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RE: [Distillers] Re: Making whisky

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  • Robert Hubble
    Well, *this* should produce a lively thread, especially among the potstillers.Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller To: Distillers@yahoogroups.comFrom:
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 1, 2008
      Well, *this* should produce a lively thread, especially among the potstillers.

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      From: larry@...
      Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:03:02 -0600
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Making whisky

      At 04:13 PM 03/01/2008, you wrote:
      > Depending on the abv of you mash and input temp, your stripping runs
      > should only run about 50
      >to 55% for the low wines (least my little pot still does.)

      %ABV of the mash isn't related at all to %ABV of the output.

      A 2% mash would produce the exact same output percentage as a 20% wash...
      The 20% wash would just make ten times as much, but at the same %ABV.




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    • jamesonbeam1
      Sigh Zymurgy Bob, Looks like folk such as us are in the wrong world here... Maybe they should change the name of this forum to Distillers - For Reflux
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 1, 2008
        Sigh Zymurgy Bob,

        Looks like folk such as us are in the wrong world here... Maybe
        they should change the name of this forum to "Distillers - For Reflux
        Beverage Ethanol Distillers" :(:(:(

        Vino es Veritas,
        Jim.

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > Well, *this* should produce a lively thread, especially among the
        potstillers.Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
        >
        >
        > To: Distillers@...: larry@...: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:03:02 -
        0600Subject: [Distillers] Re: Making whisky
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > At 04:13 PM 03/01/2008, you wrote:> Depending on the abv of you
        mash and input temp, your stripping runs > should only run about
        50>to 55% for the low wines (least my little pot still does.)%ABV of
        the mash isn't related at all to %ABV of the output.A 2% mash would
        produce the exact same output percentage as a 20% wash... The 20%
        wash would just make ten times as much, but at the same %ABV.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You
        IM, we give.
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        >
      • jamesonbeam1
        Welp Hot Dang Larry, Guess that blows everything ive ever know about pot stills, and got to gits me one of them thar stills your using. Guess I also have to
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 1, 2008
          Welp Hot Dang Larry,

          Guess that blows everything ive ever know about pot stills, and got to
          gits me one of them thar stills your using. Guess I also have to
          forget everything ive learned on HomeDistillers too - especially on
          pot
          still purity and Tony's calculator at

          http://homedistiller.org/pot_calc.htm ....

          Dang, used to rely on that sucker all the time, cause it tells me 20
          liters of 20% abv wash will give me 1166 mL of 67% abv in 20 minutes,
          whereas 20 liters of 2% abv wash would only give me 679 mL of 15%
          after
          20 minutes.... Guess Tony dont know nothin about pot stillin' either
          lol.

          Vino es Veritas,
          Jim.

          PS. Larry, forgets what ya know about reflux stills and read up on
          pot stills :):):).



          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Larry Collins <larry@...> wrote:
          >
          > At 04:13 PM 03/01/2008, you wrote:
          > > Depending on the abv of you mash and input temp, your stripping
          runs
          > > should only run about 50
          > >to 55% for the low wines (least my little pot still does.)
          >
          > %ABV of the mash isn't related at all to %ABV of the output.
          >
          > A 2% mash would produce the exact same output percentage as a 20%
          wash...
          > The 20% wash would just make ten times as much, but at the same %
          ABV.
          >
        • duds2u
          I ve got me a pot and I ve got me a couple of Bok s. Pot is for whisky (no e ) and Boks are for neutral. However, in saying that there should be no problem in
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 1, 2008
            I've got me a pot and I've got me a couple of Bok's. Pot is for
            whisky (no "e") and Boks are for neutral.

            However, in saying that there should be no problem in making
            flavoured spirits with an insulated unpacked column with any of the
            Bokabob designed still heads. You just have to make the right cuts.
            I haven't done it but I cannot see why you could not.

            The reason I say insulated unpacked column is because you want to
            reduce the reflux to retain the flavours. Remember, that with a still
            output of over 80% ABV you lose most of the flavour. I have a 400 mm
            column on my pot still and I insulate that because I double distil
            and am looking for flavour in my whisky's.
            Cheers
            Mal T.



