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160 proof in a pot still?

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  • mstehelin
    With 2nd run I have seen 80% ABV. Is this normal? or is there some sort of internal reflux going on? Cheers M
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2008
      With 2nd run I have seen 80% ABV. Is this normal? or is there some
      sort of internal reflux going on?
      Cheers
      M
    • rye_junkie
      I think it has a lot to do with column height. I get about 83% on my 2nd run in my pot still. No packing and no cooling except ambient air. 18 long x 1
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 1, 2008
        I think it has a lot to do with column height. I get about 83% on my
        2nd run in my pot still. No packing and no cooling except ambient
        air. 18" long x 1" diameter. I did a single run over the weekend of
        wheat germ in a new 1.5" x 20" column with a single cooling tube in
        the top that came out 79% again no packing just cooling. I wanted to
        run it as slow as possible but the ambient air on that length column
        needed a pretty good flame. I insulated the column with some armaflex
        and that cured the problem. Was able to run at a whisper flame. I
        had the cooling ran in the following manner: Into and out product
        liebig then into column and out to waste.
        Just a condenser note. For !@#$'s and giggles I also wrapped the
        liebig and found i was able to turn the flow to about half of normal
        and maintain very cool distillate.

        Mason

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...> wrote:
        >
        > With 2nd run I have seen 80% ABV. Is this normal? or is there some
        > sort of internal reflux going on?
        > Cheers
        > M
        >
      • Trid
        ... Yes, and yes. At the head end of your second run, you will see upwards of 90% This also depends on how much you ve diluted your low wines. Depending on
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 1, 2008
          --- mstehelin <mstehelin@...> wrote:

          > With 2nd run I have seen 80% ABV. Is this normal? or is there some
          > sort of internal reflux going on?
          > Cheers
          > M

          Yes, and yes.

          At the head end of your second run, you will see upwards of 90% This also
          depends on how much you've diluted your low wines.

          Depending on how hard you push your heat input (and for second runs, it should
          be fairly moderate to low) you can get higher percentages for longer.
          Remember, the walls of your column are being cooled by air unless they're
          insulated. The taller the column, the greater the proportion of naturally
          occurring reflux. Overall, this isn't much, maybe (I'm just throwing out
          arbitrary numbers here) the difference between 1% and 2%, but enough to raise
          your ultimate collection concentration noticeably. If you lower your heat
          input, then the rising vapors have even greater opportunity to condense/reflux.
          Adding copper scrubbers to your pot column will increase the effectiveness of
          this naturally occurring reflux. Conversely, insulating your column and
          keeping it empty will reduce/eliminate any reflux.

          Trid
          -hopefully not adding to the confusion
        • Glen Younglove
          i get 175-180 proof one run every time no fuss no muss if it works for ya go for it . pugs2510
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 3, 2008
            i get 175-180 proof one run every time no fuss no muss if it works for ya go for it .
             
            pugs2510
          • mstehelin
            The column is 3/4 inch pipe about 13 inches long. ... for ya go for it .
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
              The "column" is 3/4 inch pipe about 13 inches long.


              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Glen Younglove <pugs2510@...> wrote:
              >
              > i get 175-180 proof one run every time no fuss no muss if it works
              for ya go for it .
              >
              > pugs2510
              >
            • gff_stwrt
              Hi, folks, I have a pot still, using a stock-pot that holds around 16 litres when distilling. I heat it with LPG (probably in the States you would say propane)
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 5, 2008
                Hi, folks,

                I have a pot still, using a stock-pot that holds around 16
                litres when distilling. I heat it with LPG (probably in the States
                you would say propane) using a gas ring with two double rows of
                holes, and I have to turn it down a bit because if it's fully on,
                the flame spreads beyond the bottom of the pot.

                The still has a two-inch copper column of around four feet six
                inches high. At the top it turns to a bit under level and after
                about a foot it changes to about one and a quarter inches and
                extends sideways for another five feet. The condenser is stainless,
                at around 45 degrees and is four feet six inches long, around two
                inches outside and one and a quarter inches inside. (It was a pre-
                cooler in a milking machine and I got it for free).
                It produces around 2 1/2 or more litres per hour.

