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Fractionating Still (Working off)

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  • Cor
    Hello every body, My name is Cor and Im living in Holland, I have ask the following question to the New_Distiller Group bud they send me to the more advanced
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 29 9:25 AM
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      Hello every body,

      My name is Cor and Im living in Holland,
      I have ask the following question to the "New_Distiller Group"
      bud they send me to the more advanced one's.
      Is there some one who can explain the working of the heating of a
      Fractionating Still, the kind that is build by A. Holstein and/or
      Christian Carl?
      What I want to now is, the working of the indirect heating.
      If the water bath that heat up the ketel becomes 100 degrees Celsius,
      is there the same effect of a pressure cooker? or what?
      The reason of this question is that I want to build one by my self.
      I have read the messages of the experiments with the water and oil
      baths, bud Im stil wondering:Lets say you need a heating oil
      temperature of about 110 degrees Celsius (to be sure that the mash
      ketel become lets say 95 degrees celsius) What will hapends if the
      mash ketel become leak (with out nowing this)?
      Is there the possibility that everything is blowing up?
      The use of oil is very interesting because the temperature you can
      get is higher than boiling water without loosing steam and/or smoke.
      Is there some one who have build a still this way with a positif
      result?

      Im very curious to the answers of this subject.

      Thank you in advance, Cor.
    • Robert Hubble
      Hi Cor, Let me start by saying I have not yet built a still using liquid bath transfer heating, bBut I ve done a lot of research and calculation while planning
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 29 11:13 AM
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        Hi Cor,
         
        Let me start by saying I have not yet built a still using liquid bath transfer heating, bBut I've done a lot of research and calculation while planning to do just that, and perhaps my work might just shed light on your question.
         
        My choices were made based on a need to get a sufficiently high boiling point in the transfer liquid, to ensure a heat transfer rate greater than the output of my gas burner with a wash temperature approaching 100C, a common situation for a potstiller doing beer-stripping runs.
         
        My first choice was boiling water at about 1 atm pressure. This gives the necessary temperature differential for heat transfer, but building a largish vessel pressurized to 1 atm kinda scared me off. Next I thought of old-fashioned automotive antifreeze, ethylene glycol. Again, passable heat differential but the toxicity around drinking alcohol scared me off. I finally settled on propylene glycol, readily available, non-toxic, good temperature differential, and sufficiently high specific heat to work, and I'm currently saving for the high-priced welding work to implement this change to my latest still.
         
        I never really considered oil.
         
        I hope this helps you.
         
        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller



        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        From: corrohner@...
        Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:25:10 +0000
        Subject: [Distillers] Fractionating Still (Working off)

        Hello every body,

        My name is Cor and Im living in Holland,
        I have ask the following question to the "New_Distiller Group"
        bud they send me to the more advanced one's.
        Is there some one who can explain the working of the heating of a
        Fractionating Still, the kind that is build by A. Holstein and/or
        Christian Carl?
        What I want to now is, the working of the indirect heating.
        If the water bath that heat up the ketel becomes 100 degrees Celsius,
        is there the same effect of a pressure cooker? or what?
        The reason of this question is that I want to build one by my self.
        I have read the messages of the experiments with the water and oil
        baths, bud Im stil wondering:Lets say you need a heating oil
        temperature of about 110 degrees Celsius (to be sure that the mash
        ketel become lets say 95 degrees celsius) What will hapends if the
        mash ketel become leak (with out nowing this)?
        Is there the possibility that everything is blowing up?
        The use of oil is very interesting because the temperature you can
        get is higher than boiling water without loosing steam and/or smoke.
        Is there some one who have build a still this way with a positif
        result?

        Im very curious to the answers of this subject.

        Thank you in advance, Cor.




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      • Trid
        ... I ve been giving consideration towards oil. I had originally envisioned mineral oil. While batting the idea around, peanut oil seems like a more likely
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 29 1:26 PM
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          --- Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote

          > My first choice was boiling water at about 1 atm pressure. This gives the
          > necessary temperature differential for heat transfer, but building a largish
          > vessel pressurized to 1 atm kinda scared me off. Next I thought of
          > old-fashioned automotive antifreeze, ethylene glycol. Again, passable heat
          > differential but the toxicity around drinking alcohol scared me off. I
          > finally settled on propylene glycol, readily available, non-toxic, good
          > temperature differential, and sufficiently high specific heat to work, and
          > I'm currently saving for the high-priced welding work to implement this
          > change to my latest still.
          >
          > I never really considered oil.

          I've been giving consideration towards oil. I had originally envisioned
          mineral oil. While batting the idea around, peanut oil seems like a more
          likely choice due to high smoke temperature (231C/448F), being readily
          available, and environmentally friendlier due to not being petroleum based.
          The advantage of an oil bath is that you can get significantly hotter than a
          water/glycol mix with no pressure needed.

          I have a small prototype boiler (5 qt) I'm going to test this theory out with.

          Trid
          -and if it doesn't work, I'll make me some biodiesel
        • DDT
          Welcome Cor, I have not used a baine marie before but I have a friend in Germany who distills exclusively with this type of boiler on a pot still. He uses auto
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 30 11:50 AM
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            Welcome Cor,

            I have not used a baine marie before but I have a friend in Germany who
            distills exclusively with this type of boiler on a pot still.

            He uses auto coolant and does not use a pressure vessel. His still is
            wood fired and he
            keeps the coolant just below boiling. He is a farmer and mostly
            distills fruit from his farm.

            There are 2 different types of coolant in the US.:

            Ethylene glycol which is poisonous and can also cause birth defects
            if you accidentally
            drink it.

            Propylene glycol is a newer replacement which is much less toxic.

            ONLY USE propylene glycol!

            >My name is Cor and Im living in Holland,
            >I have ask the following question to the "New_Distiller Group"
            >bud they send me to the more advanced one's.
            >Is there some one who can explain the working of the heating of a
            >Fractionating Still, the kind that is build by A. Holstein and/or
            >Christian Carl?
            >What I want to now is, the working of the indirect heating.
            >If the water bath that heat up the ketel becomes 100 degrees Celsius,
            >is there the same effect of a pressure cooker? or what?
            >The reason of this question is that I want to build one by my self.
            >I have read the messages of the experiments with the water and oil
            >baths, bud Im stil wondering:Lets say you need a heating oil
            >temperature of about 110 degrees Celsius (to be sure that the mash
            >ketel become lets say 95 degrees celsius) What will hapends if the
            >mash ketel become leak (with out nowing this)?
            >Is there the possibility that everything is blowing up?
            >The use of oil is very interesting because the temperature you can
            >get is higher than boiling water without loosing steam and/or smoke.
            >Is there some one who have build a still this way with a positif
            >result?
            >
            >Im very curious to the answers of this subject.
            >
            >Thank you in advance, Cor.
          • Harry
            ... who ... Heat-transfer fluid A gas or liquid used to move heat energy from one place to another. Refrigerants are well-known examples of heat-transfer
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 30 12:16 PM
            • 0 Attachment


              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, DDT <luckydraw@...> wrote:
              >
              > Welcome Cor,
              >
              > I have not used a baine marie before but I have a friend in Germany who
              > distills exclusively with this type of boiler on a pot still.
              >
              > He uses auto coolant and does not use a pressure vessel. His still is
              > wood fired and he
              > keeps the coolant just below boiling. He is a farmer and mostly
              > distills fruit from his farm.
              >
              > There are 2 different types of coolant in the US.:
              >
              > Ethylene glycol which is poisonous and can also cause birth defects
              > if you accidentally
              > drink it.
              >
              > Propylene glycol is a newer replacement which is much less toxic.
              >
              > ONLY USE propylene glycol!

               

               

              Heat-transfer fluid

              A gas or liquid used to move heat energy from one place to another. Refrigerants are well-known examples of heat-transfer fluids.


              Heat-transfer fluids selection criteria 

              When selecting a heat-transfer fluid, you should consider the following criteria:

              Coefficient of expansion – the fractional change in length (or sometimes in volume, when specified) of a material for a unit change in temperature

              Viscosity – resistance of a liquid to sheer forces (and hence to flow)

              Thermal capacity – the ability of matter to store heat

              Freezing point – the temperature below which a liquid turns into a solid

              Boiling point – the temperature at which a liquid boils

              Flash point – the lowest temperature at which the vapor above a liquid can be ignited in air.

