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  • jp_koning
    Hi to all. Since a couple of years I am active in distilling Brandy s Vodka en since some months also Whisky form malt extract. I know what I can expect to
    Message 1 of 9 , May 6, 2008
      Hi to all.

      Since a couple of years I am active in distilling Brandy's Vodka en
      since some months also Whisky form malt extract.
      I know what I can expect to smell and normally I can point the smell
      of the fermenting wort. (mostly fruity CO2)
      This time I decided to make a original Genever from equally parts of
      corn, rye and barley malt in a unusually large batch of 200 liters.
      I used Rye meal and corn meal and gelatinzed it at 80"C.
      After that I added the Barley malt and let it rest at 63"C.
      Unfortunally my chilling spiral was not sufficient for cooling such a
      huge batch and it took 12 hours overnight to cool down to 30".
      The next morning I found my wort bubbling and noticed a bad smell
      which I could not point out.
      Like vomit, I thought, but asking my neighbour he denied and said it
      was like rotten milk.
      I added a pound of bakers Yeast but till now (36hours later) it still
      smells bad and is still bubbling.
      I am wondering if It could be the lacto bacillus which is common on
      the rye and forms a co-fermentatiun with the yeast, or some strange
      infection of undefined art.
      Does anyone have a opinion about this? do I have to throw it away or
      can I give it a chance ?

      Proost, Ko.
    • mstehelin
      IF it was me I would let it finish. Stinky fermentation or not, you are going to distill it anyways. Who knows maybe you have stumbled upon a new and exciting
      Message 2 of 9 , May 6, 2008
        IF it was me I would let it finish.
        Stinky fermentation or not, you are going to distill it anyways.
        Who knows maybe you have stumbled upon a new and exciting product.
        Cheers
        M


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jp_koning" <info21@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi to all.
        >
        > Since a couple of years I am active in distilling Brandy's Vodka en
        > since some months also Whisky form malt extract.
        > I know what I can expect to smell and normally I can point the smell
        > of the fermenting wort. (mostly fruity CO2)
        > This time I decided to make a original Genever from equally parts of
        > corn, rye and barley malt in a unusually large batch of 200 liters.
        > I used Rye meal and corn meal and gelatinzed it at 80"C.
        > After that I added the Barley malt and let it rest at 63"C.
        > Unfortunally my chilling spiral was not sufficient for cooling such a
        > huge batch and it took 12 hours overnight to cool down to 30".
        > The next morning I found my wort bubbling and noticed a bad smell
        > which I could not point out.
        > Like vomit, I thought, but asking my neighbour he denied and said it
        > was like rotten milk.
        > I added a pound of bakers Yeast but till now (36hours later) it still
        > smells bad and is still bubbling.
        > I am wondering if It could be the lacto bacillus which is common on
        > the rye and forms a co-fermentatiun with the yeast, or some strange
        > infection of undefined art.
        > Does anyone have a opinion about this? do I have to throw it away or
        > can I give it a chance ?
        >
        > Proost, Ko.
        >
      • Trid
        ... I had something like this happen with some corn wash. The difference was that at the time, I didn t know anything about malt or what malt did, so I never
        Message 3 of 9 , May 6, 2008
          --- jp_koning <info21@...> wrote:

          > Hi to all.
          >
          > Since a couple of years I am active in distilling Brandy's Vodka en
          > since some months also Whisky form malt extract.
          > I know what I can expect to smell and normally I can point the smell
          > of the fermenting wort. (mostly fruity CO2)
          > This time I decided to make a original Genever from equally parts of
          > corn, rye and barley malt in a unusually large batch of 200 liters.
          > I used Rye meal and corn meal and gelatinzed it at 80"C.
          > After that I added the Barley malt and let it rest at 63"C.
          > Unfortunally my chilling spiral was not sufficient for cooling such a
          > huge batch and it took 12 hours overnight to cool down to 30".
          > The next morning I found my wort bubbling and noticed a bad smell
          > which I could not point out.
          > Like vomit, I thought, but asking my neighbour he denied and said it
          > was like rotten milk.
          > I added a pound of bakers Yeast but till now (36hours later) it still
          > smells bad and is still bubbling.
          > I am wondering if It could be the lacto bacillus which is common on
          > the rye and forms a co-fermentatiun with the yeast, or some strange
          > infection of undefined art.
          > Does anyone have a opinion about this? do I have to throw it away or
          > can I give it a chance ?