                I have just been given over 100 litres of lightish red wine, a
                few years old in bottles, sour and not much tannnin and barely
                drinkable as wine. But the first lot through the still (after the
                foreshots and a small amount of heads) was quite strong in alcohol
                (over 60% is my guess, I have mislaid my test equipment while
                renovating) and had a very attractive aroma from the wine.
                What is the best way to keep some of this aroma and flavour in
                the brandy? I am not very experienced but to me this may end up as
                something special.

                I am thinking of taking the hearts out of the first run, and
                putting the little bit of heads and most of the tails into the
                next 'first' run.
                What do you think?

                Thanks for your help,

                Regards,

                The Baker



                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- mstehelin <mstehelin@...> wrote:
                >
                > > With 2nd run I have seen 80% ABV. Is this normal? or is there
                some
                > > sort of internal reflux going on?
                > > Cheers
                > > M
                >
                > Yes, and yes.
                >
                > At the head end of your second run, you will see upwards of 90%
                This also
                > depends on how much you've diluted your low wines.
                >
                > Depending on how hard you push your heat input (and for second
                runs, it should
                > be fairly moderate to low) you can get higher percentages for
                longer.
                > Remember, the walls of your column are being cooled by air unless
                they're
                > insulated. The taller the column, the greater the proportion of
                naturally
                > occurring reflux. Overall, this isn't much, maybe (I'm just
                throwing out
                > arbitrary numbers here) the difference between 1% and 2%, but
                enough to raise
                > your ultimate collection concentration noticeably. If you lower
                your heat
                > input, then the rising vapors have even greater opportunity to
                condense/reflux.
                > Adding copper scrubbers to your pot column will increase the
                effectiveness of
                > this naturally occurring reflux. Conversely, insulating your
                column and
                > keeping it empty will reduce/eliminate any reflux.
                >
                > Trid
                > -hopefully not adding to the confusion
                >
              • mstehelin
                Mr. Baker, When you distill x2 you not only increase alcohol content, but you increase flavour. I Recommend that you re-use heads and tails as per your plan.
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 7, 2008
                  Mr. Baker,
                  When you distill x2 you not only increase alcohol content, but you
                  increase flavour. I Recommend that you re-use heads and tails as per
                  your plan. You might find that the flavours become very strong almost
                  like a whiskey, when aged on oak. Pint-o-shine had a pretty good post
                  regarding blending different cuts from the same run. It was a reply
                  to a post so you might have to search his posts.
                  Cheers
                  M