              For example, in a cold climate, solar water heating systems require fluids with low freezing points. Fluids exposed to high temperatures, as in a desert climate, should have a high boiling point. Viscosity and thermal capacity determine the amount of pumping energy required. A fluid with low viscosity and high specific heat is easier to pump, because it is less resistant to flow and transfers more heat. Other properties that help determine the effectiveness of a fluid are its corrosiveness and stability.


              Types of heat-transfer fluids

               

              The following are some of the most commonly used heat-transfer fluids and their properties:

              Air



              Air will not freeze or boil, and is non-corrosive. However, it has a very low heat capacity, and tends to leak out of collectors, ducts, and dampers.

              Water



              Water is nontoxic and inexpensive. With a high specific heat, and a very low viscosity, it's easy to pump. Unfortunately, water has a relatively low boiling point and a high freezing point. It can also be corrosive if the pH (acidity/alkalinity level) is not maintained at a neutral level. Water with a high mineral content (i.e., "hard" water) can cause mineral deposits to form in collector tubing and system plumbing.

              Glycol/water mixtures



              Glycol/water mixtures have a 50/50 or 60/40 glycol-to-water ratio. Ethylene and propylene glycol are "antifreezes." Ethylene glycol is extremely toxic and should only be used in a double-walled, closed-loop system. You can use food-grade propylene glycol/water mixtures in a single-walled heat exchanger, as long as the mixture has been certified as nontoxic. Make sure that no toxic dyes or inhibitors have been added to it. Most glycols deteriorate at very high temperatures. You must check the pH value, freezing point, and concentration of inhibitors annually to determine whether the mixture needs any adjustments or replacements to maintain its stability and effectiveness.

              Hydrocarbon oils



              Hydrocarbon oils have a higher viscosity and lower specific heat than water. They require more energy to pump. These oils are relatively inexpensive and have a low freezing point. The basic categories of hydrocarbon oils are synthetic hydrocarbons, paraffin hydrocarbons, and aromatic refined mineral oils. Synthetic hydrocarbons are relatively nontoxic and require little maintenance. Paraffin hydrocarbons have a wider temperature range between freezing and boiling points than water, but they are toxic and require a double-walled, closed-loop heat exchanger. Aromatic oils are the least viscous of the hydrocarbon oils.

              Refrigerants/phase change fluids



              These are commonly used as the heat transfer fluid in refrigerators, air conditioners, and heat pumps. They generally have a low boiling point and a high heat capacity. This enables a small amount of the refrigerant to transfer a large amount of heat very efficiently. Refrigerants respond quickly to solar heat, making them more effective on cloudy days than other transfer fluids. Heat absorption occurs when the refrigerant boils (changes phase from liquid to gas) in the solar collector. Release of the collected heat takes place when the now-gaseous refrigerant condenses to a liquid again in a heat exchanger or condenser. For years chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) refrigerants, such as Freon, were the primary fluids used by refrigerator, air-conditioner, and heat pump manufacturers because they are nonflammable, low in toxicity, stable, noncorrosive, and do not freeze. However, due the negative effect that CFCs have on the earth's ozone layer, CFC production is being phased out, as is the production of hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFC). The few companies that produced refrigerant-charged solar systems have either stopped manufacturing the systems entirely, or are currently seeking alternative refrigerants. Some companies have investigated methyl alcohol as a replacement for refrigerants.If you currently own a refrigerant-charged solar system and it needs servicing, you should contact your local solar or refrigeration service professional. Since Jul. 1, 1992, intentional venting of CFCs and HCFCs during service and maintenance or disposal of the equipment containing these compounds is illegal and punishable by stiff fines. Although production of CFCs ceased in the U.S. 1996, a licensed refrigeration technician can still service your system. You may wish to contact your service professional to discuss the possible replacement of the CFC refrigerant with methyl alcohol or some other heat transfer fluid.

              Ammonia can also be used as a refrigerant. It's commonly used in industrial applications. Due to safety considerations it's not used in residential systems. The refrigerants can be aqueous ammonia or a calcium chloride ammonia mixture.

              Silicones



              Silicones have a very low freezing point, and a very high boiling point. They are noncorrosive and long-lasting. Because silicones have a high viscosity and low heat capacities, they require more energy to pump. Silicones also leak easily, even through microscopic holes in a solar loop.


              Source: US Department of Energy

               

              Slainte!
              regards Harry

            • Cor
              -Thank you all, The information you sent is very usefull for me. I think that Im gonna use Propylene glycol. It seems to me that its the one that will do the
              Message 6 of 11 , May 1, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                -Thank you all,

                The information you sent is very usefull for me.
                I think that Im gonna use Propylene glycol.
                It seems to me that its the one that will do the job, it gots the
                right specifications and is less toxit than Ethylene Glycol.
                Using oil is out off the question for me.
                I have to do some telephone calls overhere (I want the pure stuff)but
                i gonna try to get it.
                Im stil busy with preparing my Still but when it is finished I
                promise I send some pitures of it.