          I had something like this happen with some corn wash. The difference was that
          at the time, I didn't know anything about malt or what malt did, so I never
          converted the starches, and the wash rotted instead of fermented. I chased out
          a houseguest from the putrid smell (it made vomit seem pleasant) and SWMBO
          banned me from fermenting corn in the house from that point forth.

          My suspicion is that it's infected...HOWEVER, having done mango washes that
          release a lot of hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell) during fermentation, I've
          seen that after the nasty smell early on, it mellows out and finishes to a
          decent wash.

          So, from my perspective, perhaps a funky smell early on is better than a funky
          smell later on (fermentation by-products instead of long-term infection). A
          fellow brewer said of the egg smell "better out than in." I'd be inclined to
          let it ferment out for about 10 days to 2 weeks to see if the vomit smell
          decreases or even goes away before discarding the batch.

          Trid
          -prone to letting even mistakes run their course just to "see what happens"
        • jp_koning
          Hi again. I forgot to mention some things. After the mash sank below 58 C the iodine test went still black/ purple, so not all of the starches were converted,
          Message 4 of 9 , May 6, 2008
            Hi again.

            I forgot to mention some things.
            After the mash sank below 58"C the iodine test went still black/
            purple, so not all of the starches were converted, the refractometer
            however showed up 13 Brix / 1050 SG which was a prety good result.
            Because it was in a platic yar, I was not able to aply more heat for
            continued mashing.
            The Ph at the end of the mash was 4,8, a little at the accid side and
            not a good enviroment for bad bacteria.

            Proost, Ko.


            ?
            >
            > I had something like this happen with some corn wash. The
            difference was that
            > at the time, I didn't know anything about malt or what malt did,
            so I never
            > converted the starches, and the wash rotted instead of fermented.
            I chased out
            > a houseguest from the putrid smell (it made vomit seem pleasant)
            and SWMBO
            > banned me from fermenting corn in the house from that point forth.
            >
            > My suspicion is that it's infected...HOWEVER, having done mango
            washes that
            > release a lot of hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell) during
            fermentation, I've
            > seen that after the nasty smell early on, it mellows out and
            finishes to a
            > decent wash.
            >
            > So, from my perspective, perhaps a funky smell early on is better
            than a funky
            > smell later on (fermentation by-products instead of long-term
            infection). A
            > fellow brewer said of the egg smell "better out than in." I'd be
            inclined to
            > let it ferment out for about 10 days to 2 weeks to see if the
            vomit smell
            > decreases or even goes away before discarding the batch.
            >
            > Trid
            > -prone to letting even mistakes run their course just to "see what
            happens"
            >
          • Trid
            ... The acidity is a good thing, though it might be a little too acidic for the enzymes. As long as you didn t mash out as brewers would (to heat up the
            Message 5 of 9 , May 6, 2008
              --- jp_koning <info21@...> wrote:

              > Hi again.
              >
              > I forgot to mention some things.
              > After the mash sank below 58"C the iodine test went still black/
              > purple, so not all of the starches were converted, the refractometer
              > however showed up 13 Brix / 1050 SG which was a prety good result.
              > Because it was in a platic yar, I was not able to aply more heat for
              > continued mashing.
              > The Ph at the end of the mash was 4,8, a little at the accid side and
              > not a good enviroment for bad bacteria.

              The acidity is a good thing, though it might be a little too acidic for the
              enzymes. As long as you didn't "mash out" as brewers would (to heat up the
              mash high enough to destroy the enzymes) they're still active, just not as
              highly active as they would at mashing temperature. Go ahead and take a sample
              for another idodine test and see if it's still positive. Perhaps adding some
              fresh malted barley will help continue the conversion if it's still positive.
              This will raise the pH a little, but will contribute new enzymes for starch
              conversion. As long as the yeast is bubbling away and the pH doesn't get too
              low, it might do the trick.
              All in all, you might not have ruined it. A little time will tell.

              Trid
              -even though it's hard to be patient some times.
            • jp_koning
              Hi. As continuation on my first posting I want to share the results till now. On your advice (thanks Mstehelin and Triddlywinks) I let the wort sit and after
              Message 6 of 9 , May 29, 2008
                Hi.

                As continuation on my first posting I want to share the results till
                now.