                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi, folks,
                  >
                  > I have a pot still, using a stock-pot that holds around 16
                  > litres when distilling. I heat it with LPG (probably in the States
                  > you would say propane) using a gas ring with two double rows of
                  > holes, and I have to turn it down a bit because if it's fully on,
                  > the flame spreads beyond the bottom of the pot.
                  >
                  > The still has a two-inch copper column of around four feet six
                  > inches high. At the top it turns to a bit under level and after
                  > about a foot it changes to about one and a quarter inches and
                  > extends sideways for another five feet. The condenser is stainless,
                  > at around 45 degrees and is four feet six inches long, around two
                  > inches outside and one and a quarter inches inside. (It was a pre-
                  > cooler in a milking machine and I got it for free).
                  > It produces around 2 1/2 or more litres per hour.
                  >
                  > I have just been given over 100 litres of lightish red wine, a
                  > few years old in bottles, sour and not much tannnin and barely
                  > drinkable as wine. But the first lot through the still (after the
                  > foreshots and a small amount of heads) was quite strong in alcohol
                  > (over 60% is my guess, I have mislaid my test equipment while
                  > renovating) and had a very attractive aroma from the wine.
                  > What is the best way to keep some of this aroma and flavour in
                  > the brandy? I am not very experienced but to me this may end up as
                  > something special.
                  >
                  > I am thinking of taking the hearts out of the first run, and
                  > putting the little bit of heads and most of the tails into the
                  > next 'first' run.
                  > What do you think?
                  >
                  > Thanks for your help,
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > The Baker
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- mstehelin <mstehelin@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > With 2nd run I have seen 80% ABV. Is this normal? or is there
                  > some
                  > > > sort of internal reflux going on?
                  > > > Cheers
                  > > > M
                  > >
                  > > Yes, and yes.
                  > >
                  > > At the head end of your second run, you will see upwards of 90%
                  > This also
                  > > depends on how much you've diluted your low wines.
                  > >
                  > > Depending on how hard you push your heat input (and for second
                  > runs, it should
                  > > be fairly moderate to low) you can get higher percentages for
                  > longer.
                  > > Remember, the walls of your column are being cooled by air unless
                  > they're
                  > > insulated. The taller the column, the greater the proportion of
                  > naturally
                  > > occurring reflux. Overall, this isn't much, maybe (I'm just
                  > throwing out
                  > > arbitrary numbers here) the difference between 1% and 2%, but
                  > enough to raise
                  > > your ultimate collection concentration noticeably. If you lower
                  > your heat
                  > > input, then the rising vapors have even greater opportunity to
                  > condense/reflux.
                  > > Adding copper scrubbers to your pot column will increase the
                  > effectiveness of
                  > > this naturally occurring reflux. Conversely, insulating your
                  > column and
                  > > keeping it empty will reduce/eliminate any reflux.
                  > >
                  > > Trid
                  > > -hopefully not adding to the confusion
                  > >
                  >
                • jamesonbeam1
                  Hey M, I think the message your talking about is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/41812
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 7, 2008

                    Hey M,  

                    I think the message your talking about is:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/41812  where he was responding to myself and Trid on  the thread of  "Heads, tails, foreshots, middle run?? ".

                    However, I believe that unless you add all your feints (heads and tails), then decrease the abv of the next distillation - see : http://www.artisan-distiller.org/photoalbum/photos/pint_o_shine/Potstill_Dilute.GIF   - it might cause less flavors.

                    Harry and Sherman (Pint O Shine) developed this for pot stills, if you dont,  you will end up with more alcohol and less flavors (the more you re-distill - the closer you get to the azeotrope of alcohol - with no flavors).

                    Sometimes i add the backset to dilute the next distillation for even more flavors for my sourmash.

                    Vino es Veritas,

                    Jim.

                     

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...> wrote:

                    Mr. Baker,
                    When you distill x2 you not only increase alcohol content, but you
                    increase flavour. I Recommend that you re-use heads and tails as per
                    your plan. You might find that the flavours become very strong almost
                    like a whiskey, when aged on oak. Pint-o-shine had a pretty good post
                    regarding blending different cuts from the same run. It was a reply
                    to a post so you might have to search his posts.
                    Cheers
                    M



                  • duds2u
                    The last couple of malt whisky runs I have done utilised the info from Harry and Pint about diluting the spirit run wash. I had always diluted it down to about
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 7, 2008
                      The last couple of malt whisky runs I have done utilised the info
                      from Harry and Pint about diluting the spirit run wash. I had always
                      diluted it down to about 40% but the problem was I was getting too
                      much alcohol volume at too high a percentage to carry over the
                      flavours I was looking for thus reducing the volume of hearts. Now I
                      dilute the combined low wines and feints to 27%ABV. It has made quite
                      a difference.

