wash
                        > > feed is always a concern but I think the AFC is a good way to go
                        > and
                        > > it might help me to unstand the ARC concepts.
                        > >
                        > > There is one thing I must clear up. For the AFC one must have
                        > column
                        > > packing, right?
                        > >
                        > > Cheers
                        > > Marc
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > I should say I knew it had packing but how do you pack a column
                        that
                        > has a tube up the guts of it? ( middle). So the colunm must be
                        > modular right? Have the abiltity to be pulled apart? Right?
                        >
                        > Cherrs
                        > Marc
                        >


                        You make a doughnut out of a potscrubber and put that around the AFC
                        pipe and push it down. In case of AFC you need to be able to open the
                        column from top and from bottom to achieve proper packing. You could
                        use copper mesh as well but SS potsrcubbers will not corrode.

                        Cheers, Riku
                      • Trid
                        Just a bit of information regarding various control valves. It can be useful for following technical converstations/topics as well as background information
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
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                          Just a bit of information regarding various control valves. It can be useful
                          for following technical converstations/topics as well as background information
                          for more advanced tinkering.

                          http://www.kele.com/olcat/CV12/Valve_Selection_Terminology.pdf

                          Trid
                          -ever tinkering
                        • mavnkaf
                          Thanks Riku and Arsene for the replys, abit a late I know. I got a quick question about the AFC tube size and the length of the tube, when it is inside the 50
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 11, 2008
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                            Thanks Riku and Arsene for the replys, abit a late I know.

                            I got a quick question about the AFC tube size and the length of the
                            tube, when it is inside the 50 mm x 800 mm column, just keep in mind
                            the still will be only used as a continuous wash stripper for low
                            wines aiming for about 65%, I hope.

                            Cheers
                            Marc




                            "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>

                            You make a doughnut out of a potscrubber and put that around the AFC
                            pipe and push it down. In case of AFC you need to be able to open the
                            column from top and from bottom to achieve proper packing. You could
                            use copper mesh as well but SS potsrcubbers will not corrode.

                            Cheers, Riku

                            …………………………………………………………………

                            "Arsene Lupin" <ragnagna75012@...>

                            Continuous columns are difficult to design and understand, I suggest
                            you implement ARC & AFC in the continuous column once you are
                            aquainted with the basics. Moreover there is a sizing issue.
                            Build you stripper, see the ABV you can get with 100C in the boiler
                            with your desired wash flow. THEN you may implement ARC & AFC.

                            I would like to add that continuous strippers are interesting because
                            they allow for energy reuse which seems like a point of design often
                            overlooked. If you dont reuse energy, the benefit is very limited,
                            you'll trade boiler size for column height, aquarium pump and a lot of
                            headache.

                            About packing, the AFC may be more or less intrusive but will allow
                            packing (just push the scrubbers from the other side of the tube).
                          • abbababbaccc
                            8mm pipe, 80cm long has been tested in one meter column (IIRC)- Cheers, Riku
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 12, 2008
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                              8mm pipe, 80cm long has been tested in one meter column (IIRC)-

                              Cheers, Riku

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks Riku and Arsene for the replys, abit a late I know.
                              >
                              > I got a quick question about the AFC tube size and the length of the
                              > tube, when it is inside the 50 mm x 800 mm column, just keep in mind
                              > the still will be only used as a continuous wash stripper for low
                              > wines aiming for about 65%, I hope.
                              >
                              > Cheers
                              > Marc
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • mavnkaf
                              Thanks Riku, I thought it may have been 8 mm because I ve read you used 8 mm for the ARC set up. Now for the next step of the feed tank, which I think I have
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 17, 2008
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                                Thanks Riku, I thought it may have been 8 mm because I've read you
                                used 8 mm for the ARC set up.

                                Now for the next step of the feed tank, which I think I have got
                                worked out. I'm going to preheat the wash to 40 c with a fish tank
                                heater and use a small float valve (for gravity feed), that I found at
                                a pet store, its low pressure and deals with low volumes of water or in
                                my case, wash.

                                Cheers
                                Marc

                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > 8mm pipe, 80cm long has been tested in one meter column (IIRC)-
                                >
                                > Cheers, Riku
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