                On your advice (thanks Mstehelin and Triddlywinks) I let the wort sit
                and after about 10 days it the bostel did sank enough to the bottom
                to pump out about 2/3 relatively clear product, about 150 L, the
                residu I dumped in the sink.
                Because I had to go on vacation I did a stripping run on the "beer"
                and distilled out some 20 L 45% low wine and left.
                Both the low wine and the remaining "water" did smell bad as I
                mentioned in the beginning, like vomit.
                After I came back after another 10 days the low wine smells fine, not
                exellent, but malty and without the vomit smell.

                During the stripping run I noticed something strange I did not seen
                before.
                As outlet for the distillate I use a silicone hose, but during the
                proces there occured black stain spots on the inner side of the hose.
                Flushing the hose with hot water did not remove those stain so it is
                still there.
                It looks like smoke, but because smoke is a solid it can not came
                over during the distillation and wonder what it could be.
                The stripper is made of stainless steel and also some copper pipe.

                Proost, Ko.






                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jp_koning" <info21@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi to all.
                >
                > Since a couple of years I am active in distilling Brandy's Vodka en
                > since some months also Whisky form malt extract.
                > I know what I can expect to smell and normally I can point the
                smell
                > of the fermenting wort. (mostly fruity CO2)
                > This time I decided to make a original Genever from equally parts
                of
                > corn, rye and barley malt in a unusually large batch of 200 liters.
                > I used Rye meal and corn meal and gelatinzed it at 80"C.
                > After that I added the Barley malt and let it rest at 63"C.
                > Unfortunally my chilling spiral was not sufficient for cooling such
                a
                > huge batch and it took 12 hours overnight to cool down to 30".
                > The next morning I found my wort bubbling and noticed a bad smell
                > which I could not point out.
                > Like vomit, I thought, but asking my neighbour he denied and said
                it
                > was like rotten milk.
                > I added a pound of bakers Yeast but till now (36hours later) it
                still
                > smells bad and is still bubbling.
                > I am wondering if It could be the lacto bacillus which is common on
                > the rye and forms a co-fermentatiun with the yeast, or some strange
                > infection of undefined art.
                > Does anyone have a opinion about this? do I have to throw it away
                or
                > can I give it a chance ?
                >
                > Proost, Ko.
                >
              • mstehelin
                Hello Mr Koning, was your distillate warm when it came out of the end? It sounds like it received some heat. Should be OK. I am glad that your stinky mash has
                Message 7 of 9 , May 29, 2008
                  Hello Mr Koning,
                  was your distillate warm when it came out of the end?
                  It sounds like it received some heat. Should be OK.
                  I am glad that your stinky mash has resulted in acceptable alcohol.
                  Did you run the still slower on the 2nd run?
                  Cheers
                  M

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jp_koning" <info21@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi.
                  >
                  > As continuation on my first posting I want to share the results till
                  > now.
                  >
                  > On your advice (thanks Mstehelin and Triddlywinks) I let the wort sit
                  > and after about 10 days it the bostel did sank enough to the bottom
                  > to pump out about 2/3 relatively clear product, about 150 L, the
                  > residu I dumped in the sink.
                  > Because I had to go on vacation I did a stripping run on the "beer"
                  > and distilled out some 20 L 45% low wine and left.
                  > Both the low wine and the remaining "water" did smell bad as I
                  > mentioned in the beginning, like vomit.
                  > After I came back after another 10 days the low wine smells fine, not
                  > exellent, but malty and without the vomit smell.
                  >
                  > During the stripping run I noticed something strange I did not seen
                  > before.
                  > As outlet for the distillate I use a silicone hose, but during the
                  > proces there occured black stain spots on the inner side of the hose.
                  > Flushing the hose with hot water did not remove those stain so it is
                  > still there.
                  > It looks like smoke, but because smoke is a solid it can not came
                  > over during the distillation and wonder what it could be.
                  > The stripper is made of stainless steel and also some copper pipe.
                  >
                  > Proost, Ko.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jp_koning" <info21@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi to all.
                  > >
                  > > Since a couple of years I am active in distilling Brandy's Vodka en
                  > > since some months also Whisky form malt extract.
                  > > I know what I can expect to smell and normally I can point the
                  > smell
                  > > of the fermenting wort. (mostly fruity CO2)
                  > > This time I decided to make a original Genever from equally parts
                  > of
                  > > corn, rye and barley malt in a unusually large batch of 200 liters.
                  > > I used Rye meal and corn meal and gelatinzed it at 80"C.
                  > > After that I added the Barley malt and let it rest at 63"C.
                  > > Unfortunally my chilling spiral was not sufficient for cooling such
                  > a
                  > > huge batch and it took 12 hours overnight to cool down to 30".
                  > > The next morning I found my wort bubbling and noticed a bad smell
                  > > which I could not point out.
                  > > Like vomit, I thought, but asking my neighbour he denied and said
                  > it
                  > > was like rotten milk.
                  > > I added a pound of bakers Yeast but till now (36hours later) it
                  > still
                  > > smells bad and is still bubbling.
                  > > I am wondering if It could be the lacto bacillus which is common on
                  > > the rye and forms a co-fermentatiun with the yeast, or some strange
                  > > infection of undefined art.
                  > > Does anyone have a opinion about this? do I have to throw it away
                  > or
                  > > can I give it a chance ?
                  > >
                  > > Proost, Ko.
                  > >
                  >
                • jp_koning
                  Yes, my distillate was a bit warm when it came out, I think about 40 C. BTW, I did not do a second run by now. I want to collect the result of some more
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 29, 2008
                    Yes, my distillate was a bit warm when it came out, I think about 40
                    C.
                    BTW, I did not do a second run by now.
                    I want to collect the result of some more batches to mix and match
                    the volume of my still which can hold 50 Liters.