            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hello Peter,
            > I am not familiar with the 2 cup design but I am with the slant
            plate
            > design and making whiskey with it. Jim is correct. Ditch the
            > packing. It strips most if not all of the flavor and you will never
            > get the output ABV below 90%. The packing causes too much reflux.
            If
            > you have a needle valve to control output and reflux, set it to
            about
            > 10-15ml/minute for your spirit run. This should result in an ABV of
            > 78-82%. With proper use of the needle valve it is possible to
            achieve
            > 75-80%abv in a single run without packing you just have to collect
            > very slowly and pay very close attention to your cuts. I have found
            > that 2 runs is the way to go.
            >
            > Mason
            >
          • Harry
            Mssrs. McCabe & Theile musta been talking through their hats. :) Slainte! regards Harry http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 2, 2008
              Mssrs. McCabe & Theile musta been talking through their hats.  :)
               
              Slainte!
              regards Harry
              =======================================

              Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
              Well, *this* should produce a lively thread, especially among the potstillers.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


              To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
              From: larry@traditionmusi c.com
              Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:03:02 -0600
              Subject: [Distillers] Re: Making whisky

              At 04:13 PM 03/01/2008, you wrote:
              > Depending on the abv of you mash and input temp, your stripping runs
              > should only run about 50
              >to 55% for the low wines (least my little pot still does.)

              %ABV of the mash isn't related at all to %ABV of the output.

              A 2% mash would produce the exact same output percentage as a 20% wash...
              The 20% wash would just make ten times as much, but at the same %ABV.




              Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more.


              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

            • peter442737
              Hi Mason The 3 stripping runs were done without the packing and they were fine they produced 50% no problem. In the final run I tried to make the cuts as per
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 2, 2008
                Hi Mason
                The 3 stripping runs were done without the packing and they were fine
                they produced 50% no problem. In the final run I tried to make the
                cuts as per Smiley's Corn book but obviously failed miserably. The
                Two Cup Bok still is great. No probs with that can produce 95%
                fine. I think like you say I will have to try without packing.
                Worked out the ratios of the cuts from the Corn Book and it did seem
                that the smell and the taste had guided me in the right direction.
                Ah well thats inexperience for you. Will try again.
                Thanks PC


                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "duds2u" <taylormc@...> wrote:
                >
                > I've got me a pot and I've got me a couple of Bok's. Pot is for
                > whisky (no "e") and Boks are for neutral.
                >
                > However, in saying that there should be no problem in making
                > flavoured spirits with an insulated unpacked column with any of the
                > Bokabob designed still heads. You just have to make the right cuts.
                > I haven't done it but I cannot see why you could not.
                >
                > The reason I say insulated unpacked column is because you want to
                > reduce the reflux to retain the flavours. Remember, that with a
                still
                > output of over 80% ABV you lose most of the flavour. I have a 400
                mm
                > column on my pot still and I insulate that because I double distil
                > and am looking for flavour in my whisky's.
                > Cheers
                > Mal T.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Peter,
                > > I am not familiar with the 2 cup design but I am with the slant
                > plate
                > > design and making whiskey with it. Jim is correct. Ditch the
                > > packing. It strips most if not all of the flavor and you will
                never
                > > get the output ABV below 90%. The packing causes too much
                reflux.
                > If
                > > you have a needle valve to control output and reflux, set it to
                > about
                > > 10-15ml/minute for your spirit run. This should result in an ABV
                of
                > > 78-82%. With proper use of the needle valve it is possible to
                > achieve
                > > 75-80%abv in a single run without packing you just have to collect
                > > very slowly and pay very close attention to your cuts. I have
                found
                > > that 2 runs is the way to go.
                > >
                > > Mason
                > >
                >
              • Robert Hubble
                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller ________________________________ To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com From: jamesonbeam1@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 03:48:53
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 2, 2008
                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller



                  ________________________________

                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  From: jamesonbeam1@...
                  Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 03:48:53 +0000
                  Subject: [Distillers] Re: Making whisky




                  Hey, Jim,

                  I hear ya, but I'm ok with the fact that some large percentage of us are using
                  whiz-bang engineering to produce what's essentially V2 rocket fuel. It's just that
                  it seems like a whole lot of work to make something I don't want; vodka is my
                  *least* favorite booze. True, I use my "neutral" stuff to make gin and liqueurs,
                  but mostly I can get that from redistilled feints.