                Best regards from Holland, Cor


                -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, DDT <luckydraw@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Welcome Cor,
                > >
                > > I have not used a baine marie before but I have a friend in
                Germany
                > who
                > > distills exclusively with this type of boiler on a pot still.
                > >
                > > He uses auto coolant and does not use a pressure vessel. His
                still is
                > > wood fired and he
                > > keeps the coolant just below boiling. He is a farmer and mostly
                > > distills fruit from his farm.
                > >
                > > There are 2 different types of coolant in the US.:
                > >
                > > Ethylene glycol which is poisonous and can also cause birth
                defects
                > > if you accidentally
                > > drink it.
                > >
                > > Propylene glycol is a newer replacement which is much less toxic.
                > >
                > > ONLY USE propylene glycol!
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Heat-transfer fluid
                >
                > A gas or liquid used to move heat energy from one place to another.
                > Refrigerants are well-known examples of heat-transfer fluids.
                >
                >
                > Heat-transfer fluids selection criteria
                >
                > When selecting a heat-transfer fluid, you should consider the
                following
                > criteria:
                >
                > Coefficient of expansion – the fractional change in length (or
                > sometimes in volume, when specified) of a material for a unit
                change in
                > temperature
                >
                > Viscosity – resistance of a liquid to sheer forces (and hence to
                > flow)
                >
                > Thermal capacity – the ability of matter to store heat
                >
                > Freezing point – the temperature below which a liquid turns into a
                > solid
                >
                > Boiling point – the temperature at which a liquid boils
                >
                > Flash point – the lowest temperature at which the vapor above a
                > liquid can be ignited in air.
                >
                > For example, in a cold climate, solar water heating systems require
                > fluids with low freezing points. Fluids exposed to high
                temperatures, as
                > in a desert climate, should have a high boiling point. Viscosity and
                > thermal capacity determine the amount of pumping energy required. A
                > fluid with low viscosity and high specific heat is easier to pump,
                > because it is less resistant to flow and transfers more heat. Other
                > properties that help determine the effectiveness of a fluid are its
                > corrosiveness and stability.
                >
                >
                > Types of heat-transfer fluids
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The following are some of the most commonly used heat-transfer
                fluids
                > and their properties:
                >
                > Air
                >
                > Air will not freeze or boil, and is non-corrosive. However, it has a
                > very low heat capacity, and tends to leak out of collectors, ducts,
                and
                > dampers.
                >
                > Water
                >
                > Water is nontoxic and inexpensive. With a high specific heat, and a
                very
                > low viscosity, it's easy to pump. Unfortunately, water has a
                relatively
                > low boiling point and a high freezing point. It can also be
                corrosive if
                > the pH (acidity/alkalinity level) is not maintained at a neutral
                level.
                > Water with a high mineral content (i.e., "hard" water) can cause
                mineral
                > deposits to form in collector tubing and system plumbing.
                >
                > Glycol/water mixtures
                >
                > Glycol/water mixtures have a 50/50 or 60/40 glycol-to-water ratio.
                > Ethylene and propylene glycol are "antifreezes." Ethylene glycol is
                > extremely toxic and should only be used in a double-walled, closed-
                loop
                > system. You can use food-grade propylene glycol/water mixtures in a
                > single-walled heat exchanger, as long as the mixture has been
                certified
                > as nontoxic. Make sure that no toxic dyes or inhibitors have been
                added
                > to it. Most glycols deteriorate at very high temperatures. You must
                > check the pH value, freezing point, and concentration of inhibitors
                > annually to determine whether the mixture needs any adjustments or
                > replacements to maintain its stability and effectiveness.
                >
                > Hydrocarbon oils
                >
                > Hydrocarbon oils have a higher viscosity and lower specific heat
                than
                > water. They require more energy to pump. These oils are relatively
                > inexpensive and have a low freezing point. The basic categories of
                > hydrocarbon oils are synthetic hydrocarbons, paraffin hydrocarbons,
                and
                > aromatic refined mineral oils. Synthetic hydrocarbons are relatively
                > nontoxic and require little maintenance. Paraffin hydrocarbons have
                a
                > wider temperature range between freezing and boiling points than
                water,
                > but they are toxic and require a double-walled, closed-loop heat
                > exchanger. Aromatic oils are the least viscous of the hydrocarbon
                oils.
                >
                > Refrigerants/phase change fluids
                >
                > These are commonly used as the heat transfer fluid in
                refrigerators, air
                > conditioners, and heat pumps. They generally have a low boiling
                point
                > and a high heat capacity. This enables a small amount of the
                refrigerant
                > to transfer a large amount of heat very efficiently. Refrigerants
                > respond quickly to solar heat, making them more effective on cloudy
                days
                > than other transfer fluids. Heat absorption occurs when the
                refrigerant
                > boils (changes phase from liquid to gas) in the solar collector.
                Release
                > of the collected heat takes place when the now-gaseous refrigerant
                > condenses to a liquid again in a heat exchanger or condenser. For
                years
                > chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) refrigerants, such as Freon, were the
                primary
                > fluids used by refrigerator, air-conditioner, and heat pump
                > manufacturers because they are nonflammable, low in toxicity,
                stable,
                > noncorrosive, and do not freeze. However, due the negative effect
                that
                > CFCs have on the earth's ozone layer, CFC production is being phased
                > out, as is the production of hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFC). The
                few
                > companies that produced refrigerant-charged solar systems have
                either
                > stopped manufacturing the systems entirely, or are currently seeking
                > alternative refrigerants. Some companies have investigated methyl
                > alcohol as a replacement for refrigerants.If you currently own a
                > refrigerant-charged solar system and it needs servicing, you should
                > contact your local solar or refrigeration service professional.
                Since
                > Jul. 1, 1992, intentional venting of CFCs and HCFCs during service
                and
                > maintenance or disposal of the equipment containing these compounds
                is
                > illegal and punishable by stiff fines. Although production of CFCs
                > ceased in the U.S. 1996, a licensed refrigeration technician can
                still
                > service your system. You may wish to contact your service
                professional
                > to discuss the possible replacement of the CFC refrigerant with
                methyl
                > alcohol or some other heat transfer fluid.
                >
                > Ammonia can also be used as a refrigerant. It's commonly used in
                > industrial applications. Due to safety considerations it's not used
                in
                > residential systems. The refrigerants can be aqueous ammonia or a
                > calcium chloride ammonia mixture.
                >
                > Silicones
                >
                > Silicones have a very low freezing point, and a very high boiling
                point.
                > They are noncorrosive and long-lasting. Because silicones have a
                high
                > viscosity and low heat capacities, they require more energy to pump.
                > Silicones also leak easily, even through microscopic holes in a
                solar
                > loop.
                >
                >
                > Source: US Department of Energy
                >
                >
                >
                > Slainte!
                > regards Harry
                >
              • John Loke
                Cor, Was heating achieved using propylene glycol? John ... Cor, Was heating achieved using propylene glycol? John 2008/5/1 Cor : -Thank
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 20, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Cor,
                   
                  Was heating achieved using propylene glycol?
                   
                  John

                   
                  2008/5/1 Cor <corrohner@...>:

                  -Thank you all,

                  The information you sent is very usefull for me.
                  I think that Im gonna use Propylene glycol.
                  It seems to me that its the one that will do the job, it gots the
                  right specifications and is less toxit than Ethylene Glycol.
                  Using oil is out off the question for me.
                  I have to do some telephone calls overhere (I want the pure stuff)but
                  i gonna try to get it.
                  Im stil busy with preparing my Still but when it is finished I
                  promise I send some pitures of it.

