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Re: Jackson Crossflow Condensor, was starting over from scratch

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  • Harry
    ... 1/2 ... insulation, ... #1 Sizing the Takeoff Path. When you split a stream of vapour, it will divide according to the diameter of each path that the
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 8, 2008
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      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi All,
      >
      > A couple of questions,
      > 1. Sizing of the VM takeoff to the gate valve and Liebig, is this
      > critical can it be say 1" for the section with the gate valve and
      1/2"
      > and 1" for the Liebig. Suggested length for the Liebig.
      >
      > 2. Harry in any of your articles you don't mention column
      insulation,
      > is it needed?
      >
      > Cheers
      >


      #1 Sizing the Takeoff Path.

      When you split a stream of vapour, it will divide according to the
      diameter of each path that the vapour can follow . IOW if you have
      a 2" column, and a 1" sidepath, the split ratio is NOT 2 to 1 as you
      would expect. It is...

      Area of 2" = Pi x r^2 --> 3.1416 x 1 x 1 = 3.14"

      Area of 1" = Pi x r^2 --> 3.1416 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.79"

      Actual Ratio is 3.14 to 0.79 or nearly 4 to 1

      This means that if you build a column of 2" diameter and a 1" VM
      sidedraft, it will automatically have nominally 4 to 1 reflux, or
      80% reflux and 20% product takeoff.

      If you build it all out of 2" (column and sidedraft) then there will
      be an automatic ratio of 1 to 1 or 50% each, of reflux and product.
      You can then vary this ratio for higher (not lower) reflux by using
      a gate valve on the sidedraft arm to limit the amount of vapour
      entering the sidedraft for product takeoff.



      re Liebig sizing.

      The length of the liebig is directly dependent on the volume of
      vapour that it has to handle in any given timeslice. This volume in
      turn is dependent on the energy input to the column, and the
      refluxing ratio as set by design specs (pipe diameters) and/or
      gatevalve adjustment.
      It's all a matter of balance. For a nominal 1400watt input, you
      should be able to get away with a liebig of around 1" x 0.5" x 24".
      This will give a little margin for variation in vapour feed to the
      final condenser (the liebig). You can also vary the coolant speed
      in the liebig to have further control.



      #2 Column insulation, Is It Needed?

      Whether or not to insulate the column is dependent on several
      things...what product you want(pure white spirits or brown flavoured
      spirits), column materials (stainless or copper), and environment
      (ambient temperatures).

      For neutral white spirits, insulate the column.

      For brown flavoured spirits (whiskies, rums) don't insulate.

      For stainless columns, generally don't insulate (stainless has poor
      heat transfer and heat loss capabilities).

      For copper, generally insulate (high transfer & heat loss
      capabilities). Except in the following circumstances.

      If doing neutral spirits through a copper column, removing the
      insulation will increase the refluxing due to heatloss at the column
      walls, before the vapours reach the overhead condenser. Of course
      this is wasted power, and the same can be achieved by keeping the
      insulation, reducing the power input and increasing the coolant flow
      to the overhead condenser.

      No two stills are the same. Experiment with your rig and decide for
      yourself how you want to operate it. With the info I've given you,
      you will at least have an idea of what to expect and WHY these
      differences affect your end-product.


      HTH
      Slainte!
      regards Harry
    • bursal2
      Harry another question or two, A 2 gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention the cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008
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        Harry another question or two,

        A 2" gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention the
        cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My thinking is no
        but I need to ask. I am trying limit the amount of brass in the system
        and stainless steel blows out cost!

        My thinking is 3' x 2" copper column, packed with copper
        mesh/scrubbers, 2" vapor take off with brass gate valve, 1/2" x 30"
        product tube with a 1" x 24" liebig. Followed by a parrot's beak,I
        don't think I need to go to your shared design of the Ultimate
        Parrot's Beak because of the liebig just above it.

        The head will be as per your design.

        I want to be able to store the column in sections so I think I will
        use 2" joiners, braze the upper side to the column and slightly
        stretch the lower side of the joiner so that I can slide together with
        teflon
        tape and if needed some flour paste.