                      I am now taking only about 250ml of heads (plus the foreshots that I
                      throw out) before cutting to the heart run from about 75% to 64%.
                      These cuts vary a bit depending on my nose and tongue. Everything
                      else then goes into the feints bottle along with the heads. By the
                      way the feints are getting very familiar with my still as they just
                      had their 16th trip through it. Makes for a nice consistent flavour
                      profile.
                      Cheers
                      Duds

                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hey M,
                      >
                      > I think the message your talking about is:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/41812
                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/41812> where he
                      was
                      > responding to myself and Trid on the thread of "Heads, tails,
                      > foreshots, middle run?? ".
                      >
                      > However, I believe that unless you add all your feints (heads and
                      > tails), then decrease the abv of the next distillation - see :
                      > http://www.artisan-
                      distiller.org/photoalbum/photos/pint_o_shine/Potstill\
                      > _Dilute.GIF
                      > <http://www.artisan-
                      distiller.org/photoalbum/photos/pint_o_shine/Potstil\
                      > l_Dilute.GIF> - it might cause less flavors.
                      >
                      > Harry and Sherman (Pint O Shine) developed this for pot stills, if
                      you
                      > dont, you will end up with more alcohol and less flavors (the more
                      you
                      > re-distill - the closer you get to the azeotrope of alcohol - with
                      no
                      > flavors).
                      >
                      > Sometimes i add the backset to dilute the next distillation for even
                      > more flavors for my sourmash.
                      >
                      > Vino es Veritas,
                      >
                      > Jim.
                      >
                      >
                    • gff_stwrt
                      (--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, mstehelin wrote:) ... Thanks, M , for your reply; thanks also to Jameson (Message 42087) and duds
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 7, 2008
                        (--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...>
                        wrote:)


                        >Hi, folks,

                        Thanks, M , for your reply; thanks also to Jameson (Message 42087)
                        and duds (Message 42088).

                        What I plan to do in the first place is to freeze the wine (in
                        around 10 x 10-litre buckets) in the walk-in freezer at work. I will
                        take it out and strain out the ice before it is frozen (more or
                        less) solid.
                        I have done this before and to me it seems a lot easier. I have
                        some supermarket vegetable bins a bit bigger than 2' x 1' x 1' high,
                        with 1/8 holes at 1" centres in the bottom, and they make great
                        strainers!

                        I will probably do this twice; I hope in this way to end up with
                        less water but retain almost all of the alcohol and the flavour.

                        In the week or so that this takes I will think about your ideas
                        and plan how to distill the wine.

                        Here are some (more or less random) thoughts about it:

                        * It will already be 'partly distilled' because of the freezing so
                        maybe I will only put it through the still once

                        * After the first run I could (after throwing out the foreshots)put
                        the feints (heads-and-tails) or part of the feints into the next run
                        (making cuts is something I have to learn more about from
                        experience)

                        * Because I have quite a lot of wine, I could leave out altogether
                        any part of the heads, and the tails, that don't have any trace of
                        the nice aroma, and put them in as feints into the next few 'second
                        runs' of more ordinary stuff.
                        (I like the idea (pint's?) of eventually adding a doubler to my
                        still and making vodka with the pot still on the third (?)run
                        through)

                        But would some of the stuff I left out have been important to the
                        brandy when it is mature? (Like wine, where the acid and the tannin
                        are important as well as the flavour/aroma?)

                        * I will also look up some of the information on our site on
                        disitlling fruit wines as I guess retaining the aroma is important
                        there too.

                        Again thank you all, you have given me a lot to think about.
                        If anyone else has any ideas please tell me about them.

                        Regards,
                        The Baker

                        >
                        > Mr. Baker,
                        > When you distill x2 you not only increase alcohol content, but you
                        > increase flavour. I Recommend that you re-use heads and tails as
                        per
                        > your plan. You might find that the flavours become very strong
                        almost
                        > like a whiskey, when aged on oak. Pint-o-shine had a pretty good
                        post
                        > regarding blending different cuts from the same run. It was a
                        reply
                        > to a post so you might have to search his posts.
                        > Cheers
                        > M
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi, folks,
                        > >
                        > > (snip)
                        > > I have just been given over 100 litres of lightish red wine,
                        a
                        > > few years old in bottles, sour and not much tannnin and barely
                        > > drinkable as wine. But the first lot through the still (after
                        the
                        > > foreshots and a small amount of heads) was quite strong in
                        alcohol
                        > > (over 60% is my guess, I have mislaid my test equipment while
                        > > renovating) and had a very attractive aroma from the wine.
                        > > What is the best way to keep some of this aroma and
                        flavour in
                        > > the brandy? I am not very experienced but to me this may end up
                        as
                        > > something special.
                        > >
                        > > I am thinking of taking the hearts out of the first run,
                        and
                        > > putting the little bit of heads and most of the tails into the
                        > > next 'first' run.
                        > > What do you think?
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for your help,
                        > >
                        > > Regards,
                        > >
                        > > The Baker
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                      • jamesonbeam1
                        Hey Baker, what your talking about is called jacking - I made applejack like that when I was in college. However, you must have a cold enough temp to get the
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 8, 2008