                  The only times the refluxers get just a *bit* of my goat is when they assume we
                  are all refluxers, and that it's the *only* sensible thing to do.

                  Also it cracks me up to hear that, even when tuned to the gills to produce the
                  azeotrope, some have to carbon filter to remove bad flavors. My hearts, and I'll
                  bet yours also, are smooth and sweet right out of the condenser, with *zero*
                  bad flavors, even if they*do* get better with time, oxygen, and oak. I don't
                  know how many times I've had newbies with me on a still run, especially a spirit
                  run, express amazement at how that white stuff at the outlet compares so well
                  with their favorite booze.

                  So, let's just suffer the slings and arrows, and tip a glass of that gorgeous
                  brown stuff to each other.

                  Here's lookin' up yer old address.

                  Zymurgy Bob,
                  a simple potstiller


                  Sigh Zymurgy Bob,

                  Looks like folk such as us are in the wrong world here... Maybe
                  they should change the name of this forum to "Distillers - For Reflux
                  Beverage Ethanol Distillers" :(:(:(

                  Vino es Veritas,
                  Jim.

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Well, *this* should produce a lively thread, especially among the
                  potstillers.Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                  >
                  >
                  > To: Distillers@...: larry@...: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:03:02 -
                  0600Subject: [Distillers] Re: Making whisky
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > At 04:13 PM 03/01/2008, you wrote:> Depending on the abv of you
                  mash and input temp, your stripping runs> should only run about
                  50>to 55% for the low wines (least my little pot still does.)%ABV of
                  the mash isn't related at all to %ABV of the output.A 2% mash would
                  produce the exact same output percentage as a 20% wash...

                  ----snip----






                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix".
                  http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx
                • toddk63
                  I run a 48 BOK as a pot still for my corn. I leave just a couple of scrubbers at the top ( about 6 to 8 of scrubbers). For the strip, I run it wide open
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 2, 2008
                    I run a 48" BOK as a pot still for my corn. I leave just a couple of
                    scrubbers at the top ( about 6 to 8" of scrubbers). For the strip, I
                    run it wide open and about 3200W (measured at the condenser) until
                    about 211°F at the top. The strip cuts the volume and increases
                    strength 4x. Theoretical is about 3x to give you an idea of any
                    natural reflux going on. For the spirit run, same hardware setup. Run
                    it about half the power as the strip (1600W). I may pinch the
                    off-take valve back a bit just for the foreshots, then open it wide
                    and just watch my cuts. No intentional reflux...none! This run brings
                    my 30% low wines up to about 75% in the main cut.

                    So lose all but a bit of packing and leave that off take valve open
                    and you'll be fine.

                    I admire and respect Smiley for much of his book on corn whiskey, but
                    when it comes to his method of reflux still and cuts, I never could do
                    it either. So I tried simple pot stilling and have never gone back.

                    Good Luck,

                    Todd K.



                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "peter442737" <peter.coleman20@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Mason
                    > The 3 stripping runs were done without the packing and they were fine
                    > they produced 50% no problem. In the final run I tried to make the
                    > cuts as per Smiley's Corn book but obviously failed miserably. The
                    > Two Cup Bok still is great. No probs with that can produce 95%
                    > fine. I think like you say I will have to try without packing.
                    > Worked out the ratios of the cuts from the Corn Book and it did seem
                    > that the smell and the taste had guided me in the right direction.
                    > Ah well thats inexperience for you. Will try again.
                    > Thanks PC
                    >
                    >
                  • jamesonbeam1
                    In 100% agreement there Bob, I always mix alot of heads in with the middle run for the right taste. Its just kinda sad though that a few folks here dont
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 2, 2008
                      In 100% agreement there Bob,

                      I always mix alot of heads in with the middle run for the right taste.

                      Its just kinda sad though that a few folks here dont understand or
                      appreciate some of the benifits of them "ancient, old fashioned,
                      simple pot stills".

                      ToddK, pretty much stated it in the previous posting on this subject:

                      "I admire and respect Smiley for much of his book on corn whiskey,
                      but when it comes to his method of reflux still and cuts, I never
                      could do it either. So I tried simple pot stilling and have never
                      gone back.

                      Good Luck,
                      Todd K."

