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Reusing yeast

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  • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
    Hmmm... I knew I was going to get a blast from the old fella re putting sugar in with the grapes ... call me a sucker for punishment for owning up to it ....
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 22, 2000
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      Hmmm... I knew I was going to get a blast from the old fella re putting
      sugar in with the grapes ... call me a sucker for punishment for owning up
      to it ....

      Anyhow, on to the topic at hand : Yeast. The packs of Turbo yeast that i
      use cost me about NZ$6-8 a batch. And they do a fantastic job, coming out
      between 13-18% alcohol. Rather than tossing the yeast sludge after every
      batch, is it possible to save the yeast for the next brew ? Is it simply a
      matter of bottling the yeast sediment into a sterlized bottle, then mixing
      it with a little warm water just prior to using it again ? What about
      nutrients (need more again ?) How long would it survive (I only brew up
      every couple of months) ? Does the yeast die at high %alcohol, or just go
      inactive ?

      Tony
      http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller
    • Ted Sims
      I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast from the last batch. My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution starting at 1.080) finished with nearly
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 27, 2001
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        I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast from
        the last batch.

        My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution
        starting at 1.080) finished with nearly 2L of yeast
        slurry in the bottom of container.

        Today I started two new fermentations as follows.

        I used 2 20L plastic beer fermenters. I poured malt
        extract syrup (about 5 kg in each) in the bottom. Then
        added about the same volume of boiled water from a
        kettle, and stirred until the extract was dissolved.
        Then I added sufficient cold and boiling water to make
        about 20 L in each container, at about 27 deg. C.

        I took the slurry from the last batch, which seemed
        very thick and would not pour, and diluted it to 4 L
        using warm water. Then I divided this evenly between
        the two fermenters.

        I had a vigorous fermentation going in about an hour.

        I have never tried doing it this way before.I'll tell
        you how it goes.

        Theo

        __________________________________________________
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      • Gary Gluyas
        Hello All It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use yeast! The potential for bacteria creeping into the yeast, stray wild yeast, and problems with
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 29, 2001
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          Hello All

          It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use yeast!

          The potential for bacteria creeping into the yeast, stray wild yeast, and
          problems with yeast not performing to the required standard the second time
          around, you are simply opening yourself up to insurmountable hassles.

          We have had a number of hobby distillers who have problems with bacteria
          etc with first-time yeast, and no one can guarantee the yeast will be
          bacteria free the second time around. Some have had to discard their
          fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular virus, and it is not cheap
          at $30 a time.

          All these potential problems to try and save a few $$ here and there! It
          is simply another variable in the process - I thought that one primary
          reasons of this forum was to try and reduce the variables - not increase
          them.

          For the record, a yeast pack in New Zealand retails here - from $NZ 2.00
          for a plain spirit high-alcohol producing yeast, to $NZ 7.95 for a turbo
          yeast including all the nutrients as well. If you are successful - AND
          THAT IS A VERY BIG "IF" - and use the yeast twice - what are you going to
          save $1 - $4. Surely the yield will be reduced, so . . . what are the real
          actual savings then? Is it really worth it?

          I just cannot believe that there is thinking out there along these lines -
          it just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Even though we are retailers,
          and having been involved in this hobby supply business for several years
          now and as an active distiller, I would not consider re-using yeast ever -
          nor would I ever suggest that people try it - even if the stuff was twice
          the price!

          Kiwi Gary
          Mill-Ford Lodge Homebrew Shop
          gluyas@...
          www.pbsltd.co.nz

          P.S. If you do re-use yeast and strike problems (which I am sure you
          will), then please save us all a lot of time, and don't bother looking for
          answers to those particular problems on this forum. GG
          ----------
          From: Ted Sims <tedsims@...>
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
          Date: Saturday, 28 April 2001 07:59



          I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast from
          the last batch.

          My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution
          starting at 1.080) finished with nearly 2L of yeast
          slurry in the bottom of container.

          Today I started two new fermentations as follows.

          I used 2 20L plastic beer fermenters. I poured malt
          extract syrup (about 5 kg in each) in the bottom. Then
          added about the same volume of boiled water from a
          kettle, and stirred until the extract was dissolved.
          Then I added sufficient cold and boiling water to make
          about 20 L in each container, at about 27 deg. C.

          I took the slurry from the last batch, which seemed
          very thick and would not pour, and diluted it to 4 L
          using warm water. Then I divided this evenly between
          the two fermenters.

          I had a vigorous fermentation going in about an hour.

          I have never tried doing it this way before.I'll tell
          you how it goes.

          Theo

          __________________________________________________
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        • G&N
          Gary how could someone end up with this much alcohol with only 6 kgs of sugar? Hi Kevin,fancy using the GST return as an excuse to not let us know exactly how
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 29, 2001
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            Gary how could someone end up with this much alcohol with only 6 kgs of
            sugar?













