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RE: [Distillers] Jackson Crossflow Condenser, was starting over from scratch

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  • Robert N
    From what I understand, you are talking about two things. 1) The amount of fluid damned up on the NON-takeoff side. 2) How all the fluid from both
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008

      From what I understand, you are talking about two things.

      1)      The amount of fluid damned up on the NON-takeoff side.

      2)      How all the fluid from both sides would run down the walls as it overflowed back down into the column?  

       

      As to 1) you could build in a slight downward angle towards the take off spigot. It wouldn’t need to be more than a couple of degrees at best and you will probably find the added weight of the spigot and tubing hanging off of the condenser will naturally make the still lean to that side anyway. Or you could add a tube through the tower at the point where the tower enters the condenser. Drill a small hole through this tube so that some fluid can drop back down the tower. However this idea would be very hard to do if soldering.

       

      With the second point you could fit two slanted plates both angled downwards or at the join point of the tower to the condenser, you would have a coupling just below the condenser, place a scrubber in at this point which will have the desired effect. However I tend to agree with Harry on this point, even if it slides down the tower sides, once it hits the packing it will quickly disperse.

       

      A question to Harry, do you have a shield over the thermometer to prevent the liquid dropping onto it, thus giving a slightly cooler temperature reading?

       

      Yours in Spirit

       

      Robert

       

      From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Zapata Vive
      Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 5:59 AM
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Distillers] Jackson Crossflow Condensor, was starting over from scratch

       

      Robert got me thinking about your head now Harry.  And Morgan's got me thinking about the height it would save.  (although my water heater is only about 3.5 feet high)

       

      I've seen it before, but not really studied it.  I'm wondering about channelling with it.  It doesn't seem to direct reflux back to the middle of the column, or does it and I just don't see it?  Is this not as important as I've been lead to believe, or do you have a modification for it?

       

      It also looks like it will have a minimum reflux ratio of about 2:1, right?  Because any condensation on the non-take off side goes back down the column, and any condensation in the middle goes back down the column, so the most you can capture is 1/3, or am I missing something again?  I can't really think of a good way to be able to capture all the product if one wanted to, have you thought that one out by chance?

       

      Do you use this head for flavored runs?  If not, what do you use?

    • Harry
      ... prevent ... Yes. My apologies for not showing it in the previous schematic. The tube that holds the thermometer is actually a cutaway half-tube on the
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert N" <dinks_c@...> wrote:

        >
        > A question to Harry, do you have a shield over the thermometer to prevent
        > the liquid dropping onto it, thus giving a slightly cooler temperature
        > reading?
         
        >
        > Yours in Spirit
         
        > Robert


        Yes.  My apologies for not showing it in the previous schematic.  The tube that holds the thermometer is actually a cutaway half-tube on the inside of the column as per below...

        Slainte!
        regards Harry

      • gff_stwrt
        ... snip A correctly packed and balanced column should only have fully ... snip snip snip ! Hi, Harry, hi folks, So let me think as I put this down....
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008
          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
          >

          snip

          A correctly packed and balanced column should only have fully
          > stripped water as the bottoms product, which returns to the boiler.
          >
          snip snip snip !


          Hi, Harry, hi folks,

          So let me think as I put this down....

          Letting this 'fully stripped water' return to the boiler seems
          incredibly inefficient.

          Suppose I directed the vapour to the side of the column, part-way
          up, instead of mounting the column on the top of the boiler....

          (And I know this idea is not at all original but nobody seems to
          do it!)

          ....and directed this 'fully stripped water' from the base of the
          column THROUGH A PARROT'S BEAK CONTAINING A HYDROMETER so that I
          could be sure I was not losing alcohol, to a collection vessel (or
          for that matter to a drain as long as the hydrometer was carefully
          watched).

          One could then have (as did the alembic stills of the pioneering
          arabs) a reserve tank for the mash, and feed it through a tap to
          the boiler which should
          have a sight glass, another un-original idea perhaps not that often
          used, so that the inflow, which would be very slow anyway so would
          not affect the operation of the boiler, could be matched to outflows
          of product plus water.