                  Best regards from Holland, Cor



                  -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, DDT <luckydraw@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Welcome Cor,
                  > >
                  > > I have not used a baine marie before but I have a friend in
                  Germany
                  > who
                  > > distills exclusively with this type of boiler on a pot still.
                  > >
                  > > He uses auto coolant and does not use a pressure vessel. His
                  still is
                  > > wood fired and he
                  > > keeps the coolant just below boiling. He is a farmer and mostly
                  > > distills fruit from his farm.
                  > >
                  > > There are 2 different types of coolant in the US.:
                  > >
                  > > Ethylene glycol which is poisonous and can also cause birth
                  defects
                  > > if you accidentally
                  > > drink it.
                  > >
                  > > Propylene glycol is a newer replacement which is much less toxic.
                  > >
                  > > ONLY USE propylene glycol!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Heat-transfer fluid
                  >
                  > A gas or liquid used to move heat energy from one place to another.
                  > Refrigerants are well-known examples of heat-transfer fluids.
                  >
                  >
                  > Heat-transfer fluids selection criteria
                  >
                  > When selecting a heat-transfer fluid, you should consider the
                  following
                  > criteria:
                  >
                  > Coefficient of expansion – the fractional change in length (or
                  > sometimes in volume, when specified) of a material for a unit
                  change in
                  > temperature
                  >
                  > Viscosity – resistance of a liquid to sheer forces (and hence to
                  > flow)
                  >
                  > Thermal capacity – the ability of matter to store heat
                  >
                  > Freezing point – the temperature below which a liquid turns into a
                  > solid
                  >
                  > Boiling point – the temperature at which a liquid boils
                  >
                  > Flash point – the lowest temperature at which the vapor above a
                  > liquid can be ignited in air.
                  >
                  > For example, in a cold climate, solar water heating systems require
                  > fluids with low freezing points. Fluids exposed to high
                  temperatures, as
                  > in a desert climate, should have a high boiling point. Viscosity and
                  > thermal capacity determine the amount of pumping energy required. A
                  > fluid with low viscosity and high specific heat is easier to pump,
                  > because it is less resistant to flow and transfers more heat. Other
                  > properties that help determine the effectiveness of a fluid are its
                  > corrosiveness and stability.
                  >
                  >
                  > Types of heat-transfer fluids
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The following are some of the most commonly used heat-transfer
                  fluids
                  > and their properties:
                  >
                  > Air
                  >
                  > Air will not freeze or boil, and is non-corrosive. However, it has a
                  > very low heat capacity, and tends to leak out of collectors, ducts,
                  and
                  > dampers.
                  >
                  > Water
                  >
                  > Water is nontoxic and inexpensive. With a high specific heat, and a
                  very
                  > low viscosity, it's easy to pump. Unfortunately, water has a
                  relatively
                  > low boiling point and a high freezing point. It can also be
                  corrosive if
                  > the pH (acidity/alkalinity level) is not maintained at a neutral
                  level.
                  > Water with a high mineral content (i.e., "hard" water) can cause
                  mineral
                  > deposits to form in collector tubing and system plumbing.
                  >
                  > Glycol/water mixtures
                  >
                  > Glycol/water mixtures have a 50/50 or 60/40 glycol-to-water ratio.
                  > Ethylene and propylene glycol are "antifreezes." Ethylene glycol is
                  > extremely toxic and should only be used in a double-walled, closed-
                  loop
                  > system. You can use food-grade propylene glycol/water mixtures in a
                  > single-walled heat exchanger, as long as the mixture has been
                  certified
                  > as nontoxic. Make sure that no toxic dyes or inhibitors have been
                  added
                  > to it. Most glycols deteriorate at very high temperatures. You must
                  > check the pH value, freezing point, and concentration of inhibitors
                  > annually to determine whether the mixture needs any adjustments or
                  > replacements to maintain its stability and effectiveness.
                  >
                  > Hydrocarbon oils
                  >
                  > Hydrocarbon oils have a higher viscosity and lower specific heat
                  than
                  > water. They require more energy to pump. These oils are relatively
                  > inexpensive and have a low freezing point. The basic categories of
                  > hydrocarbon oils are synthetic hydrocarbons, paraffin hydrocarbons,
                  and
                  > aromatic refined mineral oils. Synthetic hydrocarbons are relatively
                  > nontoxic and require little maintenance. Paraffin hydrocarbons have
                  a
                  > wider temperature range between freezing and boiling points than
                  water,
                  > but they are toxic and require a double-walled, closed-loop heat
                  > exchanger. Aromatic oils are the least viscous of the hydrocarbon
                  oils.
                  >
                  > Refrigerants/phase change fluids
                  >
                  > These are commonly used as the heat transfer fluid in
                  refrigerators, air
                  > conditioners, and heat pumps. They generally have a low boiling
                  point
                  > and a high heat capacity. This enables a small amount of the
                  refrigerant
                  > to transfer a large amount of heat very efficiently. Refrigerants
                  > respond quickly to solar heat, making them more effective on cloudy
                  days
                  > than other transfer fluids. Heat absorption occurs when the
                  refrigerant
                  > boils (changes phase from liquid to gas) in the solar collector.
                  Release
                  > of the collected heat takes place when the now-gaseous refrigerant
                  > condenses to a liquid again in a heat exchanger or condenser. For
                  years
                  > chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) refrigerants, such as Freon, were the
                  primary
                  > fluids used by refrigerator, air-conditioner, and heat pump
                  > manufacturers because they are nonflammable, low in toxicity,
                  stable,
                  > noncorrosive, and do not freeze. However, due the negative effect
                  that
                  > CFCs have on the earth's ozone layer, CFC production is being phased
                  > out, as is the production of hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFC). The
                  few
                  > companies that produced refrigerant-charged solar systems have
                  either
                  > stopped manufacturing the systems entirely, or are currently seeking
                  > alternative refrigerants. Some companies have investigated methyl
                  > alcohol as a replacement for refrigerants.If you currently own a
                  > refrigerant-charged solar system and it needs servicing, you should
                  > contact your local solar or refrigeration service professional.
                  Since
                  > Jul. 1, 1992, intentional venting of CFCs and HCFCs during service
                  and
                  > maintenance or disposal of the equipment containing these compounds
                  is
                  > illegal and punishable by stiff fines. Although production of CFCs
                  > ceased in the U.S. 1996, a licensed refrigeration technician can
                  still
                  > service your system. You may wish to contact your service
                  professional
                  > to discuss the possible replacement of the CFC refrigerant with
                  methyl
                  > alcohol or some other heat transfer fluid.
                  >
                  > Ammonia can also be used as a refrigerant. It's commonly used in
                  > industrial applications. Due to safety considerations it's not used
                  in
                  > residential systems. The refrigerants can be aqueous ammonia or a
                  > calcium chloride ammonia mixture.
                  >
                  > Silicones
                  >
                  > Silicones have a very low freezing point, and a very high boiling
                  point.
                  > They are noncorrosive and long-lasting. Because silicones have a
                  high
                  > viscosity and low heat capacities, they require more energy to pump.
                  > Silicones also leak easily, even through microscopic holes in a
                  solar
                  > loop.
                  >
                  >
                  > Source: US Department of Energy
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Slainte!
                  > regards Harry
                  >



                • Cor
                  John, The answer of your question is YES..it works out great. I ve made my first run last weekend (with a sugar wash) after I made a couple of test runs with
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 20, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    John,

                    The answer of your question is YES..it works out great.
                    I 've made my first run last weekend (with a sugar wash) after I made
                    a couple of test runs with only water.
                    What i've get was a very fine distillate of 94% alcohol without any
                    strange smell or nasty taste in it.(ussing a Reflux kolom)
                    Maybe because it was going slowly. (normaly I heat up with propane
                    gas)
                    I'm really glad with the advise I've got from Robert(Zymurgy Bob)for
                    using Propylene Glycol,
                    Harry,who gave me allot of information about the diversity of Anti
                    Freeze and DDT(Luckydrawkk)for his information about this item.
                    Getting pure Propylene Glycol in Holland is a big problem, if you can
                    get it you have to buy a couple of thousand litres.
                    But Googeling around I came on a site of Yachts (boats)and they
                    advertise with Anti-Freeze, specialy for drinking water systems.
                    Made of .....Propylene Glycol.
                    Spec's: Non Toxic. 96%Propylene glycol. 2%Water and 2% Corrosion
                    Inhibitors (which protect against rust and corrosion of
                    aluminium,copper,solder and brass. It will not harm rubber or other
                    hose and gasket materials).Maybe good for the electrolytic element
                    for the diverent materials that are used.
                    I use 5 gallons in the outer kettle, that's enough to cover 3/4 of te
                    copper inner kettle.
                    The temp is regulated by a Shimaden tempcontrol unit Type:SR30
                    And the temp probe is made of thermo resistantwire that is put in a
                    small copper pipe and soldered in the outer ketlle.
                    I also made a stirrer on the kettle, that will help to heat up the
                    mash quicker than that it is standing still.
                    I'l try to put some pic's in the Photo map(under cor-pictures) so it
                    wil be easyer to understand where i am talking about.

                    John, I hope you 've got something about this information
                    I wish you good luck by finding Prolylene glycol(if you gonna use it)

                    Best regards from Holland, Cor.