            Hi Kevin,fancy using the GST return as an excuse to not let us know exactly
            how you modified your Still Spirits reflux still.
            I own one the same and strip the 25 litre batch of all alcohol i.e i collect
            the lot between 76 to 95 Celsius.Then i distill it a second time and keep
            the low temp alcohol and anything over 88 celsius seperate, to de
            redistilled in the next batch.Then i filter it through charcoal 3-4 times
            and finish up with a real good end product.My charcoal is cheap and good so
            i dont care how much i use.I finish up with approx 9 litres of 40% with no
            taste or off smells, all from 6 kg of sugar and still spirits hi temp yeast,
            no bullshit.This yeast ferments out to 980 in 3 days but i leave it for 1
            week or more to let it clear up. Regards Jan.


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Gary Gluyas" <gluyas@...>
            To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>; "Ted Sims" <tedsims@...>
            Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 5:33 PM
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast


            > Hello All
            >
            > It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use yeast!
            >
            > The potential for bacteria creeping into the yeast, stray wild yeast, and
            > problems with yeast not performing to the required standard the second
            time
            > around, you are simply opening yourself up to insurmountable hassles.
            >
            > We have had a number of hobby distillers who have problems with bacteria
            > etc with first-time yeast, and no one can guarantee the yeast will be
            > bacteria free the second time around. Some have had to discard their
            > fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular virus, and it is not
            cheap
            > at $30 a time.
            >
            > All these potential problems to try and save a few $$ here and there! It
            > is simply another variable in the process - I thought that one primary
            > reasons of this forum was to try and reduce the variables - not increase
            > them.
            >
            > For the record, a yeast pack in New Zealand retails here - from $NZ 2.00
            > for a plain spirit high-alcohol producing yeast, to $NZ 7.95 for a turbo
            > yeast including all the nutrients as well. If you are successful - AND
            > THAT IS A VERY BIG "IF" - and use the yeast twice - what are you going to
            > save $1 - $4. Surely the yield will be reduced, so . . . what are the
            real
            > actual savings then? Is it really worth it?
            >
            > I just cannot believe that there is thinking out there along these lines -
            > it just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Even though we are
            retailers,
            > and having been involved in this hobby supply business for several years
            > now and as an active distiller, I would not consider re-using yeast ever -
            > nor would I ever suggest that people try it - even if the stuff was twice
            > the price!
            >
            > Kiwi Gary
            > Mill-Ford Lodge Homebrew Shop
            > gluyas@...
            > www.pbsltd.co.nz
            >
            > P.S. If you do re-use yeast and strike problems (which I am sure you
            > will), then please save us all a lot of time, and don't bother looking for
            > answers to those particular problems on this forum. GG
            > ----------
            > From: Ted Sims <tedsims@...>
            > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
            > Date: Saturday, 28 April 2001 07:59
            >
            >
            >
            > I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast from
            > the last batch.
            >
            > My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution
            > starting at 1.080) finished with nearly 2L of yeast
            > slurry in the bottom of container.
            >
            > Today I started two new fermentations as follows.
            >
            > I used 2 20L plastic beer fermenters. I poured malt
            > extract syrup (about 5 kg in each) in the bottom. Then
            > added about the same volume of boiled water from a
            > kettle, and stirred until the extract was dissolved.
            > Then I added sufficient cold and boiling water to make
            > about 20 L in each container, at about 27 deg. C.
            >
            > I took the slurry from the last batch, which seemed
            > very thick and would not pour, and diluted it to 4 L
            > using warm water. Then I divided this evenly between
            > the two fermenters.
            >
            > I had a vigorous fermentation going in about an hour.
            >
            > I have never tried doing it this way before.I'll tell
            > you how it goes.
            >
            > Theo
            >
            > __________________________________________________
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            >
            >
            >
            >
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Ted Palmer
            Here we go again! I m going to put you through the shredder Gary but it is nothing personal. :) Lets do this point by point. ... Economy should not be the
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 29, 2001
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              Here we go again!
                  I'm going to put you through the shredder Gary but it is nothing personal. :)
              Lets do this point by point.
              >It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use yeast!<
              Economy should not be the reason to reuse yeast, it is biology. more on this point later.
               