          One would then have a continuous or semi-continuous still which
          would save a terrific amount of time now used between batches to
          empty and clean and refill the boiler and wait (the biggest loss of
          time) for the boiler to re-heat. Such a system would use a minimal
          extra amount of energy (particularly easy to do with gas heating) to
          heat the small amount of cool wash entering the boiler, continuously.

          In the case of a pot-still, again as the Arabs used to do, one could
          direct the lyne arm THROUGH the reserve tank for the mash so it is
          pre-heated with what was wasted energy.

          Is ANYBODY already using a system like this? I know I have
          seendiagrams, possibly Harry posted one some time ago.

          It doesn't involve a great deal of extra work if you are going to
          make a still anyway.

          Regards,

          The Baker

          p.s. sorry if a couple of words are run together, my computer has
          decided to munch up what I have already written when I try to
          correct or edit anything and I don't know how to stop it! G.
        • Robert N
          Hi Baker there was a system that you may remember that was on the Australian ABC TV network called The New Inventers one of the inventions showcased was a
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008

            Hi Baker there was a system that you may remember that was on the Australian ABC TV network called “The New Inventers” one of the “inventions” showcased was a still said to distil salt water or effluent laced water etc. Was made of stainless steel and basically it was the boiler on the bottom and a holding tank/condenser above with the off take tube winding through the top tank.

             

            The greatest problem’s, although not insurmountable, with this idea is what happens if the “coolant” gets too hot to cool the product. And of course what happens as the wash empties out toward the end of the run do you top up with water. This then makes it awfully expensive to get the last of the alcohol out.

             

            Cheers

             

            Robert

             

            From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gff_stwrt
            Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 12:34 PM
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Distillers] Re: Jackson Crossflow Condensor, was starting over from scratch

             

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

            >

            snip

            A correctly packed and balanced column should only have fully
            > stripped water as the bottoms product, which returns to the boiler.
            >
            snip snip snip !

            Hi, Harry, hi folks,

            So let me think as I put this down....

            Letting this 'fully stripped water' return to the boiler seems
            incredibly inefficient.

            Suppose I directed the vapour to the side of the column, part-way
            up, instead of mounting the column on the top of the boiler....

            (And I know this idea is not at all original but nobody seems to
            do it!)

            ....and directed this 'fully stripped water' from the base of the
            column THROUGH A PARROT'S BEAK CONTAINING A HYDROMETER so that I
            could be sure I was not losing alcohol, to a collection vessel (or
            for that matter to a drain as long as the hydrometer was carefully
            watched).

            One could then have (as did the alembic stills of the pioneering
            arabs) a reserve tank for the mash, and feed it through a tap to
            the boiler which should
            have a sight glass, another un-original idea perhaps not that often
            used, so that the inflow, which would be very slow anyway so would
            not affect the operation of the boiler, could be matched to outflows
            of product plus water.

            One would then have a continuous or semi-continuous still which
            would save a terrific amount of time now used between batches to
            empty and clean and refill the boiler and wait (the biggest loss of
            time) for the boiler to re-heat. Such a system would use a minimal
            extra amount of energy (particularly easy to do with gas heating) to
            heat the small amount of cool wash entering the boiler, continuously.

            In the case of a pot-still, again as the Arabs used to do, one could
            direct the lyne arm THROUGH the reserve tank for the mash so it is
            pre-heated with what was wasted energy.

            Is ANYBODY already using a system like this? I know I have
            seendiagrams, possibly Harry posted one some time ago.

            It doesn't involve a great deal of extra work if you are going to
            make a still anyway.