        Thanks Harry for great design and valuable assistance.

        Cheers

        Bursal
      • Harry
        ... The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the liebig condenser
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008
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          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
          >
          > Harry another question or two,
          >
          > A 2" gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention the
          > cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My thinking is no
          > but I need to ask. I am trying limit the amount of brass in the system
          > and stainless steel blows out cost!
          >
          > My thinking is 3' x 2" copper column, packed with copper
          > mesh/scrubbers, 2" vapor take off with brass gate valve, 1/2" x 30"
          > product tube with a 1" x 24" liebig. Followed by a parrot's beak,I
          > don't think I need to go to your shared design of the Ultimate
          > Parrot's Beak because of the liebig just above it.
          >
          > The head will be as per your design.
          >
          > I want to be able to store the column in sections so I think I will
          > use 2" joiners, braze the upper side to the column and slightly
          > stretch the lower side of the joiner so that I can slide together with
          > teflon  
          > tape and if needed some flour paste.
          >
          > Thanks Harry for great design and valuable assistance.
          >
          > Cheers
          >
          > Bursal
          >

          The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce its opening.  Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the liebig condenser section, a valve will  do little to restrict them.  It would only restrict as a complete shut-off.  Otherwise it's a venturi which only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.

          Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452

          A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh to be placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold surfaces.  Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.

          If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the joiners on the uppermost sections as per below.  Teflon tape the slip-joins.  This will help prevent leakages.  A still column and condensers built like this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime.  Good luck with your build.

          Slainte!
          regards Harry
          http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/


        • Trid
          ... Aye...mine s a break-down modular in a similar vein. I find that condensation along the walls of the column make an adequate seal at joints. I ve never
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008
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            --- Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

            > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the joiners on
            > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins. This
            > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
            > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
            > luck with your build.

            Aye...mine's a break-down modular in a similar vein. I find that condensation
            along the walls of the column make an adequate seal at joints. I've never
            experienced leaking with no additional effort given towards making a seal
            (tested both with the water/visible steam and soap bubble methods).

            Also, a note for clarity (not sure if this is US-centric, or applicable in
            other countries) but what is shown in the illustration labeled as a "union"
            would be called a "coupling" in the states. A union is a two-part threaded
            joiner that seals due to the threaded collar tightening down on the other half.
            This thing:
            http://www.doityourself.com/invt/2256733
            Aside: that's a link for a 2" union...the price seems incredibly low
            considering current copper prices (I would expect $55.00+)

            Trid
            -
          • abbababbaccc
            One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2 VM column. You do not have to go to 2 takeoff unless you really want to. I m using 20mm takeoff and that s
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
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              One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
              not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
              20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
              neutral stuff.

              Cheers, Riku

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com> ,
              > "bursal2" <bursal@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Harry another question or two,
              > >
              > > A 2" gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention
              the
              > > cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My thinking
              is no
              > > but I need to ask. I am trying limit the amount of brass in the
              system
              > > and stainless steel blows out cost!
              > >
              > > My thinking is 3' x 2" copper column, packed with copper
              > > mesh/scrubbers, 2" vapor take off with brass gate valve, 1/2" x
              30"
              > > product tube with a 1" x 24" liebig. Followed by a parrot's
              beak,I
              > > don't think I need to go to your shared design of the Ultimate
              > > Parrot's Beak because of the liebig just above it.
              > >
              > > The head will be as per your design.
              > >
              > > I want to be able to store the column in sections so I think I
              will
              > > use 2" joiners, braze the upper side to the column and slightly
              > > stretch the lower side of the joiner so that I can slide
              together with
              > > teflon
              > > tape and if needed some flour paste.
              > >
              > > Thanks Harry for great design and valuable assistance.
              > >
              > > Cheers
              > >
              > > Bursal
              > >
              >
              > The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to
              reduce
              > its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the
              liebig
              > condenser section, a valve will do little to restrict them. It
              would
              > only restrict as a complete shut-off. Otherwise it's a venturi
              which
              > only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.
              >
              > Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this
              > message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452
              >
              > A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh
              to be
              > placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold
              surfaces.
              > Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.
              >
              > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the
              joiners on
              > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins.
              This
              > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built
              like
              > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime.
              Good
              > luck with your build.
              >
              > Slainte!
              > regards Harry
              > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
              > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
              >
            • br0nwyn1
              ... Would a 1 take off still work for a 3 vm column?
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
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                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                > not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                > 20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                > neutral stuff.
                >
                > Cheers, Riku
                >