                          Hey Baker,

                          what your talking about is called "jacking" - I made applejack like that when I was in college.

                          However, you must have a cold enough temp to get the alcohol up.  Read this:

                           

                          MAKING APPLEJACK

                          The features that make Applejack different from hard cider or

                          apple wine is that it has a higher concentration of alcohol. It

                          can be as high as 30% alcohol or 60 proof. Also, the apple

                          flavor is more intense or concentrated.

                          Applejack is made by storing completely finished apple wine at
                          below freezing temperatures. What happens is the water that is
                          in the apple wine freezes and rises to the top while the alcohol
                          stays in liquid form - a process known as fractional crystal-
                          lization.


                          The following will give you an idea of how concentrated the alcohol can become at a given temperature: at zero degrees ice will form until the liquid
                          reaches 14% alcohol by volume. At 10 below ice will form until it
                          reaches 20%. At 20 below 27% can be made. And, at 30 below

                          33% alcohol can be obtained.

                          Applejack was very popular among the New England colonies.
                          Barrels of apple wine would be set out in sheds during January
                          and February when the temperatures where blistering cold. And,

                          by first thaw it would be ready to drink.

                           

                          As you can see Baker, unless your freezer is -30 F you will not get more then 33% abv regardless of how many times you repeat this process...

                           

                          From: http://www.eckraus.com/wine-making-applejack.html

                           

                          Vino es Veritas,

                          Jim.

                          >Hi, folks,

                          Thanks, M , for your reply; thanks also to Jameson (Message 42087)
                          and duds (Message 42088).

                          What I plan to do in the first place is to freeze the wine (in
                          around 10 x 10-litre buckets) in the walk-in freezer at work. I will
                          take it out and strain out the ice before it is frozen (more or
                          less) solid.
                          I have done this before and to me it seems a lot easier. I have
                          some supermarket vegetable bins a bit bigger than 2' x 1' x 1' high,
                          with 1/8 holes at 1" centres in the bottom, and they make great
                          strainers!

                          I will probably do this twice; I hope in this way to end up with
                          less water but retain almost all of the alcohol and the flavour.
                          ___snip____
                        • gff_stwrt
                          ... like that ... concentrated the alcohol can become at a given temperature: at zero degrees ice will form until the liquid reaches 14% alcohol by volume.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 9, 2008
                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hey Baker,
                            >
                            > what your talking about is called "jacking" - I made applejack
                            like that
                            > when I was in college.
                            >
                            > However, you must have a cold enough temp to get the
                            alcohol up. Read this:
                            >
                            > snip
                            >
                            > > The following will give you an idea of how
                            concentrated the alcohol can become at a given
                            temperature: at zero degrees ice will form until
                            the liquid reaches 14% alcohol by volume.

                            snip

                            > Vino es Veritas,
                            >
                            > Jim.

                            Hi, folks, and thanks Jim, that's really interesting.
                            The freezer is around zero degrees F., but the wine
                            is not very high alcohol, my guess would be around 9%.
                            But say it was 100 litres at 10% ( 10 l. of alcohol
                            and 90 l. of water)and the abv was increased to 15%
                            (it's close and the math is easier):
                            I would still have (in theory and ignoring losses)
                            the same amount of alcohol (ten litres) but much less
                            water and so, less in total to distill.
                            A total of 66 l. of wine @15% alcohol gives the same
                            10 l. of alcohol and 56 l. of water; which is 36 l.
                            less water, and of course 36 l. less total volume.