            Regards,

            The Baker

          • waljaco
            Preheating the wine? Not the Arabs but the French in Charente province (for cognac). wal
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 5, 2008
              Preheating the wine? Not the Arabs but the French in Charente province
              (for cognac).
              wal
              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
              > >
              >
              > snip
              >
              > A correctly packed and balanced column should only have fully
              > > stripped water as the bottoms product, which returns to the boiler.
              > >
              > snip snip snip !
              >
              >
              > Hi, Harry, hi folks,
              >
              > So let me think as I put this down....
              >
              > Letting this 'fully stripped water' return to the boiler seems
              > incredibly inefficient.
              >
              > Suppose I directed the vapour to the side of the column, part-way
              > up, instead of mounting the column on the top of the boiler....
              >
              > (And I know this idea is not at all original but nobody seems to
              > do it!)
              >
              > ....and directed this 'fully stripped water' from the base of the
              > column THROUGH A PARROT'S BEAK CONTAINING A HYDROMETER so that I
              > could be sure I was not losing alcohol, to a collection vessel (or
              > for that matter to a drain as long as the hydrometer was carefully
              > watched).
              >
              > One could then have (as did the alembic stills of the pioneering
              > arabs) a reserve tank for the mash, and feed it through a tap to
              > the boiler which should
              > have a sight glass, another un-original idea perhaps not that often
              > used, so that the inflow, which would be very slow anyway so would
              > not affect the operation of the boiler, could be matched to outflows
              > of product plus water.
              >
              > One would then have a continuous or semi-continuous still which
              > would save a terrific amount of time now used between batches to
              > empty and clean and refill the boiler and wait (the biggest loss of
              > time) for the boiler to re-heat. Such a system would use a minimal
              > extra amount of energy (particularly easy to do with gas heating) to
              > heat the small amount of cool wash entering the boiler, continuously.
              >
              > In the case of a pot-still, again as the Arabs used to do, one could
              > direct the lyne arm THROUGH the reserve tank for the mash so it is
              > pre-heated with what was wasted energy.
              >
              > Is ANYBODY already using a system like this? I know I have
              > seendiagrams, possibly Harry posted one some time ago.
              >
              > It doesn't involve a great deal of extra work if you are going to
              > make a still anyway.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > The Baker
              >
              > p.s. sorry if a couple of words are run together, my computer has
              > decided to munch up what I have already written when I try to
              > correct or edit anything and I don't know how to stop it! G.
              >
            • Zapata Vive
              Another question for you Harry. For the dam in the head, instead of having a machine shop pinch a piece of pipe, how about using a sheet of copper to braze
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 8, 2008
                Another question for you Harry.
                For the "dam" in the head, instead of having a machine shop pinch a piece of pipe, how about using a sheet of copper to braze in a rim?  I say braze because then you could solder the rest of the "T" fitting without melting it.
                 
                I'm imagining cutting a piece of pipe and flattening it.  This I would solder in to make the damn, attaching it right at the lip of the "T".  I'm also wondering if this dam sheet were slightly oversized downwards and bent inward, making a drip ring so the reflux would be directed at least onto packing and not just down the side wall of the column.
                 
                What do you think?  See any problems?
                 
              • Harry
                ... piece of pipe, how about using a sheet of copper to braze in a rim? I say braze because then you could solder the rest of the T fitting without melting
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 8, 2008


                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Another question for you Harry.
                  > For the "dam" in the head, instead of having a machine shop pinch a piece of pipe, how about using a sheet of copper to braze in a rim?  I say braze because then you could solder the rest of the "T" fitting without melting it.
                  >
                  > I'm imagining cutting a piece of pipe and flattening it.  This I would solder in to make the damn, attaching it right at the lip of the "T".  I'm also wondering if this dam sheet were slightly oversized downwards and bent inward, making a drip ring so the reflux would be directed at least onto packing and not just down the side wall of the column.
                  >
                  > What do you think?  See any problems?
                  >


                  The only problem would be your metalworking skill limitations (if any) and your patience with fiddly work.

                  This design can be adapted to any configuration you wish, while still maintaining the overall concept of unrestricted coolant flow and large capacity condensing.

                  You can do away with the dam altogether if you're running it as a total reflux overhead condenser in a Vapour Management design (Fig.1).

                  The dam is only necessary if you intend to take liquid from the cross-piece as a sump.  If you want to take liquid more conventionally, then the dual slant-plate concept (Fig. 2) that Alex used in his mini-still will work.  You can also do an internal cup design (Fig.3).