              >We have had a number of hobby distillers who have problems with bacteria
              etc with first-time yeast, and no one can guarantee the yeast will be
              bacteria free the second time around.  Some have had to discard their
              fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular virus, and it is not cheap
              at $30 a time.<

              Bacterial infections come from many places, the first place to look is the packet that the yeast came in. Yes, that's right, many supposedly "pure" yeast packets are full of bacteria. A lab study done by the Association of Brewers on single use yeast starters from well over a dozen yeast manufacturers showed conclusively that bacterial contamination was in every sample tested though the degree of contamination varied greatly. So what is "pure"? Pure is the least amount of contamination possible to produce a clean and vigorous ferment.
              You are more likely to have a problem with yeast contamination if you under pitch the number of cells per ml. I've covered this a million times so I won't go into it again here. But the reason for this is that the yeast cells control the population of bacteria by reducing the pH of the wash as they grow and if there aren't enough cells to do this the bacteria will thrive. So why do many of your customers get infections? Not enough yeast to do the job. One packet of yeast is NOT enough to EVER do the job. As for virus contamination I've never heard of such a thing in brewing yeast being a problem, Phages that infect yeast are easily killed by heat, chemicals and UV light and aren't a source of the kinds of problems you are experiencing. Phages cause mutations that effect the health of the yeast like respitory deficient mutants and viability problems. More than likely the infections are coming from poor cleaning of fermenters, chillers, spoons or anything else that comes in contact with the wash. That and primary yeast contamination.  Use a good caustic cleaner and then use a strong sanitizers like bleach, or any quaternary sanitizers(milk industry), or my favorite peroxyacetic acid and hydrogen peroxide mix.
               
              >Surely the yield will be reduced, so . . . what are the real
              actual savings then?  Is it really worth it?<

              The yield should not reduce just from reusing the yeast. In fact it should increase just because there are enough yeast cells to do the job. If you do experience a noticeable reduction in output from the yeast then it has mutated or the viability has dropped below 75%. The "turbo" yeasts are highly engineered yeasts and are therefore weak genetically. I don't recommend anyone use such a yeast because of that one point. Fermenting to the theoretical 23% is fine for fuel alcohol but when it comes to beverage alcohol don't go over 18%, There isn't a single commercial beverage distiller that uses turbo yeast or that ferments above 18%! Why should you? Cost? Time? Neither of these factors belong in a hobby.
              >I just cannot believe that there is thinking out there along these lines -
              it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.< 
              I feel this way about using turbo yeasts and fermenting to the theoretical 23% maximum yield. I built my first still over 20 years ago and let me tell you that I never made good booze with a turbo yeast. never. The stuff was engineered for the industrial alcohol industry not beverage. I'd recommend that you toss out all that turbo crap and only sell yeasts that are proven in the beverage industry. You'll see better results and your customers will not get frustrated and quit trying to make this hobby work.
               
              BTW, A good test to tell if the wash you made is going to make good booze is if you can drink a whole glass of wash and enjoy it.
               
              _____________
              Ted Palmer
              tpalmer@...
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 2:33 AM
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast

              Hello All

              It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use yeast! 

              The potential for bacteria creeping into the yeast, stray wild yeast, and
              problems with yeast not performing to the required standard the second time
              around, you are simply opening yourself up to insurmountable hassles.

              We have had a number of hobby distillers who have problems with bacteria
              etc with first-time yeast, and no one can guarantee the yeast will be
              bacteria free the second time around.  Some have had to discard their
              fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular virus, and it is not cheap
              at $30 a time.

              All these potential problems to try and save a few $$ here and there!  It
              is simply another variable in the process - I thought that one primary
              reasons of this forum was to try and reduce the variables - not increase
              them.

              For the record, a yeast pack in New Zealand retails here - from $NZ 2.00
              for a plain spirit high-alcohol producing yeast, to $NZ 7.95 for a turbo
              yeast including all the nutrients as well.  If you are successful - AND
              THAT IS A VERY BIG "IF" - and use the yeast twice - what are you going to
              save $1 - $4.  Surely the yield will be reduced, so . . . what are the real
              actual savings then?  Is it really worth it?

              I just cannot believe that there is thinking out there along these lines -
              it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.  Even though we are retailers,
              and having been involved in this hobby supply business for several years
              now and as an active distiller, I would not consider re-using yeast ever -
              nor would I ever suggest that people try it - even if the stuff was twice
              the price!

              Kiwi Gary
              Mill-Ford Lodge Homebrew Shop
              gluyas@...
              www.pbsltd.co.nz

              P.S.  If you do re-use yeast and strike problems (which I am sure you
              will), then please save us all a lot of time, and don't bother looking for
              answers to those particular problems on this forum.  GG
              ----------
              From: Ted Sims <tedsims@...>
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
              Date: Saturday, 28 April 2001 07:59



              I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast from
              the last batch.

              My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution
              starting at 1.080) finished with nearly 2L of yeast
              slurry in the bottom of container.

              Today I started two new fermentations as follows.

              I used 2 20L plastic beer fermenters. I poured malt
              extract syrup (about 5 kg in each) in the bottom. Then
              added about the same volume of boiled water from a
              kettle, and stirred until the extract was dissolved.
              Then I added sufficient cold and boiling water to make
              about 20 L in each container, at about 27 deg. C.

              I took the slurry from the last batch, which seemed
              very thick and would not pour, and diluted it to 4 L
              using warm water. Then I divided this evenly between
              the two fermenters.