                      BTW, my father was in the Navy in WWII and used to tell stories of
                      how the sailors would bribe them submariners for their
                      famous "torpedo juice" (believe it was the Type 42s that ran off of
                      ethanol), mix it with orange drink powder and have "TP parties" lol.

                      A Votra Sante Aussi.

                      Vino es Veritas,
                      Jim.


                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...>
                      wrote:
                      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: jamesonbeam1@...
                      > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 03:48:53 +0000
                      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Making whisky
                      >
                      > Hey, Jim,
                      >
                      > I hear ya, but I'm ok with the fact that some large percentage of
                      us are using
                      > whiz-bang engineering to produce what's essentially V2 rocket fuel.
                      It's just that
                      > it seems like a whole lot of work to make something I don't want;
                      vodka is my
                      > *least* favorite booze. True, I use my "neutral" stuff to make gin
                      and liqueurs,
                      > but mostly I can get that from redistilled feints.
                      >
                      > The only times the refluxers get just a *bit* of my goat is when
                      they assume we
                      > are all refluxers, and that it's the *only* sensible thing to do.
                      >
                      > Also it cracks me up to hear that, even when tuned to the gills to
                      produce the
                      > azeotrope, some have to carbon filter to remove bad flavors. My
                      hearts, and I'll
                      > bet yours also, are smooth and sweet right out of the condenser,
                      with *zero*
                      > bad flavors, even if they*do* get better with time, oxygen, and
                      oak. I don't
                      > know how many times I've had newbies with me on a still run,
                      especially a spirit
                      > run, express amazement at how that white stuff at the outlet
                      compares so well
                      > with their favorite booze.
                      >
                      > So, let's just suffer the slings and arrows, and tip a glass of
                      that gorgeous
                      > brown stuff to each other.
                      >
                      > Here's lookin' up yer old address.
                      >
                      > Zymurgy Bob,
                      > a simple potstiller
                      >
                      >
                      > Sigh Zymurgy Bob,
                      >
                      > Looks like folk such as us are in the wrong world here... Maybe
                      > they should change the name of this forum to "Distillers - For
                      Reflux
                      > Beverage Ethanol Distillers" :(:(:(
                      >
                      > Vino es Veritas,
                      > Jim.
                      >
                    • abbababbaccc
                      I ve noticed this too and it makes me wonder, is heads cut really necessary at all? Now those traditonal distilleries in Scotland recycle their heads over and
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 2, 2008
                        I've noticed this too and it makes me wonder, is heads cut really
                        necessary at all? Now those traditonal distilleries in Scotland
                        recycle their heads over and over again. Eventually they should get
                        so concentrated with lower boiling point components that in practise
                        all the stuff from the mash gets to the middle cut. Of course the
                        final product won't have that taste as lot's of heads from the
                        whiskey evaporates as angels share. As we all know low temperature
                        evaporation hits heads components the hardest. Another thing is that
                        the oak itself converts many unwanted congeners to more palatable
                        compunds.

                        This made me remember, I have somewhere two quarts of whiskey on oak
                        that I madde without the heads cut. I may have to sample that one of
                        these days, maybe even apply the low temperature evaporation
                        principle to that and see how it turns out.

                        Cheers, Riku

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I always mix alot of heads in with the middle run for the right
                        taste.
                        >
                        > >
                      • duds2u
                        If my merory serves me correctly the orange juice powder was called limers . Tasted like shite but would overpower any known to man flavour that sailors
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008
                          If my merory serves me correctly the orange juice powder was
                          called "limers". Tasted like "shite" but would overpower "any known to
                          man" flavour that sailors would mix it with.
                          Cheers
                          Mal T.

                          BTW, my father was in the Navy in WWII and used to tell stories of
                          > how the sailors would bribe them submariners for their
                          > famous "torpedo juice" (believe it was the Type 42s that ran off of
                          > ethanol), mix it with orange drink powder and have "TP parties" lol.
                          >
                          > A Votra Sante Aussi.
                          >
                          > Vino es Veritas,
                          > Jim.
                          >
                        • duds2u
                          Take a dram of Glenmorangie and I defy anyone that has not been making their own Whisky for a period of time to say that there is not an acetone (read - heads
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008
                            Take a dram of Glenmorangie and I defy anyone that has not been
                            making their own Whisky for a period of time to say that there is not
                            an acetone (read - heads flavour) as a subtle flavour adjunct.