                Would a 1" take off still work for a 3" vm column?
              • abbababbaccc
                Haven t tried that but I d say it works, especially if you introduce a vertical drop before the condenser. This would create an inverse chimney effect which
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
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                  Haven't tried that but I'd say it works, especially if you introduce a
                  vertical drop before the condenser. This would create an inverse
                  chimney effect which would mean that the valve in practise becomes a
                  throttle body making the area ratio less relevant.

                  Cheers, Riku

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "br0nwyn1" <jmcallister@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                  > > not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                  > > 20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                  > > neutral stuff.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers, Riku
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Would a 1" take off still work for a 3" vm column?
                  >
                • bursal2
                  ... Thanks Harry, I thought there was good reason for placing the gate valve on the vapour takeoff, now I know. The liebig will have a ½ bore and the water
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
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                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    >
                    > The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce
                    > its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the liebig
                    > condenser section, a valve will do little to restrict them. It would
                    > only restrict as a complete shut-off. Otherwise it's a venturi which
                    > only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.
                    >
                    > Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this
                    > message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452
                    >
                    > A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh to be
                    > placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold surfaces.
                    > Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.
                    >
                    > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the joiners on
                    > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins. This
                    > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                    > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                    > luck with your build.
                    >
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry
                    > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                    > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                    >
                    Thanks Harry, I thought there was good reason for placing the gate
                    valve on the vapour takeoff, now I know.

                    The liebig will have a ½" bore and the water jacket will be 1", sorry
                    my terminology was confusing.

                    Yes, I am aware of the problems with brass and the need pickling. The
                    problem is S/S is very expensive and I would not use 2nd hand gate
                    valves, either brass or S/S because you don't know what has been
                    through them. I will not use 2nd hand brass for the same reason.

                    Thanks for diagram of the joins, I was going to put the brazed joint
                    on the wrong side.

                    Cheers
                    Bursal
                  • bursal2
                    ... joiners on ... This ... condensation ... never ... seal ... applicable in ... union ... threaded ... other half. ... Yes, I meant coupling not union.
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
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                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the
                      joiners on
                      > > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins.
                      This
                      > > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                      > > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                      > > luck with your build.
                      >
                      > Aye...mine's a break-down modular in a similar vein. I find that
                      condensation
                      > along the walls of the column make an adequate seal at joints. I've
                      never
                      > experienced leaking with no additional effort given towards making a
                      seal
                      > (tested both with the water/visible steam and soap bubble methods).
                      >
                      > Also, a note for clarity (not sure if this is US-centric, or
                      applicable in
                      > other countries) but what is shown in the illustration labeled as a
                      "union"
                      > would be called a "coupling" in the states. A union is a two-part
                      threaded
                      > joiner that seals due to the threaded collar tightening down on the
                      other half.
                      > This thing:
                      > http://www.doityourself.com/invt/2256733
                      > Aside: that's a link for a 2" union...the price seems incredibly low
                      > considering current copper prices (I would expect $55.00+)
                      >
                      > Trid
                      > -
                      >
                      Yes, I meant coupling not union. When I was replying I kept all my
                      measurements in imperial units because I thought many of the readers
                      would be more used to them. Because of my age I can remember the days
                      of inches and feet in Ozland.

                      Cheers
                      Bursal
                    • bursal2
                      ... Thanks,if I could get 1lt per hour at 95.6% of neutral spirit I would be more than happy. Using 1 takes some of the weight off the column and gives it
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
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                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                        > not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                        > 20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                        > neutral stuff.
                        >
                        > Cheers, Riku
                        >
                        Thanks,if I could get 1lt per hour at 95.6% of neutral spirit I would
                        be more than happy. Using 1" takes some of the weight off the column
                        and gives it better balance.