                            Anyway I think that's right.

                            And hopefully with the same aroma compounds.

                            So I think it will be well worth the effort although
                            The abv will still not be high.

                            Thanks again for the interesting data
                            Regards,

                            The Baker
                          • jamesonbeam1
                            Actually Baker, The flavors are more intensified, since fractional crystal- lization will just take the water out - not take out flavors - as does distilling.
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 9, 2008
                              Actually Baker,

                              The flavors are more intensified, since fractional crystal-
                              lization will just take the water out - not take out flavors - as
                              does distilling.

                              At 0 degrees F you should also be able to get out around 14% abv
                              regardless of what the starting abv is. You can only get more abv
                              out if you go below 0 degrees F. When I crank up my freezer to high
                              and get it around -15 degrees F, i can usually increase the abv from
                              like 12% to 22% or around there - least thats what i calculate from
                              the amount of distillate vs amount of mash using a pot still.

                              Vino es Veritas,
                              Jim.

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:

                              > Hi, folks, and thanks Jim, that's really interesting.
                              > The freezer is around zero degrees F., but the wine
                              > is not very high alcohol, my guess would be around 9%.
                              > But say it was 100 litres at 10% ( 10 l. of alcohol
                              > and 90 l. of water)and the abv was increased to 15%
                              > (it's close and the math is easier):
                              > I would still have (in theory and ignoring losses)
                              > the same amount of alcohol (ten litres) but much less
                              > water and so, less in total to distill.
                              > A total of 66 l. of wine @15% alcohol gives the same
                              > 10 l. of alcohol and 56 l. of water; which is 36 l.
                              > less water, and of course 36 l. less total volume.
                              >
                              > Anyway I think that's right.
                              >
                              > And hopefully with the same aroma compounds.
                              >
                              > So I think it will be well worth the effort although
                              > The abv will still not be high.
                              >
                              > Thanks again for the interesting data
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > The Baker
                              >
                            • gff_stwrt
                              ... snip ... Hi, folks, Thanks again, Jim; that s exactly what I was hoping for. And you probably spotted my subtraction error (below); I meant to say that
                              Message 14 of 14 , Apr 9, 2008
                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Actually Baker,
                                >
                                > The flavors are more intensified, since fractional crystal-
                                > lization will just take the water out - not take out flavors - as
                                > does distilling.

                                snip
                                >
                                > Vino es Veritas,
                                > Jim.

                                Hi, folks,

                                Thanks again, Jim; that's exactly what I was hoping for. And you
                                probably spotted my subtraction error (below); I meant to say that
                                there would be 34 litres less water, not 36 litres!

                                Regards,
                                The Baker
                                >
                                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@> wrote:
                                >
                                > > Hi, folks, and thanks Jim, that's really interesting.
                                > > The freezer is around zero degrees F., but the wine
                                > > is not very high alcohol, my guess would be around 9%.
                                > > But say it was 100 litres at 10% ( 10 l. of alcohol
                                > > and 90 l. of water)and the abv was increased to 15%
                                > > (it's close and the math is easier):
                                > > I would still have (in theory and ignoring losses)
                                > > the same amount of alcohol (ten litres) but much less
                                > > water and so, less in total to distill.
                                > > A total of 66 l. of wine @15% alcohol gives the same
                                > > 10 l. of alcohol and 56 l. of water; which is 36 l.
                                > > less water, and of course 36 l. less total volume.
                                > >
                                > > Anyway I think that's right.
                                > >
                                > > And hopefully with the same aroma compounds.
                                > >
                                > > So I think it will be well worth the effort although
                                > > The abv will still not be high.
                                > >
                                > > Thanks again for the interesting data
                                > > Regards,
                                > >
                                > > The Baker
                                > >
                                >
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