                    Proost, Ko.





                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Mr Koning,
                    > was your distillate warm when it came out of the end?
                    > It sounds like it received some heat. Should be OK.
                    > I am glad that your stinky mash has resulted in acceptable alcohol.
                    > Did you run the still slower on the 2nd run?
                    > Cheers
                    > M
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jp_koning" <info21@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi.
                    > >
                    > > As continuation on my first posting I want to share the results
                    till
                    > > now.
                    > >
                    > > On your advice (thanks Mstehelin and Triddlywinks) I let the wort
                    sit
                    > > and after about 10 days it the bostel did sank enough to the
                    bottom
                    > > to pump out about 2/3 relatively clear product, about 150 L, the
                    > > residu I dumped in the sink.
                    > > Because I had to go on vacation I did a stripping run on the
                    "beer"
                    > > and distilled out some 20 L 45% low wine and left.
                    > > Both the low wine and the remaining "water" did smell bad as I
                    > > mentioned in the beginning, like vomit.
                    > > After I came back after another 10 days the low wine smells fine,
                    not
                    > > exellent, but malty and without the vomit smell.
                    > >
                    > > During the stripping run I noticed something strange I did not
                    seen
                    > > before.
                    > > As outlet for the distillate I use a silicone hose, but during
                    the
                    > > proces there occured black stain spots on the inner side of the
                    hose.
                    > > Flushing the hose with hot water did not remove those stain so it
                    is
                    > > still there.
                    > > It looks like smoke, but because smoke is a solid it can not came
                    > > over during the distillation and wonder what it could be.
                    > > The stripper is made of stainless steel and also some copper pipe.
                    > >
                    > > Proost, Ko.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jp_koning" <info21@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi to all.
                    > > >
                    > > > Since a couple of years I am active in distilling Brandy's
                    Vodka en
                    > > > since some months also Whisky form malt extract.
                    > > > I know what I can expect to smell and normally I can point the
                    > > smell
                    > > > of the fermenting wort. (mostly fruity CO2)
                    > > > This time I decided to make a original Genever from equally
                    parts
                    > > of
                    > > > corn, rye and barley malt in a unusually large batch of 200
                    liters.
                    > > > I used Rye meal and corn meal and gelatinzed it at 80"C.
                    > > > After that I added the Barley malt and let it rest at 63"C.
                    > > > Unfortunally my chilling spiral was not sufficient for cooling
                    such
                    > > a
                    > > > huge batch and it took 12 hours overnight to cool down to 30".
                    > > > The next morning I found my wort bubbling and noticed a bad
                    smell
                    > > > which I could not point out.
                    > > > Like vomit, I thought, but asking my neighbour he denied and
                    said
                    > > it
                    > > > was like rotten milk.
                    > > > I added a pound of bakers Yeast but till now (36hours later) it
                    > > still
                    > > > smells bad and is still bubbling.
                    > > > I am wondering if It could be the lacto bacillus which is
                    common on
                    > > > the rye and forms a co-fermentatiun with the yeast, or some
                    strange
                    > > > infection of undefined art.
                    > > > Does anyone have a opinion about this? do I have to throw it
                    away
                    > > or
                    > > > can I give it a chance ?
                    > > >
                    > > > Proost, Ko.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • mstehelin
                    Sounds good. You know about not filling your still completely up, and running slow for your spirits run right? When you do your spirit run, do you fill small
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 29, 2008
                      Sounds good. You know about not filling your still completely up, and
                      running slow for your spirits run right? When you do your spirit run,
                      do you fill small bottles in order to make good cuts? This will
                      improve your product.
                      Cheers
                      M