                  Or have dual VM and LM setup (Fig.4), where you equilibrate & draw off heads & foreshots as liquid (easier to concentrate & manage/measure), then switch to vapour for the main run & tails.  Best of all worlds.  One design fits all.

                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry

                • bursal2
                  Hi All, A couple of questions, 1. Sizing of the VM takeoff to the gate valve and Liebig, is this critical can it be say 1 for the section with the gate valve
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 8, 2008
                    Hi All,

                    A couple of questions,
                    1. Sizing of the VM takeoff to the gate valve and Liebig, is this
                    critical can it be say 1" for the section with the gate valve and 1/2"
                    and 1" for the Liebig. Suggested length for the Liebig.

                    2. Harry in any of your articles you don't mention column insulation,
                    is it needed?

                    Cheers
                  • Harry
                    ... 1/2 ... insulation, ... #1 Sizing the Takeoff Path. When you split a stream of vapour, it will divide according to the diameter of each path that the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 8, 2008
                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi All,
                      >
                      > A couple of questions,
                      > 1. Sizing of the VM takeoff to the gate valve and Liebig, is this
                      > critical can it be say 1" for the section with the gate valve and
                      1/2"
                      > and 1" for the Liebig. Suggested length for the Liebig.
                      >
                      > 2. Harry in any of your articles you don't mention column
                      insulation,
                      > is it needed?
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      >


                      #1 Sizing the Takeoff Path.

                      When you split a stream of vapour, it will divide according to the
                      diameter of each path that the vapour can follow . IOW if you have
                      a 2" column, and a 1" sidepath, the split ratio is NOT 2 to 1 as you
                      would expect. It is...

                      Area of 2" = Pi x r^2 --> 3.1416 x 1 x 1 = 3.14"

                      Area of 1" = Pi x r^2 --> 3.1416 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.79"

                      Actual Ratio is 3.14 to 0.79 or nearly 4 to 1

                      This means that if you build a column of 2" diameter and a 1" VM
                      sidedraft, it will automatically have nominally 4 to 1 reflux, or
                      80% reflux and 20% product takeoff.

                      If you build it all out of 2" (column and sidedraft) then there will
                      be an automatic ratio of 1 to 1 or 50% each, of reflux and product.
                      You can then vary this ratio for higher (not lower) reflux by using
                      a gate valve on the sidedraft arm to limit the amount of vapour
                      entering the sidedraft for product takeoff.



                      re Liebig sizing.

                      The length of the liebig is directly dependent on the volume of
                      vapour that it has to handle in any given timeslice. This volume in
                      turn is dependent on the energy input to the column, and the
                      refluxing ratio as set by design specs (pipe diameters) and/or
                      gatevalve adjustment.
                      It's all a matter of balance. For a nominal 1400watt input, you
                      should be able to get away with a liebig of around 1" x 0.5" x 24".
                      This will give a little margin for variation in vapour feed to the
                      final condenser (the liebig). You can also vary the coolant speed
                      in the liebig to have further control.



                      #2 Column insulation, Is It Needed?

                      Whether or not to insulate the column is dependent on several
                      things...what product you want(pure white spirits or brown flavoured
                      spirits), column materials (stainless or copper), and environment
                      (ambient temperatures).

                      For neutral white spirits, insulate the column.

                      For brown flavoured spirits (whiskies, rums) don't insulate.

                      For stainless columns, generally don't insulate (stainless has poor
                      heat transfer and heat loss capabilities).

                      For copper, generally insulate (high transfer & heat loss
                      capabilities). Except in the following circumstances.

                      If doing neutral spirits through a copper column, removing the
                      insulation will increase the refluxing due to heatloss at the column
                      walls, before the vapours reach the overhead condenser. Of course
                      this is wasted power, and the same can be achieved by keeping the
                      insulation, reducing the power input and increasing the coolant flow
                      to the overhead condenser.

                      No two stills are the same. Experiment with your rig and decide for
                      yourself how you want to operate it. With the info I've given you,
                      you will at least have an idea of what to expect and WHY these
                      differences affect your end-product.