                    - In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Loke" <john.b.loke@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Cor,
                    >
                    > Was heating achieved using propylene glycol?
                    >
                    > John
                    >
                    >
                    > 2008/5/1 Cor <corrohner@...>:
                    >
                    > > -Thank you all,
                    > >
                    > > The information you sent is very usefull for me.
                    > > I think that Im gonna use Propylene glycol.
                    > > It seems to me that its the one that will do the job, it gots the
                    > > right specifications and is less toxit than Ethylene Glycol.
                    > > Using oil is out off the question for me.
                    > > I have to do some telephone calls overhere (I want the pure stuff)
                    but
                    > > i gonna try to get it.
                    > > Im stil busy with preparing my Still but when it is finished I
                    > > promise I send some pitures of it.
                    > >
                    > > Best regards from Holland, Cor
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers%
                    40yahoogroups.com>, "Harry"
                    > > <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers%
                    40yahoogroups.com>, DDT
                    > > <luckydraw@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Welcome Cor,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have not used a baine marie before but I have a friend in
                    > > Germany
                    > > > who
                    > > > > distills exclusively with this type of boiler on a pot still.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > He uses auto coolant and does not use a pressure vessel. His
                    > > still is
                    > > > > wood fired and he
                    > > > > keeps the coolant just below boiling. He is a farmer and
                    mostly
                    > > > > distills fruit from his farm.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > There are 2 different types of coolant in the US.:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ethylene glycol which is poisonous and can also cause birth
                    > > defects
                    > > > > if you accidentally
                    > > > > drink it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Propylene glycol is a newer replacement which is much less
                    toxic.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ONLY USE propylene glycol!
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Heat-transfer fluid
                    > > >
                    > > > A gas or liquid used to move heat energy from one place to
                    another.
                    > > > Refrigerants are well-known examples of heat-transfer fluids.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Heat-transfer fluids selection criteria
                    > > >
                    > > > When selecting a heat-transfer fluid, you should consider the
                    > > following
                    > > > criteria:
                    > > >
                    > > > Coefficient of expansion â€" the fractional change in length (or
                    > > > sometimes in volume, when specified) of a material for a unit
                    > > change in
                    > > > temperature
                    > > >
                    > > > Viscosity â€" resistance of a liquid to sheer forces (and hence
                    to
                    > > > flow)
                    > > >
                    > > > Thermal capacity â€" the ability of matter to store heat
                    > > >
                    > > > Freezing point â€" the temperature below which a liquid turns
                    into a
                    > > > solid
                    > > >
                    > > > Boiling point â€" the temperature at which a liquid boils
                    > > >
                    > > > Flash point â€" the lowest temperature at which the vapor above
                    a
                    > > > liquid can be ignited in air.
                    > > >
                    > > > For example, in a cold climate, solar water heating systems
                    require
                    > > > fluids with low freezing points. Fluids exposed to high
                    > > temperatures, as
                    > > > in a desert climate, should have a high boiling point.
                    Viscosity and
                    > > > thermal capacity determine the amount of pumping energy
                    required. A
                    > > > fluid with low viscosity and high specific heat is easier to
                    pump,
                    > > > because it is less resistant to flow and transfers more heat.
                    Other
                    > > > properties that help determine the effectiveness of a fluid are
                    its
                    > > > corrosiveness and stability.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Types of heat-transfer fluids
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > The following are some of the most commonly used heat-transfer
                    > > fluids
                    > > > and their properties:
                    > > >
                    > > > Air
                    > > >
                    > > > Air will not freeze or boil, and is non-corrosive. However, it
                    has a
                    > > > very low heat capacity, and tends to leak out of collectors,
                    ducts,
                    > > and
                    > > > dampers.
                    > > >
                    > > > Water
                    > > >
                    > > > Water is nontoxic and inexpensive. With a high specific heat,
                    and a
                    > > very
                    > > > low viscosity, it's easy to pump. Unfortunately, water has a
                    > > relatively
                    > > > low boiling point and a high freezing point. It can also be
                    > > corrosive if
                    > > > the pH (acidity/alkalinity level) is not maintained at a neutral
                    > > level.
                    > > > Water with a high mineral content (i.e., "hard" water) can cause
                    > > mineral
                    > > > deposits to form in collector tubing and system plumbing.
                    > > >
                    > > > Glycol/water mixtures
                    > > >
                    > > > Glycol/water mixtures have a 50/50 or 60/40 glycol-to-water
                    ratio.
                    > > > Ethylene and propylene glycol are "antifreezes." Ethylene
                    glycol is
                    > > > extremely toxic and should only be used in a double-walled,
                    closed-
                    > > loop
                    > > > system. You can use food-grade propylene glycol/water mixtures
                    in a
                    > > > single-walled heat exchanger, as long as the mixture has been
                    > > certified
                    > > > as nontoxic. Make sure that no toxic dyes or inhibitors have
                    been
                    > > added
                    > > > to it. Most glycols deteriorate at very high temperatures. You
                    must
                    > > > check the pH value, freezing point, and concentration of
                    inhibitors
                    > > > annually to determine whether the mixture needs any adjustments
                    or
                    > > > replacements to maintain its stability and effectiveness.
                    > > >
                    > > > Hydrocarbon oils
                    > > >
                    > > > Hydrocarbon oils have a higher viscosity and lower specific heat
                    > > than
                    > > > water. They require more energy to pump. These oils are
                    relatively
                    > > > inexpensive and have a low freezing point. The basic categories
                    of
                    > > > hydrocarbon oils are synthetic hydrocarbons, paraffin
                    hydrocarbons,
                    > > and
                    > > > aromatic refined mineral oils. Synthetic hydrocarbons are
                    relatively
                    > > > nontoxic and require little maintenance. Paraffin hydrocarbons
                    have
                    > > a
                    > > > wider temperature range between freezing and boiling points than
                    > > water,
                    > > > but they are toxic and require a double-walled, closed-loop heat
                    > > > exchanger. Aromatic oils are the least viscous of the
                    hydrocarbon
                    > > oils.
                    > > >
                    > > > Refrigerants/phase change fluids
                    > > >
                    > > > These are commonly used as the heat transfer fluid in
                    > > refrigerators, air
                    > > > conditioners, and heat pumps. They generally have a low boiling
                    > > point
                    > > > and a high heat capacity. This enables a small amount of the
                    > > refrigerant
                    > > > to transfer a large amount of heat very efficiently.
                    Refrigerants
                    > > > respond quickly to solar heat, making them more effective on
                    cloudy
                    > > days
                    > > > than other transfer fluids. Heat absorption occurs when the
                    > > refrigerant
                    > > > boils (changes phase from liquid to gas) in the solar collector.
                    > > Release
                    > > > of the collected heat takes place when the now-gaseous
                    refrigerant
                    > > > condenses to a liquid again in a heat exchanger or condenser.
                    For
                    > > years
                    > > > chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) refrigerants, such as Freon, were the
                    > > primary
                    > > > fluids used by refrigerator, air-conditioner, and heat pump
                    > > > manufacturers because they are nonflammable, low in toxicity,
                    > > stable,
                    > > > noncorrosive, and do not freeze. However, due the negative
                    effect
                    > > that
                    > > > CFCs have on the earth's ozone layer, CFC production is being
                    phased
                    > > > out, as is the production of hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFC).
                    The
                    > > few
                    > > > companies that produced refrigerant-charged solar systems have
                    > > either
                    > > > stopped manufacturing the systems entirely, or are currently
                    seeking
                    > > > alternative refrigerants. Some companies have investigated
                    methyl
                    > > > alcohol as a replacement for refrigerants.If you currently own a
                    > > > refrigerant-charged solar system and it needs servicing, you
                    should
                    > > > contact your local solar or refrigeration service professional.
                    > > Since
                    > > > Jul. 1, 1992, intentional venting of CFCs and HCFCs during
                    service
                    > > and
                    > > > maintenance or disposal of the equipment containing these
                    compounds
                    > > is
                    > > > illegal and punishable by stiff fines. Although production of
                    CFCs
                    > > > ceased in the U.S. 1996, a licensed refrigeration technician can
                    > > still
                    > > > service your system. You may wish to contact your service
                    > > professional
                    > > > to discuss the possible replacement of the CFC refrigerant with
                    > > methyl
                    > > > alcohol or some other heat transfer fluid.
                    > > >
                    > > > Ammonia can also be used as a refrigerant. It's commonly used in
                    > > > industrial applications. Due to safety considerations it's not
                    used
                    > > in
                    > > > residential systems. The refrigerants can be aqueous ammonia or
                    a
                    > > > calcium chloride ammonia mixture.
                    > > >
                    > > > Silicones
                    > > >
                    > > > Silicones have a very low freezing point, and a very high
                    boiling
                    > > point.
                    > > > They are noncorrosive and long-lasting. Because silicones have a
                    > > high
                    > > > viscosity and low heat capacities, they require more energy to
                    pump.
                    > > > Silicones also leak easily, even through microscopic holes in a
                    > > solar
                    > > > loop.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Source: US Department of Energy
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Slainte!
                    > > > regards Harry
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • John Loke
                    Hoi Cor, Thanks for the information. The propylene glycol doesn t evaporate quickly? Groet! John ... Hoi Cor, Thanks for the information. The propylene glycol
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 20, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hoi Cor,
                       
                      Thanks for the information. The propylene glycol doesn't evaporate quickly?
                       
                      Groet!
                       
                      John
                       
                       
                       
                      2008/7/20 Cor <corrohner@...>:

                      John,

                      The answer of your question is YES..it works out great.
                      I 've made my first run last weekend (with a sugar wash) after I made
                      a couple of test runs with only water.
                      What i've get was a very fine distillate of 94% alcohol without any
                      strange smell or nasty taste in it.(ussing a Reflux kolom)
                      Maybe because it was going slowly. (normaly I heat up with propane
                      gas)
                      I'm really glad with the advise I've got from Robert(Zymurgy Bob)for
                      using Propylene Glycol,
                      Harry,who gave me allot of information about the diversity of Anti
                      Freeze and DDT(Luckydrawkk)for his information about this item.
                      Getting pure Propylene Glycol in Holland is a big problem, if you can
                      get it you have to buy a couple of thousand litres.
                      But Googeling around I came on a site of Yachts (boats)and they
                      advertise with Anti-Freeze, specialy for drinking water systems.
                      Made of .....Propylene Glycol.
                      Spec's: Non Toxic. 96%Propylene glycol. 2%Water and 2% Corrosion
                      Inhibitors (which protect against rust and corrosion of
                      aluminium,copper,solder and brass. It will not harm rubber or other
                      hose and gasket materials).Maybe good for the electrolytic element
                      for the diverent materials that are used.
                      I use 5 gallons in the outer kettle, that's enough to cover 3/4 of te
                      copper inner kettle.
                      The temp is regulated by a Shimaden tempcontrol unit Type:SR30
                      And the temp probe is made of thermo resistantwire that is put in a
                      small copper pipe and soldered in the outer ketlle.
                      I also made a stirrer on the kettle, that will help to heat up the
                      mash quicker than that it is standing still.
                      I'l try to put some pic's in the Photo map(under cor-pictures) so it
                      wil be easyer to understand where i am talking about.