              I had a vigorous fermentation going in about an hour.

              I have never tried doing it this way before.I'll tell
              you how it goes.

              Theo

              __________________________________________________
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            • Pete Sayers
              I agree whole heartedly Gary, I ve had several experts over the years who s main aim is to do things for NOTHING, and then come bleating to me that things
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 29, 2001
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                I agree whole heartedly Gary, I've had several "experts' over the years
                who's main aim is to do things for NOTHING, and then come bleating to me
                that things are going wrong. If people want to SAVE money, start with what
                we know works, and if you are not satisfied, then i would suggest that the
                Retailer is not doing his job properly.
                Pete

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Gary Gluyas [mailto:gluyas@...]
                Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2001 21:34
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com; Ted Sims
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast


                Hello All

                It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use yeast!

                The potential for bacteria creeping into the yeast, stray wild yeast, and
                problems with yeast not performing to the required standard the second time
                around, you are simply opening yourself up to insurmountable hassles.

                We have had a number of hobby distillers who have problems with bacteria
                etc with first-time yeast, and no one can guarantee the yeast will be
                bacteria free the second time around. Some have had to discard their
                fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular virus, and it is not cheap
                at $30 a time.

                All these potential problems to try and save a few $$ here and there! It
                is simply another variable in the process - I thought that one primary
                reasons of this forum was to try and reduce the variables - not increase
                them.

                For the record, a yeast pack in New Zealand retails here - from $NZ 2.00
                for a plain spirit high-alcohol producing yeast, to $NZ 7.95 for a turbo
                yeast including all the nutrients as well. If you are successful - AND
                THAT IS A VERY BIG "IF" - and use the yeast twice - what are you going to
                save $1 - $4. Surely the yield will be reduced, so . . . what are the real
                actual savings then? Is it really worth it?

                I just cannot believe that there is thinking out there along these lines -
                it just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Even though we are retailers,
                and having been involved in this hobby supply business for several years
                now and as an active distiller, I would not consider re-using yeast ever -
                nor would I ever suggest that people try it - even if the stuff was twice
                the price!

                Kiwi Gary
                Mill-Ford Lodge Homebrew Shop
                gluyas@...
                www.pbsltd.co.nz

                P.S. If you do re-use yeast and strike problems (which I am sure you
                will), then please save us all a lot of time, and don't bother looking for
                answers to those particular problems on this forum. GG
                ----------
                From: Ted Sims <tedsims@...>
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
                Date: Saturday, 28 April 2001 07:59



                I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast from
                the last batch.

                My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution
                starting at 1.080) finished with nearly 2L of yeast
                slurry in the bottom of container.

                Today I started two new fermentations as follows.

                I used 2 20L plastic beer fermenters. I poured malt
                extract syrup (about 5 kg in each) in the bottom. Then
                added about the same volume of boiled water from a
                kettle, and stirred until the extract was dissolved.
                Then I added sufficient cold and boiling water to make
                about 20 L in each container, at about 27 deg. C.

                I took the slurry from the last batch, which seemed
                very thick and would not pour, and diluted it to 4 L
                using warm water. Then I divided this evenly between
                the two fermenters.

                I had a vigorous fermentation going in about an hour.

                I have never tried doing it this way before.I'll tell
                you how it goes.

                Theo

                __________________________________________________
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              • Giles
                I used to dutifully buy my little packet of yeast from the home brew shop every time i wanted to brew a batch (beer or wash). I used to wait nervously for 24+
                Message 7 of 11 , May 1 7:22 AM
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                  I used to dutifully buy my little packet of yeast from the home brew
                  shop every time i wanted to brew a batch (beer or wash). I used to
                  wait nervously for 24+ hours for some sign of fermentation and
                  another 24 before i saw a good yeast cap form. This was even after
                  making a starter in a pint or so of warm water. That was before i
                  'discovered ' after reading posts in this group that if you throw lots
                  of thick yeast sludge from the last successful brew into wash or
                  beer at 20-25C you can have vigourous fermentation in just a few
                  hours and ferment cleaner and quicker to boot. I don't think you can
                  have too much yeast present. I usually fill a sanitised 1l PET bottle
                  with yeast sludge after brewing beer and keep it in the fridge till i
                  need it. Seems to me that the more yeast you can introduce at the
                  outset, the more competition there is for the bugs and the less likely
                  you are to get infections. This has nothing to do with being
                  parsimonious, I just think that it makes sense.
                • Ted Sims
                  The two fermenters pitched with the reused yeast are essentially finished fermenting. I ll check the S.G. in a day or two...and also give it a taste. The beer
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 1 11:41 AM
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                    The two fermenters pitched with the reused yeast are
                    essentially finished fermenting. I'll check the S.G.
                    in a day or two...and also give it a taste.