                      HTH
                      Slainte!
                      regards Harry
                    • bursal2
                      Harry another question or two, A 2 gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention the cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008
                        Harry another question or two,

                        A 2" gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention the
                        cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My thinking is no
                        but I need to ask. I am trying limit the amount of brass in the system
                        and stainless steel blows out cost!

                        My thinking is 3' x 2" copper column, packed with copper
                        mesh/scrubbers, 2" vapor take off with brass gate valve, 1/2" x 30"
                        product tube with a 1" x 24" liebig. Followed by a parrot's beak,I
                        don't think I need to go to your shared design of the Ultimate
                        Parrot's Beak because of the liebig just above it.

                        The head will be as per your design.

                        I want to be able to store the column in sections so I think I will
                        use 2" joiners, braze the upper side to the column and slightly
                        stretch the lower side of the joiner so that I can slide together with
                        teflon
                        tape and if needed some flour paste.

                        Thanks Harry for great design and valuable assistance.

                        Cheers

                        Bursal
                      • Harry
                        ... The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the liebig condenser
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008


                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Harry another question or two,
                          >
                          > A 2" gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention the
                          > cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My thinking is no
                          > but I need to ask. I am trying limit the amount of brass in the system
                          > and stainless steel blows out cost!
                          >
                          > My thinking is 3' x 2" copper column, packed with copper
                          > mesh/scrubbers, 2" vapor take off with brass gate valve, 1/2" x 30"
                          > product tube with a 1" x 24" liebig. Followed by a parrot's beak,I
                          > don't think I need to go to your shared design of the Ultimate
                          > Parrot's Beak because of the liebig just above it.
                          >
                          > The head will be as per your design.
                          >
                          > I want to be able to store the column in sections so I think I will
                          > use 2" joiners, braze the upper side to the column and slightly
                          > stretch the lower side of the joiner so that I can slide together with
                          > teflon  
                          > tape and if needed some flour paste.
                          >
                          > Thanks Harry for great design and valuable assistance.
                          >
                          > Cheers
                          >
                          > Bursal
                          >

                          The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce its opening.  Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the liebig condenser section, a valve will  do little to restrict them.  It would only restrict as a complete shut-off.  Otherwise it's a venturi which only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.

                          Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452

                          A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh to be placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold surfaces.  Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.

                          If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the joiners on the uppermost sections as per below.  Teflon tape the slip-joins.  This will help prevent leakages.  A still column and condensers built like this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime.  Good luck with your build.

                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
                          http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/


                        • Trid
                          ... Aye...mine s a break-down modular in a similar vein. I find that condensation along the walls of the column make an adequate seal at joints. I ve never
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008
                            --- Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

                            > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the joiners on
                            > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins. This
                            > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                            > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                            > luck with your build.

                            Aye...mine's a break-down modular in a similar vein. I find that condensation
                            along the walls of the column make an adequate seal at joints. I've never
                            experienced leaking with no additional effort given towards making a seal
                            (tested both with the water/visible steam and soap bubble methods).

                            Also, a note for clarity (not sure if this is US-centric, or applicable in
                            other countries) but what is shown in the illustration labeled as a "union"
                            would be called a "coupling" in the states. A union is a two-part threaded
                            joiner that seals due to the threaded collar tightening down on the other half.
                            This thing:
                            http://www.doityourself.com/invt/2256733
                            Aside: that's a link for a 2" union...the price seems incredibly low
                            considering current copper prices (I would expect $55.00+)

                            Trid
                            -
                          • abbababbaccc
                            One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2 VM column. You do not have to go to 2 takeoff unless you really want to. I m using 20mm takeoff and that s
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                              One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                              not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                              20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                              neutral stuff.