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I've noticed this too and it makes me wonder, is heads cut really
                            > necessary at all? Now those traditonal distilleries in Scotland
                            > recycle their heads over and over again. Eventually they should get
                            > so concentrated with lower boiling point components that in
                            practise
                            > all the stuff from the mash gets to the middle cut. Of course the
                            > final product won't have that taste as lot's of heads from the
                            > whiskey evaporates as angels share. As we all know low temperature
                            > evaporation hits heads components the hardest. Another thing is
                            that
                            > the oak itself converts many unwanted congeners to more palatable
                            > compunds.
                            >
                            > This made me remember, I have somewhere two quarts of whiskey on
                            oak
                            > that I madde without the heads cut. I may have to sample that one
                            of
                            > these days, maybe even apply the low temperature evaporation
                            > principle to that and see how it turns out.
                            >
                            > Cheers, Riku
                            >
                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I always mix alot of heads in with the middle run for the right
                            > taste.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            >
                          • duds2u
                            Sorry Members but somehow I managed to split the reply post. Bugger Cheers Mal T.
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008
                              Sorry Members but somehow I managed to split the reply post.
                              Bugger
                              Cheers
                              Mal T.
                            • mavnkaf
                              Harry, your a smart ass!! And I like it,.. just those two names opened a whole lot of reading for free, no illegal stuff here. I like your way of thinking.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008
                                Harry, your a smart ass!! And I like it,.. just those two names
                                opened a whole lot of reading for free, no illegal stuff here. I like
                                your way of thinking. Just one link I found which I'm trying to get my
                                head around.

                                http://tinyurl.com/ynn7wh

                                My head hurts!!

                                Cheer

                                Marc


                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Mssrs. McCabe & Theile musta been talking through their hats. :)
                                >
                                > Slainte!
                                > regards Harry
                                > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                > =======================================
                              • Sherman
                                Yes the liquid vapor equilibrium is hard to understand. I made a graph using some equations from HD that gives a practical application of that concept as
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008
                                  Yes the liquid vapor equilibrium is hard to understand.
                                  I made a graph using some equations from HD that gives a practical
                                  application of that concept as related to ethanol and water.
                                  here is an example with instructions.
                                  http://tinyurl.com/ytxwre
                                  here is the graph in F http://tinyurl.com/28xnt9
                                  and one in C http://tinyurl.com/ywfw2l



                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Harry, your a smart ass!! And I like it,.. just those two names
                                  > opened a whole lot of reading for free, no illegal stuff here. I like
                                  > your way of thinking. Just one link I found which I'm trying to get my
                                  > head around.
                                  >
                                  > http://tinyurl.com/ynn7wh
                                  >
                                  > My head hurts!!
                                  >
                                  > Cheer
                                  >
                                  > Marc
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Harry <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Mssrs. McCabe & Theile musta been talking through their hats. :)
                                  > >
                                  > > Slainte!
                                  > > regards Harry
                                  > > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                  > > =======================================
                                  >
                                • mavnkaf
                                  Thanks Sherman, Thats not the only thing that is confusing me at the moment. I m trying to work out the best way to use a 1 inch full bore ball valve in a
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008
                                    Thanks Sherman,

                                    Thats not the only thing that is confusing me at the moment. I'm
                                    trying to work out the best way to use a 1 inch full bore ball valve
                                    in a side draft arm VM still?

                                    I better post that in a thread of it own:))

                                    Cheers
                                    Marc

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yes the liquid vapor equilibrium is hard to understand.
                                    > I made a graph using some equations from HD that gives a practical
                                    > application of that concept as related to ethanol and water.
                                    > here is an example with instructions.
                                    > http://tinyurl.com/ytxwre
                                    > here is the graph in F http://tinyurl.com/28xnt9
                                    > and one in C http://tinyurl.com/ywfw2l
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Harry, your a smart ass!! And I like it,.. just those two names
                                    > > opened a whole lot of reading for free, no illegal stuff here. I
                                    like
                                    > > your way of thinking. Just one link I found which I'm trying to
                                    get my
                                    > > head around.
                                    > >
                                    > > http://tinyurl.com/ynn7wh
                                    > >
                                    > > My head hurts!!
                                    > >
                                    > > Cheer
                                    > >
                                    > > Marc
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Harry <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Mssrs. McCabe & Theile musta been talking through their
                                    hats. :)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Slainte!
                                    > > > regards Harry
                                    > > > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                    > > > =======================================
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Harry
                                    ... ... Good charts, Sherman. That shows the result of one (1) simple distillation with a given starting mash percentage (proving
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008