                    The beer from the first fermentation was quite tasty,
                    so good in fact that I bottled 6 large bottles of it
                    (for my 80 year old father-in-law, who says it is "a
                    meal in itself").
                    I have already distilled the rest of this batch, and I
                    will prepare a report and post it later, also with
                    details and a pic of the still. I have this list
                    (archives esp.) and Tony's site to thank for a
                    successful run.

                    I have to agree with something Ted Palmer said. I am
                    not into the industrial alcohol distillation scene
                    either. It was common knowledge among the old
                    moonshiners here (the variety that used corn), that
                    the secret to good liquor was in the mash boxes, not
                    in the working of the still.

                    So, I don't really understand the idea of trying to
                    make what is basically "lab" alcohol out of cheap
                    sugar and industrial yeast, then spending more money
                    to fix it with fancy activated carbon, then trying to
                    put an "essence" in it to make it taste like real
                    liquor.

                    I will report on my run later, but I'll say now that
                    the liquor is good to drink, right out of the still,
                    after watering it down a bit.

                    Cheers
                    Ted
                    --- Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...> wrote:
                    > Here we go again!
                    > I'm going to put you through the shredder Gary
                    > but it is nothing personal. :)
                    > Lets do this point by point.
                    > >It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use
                    > yeast!<
                    > Economy should not be the reason to reuse yeast, it
                    > is biology. more on this point later.
                    >
                    > >We have had a number of hobby distillers who have
                    > problems with bacteria
                    > etc with first-time yeast, and no one can guarantee
                    > the yeast will be
                    > bacteria free the second time around. Some have had
                    > to discard their
                    > fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular
                    > virus, and it is not cheap
                    > at $30 a time.<
                    > Bacterial infections come from many places, the
                    > first place to look is the packet that the yeast
                    > came in. Yes, that's right, many supposedly "pure"
                    > yeast packets are full of bacteria. A lab study done
                    > by the Association of Brewers on single use yeast
                    > starters from well over a dozen yeast manufacturers
                    > showed conclusively that bacterial contamination was
                    > in every sample tested though the degree of
                    > contamination varied greatly. So what is "pure"?
                    > Pure is the least amount of contamination possible
                    > to produce a clean and vigorous ferment.
                    > You are more likely to have a problem with yeast
                    > contamination if you under pitch the number of cells
                    > per ml. I've covered this a million times so I won't
                    > go into it again here. But the reason for this is
                    > that the yeast cells control the population of
                    > bacteria by reducing the pH of the wash as they grow
                    > and if there aren't enough cells to do this the
                    > bacteria will thrive. So why do many of your
                    > customers get infections? Not enough yeast to do the
                    > job. One packet of yeast is NOT enough to EVER do
                    > the job. As for virus contamination I've never heard
                    > of such a thing in brewing yeast being a problem,
                    > Phages that infect yeast are easily killed by heat,
                    > chemicals and UV light and aren't a source of the
                    > kinds of problems you are experiencing. Phages cause
                    > mutations that effect the health of the yeast like
                    > respitory deficient mutants and viability problems.
                    > More than likely the infections are coming from poor
                    > cleaning of fermenters, chillers, spoons or anything
                    > else that comes in contact with the wash. That and
                    > primary yeast contamination. Use a good caustic
                    > cleaner and then use a strong sanitizers like
                    > bleach, or any quaternary sanitizers(milk industry),
                    > or my favorite peroxyacetic acid and hydrogen
                    > peroxide mix.
                    >
                    > >Surely the yield will be reduced, so . . . what are
                    > the real
                    > actual savings then? Is it really worth it?<
                    > The yield should not reduce just from reusing the
                    > yeast. In fact it should increase just because there
                    > are enough yeast cells to do the job. If you do
                    > experience a noticeable reduction in output from the
                    > yeast then it has mutated or the viability has
                    > dropped below 75%. The "turbo" yeasts are highly
                    > engineered yeasts and are therefore weak
                    > genetically. I don't recommend anyone use such a
                    > yeast because of that one point. Fermenting to the
                    > theoretical 23% is fine for fuel alcohol but when it
                    > comes to beverage alcohol don't go over 18%, There
                    > isn't a single commercial beverage distiller that
                    > uses turbo yeast or that ferments above 18%! Why
                    > should you? Cost? Time? Neither of these factors
                    > belong in a hobby.
                    > >I just cannot believe that there is thinking out
                    > there along these lines -
                    > it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.<
                    > I feel this way about using turbo yeasts and
                    > fermenting to the theoretical 23% maximum yield. I
                    > built my first still over 20 years ago and let me
                    > tell you that I never made good booze with a turbo
                    > yeast. never. The stuff was engineered for the
                    > industrial alcohol industry not beverage. I'd
                    > recommend that you toss out all that turbo crap and
                    > only sell yeasts that are proven in the beverage
                    > industry. You'll see better results and your
                    > customers will not get frustrated and quit trying to
                    > make this hobby work.
                    >
                    > BTW, A good test to tell if the wash you made is
                    > going to make good booze is if you can drink a whole
                    > glass of wash and enjoy it.
                    >
                    > _____________
                    > Ted Palmer
                    > tpalmer@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Gary Gluyas
                    > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Sims
                    > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 2:33 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello All
                    >
                    > It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use
                    > yeast!
                    >
                    > The potential for bacteria creeping into the
                    > yeast, stray wild yeast, and
                    > problems with yeast not performing to the required
                    > standard the second time
                    > around, you are simply opening yourself up to
                    > insurmountable hassles.
                    >
                    > We have had a number of hobby distillers who have
                    > problems with bacteria
                    > etc with first-time yeast, and no one can
                    > guarantee the yeast will be
                    > bacteria free the second time around. Some have
                    > had to discard their
                    > fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular
                    > virus, and it is not cheap
                    > at $30 a time.
                    >
                    > All these potential problems to try and save a few
                    > $$ here and there! It
                    > is simply another variable in the process - I
                    > thought that one primary
                    > reasons of this forum was to try and reduce the
                    > variables - not increase
                    > them.
                    >
                    > For the record, a yeast pack in New Zealand
                    > retails here - from $NZ 2.00
                    > for a plain spirit high-alcohol producing yeast,
                    > to $NZ 7.95 for a turbo
                    > yeast including all the nutrients as well. If you
                    > are successful - AND
                    > THAT IS A VERY BIG "IF" - and use the yeast twice
                    > - what are you going to
                    > save $1 - $4. Surely the yield will be reduced,
                    > so . . . what are the real
                    > actual savings then? Is it really worth it?
                    >
                    > I just cannot believe that there is thinking out
                    > there along these lines -
                    > it just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Even
                    > though we are retailers,
                    > and having been involved in this hobby supply
                    > business for several years
                    > now and as an active distiller, I would not
                    > consider re-using yeast ever -
                    > nor would I ever suggest that people try it - even
                    > if the stuff was twice
                    > the price!
                    >
                    > Kiwi Gary
                    > Mill-Ford Lodge Homebrew Shop
                    > gluyas@...
                    > www.pbsltd.co.nz
                    >
                    > P.S. If you do re-use yeast and strike problems
                    > (which I am sure you
                    > will), then please save us all a lot of time, and
                    > don't bother looking for
                    > answers to those particular problems on this
                    > forum. GG
                    > ----------
                    > From: Ted Sims <tedsims@...>
                    > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
                    > Date: Saturday, 28 April 2001 07:59
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast
                    > from
                    > the last batch.
                    >
                    > My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution
                    > starting at 1.080) finished with nearly 2L of
                    > yeast
                    > slurry in the bottom of container.
                    >
                    > Today I started two new fermentations as follows.
                    >
                    > I used 2 20L plastic beer fermenters. I poured
                    > malt
                    > extract syrup (about 5 kg in each) in the bottom.
                    > Then
                    > added about the same volume of boiled water from a
                    > kettle, and stirred until the extract was
                    > dissolved.
                    > Then I added sufficient cold and boiling water to
                    > make
                    > about 20 L in each container, at about 27 deg. C.
                    >
                    >
                    === message truncated ===