                              Cheers, Riku

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com> ,
                              > "bursal2" <bursal@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Harry another question or two,
                              > >
                              > > A 2" gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention
                              the
                              > > cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My thinking
                              is no
                              > > but I need to ask. I am trying limit the amount of brass in the
                              system
                              > > and stainless steel blows out cost!
                              > >
                              > > My thinking is 3' x 2" copper column, packed with copper
                              > > mesh/scrubbers, 2" vapor take off with brass gate valve, 1/2" x
                              30"
                              > > product tube with a 1" x 24" liebig. Followed by a parrot's
                              beak,I
                              > > don't think I need to go to your shared design of the Ultimate
                              > > Parrot's Beak because of the liebig just above it.
                              > >
                              > > The head will be as per your design.
                              > >
                              > > I want to be able to store the column in sections so I think I
                              will
                              > > use 2" joiners, braze the upper side to the column and slightly
                              > > stretch the lower side of the joiner so that I can slide
                              together with
                              > > teflon
                              > > tape and if needed some flour paste.
                              > >
                              > > Thanks Harry for great design and valuable assistance.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers
                              > >
                              > > Bursal
                              > >
                              >
                              > The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to
                              reduce
                              > its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the
                              liebig
                              > condenser section, a valve will do little to restrict them. It
                              would
                              > only restrict as a complete shut-off. Otherwise it's a venturi
                              which
                              > only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.
                              >
                              > Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this
                              > message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452
                              >
                              > A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh
                              to be
                              > placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold
                              surfaces.
                              > Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.
                              >
                              > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the
                              joiners on
                              > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins.
                              This
                              > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built
                              like
                              > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime.
                              Good
                              > luck with your build.
                              >
                              > Slainte!
                              > regards Harry
                              > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                              > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                              >
                            • br0nwyn1
                              ... Would a 1 take off still work for a 3 vm column?
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                                > not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                                > 20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                                > neutral stuff.
                                >
                                > Cheers, Riku
                                >



                                Would a 1" take off still work for a 3" vm column?
                              • abbababbaccc
                                Haven t tried that but I d say it works, especially if you introduce a vertical drop before the condenser. This would create an inverse chimney effect which
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                  Haven't tried that but I'd say it works, especially if you introduce a
                                  vertical drop before the condenser. This would create an inverse
                                  chimney effect which would mean that the valve in practise becomes a
                                  throttle body making the area ratio less relevant.

                                  Cheers, Riku

                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "br0nwyn1" <jmcallister@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                                  > > not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                                  > > 20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                                  > > neutral stuff.
                                  > >
                                  > > Cheers, Riku
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Would a 1" take off still work for a 3" vm column?
                                  >
                                • bursal2
                                  ... Thanks Harry, I thought there was good reason for placing the gate valve on the vapour takeoff, now I know. The liebig will have a ½ bore and the water
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce
                                    > its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the liebig
                                    > condenser section, a valve will do little to restrict them. It would
                                    > only restrict as a complete shut-off. Otherwise it's a venturi which
                                    > only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.
                                    >
                                    > Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this
                                    > message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452
                                    >
                                    > A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh to be
                                    > placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold surfaces.
                                    > Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.
                                    >
                                    > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the joiners on
                                    > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins. This
                                    > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                                    > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                                    > luck with your build.
                                    >
                                    > Slainte!
                                    > regards Harry
                                    > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                    > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                                    >
                                    Thanks Harry, I thought there was good reason for placing the gate
                                    valve on the vapour takeoff, now I know.

                                    The liebig will have a ½" bore and the water jacket will be 1", sorry
                                    my terminology was confusing.

                                    Yes, I am aware of the problems with brass and the need pickling. The
                                    problem is S/S is very expensive and I would not use 2nd hand gate
                                    valves, either brass or S/S because you don't know what has been
                                    through them. I will not use 2nd hand brass for the same reason.

                                    Thanks for diagram of the joins, I was going to put the brazed joint
                                    on the wrong side.