                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jp_koning" <info21@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, my distillate was a bit warm when it came out, I think about 40
                      > C.
                      > BTW, I did not do a second run by now.
                      > I want to collect the result of some more batches to mix and match
                      > the volume of my still which can hold 50 Liters.
                      >
                      > Proost, Ko.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Mr Koning,
                      > > was your distillate warm when it came out of the end?
                      > > It sounds like it received some heat. Should be OK.
                      > > I am glad that your stinky mash has resulted in acceptable alcohol.
                      > > Did you run the still slower on the 2nd run?
                      > > Cheers
                      > > M
                      > >
                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jp_koning" <info21@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi.
                      > > >
                      > > > As continuation on my first posting I want to share the results
                      > till
                      > > > now.
                      > > >
                      > > > On your advice (thanks Mstehelin and Triddlywinks) I let the wort
                      > sit
                      > > > and after about 10 days it the bostel did sank enough to the
                      > bottom
                      > > > to pump out about 2/3 relatively clear product, about 150 L, the
                      > > > residu I dumped in the sink.
                      > > > Because I had to go on vacation I did a stripping run on the
                      > "beer"
                      > > > and distilled out some 20 L 45% low wine and left.
                      > > > Both the low wine and the remaining "water" did smell bad as I
                      > > > mentioned in the beginning, like vomit.
                      > > > After I came back after another 10 days the low wine smells fine,
                      > not
                      > > > exellent, but malty and without the vomit smell.
                      > > >
                      > > > During the stripping run I noticed something strange I did not
                      > seen
                      > > > before.
                      > > > As outlet for the distillate I use a silicone hose, but during
                      > the
                      > > > proces there occured black stain spots on the inner side of the
                      > hose.
                      > > > Flushing the hose with hot water did not remove those stain so it
                      > is
                      > > > still there.
                      > > > It looks like smoke, but because smoke is a solid it can not came
                      > > > over during the distillation and wonder what it could be.
                      > > > The stripper is made of stainless steel and also some copper pipe.
                      > > >
                      > > > Proost, Ko.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jp_koning" <info21@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi to all.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Since a couple of years I am active in distilling Brandy's
                      > Vodka en
                      > > > > since some months also Whisky form malt extract.
                      > > > > I know what I can expect to smell and normally I can point the
                      > > > smell
                      > > > > of the fermenting wort. (mostly fruity CO2)
                      > > > > This time I decided to make a original Genever from equally
                      > parts
                      > > > of
                      > > > > corn, rye and barley malt in a unusually large batch of 200
                      > liters.
                      > > > > I used Rye meal and corn meal and gelatinzed it at 80"C.
                      > > > > After that I added the Barley malt and let it rest at 63"C.
                      > > > > Unfortunally my chilling spiral was not sufficient for cooling
                      > such
                      > > > a
                      > > > > huge batch and it took 12 hours overnight to cool down to 30".
                      > > > > The next morning I found my wort bubbling and noticed a bad
                      > smell
                      > > > > which I could not point out.
                      > > > > Like vomit, I thought, but asking my neighbour he denied and
                      > said
                      > > > it
                      > > > > was like rotten milk.
                      > > > > I added a pound of bakers Yeast but till now (36hours later) it
                      > > > still
                      > > > > smells bad and is still bubbling.
                      > > > > I am wondering if It could be the lacto bacillus which is
                      > common on
                      > > > > the rye and forms a co-fermentatiun with the yeast, or some
                      > strange
                      > > > > infection of undefined art.
                      > > > > Does anyone have a opinion about this? do I have to throw it
                      > away
                      > > > or
                      > > > > can I give it a chance ?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Proost, Ko.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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