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                  • Ted Palmer
                    ... Makes perfect sense! If you want to store the yeast for more than a week it should be washed first and stored under glycerin. I think there is info on that
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 1 4:09 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >I just think that it makes sense. <
                      Makes perfect sense!
                      If you want to store the yeast for more than a week it should be washed first and stored under glycerin. I think there is info on that in the bookmarks section.
                      The Microbrewery Laboratory Manual
                      Part 1: Yeast Management
                      http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.4/allen.html
                       The Microbrewery Laboratory Manual
                      Part III: Wild Yeast Detection and Remediation
                      http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.6/allen.html
                       
                       The Microbrewery Laboratory Manual
                      Part II: Bacteria Detection, Enumeration, and Identification
                      http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.5/allen.html
                      _____________
                      Ted Palmer
                      tpalmer@...
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Giles
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:22 AM
                      Subject: RE: [Distillers] Reusing yeast

                      I used to dutifully buy my little packet of yeast from the home brew
                      shop every time i wanted to brew a batch (beer or wash). I used to
                      wait nervously for 24+ hours for some sign of fermentation and
                      another 24 before i saw a good yeast cap form. This was even after
                      making a starter in a pint or so of warm water. That was before i
                      'discovered ' after reading  posts in this group that if you throw lots
                      of thick yeast sludge from the last successful brew into wash or
                      beer at 20-25C you can have vigourous fermentation in just a few
                      hours and ferment cleaner and quicker to boot. I don't think you can
                      have too much yeast present. I usually fill a sanitised 1l PET bottle
                      with yeast sludge after brewing beer and keep it in the fridge till i
                      need it. Seems to me that the more yeast you can introduce at the
                      outset, the more competition there is for the bugs and the less likely
                      you are to get infections. This has nothing to do with being
                      parsimonious, I just think that it makes sense.