                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Yes the liquid vapor equilibrium is hard to understand.
                                      > I made a graph using some equations from HD that gives a practical
                                      > application of that concept as related to ethanol and water.
                                      > here is an example with instructions.
                                      > http://tinyurl.com/ytxwre
                                      > here is the graph in F http://tinyurl.com/28xnt9
                                      > and one in C http://tinyurl.com/ywfw2l

                                       

                                      Good charts, Sherman.  That shows the result of one (1) simple distillation with a given starting mash percentage (proving that mash %age is relevant).

                                      Now draw in a second, and third, and fourth set of lines using the resulting yield strength of each simple distillation (in the interests of education, I temporarily borrowed your diagram to illustrate, Sherman.  Hope you don't mind).

                                       

                                       

                                      What you have is the beginnings of a McCabe-Thiele diagram.  It begins to look like a flight of stairs.  Each 'step' is a simple distillation.  Also equivalent to a 'theoretical plate'.  See where this is going?

                                      It takes more & more 'plates' (simple distillations) which are closer & closer together in terms of starting point to yield strength, to increase the ethanol percentage and eventually arrive at azeotrope.

                                      If you count the 'plates' (steps), that's how many you need in a plate or tray column (plus a few extra to allow for inefficiencies).  For packed columns, other formulae are used to arrive at an amount and height of packing aka HETP or Height Equivalent of each Theoretical Plate.

                                      As you can see, most of the gains are at the low number of distillations (2 or 3).  After that, it becomes a merry-go-round of inputting more energy for not much gain.  Thus two runs in a pot still is usually sufficient for most purposes (brown spirits).  But you need to go all the way if you want purity for Grain Neutral Spirits (GNS) or vodka.

                                      This might help people get a handle on why we build our various stills (pot and reflux/fractioning) like we do (see Jim?  We're not just a 'reflux' group).  =P~

                                      HTH

                                      Slainte!
                                      regards Harry
                                      http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/

                                    • Harry
                                      So, now that you ve digested that little bit of info on reading charts, let s put it to something really worthwhile, particularly for pot distillers (you with
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008

                                        So, now that you've digested that little bit of info on reading charts, let's put it to something really worthwhile, particularly for pot distillers (you with me Jim?)

                                        Use such a chart to work out what you should dilute your second run down to, to recover hearts at a pre-determined strength (ain't that neat?)

                                        All you gotta do is work backwards & draw in the necessary lines.  To illustrate (again with Sherman's base graph)...


                                        It's not absolutely accurate, because you will have small amounts of heads & tails included, but it is close enough to use as a reliable guide or 'rule-of-thumb'.

                                        If you want to know a whole lot more about the why's or advantages of diluting the still charge, have a read of my paper in the Library...
                                        http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/

                                         

                                        HTH
                                         
                                        Slainte!
                                        regards Harry
                                        http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/

                                      • duds2u
                                        I think a light just came on for me. Thanks Harry. I had read that chart a number of times and had never considered using it in reverse to work out a dilution
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008
                                          I think a light just came on for me.
                                          Thanks Harry. I had read that chart a number of times and had never
                                          considered using it in reverse to work out a dilution to give me a
                                          specified final ABV%.
                                          I just happen to have something fermenting in the shed that will get
                                          a slightly different treatment to my previous efforts.
                                          It will be interesting to taste the results.