                      John, I hope you 've got something about this information
                      I wish you good luck by finding Prolylene glycol(if you gonna use it)



                      Best regards from Holland, Cor.

                      - In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Loke" <john.b.loke@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Cor,
                      >
                      > Was heating achieved using propylene glycol?
                      >
                      > John
                      >
                      >
                      > 2008/5/1 Cor <corrohner@...>:

                      >
                      > > -Thank you all,
                      > >
                      > > The information you sent is very usefull for me.
                      > > I think that Im gonna use Propylene glycol.
                      > > It seems to me that its the one that will do the job, it gots the
                      > > right specifications and is less toxit than Ethylene Glycol.
                      > > Using oil is out off the question for me.
                      > > I have to do some telephone calls overhere (I want the pure stuff)
                      but
                      > > i gonna try to get it.
                      > > Im stil busy with preparing my Still but when it is finished I
                      > > promise I send some pitures of it.
                      > >
                      > > Best regards from Holland, Cor
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers%
                      40yahoogroups.com>, "Harry"
                      > > <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers%
                      40yahoogroups.com>, DDT

                      > > <luckydraw@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Welcome Cor,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have not used a baine marie before but I have a friend in
                      > > Germany
                      > > > who
                      > > > > distills exclusively with this type of boiler on a pot still.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > He uses auto coolant and does not use a pressure vessel. His
                      > > still is
                      > > > > wood fired and he
                      > > > > keeps the coolant just below boiling. He is a farmer and
                      mostly
                      > > > > distills fruit from his farm.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There are 2 different types of coolant in the US.:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Ethylene glycol which is poisonous and can also cause birth
                      > > defects
                      > > > > if you accidentally
                      > > > > drink it.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Propylene glycol is a newer replacement which is much less
                      toxic.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ONLY USE propylene glycol!
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Heat-transfer fluid
                      > > >
                      > > > A gas or liquid used to move heat energy from one place to
                      another.
                      > > > Refrigerants are well-known examples of heat-transfer fluids.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Heat-transfer fluids selection criteria
                      > > >
                      > > > When selecting a heat-transfer fluid, you should consider the
                      > > following
                      > > > criteria:
                      > > >
                      > > > Coefficient of expansion â€" the fractional change in length (or

                      > > > sometimes in volume, when specified) of a material for a unit
                      > > change in
                      > > > temperature
                      > > >
                      > > > Viscosity â€" resistance of a liquid to sheer forces (and hence
                      to
                      > > > flow)
                      > > >
                      > > > Thermal capacity â€" the ability of matter to store heat
                      > > >
                      > > > Freezing point â€" the temperature below which a liquid turns
                      into a
                      > > > solid
                      > > >
                      > > > Boiling point â€" the temperature at which a liquid boils
                      > > >
                      > > > Flash point â€" the lowest temperature at which the vapor above
                      a
                      > > > liquid can be ignited in air.
                      > > >
                      > > > For example, in a cold climate, solar water heating systems
                      require
                      > > > fluids with low freezing points. Fluids exposed to high
                      > > temperatures, as
                      > > > in a desert climate, should have a high boiling point.
                      Viscosity and
                      > > > thermal capacity determine the amount of pumping energy
                      required. A
                      > > > fluid with low viscosity and high specific heat is easier to
                      pump,
                      > > > because it is less resistant to flow and transfers more heat.
                      Other
                      > > > properties that help determine the effectiveness of a fluid are
                      its
                      > > > corrosiveness and stability.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Types of heat-transfer fluids
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > The following are some of the most commonly used heat-transfer
                      > > fluids
                      > > > and their properties:
                      > > >
                      > > > Air
                      > > >
                      > > > Air will not freeze or boil, and is non-corrosive. However, it
                      has a
                      > > > very low heat capacity, and tends to leak out of collectors,
                      ducts,
                      > > and
                      > > > dampers.
                      > > >
                      > > > Water
                      > > >
                      > > > Water is nontoxic and inexpensive. With a high specific heat,
                      and a
                      > > very
                      > > > low viscosity, it's easy to pump. Unfortunately, water has a
                      > > relatively
                      > > > low boiling point and a high freezing point. It can also be
                      > > corrosive if
                      > > > the pH (acidity/alkalinity level) is not maintained at a neutral
                      > > level.
                      > > > Water with a high mineral content (i.e., "hard" water) can cause
                      > > mineral
                      > > > deposits to form in collector tubing and system plumbing.
                      > > >
                      > > > Glycol/water mixtures
                      > > >
                      > > > Glycol/water mixtures have a 50/50 or 60/40 glycol-to-water
                      ratio.
                      > > > Ethylene and propylene glycol are "antifreezes." Ethylene
                      glycol is
                      > > > extremely toxic and should only be used in a double-walled,
                      closed-
                      > > loop
                      > > > system. You can use food-grade propylene glycol/water mixtures
                      in a
                      > > > single-walled heat exchanger, as long as the mixture has been
                      > > certified
                      > > > as nontoxic. Make sure that no toxic dyes or inhibitors have
                      been
                      > > added
                      > > > to it. Most glycols deteriorate at very high temperatures. You
                      must
                      > > > check the pH value, freezing point, and concentration of
                      inhibitors
                      > > > annually to determine whether the mixture needs any adjustments
                      or
                      > > > replacements to maintain its stability and effectiveness.
                      > > >
                      > > > Hydrocarbon oils
                      > > >
                      > > > Hydrocarbon oils have a higher viscosity and lower specific heat
                      > > than
                      > > > water. They require more energy to pump. These oils are
                      relatively
                      > > > inexpensive and have a low freezing point. The basic categories
                      of
                      > > > hydrocarbon oils are synthetic hydrocarbons, paraffin
                      hydrocarbons,
                      > > and
                      > > > aromatic refined mineral oils. Synthetic hydrocarbons are
                      relatively
                      > > > nontoxic and require little maintenance. Paraffin hydrocarbons
                      have
                      > > a
                      > > > wider temperature range between freezing and boiling points than
                      > > water,
                      > > > but they are toxic and require a double-walled, closed-loop heat
                      > > > exchanger. Aromatic oils are the least viscous of the
                      hydrocarbon
                      > > oils.
                      > > >
                      > > > Refrigerants/phase change fluids
                      > > >
                      > > > These are commonly used as the heat transfer fluid in
                      > > refrigerators, air
                      > > > conditioners, and heat pumps. They generally have a low boiling
                      > > point
                      > > > and a high heat capacity. This enables a small amount of the
                      > > refrigerant
                      > > > to transfer a large amount of heat very efficiently.
                      Refrigerants
                      > > > respond quickly to solar heat, making them more effective on
                      cloudy
                      > > days
                      > > > than other transfer fluids. Heat absorption occurs when the
                      > > refrigerant
                      > > > boils (changes phase from liquid to gas) in the solar collector.
                      > > Release
                      > > > of the collected heat takes place when the now-gaseous
                      refrigerant
                      > > > condenses to a liquid again in a heat exchanger or condenser.
                      For
                      > > years
                      > > > chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) refrigerants, such as Freon, were the
                      > > primary
                      > > > fluids used by refrigerator, air-conditioner, and heat pump
                      > > > manufacturers because they are nonflammable, low in toxicity,
                      > > stable,
                      > > > noncorrosive, and do not freeze. However, due the negative
                      effect
                      > > that
                      > > > CFCs have on the earth's ozone layer, CFC production is being
                      phased
                      > > > out, as is the production of hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFC).
                      The
                      > > few
                      > > > companies that produced refrigerant-charged solar systems have
                      > > either
                      > > > stopped manufacturing the systems entirely, or are currently
                      seeking
                      > > > alternative refrigerants. Some companies have investigated
                      methyl
                      > > > alcohol as a replacement for refrigerants.If you currently own a
                      > > > refrigerant-charged solar system and it needs servicing, you
                      should
                      > > > contact your local solar or refrigeration service professional.
                      > > Since
                      > > > Jul. 1, 1992, intentional venting of CFCs and HCFCs during
                      service
                      > > and
                      > > > maintenance or disposal of the equipment containing these
                      compounds
                      > > is
                      > > > illegal and punishable by stiff fines. Although production of
                      CFCs
                      > > > ceased in the U.S. 1996, a licensed refrigeration technician can
                      > > still
                      > > > service your system. You may wish to contact your service
                      > > professional
                      > > > to discuss the possible replacement of the CFC refrigerant with
                      > > methyl
                      > > > alcohol or some other heat transfer fluid.
                      > > >
                      > > > Ammonia can also be used as a refrigerant. It's commonly used in
                      > > > industrial applications. Due to safety considerations it's not
                      used
                      > > in
                      > > > residential systems. The refrigerants can be aqueous ammonia or
                      a
                      > > > calcium chloride ammonia mixture.
                      > > >
                      > > > Silicones
                      > > >
                      > > > Silicones have a very low freezing point, and a very high
                      boiling
                      > > point.
                      > > > They are noncorrosive and long-lasting. Because silicones have a
                      > > high
                      > > > viscosity and low heat capacities, they require more energy to
                      pump.
                      > > > Silicones also leak easily, even through microscopic holes in a
                      > > solar
                      > > > loop.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Source: US Department of Energy
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Slainte!
                      > > > regards Harry
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >


                    • Cor
                      -- John, To be honest to you, I don t now I din t pay attention to it so far. The space where I putt in the Propylene glycol is almost airtight, only open by a
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 22, 2008
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                        --
                        John,

                        To be honest to you, I don't now I din't pay attention to it so far.
                        The space where I putt in the Propylene glycol is almost airtight,
                        only open by a litlle hole of 2mm.
                        This is for the liquid to expanding.
                        In future I want to place a security valve in it.
                        So I have to do more runs to see what happends.
                        I give the information to you as soon as possible.

                        Groet, Hans


                        - In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Loke" <john.b.loke@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hoi Cor,
                        >
                        > Thanks for the information. The propylene glycol doesn't evaporate
                        quickly?
                        >
                        > Groet!
                        >
                        > John
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 2008/7/20 Cor <corrohner@...>:
                        >
                        > > John,
                        > >
                        > > The answer of your question is YES..it works out great.
                        > > I 've made my first run last weekend (with a sugar wash) after I
                        made
                        > > a couple of test runs with only water.
                        > > What i've get was a very fine distillate of 94% alcohol without
                        any
                        > > strange smell or nasty taste in it.(ussing a Reflux kolom)
                        > > Maybe because it was going slowly. (normaly I heat up with propane
                        > > gas)
                        > > I'm really glad with the advise I've got from Robert(Zymurgy Bob)
                        for
                        > > using Propylene Glycol,
                        > > Harry,who gave me allot of information about the diversity of Anti
                        > > Freeze and DDT(Luckydrawkk)for his information about this item.
                        > > Getting pure Propylene Glycol in Holland is a big problem, if you
                        can
                        > > get it you have to buy a couple of thousand litres.
                        > > But Googeling around I came on a site of Yachts (boats)and they
                        > > advertise with Anti-Freeze, specialy for drinking water systems.
                        > > Made of .....Propylene Glycol.
                        > > Spec's: Non Toxic. 96%Propylene glycol. 2%Water and 2% Corrosion
                        > > Inhibitors (which protect against rust and corrosion of
                        > > aluminium,copper,solder and brass. It will not harm rubber or
                        other
                        > > hose and gasket materials).Maybe good for the electrolytic element
                        > > for the diverent materials that are used.
                        > > I use 5 gallons in the outer kettle, that's enough to cover 3/4
                        of te
                        > > copper inner kettle.
                        > > The temp is regulated by a Shimaden tempcontrol unit Type:SR30
                        > > And the temp probe is made of thermo resistantwire that is put in
                        a
                        > > small copper pipe and soldered in the outer ketlle.
                        > > I also made a stirrer on the kettle, that will help to heat up the
                        > > mash quicker than that it is standing still.
                        > > I'l try to put some pic's in the Photo map(under cor-pictures) so
                        it
                        > > wil be easyer to understand where i am talking about.
                        > >
                        > > John, I hope you 've got something about this information
                        > > I wish you good luck by finding Prolylene glycol(if you gonna use
                        it)
                        > >
                        > > Best regards from Holland, Cor.
                        > >
                        > > - In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers%
                        40yahoogroups.com>, "John
                        > > Loke" <john.b.loke@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Cor,
                        > > >
                        > > > Was heating achieved using propylene glycol?
                        > > >
                        > > > John
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > 2008/5/1 Cor <corrohner@>:
                        > > >
                        > > > > -Thank you all,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The information you sent is very usefull for me.
                        > > > > I think that Im gonna use Propylene glycol.
                        > > > > It seems to me that its the one that will do the job, it gots
                        the
                        > > > > right specifications and is less toxit than Ethylene Glycol.
                        > > > > Using oil is out off the question for me.
                        > > > > I have to do some telephone calls overhere (I want the pure
                        stuff)
                        > > but
                        > > > > i gonna try to get it.
                        > > > > Im stil busy with preparing my Still but when it is finished I
                        > > > > promise I send some pitures of it.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Best regards from Holland, Cor
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers%
                        40yahoogroups.com><Distillers%
                        > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Harry"
                        > > > > <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers%
                        40yahoogroups.com><Distillers%
                        > > 40yahoogroups.com>, DDT
                        > >
                        > > > > <luckydraw@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Welcome Cor,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I have not used a baine marie before but I have a friend
                        in
                        > > > > Germany
                        > > > > > who
                        > > > > > > distills exclusively with this type of boiler on a pot
                        still.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > He uses auto coolant and does not use a pressure vessel.
                        His
                        > > > > still is
                        > > > > > > wood fired and he
                        > > > > > > keeps the coolant just below boiling. He is a farmer and
                        > > mostly
                        > > > > > > distills fruit from his farm.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > There are 2 different types of coolant in the US.:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Ethylene glycol which is poisonous and can also cause
                        birth
                        > > > > defects
                        > > > > > > if you accidentally
                        > > > > > > drink it.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Propylene glycol is a newer replacement which is much less
                        > > toxic.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > ONLY USE propylene glycol!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Heat-transfer fluid
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > A gas or liquid used to move heat energy from one place to
                        > > another.
                        > > > > > Refrigerants are well-known examples of heat-transfer
                        fluids.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Heat-transfer fluids selection criteria
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > When selecting a heat-transfer fluid, you should consider
                        the
                        > > > > following
                        > > > > > criteria:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Coefficient of expansion â€" the fractional change in
                        length (or
                        > > > > > sometimes in volume, when specified) of a material for a
                        unit
                        > > > > change in
                        > > > > > temperature
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Viscosity â€" resistance of a liquid to sheer forces
                        (and hence
                        > > to
                        > > > > > flow)
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thermal capacity â€" the ability of matter to store heat
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Freezing point â€" the temperature below which a liquid
                        turns
                        > > into a
                        > > > > > solid
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Boiling point â€" the temperature at which a liquid boils
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Flash point â€" the lowest temperature at which the
                        vapor above
                        > > a
                        > > > > > liquid can be ignited in air.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > For example, in a cold climate, solar water heating systems
                        > > require
                        > > > > > fluids with low freezing points. Fluids exposed to high
                        > > > > temperatures, as
                        > > > > > in a desert climate, should have a high boiling point.
                        > > Viscosity and
                        > > > > > thermal capacity determine the amount of pumping energy
                        > > required. A
                        > > > > > fluid with low viscosity and high specific heat is easier to
                        > > pump,
                        > > > > > because it is less resistant to flow and transfers more
                        heat.
                        > > Other
                        > > > > > properties that help determine the effectiveness of a fluid
                        are
                        > > its
                        > > > > > corrosiveness and stability.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Types of heat-transfer fluids
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The following are some of the most commonly used heat-
                        transfer
                        > > > > fluids
                        > > > > > and their properties:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Air
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Air will not freeze or boil, and is non-corrosive. However,
                        it
                        > > has a
                        > > > > > very low heat capacity, and tends to leak out of collectors,
                        > > ducts,
                        > > > > and
                        > > > > > dampers.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Water
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Water is nontoxic and inexpensive. With a high specific
                        heat,
                        > > and a
                        > > > > very