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                    • Ted Palmer
                      Yeast Washing for the Homebrewer http://hbd.org/brewery/library/yeast-faq.html#part_three This is a pretty good FAQ for yeast in general too. _____________ Ted
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 1 4:32 PM
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                        Yeast Washing for the Homebrewer
                         
                        This is a pretty good FAQ for yeast in general too.
                        _____________
                        Ted Palmer
                        tpalmer@...
                      • Ted Palmer
                        Making lab alcohol is very challenging and is lots of fun, I enjoy it myself. getting a column to run perfect is akin to model rocketry or building robots. I
                        Message 11 of 11 , May 1 4:49 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Making "lab" alcohol is very challenging and is lots of fun, I enjoy it myself. getting a column to run perfect is akin to model rocketry or building robots. I think we all just want to be the mad scientist tinkering in the basement.
                          _____________
                          Ted Palmer
                          tpalmer@...
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Ted Sims
                          Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:41 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast

                          The two fermenters pitched with the reused yeast are
                          essentially finished fermenting. I'll check the S.G.
                          in a day or two...and also give it a taste.

                          The beer from the first fermentation was quite tasty,
                          so good  in fact that I bottled 6 large bottles of it
                          (for my 80 year old father-in-law, who says it is "a
                          meal in itself").
                          I have already distilled the rest of this batch, and I
                          will prepare a report and post it later, also with
                          details and a pic of the still. I have this list
                          (archives esp.) and Tony's site to thank for a
                          successful run.

                          I have to agree with something Ted Palmer said. I am
                          not into the industrial alcohol distillation scene
                          either. It was common knowledge among the old
                          moonshiners here (the variety that used corn), that
                          the secret to good liquor was in the mash boxes, not
                          in the working of the still.

                          So, I don't really understand the idea of trying to
                          make what is basically "lab" alcohol out of cheap
                          sugar and industrial yeast, then spending more money
                          to fix it with fancy activated carbon, then trying to
                          put an "essence" in it to make it taste like real
                          liquor.

                          I will report on my run later, but I'll say now that
                          the liquor is good to drink, right out of the still,
                          after watering it down a bit.