                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > So, now that you've digested that little bit of info on reading
                                          charts,
                                          > let's put it to something really worthwhile, particularly for pot
                                          > distillers (you with me Jim?)
                                          >
                                          > Use such a chart to work out what you should dilute your second run
                                          down
                                          > to, to recover hearts at a pre-determined strength (ain't that
                                          neat?)
                                          >
                                          > All you gotta do is work backwards & draw in the necessary lines.
                                          To
                                          > illustrate (again with Sherman's base graph)...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > It's not absolutely accurate, because you will have small amounts of
                                          > heads & tails included, but it is close enough to use as a reliable
                                          > guide or 'rule-of-thumb'.
                                          >
                                          > If you want to know a whole lot more about the why's or advantages
                                          of
                                          > diluting the still charge, have a read of my paper in the Library...
                                          > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/
                                          > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > HTH
                                          >
                                          > Slainte!
                                          > regards Harry
                                          > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                          > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                                          >
                                        • gff_stwrt
                                          Hi, Todd and Peter, hi folks, Todd, can you tell me, is your Bokakob still the slant plate one or another of his designs? And have you used a two-inch column?
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008
                                            Hi, Todd and Peter, hi folks,

                                            Todd, can you tell me, is your Bokakob still the slant plate one
                                            or another of his designs?

                                            And have you used a two-inch column?

                                            I am thinking of making the slant plate one some day, after I
                                            get better at operating my pot still.

                                            And I am thinking of using a small (maybe ten imperial gallons,
                                            which I think is fortyseven litres) hot-water system boiler for my
                                            pot still, instead of the liquid propane gas one I use now. Perhaps
                                            the two-inch column I use now is not big enough for the 3,6oo watt
                                            element.

                                            If so I will either have to use a bigger-diameter column, or
                                            replace the element with a lower-rated one.

                                            What do you more experienced distillers think?



                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "toddk63" <toddk63@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I run a 48" BOK as a pot still for my corn. I leave just a couple
                                            of
                                            > scrubbers at the top ( about 6 to 8" of scrubbers). For the
                                            strip, I
                                            > run it wide open and about 3200W (measured at the condenser) until
                                            > about 211°F at the top. The strip cuts the volume and increases
                                            > strength 4x. Theoretical is about 3x to give you an idea of any
                                            > natural reflux going on. For the spirit run, same hardware setup.
                                            Run
                                            > it about half the power as the strip (1600W). I may pinch the
                                            > off-take valve back a bit just for the foreshots, then open it wide
                                            > and just watch my cuts. No intentional reflux...none! This run
                                            brings
                                            > my 30% low wines up to about 75% in the main cut.
                                            >
                                            > So lose all but a bit of packing and leave that off take valve open
                                            > and you'll be fine.
                                            >
                                            > I admire and respect Smiley for much of his book on corn whiskey,
                                            but
                                            > when it comes to his method of reflux still and cuts, I never
                                            could do
                                            > it either. So I tried simple pot stilling and have never gone
                                            back.
                                            >
                                            > Good Luck,
                                            >
                                            > Todd K.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "peter442737" <peter.coleman20@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi Mason
                                            > > The 3 stripping runs were done without the packing and they were
                                            fine
                                            > > they produced 50% no problem. In the final run I tried to make
                                            the
                                            > > cuts as per Smiley's Corn book but obviously failed miserably.
                                            The
                                            > > Two Cup Bok still is great. No probs with that can produce 95%
                                            > > fine. I think like you say I will have to try without packing.
                                            > > Worked out the ratios of the cuts from the Corn Book and it did
                                            seem
                                            > > that the smell and the taste had guided me in the right
                                            direction.
                                            > > Ah well thats inexperience for you. Will try again.
                                            > > Thanks PC
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • jamesonbeam1
                                            Yes Harry, Right with ya boss. As a matter of fact, I studied this chart way before I found this forum and started distilling and posting here. I found
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008

                                              Yes  Harry,

                                              Right with ya boss.  As a matter of fact, I studied this chart way before I found this forum and started distilling and  posting here.  I found this by accident, (not as concise of course)  and the theory behind it on a site of  Tony Ackland's - HomeDistllers.com: http://homedistiller.org/theory.htm#strong 

                                              It took me a while, but finally figured out what  them red and blue lines ment.  However, being the lazy  SOB (self-made of course :) distiller that i am, ended up using that self-calculating table below it, instead of trying to extrapolate the lines.

                                              I also studied the theory behind reflux still design and theoretical plates (believe it was developed by McCabe-Thiele)  at: http://homedistiller.org/refluxdesign.htm and finally figured out that a pot still is one plate, and each additional plate equals a second, third or 4th distillation on a pot still, till azerotrope is reached (impossible on a pot still of course).

                                              (and BTW Sherman and Harry, what a great job ya'll did on improving and connotating that chart, im really impressed - wish i'd had it a year ago - would a kept me sober a bit longer and been so much simpler :):):).