                        Cheers
                        Bursal
                      • bursal2
                        ... liebig ... to be ... surfaces. ... joiners on ... This ... An update and some questions. I managed to find 2 new, 316 3 piece S/S ball valves with PTFE
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 24, 2008
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                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce
                          > > its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the
                          liebig
                          > > condenser section, a valve will do little to restrict them. It would
                          > > only restrict as a complete shut-off. Otherwise it's a venturi which
                          > > only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.
                          > >
                          > > Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this
                          > > message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452
                          > >
                          > > A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh
                          to be
                          > > placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold
                          surfaces.
                          > > Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.
                          > >
                          > > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the
                          joiners on
                          > > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins.
                          This
                          > > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                          > > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                          > > luck with your build.
                          > >
                          > > Slainte!
                          > > regards Harry
                          > > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                          > > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                          > >
                          > Thanks Harry, I thought there was good reason for placing the gate
                          > valve on the vapour takeoff, now I know.
                          >
                          > The liebig will have a ½" bore and the water jacket will be 1", sorry
                          > my terminology was confusing.
                          >
                          > Yes, I am aware of the problems with brass and the need pickling. The
                          > problem is S/S is very expensive and I would not use 2nd hand gate
                          > valves, either brass or S/S because you don't know what has been
                          > through them. I will not use 2nd hand brass for the same reason.
                          >
                          > Thanks for diagram of the joins, I was going to put the brazed joint
                          > on the wrong side.
                          >
                          > Cheers
                          > Bursal
                          >
                          An update and some questions.

                          I managed to find 2 new, 316 3 piece S/S ball valves with PTFE seats,
                          one 2" and the other is 1" for $100 delivered, that's solved the valve
                          problem. Slowly gathering all the copper bits and pieces.

                          Questions:

                          If I want to use the column for beer stripping can I replace the
                          condenser head with a stopper and thermometer, at the top of tee for
                          the vapour takeoff, and remove the copper
                          packing.

                          As I am making the column so that it can be dismantled is there any
                          advantage in using a short column for stripping.

                          Are the following distances critical, if so can you make some
                          recommendations? -

                          From vapour takeoff to condenser.

                          Length of vapour takeoff.

                          I am sure I have seen recommendations for distance for packing from
                          top of boiler and from thermometer but I can't find them, can someone
                          please enlighten me.

                          Thanks
                          Bursal
                        • abbababbaccc
                          ... seats, ... valve ... for ... someone ... Stripping and column packing. Based on my experiments you will get much more concentrated head and slightly more
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 25, 2008
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                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > An update and some questions.
                            >
                            > I managed to find 2 new, 316 3 piece S/S ball valves with PTFE
                            seats,
                            > one 2" and the other is 1" for $100 delivered, that's solved the
                            valve
                            > problem. Slowly gathering all the copper bits and pieces.
                            >
                            > Questions:
                            >
                            > If I want to use the column for beer stripping can I replace the
                            > condenser head with a stopper and thermometer, at the top of tee
                            for
                            > the vapour takeoff, and remove the copper
                            > packing.
                            >
                            > As I am making the column so that it can be dismantled is there any
                            > advantage in using a short column for stripping.
                            >
                            > Are the following distances critical, if so can you make some
                            > recommendations? -
                            >
                            > From vapour takeoff to condenser.
                            >
                            > Length of vapour takeoff.
                            >
                            > I am sure I have seen recommendations for distance for packing from
                            > top of boiler and from thermometer but I can't find them, can
                            someone
                            > please enlighten me.
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            > Bursal

                            Stripping and column packing. Based on my experiments you will get
                            much more concentrated head and slightly more concentrated tails if
                            you leave the packing in and insulate the column. As the column
                            heats up lots of reflux is generated and heads get concentrated.
                            After that heat losses are small and there won't be much reflux
                            which means only little concentration happens. You can increase the
                            reflux by leaning out the insulation but then the speed gets down.

                            Cheers, Riku
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