                          Cheers
                          Ted
                          --- Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...> wrote:
                          > Here we go again!
                          >     I'm going to put you through the shredder Gary
                          > but it is nothing personal. :)
                          > Lets do this point by point.
                          > >It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use
                          > yeast!<
                          > Economy should not be the reason to reuse yeast, it
                          > is biology. more on this point later.
                          >
                          > >We have had a number of hobby distillers who have
                          > problems with bacteria
                          > etc with first-time yeast, and no one can guarantee
                          > the yeast will be
                          > bacteria free the second time around.  Some have had
                          > to discard their
                          > fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular
                          > virus, and it is not cheap
                          > at $30 a time.<
                          > Bacterial infections come from many places, the
                          > first place to look is the packet that the yeast
                          > came in. Yes, that's right, many supposedly "pure"
                          > yeast packets are full of bacteria. A lab study done
                          > by the Association of Brewers on single use yeast
                          > starters from well over a dozen yeast manufacturers
                          > showed conclusively that bacterial contamination was
                          > in every sample tested though the degree of
                          > contamination varied greatly. So what is "pure"?
                          > Pure is the least amount of contamination possible
                          > to produce a clean and vigorous ferment.
                          > You are more likely to have a problem with yeast
                          > contamination if you under pitch the number of cells
                          > per ml. I've covered this a million times so I won't
                          > go into it again here. But the reason for this is
                          > that the yeast cells control the population of
                          > bacteria by reducing the pH of the wash as they grow
                          > and if there aren't enough cells to do this the
                          > bacteria will thrive. So why do many of your
                          > customers get infections? Not enough yeast to do the
                          > job. One packet of yeast is NOT enough to EVER do
                          > the job. As for virus contamination I've never heard
                          > of such a thing in brewing yeast being a problem,
                          > Phages that infect yeast are easily killed by heat,
                          > chemicals and UV light and aren't a source of the
                          > kinds of problems you are experiencing. Phages cause
                          > mutations that effect the health of the yeast like
                          > respitory deficient mutants and viability problems.
                          > More than likely the infections are coming from poor
                          > cleaning of fermenters, chillers, spoons or anything
                          > else that comes in contact with the wash. That and
                          > primary yeast contamination.  Use a good caustic
                          > cleaner and then use a strong sanitizers like
                          > bleach, or any quaternary sanitizers(milk industry),
                          > or my favorite peroxyacetic acid and hydrogen
                          > peroxide mix.
                          >
                          > >Surely the yield will be reduced, so . . . what are
                          > the real
                          > actual savings then?  Is it really worth it?<
                          > The yield should not reduce just from reusing the
                          > yeast. In fact it should increase just because there
                          > are enough yeast cells to do the job. If you do
                          > experience a noticeable reduction in output from the
                          > yeast then it has mutated or the viability has
                          > dropped below 75%. The "turbo" yeasts are highly
                          > engineered yeasts and are therefore weak
                          > genetically. I don't recommend anyone use such a
                          > yeast because of that one point. Fermenting to the
                          > theoretical 23% is fine for fuel alcohol but when it
                          > comes to beverage alcohol don't go over 18%, There
                          > isn't a single commercial beverage distiller that
                          > uses turbo yeast or that ferments above 18%! Why
                          > should you? Cost? Time? Neither of these factors
                          > belong in a hobby.
                          > >I just cannot believe that there is thinking out
                          > there along these lines -
                          > it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.< 
                          > I feel this way about using turbo yeasts and
                          > fermenting to the theoretical 23% maximum yield. I
                          > built my first still over 20 years ago and let me
                          > tell you that I never made good booze with a turbo
                          > yeast. never. The stuff was engineered for the
                          > industrial alcohol industry not beverage. I'd
                          > recommend that you toss out all that turbo crap and
                          > only sell yeasts that are proven in the beverage
                          > industry. You'll see better results and your
                          > customers will not get frustrated and quit trying to
                          > make this hobby work.
                          >
                          > BTW, A good test to tell if the wash you made is
                          > going to make good booze is if you can drink a whole
                          > glass of wash and enjoy it.
                          >
                          > _____________
                          > Ted Palmer
                          > tpalmer@...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          >   From: Gary Gluyas
                          >   To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Sims
                          >   Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 2:33 AM
                          >   Subject: Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
                          >
                          >
                          >   Hello All
                          >
                          >   It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use
                          > yeast! 
                          >
                          >   The potential for bacteria creeping into the
                          > yeast, stray wild yeast, and
                          >   problems with yeast not performing to the required
                          > standard the second time
                          >   around, you are simply opening yourself up to
                          > insurmountable hassles.
                          >
                          >   We have had a number of hobby distillers who have
                          > problems with bacteria
                          >   etc with first-time yeast, and no one can
                          > guarantee the yeast will be
                          >   bacteria free the second time around.  Some have
                          > had to discard their
                          >   fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular
                          > virus, and it is not cheap
                          >   at $30 a time.
                          >
                          >   All these potential problems to try and save a few
                          > $$ here and there!  It
                          >   is simply another variable in the process - I
                          > thought that one primary
                          >   reasons of this forum was to try and reduce the
                          > variables - not increase
                          >   them.
                          >
                          >   For the record, a yeast pack in New Zealand
                          > retails here - from $NZ 2.00
                          >   for a plain spirit high-alcohol producing yeast,
                          > to $NZ 7.95 for a turbo
                          >   yeast including all the nutrients as well.  If you
                          > are successful - AND
                          >   THAT IS A VERY BIG "IF" - and use the yeast twice
                          > - what are you going to
                          >   save $1 - $4.  Surely the yield will be reduced,
                          > so . . . what are the real
                          >   actual savings then?  Is it really worth it?
                          >
                          >   I just cannot believe that there is thinking out
                          > there along these lines -
                          >   it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.  Even
                          > though we are retailers,
                          >   and having been involved in this hobby supply
                          > business for several years
                          >   now and as an active distiller, I would not
                          > consider re-using yeast ever -
                          >   nor would I ever suggest that people try it - even
                          > if the stuff was twice
                          >   the price!
                          >
                          >   Kiwi Gary
                          >   Mill-Ford Lodge Homebrew Shop
                          >   gluyas@...
                          >   www.pbsltd.co.nz
                          >
                          >   P.S.  If you do re-use yeast and strike problems
                          > (which I am sure you
                          >   will), then please save us all a lot of time, and
                          > don't bother looking for
                          >   answers to those particular problems on this
                          > forum.  GG
                          >   ----------
                          >   From: Ted Sims <tedsims@...>
                          >   To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          >   Subject: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
                          >   Date: Saturday, 28 April 2001 07:59
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >   I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast
                          > from
                          >   the last batch.
                          >
                          >   My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution
                          >   starting at 1.080) finished with nearly 2L of
                          > yeast
                          >   slurry in the bottom of container.
                          >
                          >   Today I started two new fermentations as follows.
                          >
                          >   I used 2 20L plastic beer fermenters. I poured
                          > malt
                          >   extract syrup (about 5 kg in each) in the bottom.
                          > Then
                          >   added about the same volume of boiled water from a
                          >   kettle, and stirred until the extract was
                          > dissolved.
                          >   Then I added sufficient cold and boiling water to
                          > make
                          >   about 20 L in each container, at about 27 deg. C.
                          >
                          >
                          === message truncated ===


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