                                              Im very sorry if  offending anyone by my comments, but the point I was trying to make, is that i still cant understand why folks would do stripping runs on a reflux still, without taking the packing out and running it wide open like a pot still, then doing the spirits run with cuts the same way (as Todd K stated), and I appologize.

                                              Vino es Veritas,

                                              Jim.

                                               

                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > So, now that you've digested that little bit of info on reading charts,
                                              > let's put it to something really worthwhile, particularly for pot
                                              > distillers (you with me Jim?)
                                              >
                                              > Use such a chart to work out what you should dilute your second run down
                                              > to, to recover hearts at a pre-determined strength (ain't that neat?)
                                              >
                                              > All you gotta do is work backwards & draw in the necessary lines. To
                                              > illustrate (again with Sherman's base graph)...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > It's not absolutely accurate, because you will have small amounts of
                                              > heads & tails included, but it is close enough to use as a reliable
                                              > guide or 'rule-of-thumb'.
                                              >
                                              > If you want to know a whole lot more about the why's or advantages of
                                              > diluting the still charge, have a read of my paper in the Library...
                                              > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/
                                              > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > HTH
                                              >
                                              > Slainte!
                                              > regards Harry
                                              > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                              > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                                              >

                                            • Harry
                                              ... No offence taken Jim, so you ve got nothing to apologise for. There s too much fun happening here for molecule-sized things to be rocking the boat. Re
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 3, 2008
                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Im very sorry if offending anyone by my comments, but the point I was
                                                > trying to make, is that i still cant understand why folks would do
                                                > stripping runs on a reflux still, without taking the packing out and
                                                > running it wide open like a pot still, then doing the spirits run with
                                                > cuts the same way (as Todd K stated), and I appologize.
                                                >
                                                > Vino es Veritas,
                                                >
                                                > Jim.



                                                No offence taken Jim, so you've got nothing to apologise for. There's
                                                too much fun happening here for molecule-sized things to be rocking the
                                                boat.

                                                Re stripping & reflux stills: The main reason for doing it (or should
                                                be) is to rapidly separate most of the water, AND any residual
                                                unfermented sugars (some sugars, like dextrins, are non-fermentable
                                                normally as you will be aware). If you were to reflux these for a
                                                prolonged period (some reflux stills apply heat for 8-10 hrs or more)
                                                then there's a REAL chance that you'll end up with a burnt taste
                                                through your distillate, which no amount of post-treatment (carbon or
                                                otherwise) will remove. Rapid stripping to separate these non-
                                                fermentables followed by a second slow distillation of the strippate
                                                will always result in an improved (not burnt) product suitable for GNS
                                                or vodkas. Of course if brown spirits is the goal, then a pot still is
                                                a more sensible option, but it can be achieved with a de-tuned reflux
                                                still, in which case the burnt issue might actually be an advantage (as
                                                in some rums).

                                                Hope this explains it.

                                                Slainte!
                                                regards Harry
                                                http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                              • toddk63
                                                Its the SR (Single Reducer) design. Yes 2 column 2 column would be perfect with your 3600W element so long as you have a variac or other temp controller.
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 4, 2008
                                                  Its the SR (Single Reducer) design. Yes 2" column

                                                  2" column would be perfect with your 3600W element so long as you have
                                                  a variac or other temp controller. It may be a bit much without the
                                                  temp controller.

                                                  Todd K.


                                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi, Todd and Peter, hi folks,
                                                  >
                                                  > Todd, can you tell me, is your Bokakob still the slant plate one
                                                  > or another of his designs?
                                                  >
                                                  > And have you used a two-inch column?
                                                  >
                                                  > I am thinking of making the slant plate one some day, after I
                                                  > get better at operating my pot still.
                                                  >
                                                  > And I am thinking of using a small (maybe ten imperial gallons,
                                                  > which I think is fortyseven litres) hot-water system boiler for my
                                                  > pot still, instead of the liquid propane gas one I use now. Perhaps
                                                  > the two-inch column I use now is not big enough for the 3,6oo watt
                                                  > element.
                                                  >
                                                  > If so I will either have to use a bigger-diameter column, or
                                                  > replace the element with a lower-rated one.
                                                  >
                                                  > What do you more experienced distillers think?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
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