                        > > > > > low viscosity, it's easy to pump. Unfortunately, water has a
                        > > > > relatively
                        > > > > > low boiling point and a high freezing point. It can also be
                        > > > > corrosive if
                        > > > > > the pH (acidity/alkalinity level) is not maintained at a
                        neutral
                        > > > > level.
                        > > > > > Water with a high mineral content (i.e., "hard" water) can
                        cause
                        > > > > mineral
                        > > > > > deposits to form in collector tubing and system plumbing.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Glycol/water mixtures
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Glycol/water mixtures have a 50/50 or 60/40 glycol-to-water
                        > > ratio.
                        > > > > > Ethylene and propylene glycol are "antifreezes." Ethylene
                        > > glycol is
                        > > > > > extremely toxic and should only be used in a double-walled,
                        > > closed-
                        > > > > loop
                        > > > > > system. You can use food-grade propylene glycol/water
                        mixtures
                        > > in a
                        > > > > > single-walled heat exchanger, as long as the mixture has
                        been
                        > > > > certified
                        > > > > > as nontoxic. Make sure that no toxic dyes or inhibitors have
                        > > been
                        > > > > added
                        > > > > > to it. Most glycols deteriorate at very high temperatures.
                        You
                        > > must
                        > > > > > check the pH value, freezing point, and concentration of
                        > > inhibitors
                        > > > > > annually to determine whether the mixture needs any
                        adjustments
                        > > or
                        > > > > > replacements to maintain its stability and effectiveness.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hydrocarbon oils
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hydrocarbon oils have a higher viscosity and lower specific
                        heat
                        > > > > than
                        > > > > > water. They require more energy to pump. These oils are
                        > > relatively
                        > > > > > inexpensive and have a low freezing point. The basic
                        categories
                        > > of
                        > > > > > hydrocarbon oils are synthetic hydrocarbons, paraffin
                        > > hydrocarbons,
                        > > > > and
                        > > > > > aromatic refined mineral oils. Synthetic hydrocarbons are
                        > > relatively
                        > > > > > nontoxic and require little maintenance. Paraffin
                        hydrocarbons
                        > > have
                        > > > > a
                        > > > > > wider temperature range between freezing and boiling points
                        than
                        > > > > water,
                        > > > > > but they are toxic and require a double-walled, closed-loop
                        heat
                        > > > > > exchanger. Aromatic oils are the least viscous of the
                        > > hydrocarbon
                        > > > > oils.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Refrigerants/phase change fluids
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > These are commonly used as the heat transfer fluid in
                        > > > > refrigerators, air
                        > > > > > conditioners, and heat pumps. They generally have a low
                        boiling
                        > > > > point
                        > > > > > and a high heat capacity. This enables a small amount of the
                        > > > > refrigerant
                        > > > > > to transfer a large amount of heat very efficiently.
                        > > Refrigerants
                        > > > > > respond quickly to solar heat, making them more effective on
                        > > cloudy
                        > > > > days
                        > > > > > than other transfer fluids. Heat absorption occurs when the
                        > > > > refrigerant
                        > > > > > boils (changes phase from liquid to gas) in the solar
                        collector.
                        > > > > Release
                        > > > > > of the collected heat takes place when the now-gaseous
                        > > refrigerant
                        > > > > > condenses to a liquid again in a heat exchanger or
                        condenser.
                        > > For
                        > > > > years
                        > > > > > chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) refrigerants, such as Freon, were
                        the
                        > > > > primary
                        > > > > > fluids used by refrigerator, air-conditioner, and heat pump
                        > > > > > manufacturers because they are nonflammable, low in
                        toxicity,
                        > > > > stable,
                        > > > > > noncorrosive, and do not freeze. However, due the negative
                        > > effect
                        > > > > that
                        > > > > > CFCs have on the earth's ozone layer, CFC production is
                        being
                        > > phased
                        > > > > > out, as is the production of hydrochlorofluorocarbons
                        (HCFC).
                        > > The
                        > > > > few
                        > > > > > companies that produced refrigerant-charged solar systems
                        have
                        > > > > either
                        > > > > > stopped manufacturing the systems entirely, or are currently
                        > > seeking
                        > > > > > alternative refrigerants. Some companies have investigated
                        > > methyl
                        > > > > > alcohol as a replacement for refrigerants.If you currently
                        own a
                        > > > > > refrigerant-charged solar system and it needs servicing, you
                        > > should
                        > > > > > contact your local solar or refrigeration service
                        professional.
                        > > > > Since
                        > > > > > Jul. 1, 1992, intentional venting of CFCs and HCFCs during
                        > > service
                        > > > > and
                        > > > > > maintenance or disposal of the equipment containing these
                        > > compounds
                        > > > > is
                        > > > > > illegal and punishable by stiff fines. Although production
                        of
                        > > CFCs
                        > > > > > ceased in the U.S. 1996, a licensed refrigeration
                        technician can
                        > > > > still
                        > > > > > service your system. You may wish to contact your service
                        > > > > professional
                        > > > > > to discuss the possible replacement of the CFC refrigerant
                        with
                        > > > > methyl
                        > > > > > alcohol or some other heat transfer fluid.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Ammonia can also be used as a refrigerant. It's commonly
                        used in
                        > > > > > industrial applications. Due to safety considerations it's
                        not
                        > > used
                        > > > > in
                        > > > > > residential systems. The refrigerants can be aqueous
                        ammonia or
                        > > a
                        > > > > > calcium chloride ammonia mixture.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Silicones
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Silicones have a very low freezing point, and a very high
                        > > boiling
                        > > > > point.
                        > > > > > They are noncorrosive and long-lasting. Because silicones
                        have a
                        > > > > high
                        > > > > > viscosity and low heat capacities, they require more energy
                        to
                        > > pump.
                        > > > > > Silicones also leak easily, even through microscopic holes
                        in a
                        > > > > solar
                        > > > > > loop.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Source: US Department of Energy
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Slainte!
                        > > > > > regards Harry
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Sven Pfitt
                        With a boiling point of 188.2C and a vapor density of 2.6, you won t see much evaporation when used as a heating media in a jacketed boiler. It is readily
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 25, 2008
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                          With a boiling point of 188.2C and a vapor density of 2.6, you won't
                          see much evaporation when used as a heating media in a jacketed
                          boiler.

                          It is readily available in RV supply stores (Recreational Vehicle,
                          campers etc) and larger boat supply stores. Sold as Potable Water
                          Line antifreeze for winter storage of such.

                          MSDS is on line and easily found for most information on it.

                          "What shall we do with a drunken sailor?
                          ...
                          Hang him from the half mast till he's sober."

                          Sven
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Cor" <corrohner@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --
                          > John,
                          >
                          > To be honest to you, I don't now I din't pay attention to it so far.
                          > The space where I putt in the Propylene glycol is almost airtight,
                          > only open by a litlle hole of 2mm.
                          > This is for the liquid to expanding.
                          > In future I want to place a security valve in it.
                          > So I have to do more runs to see what happends.
                          > I give the information to you as soon as possible.
                          >
                          > Groet, Hans
                          >
                          >
                          > - In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Loke" <john.b.loke@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hoi Cor,
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for the information. The propylene glycol doesn't
                          evaporate
                          > quickly?
                          > >
                          > > Groet!
                          > >
                          > > John
                          > >
                          .....snip.....
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