                                    Cheers
                                    Bursal
                                  • bursal2
                                    ... joiners on ... This ... condensation ... never ... seal ... applicable in ... union ... threaded ... other half. ... Yes, I meant coupling not union.
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the
                                      joiners on
                                      > > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins.
                                      This
                                      > > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                                      > > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                                      > > luck with your build.
                                      >
                                      > Aye...mine's a break-down modular in a similar vein. I find that
                                      condensation
                                      > along the walls of the column make an adequate seal at joints. I've
                                      never
                                      > experienced leaking with no additional effort given towards making a
                                      seal
                                      > (tested both with the water/visible steam and soap bubble methods).
                                      >
                                      > Also, a note for clarity (not sure if this is US-centric, or
                                      applicable in
                                      > other countries) but what is shown in the illustration labeled as a
                                      "union"
                                      > would be called a "coupling" in the states. A union is a two-part
                                      threaded
                                      > joiner that seals due to the threaded collar tightening down on the
                                      other half.
                                      > This thing:
                                      > http://www.doityourself.com/invt/2256733
                                      > Aside: that's a link for a 2" union...the price seems incredibly low
                                      > considering current copper prices (I would expect $55.00+)
                                      >
                                      > Trid
                                      > -
                                      >
                                      Yes, I meant coupling not union. When I was replying I kept all my
                                      measurements in imperial units because I thought many of the readers
                                      would be more used to them. Because of my age I can remember the days
                                      of inches and feet in Ozland.

                                      Cheers
                                      Bursal
                                    • bursal2
                                      ... Thanks,if I could get 1lt per hour at 95.6% of neutral spirit I would be more than happy. Using 1 takes some of the weight off the column and gives it
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                                        > not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                                        > 20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                                        > neutral stuff.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers, Riku
                                        >
                                        Thanks,if I could get 1lt per hour at 95.6% of neutral spirit I would
                                        be more than happy. Using 1" takes some of the weight off the column
                                        and gives it better balance.

                                        Cheers
                                        Bursal
                                      • bursal2
                                        ... liebig ... to be ... surfaces. ... joiners on ... This ... An update and some questions. I managed to find 2 new, 316 3 piece S/S ball valves with PTFE
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 24, 2008
                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce
                                          > > its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the
                                          liebig
                                          > > condenser section, a valve will do little to restrict them. It would
                                          > > only restrict as a complete shut-off. Otherwise it's a venturi which
                                          > > only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.
                                          > >
                                          > > Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this
                                          > > message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452
                                          > >
                                          > > A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh
                                          to be
                                          > > placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold
                                          surfaces.
                                          > > Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.
                                          > >
                                          > > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the
                                          joiners on
                                          > > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins.
                                          This
                                          > > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                                          > > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                                          > > luck with your build.
                                          > >
                                          > > Slainte!
                                          > > regards Harry
                                          > > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                          > > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                                          > >
                                          > Thanks Harry, I thought there was good reason for placing the gate
                                          > valve on the vapour takeoff, now I know.
                                          >
                                          > The liebig will have a ½" bore and the water jacket will be 1", sorry
                                          > my terminology was confusing.
                                          >
                                          > Yes, I am aware of the problems with brass and the need pickling. The
                                          > problem is S/S is very expensive and I would not use 2nd hand gate
                                          > valves, either brass or S/S because you don't know what has been
                                          > through them. I will not use 2nd hand brass for the same reason.
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for diagram of the joins, I was going to put the brazed joint
                                          > on the wrong side.
                                          >
                                          > Cheers
                                          > Bursal
                                          >
                                          An update and some questions.

                                          I managed to find 2 new, 316 3 piece S/S ball valves with PTFE seats,
                                          one 2" and the other is 1" for $100 delivered, that's solved the valve
                                          problem. Slowly gathering all the copper bits and pieces.

                                          Questions:

                                          If I want to use the column for beer stripping can I replace the
                                          condenser head with a stopper and thermometer, at the top of tee for
                                          the vapour takeoff, and remove the copper
                                          packing.

                                          As I am making the column so that it can be dismantled is there any
                                          advantage in using a short column for stripping.

                                          Are the following distances critical, if so can you make some
                                          recommendations? -

                                          From vapour takeoff to condenser.

                                          Length of vapour takeoff.

                                          I am sure I have seen recommendations for distance for packing from
                                          top of boiler and from thermometer but I can't find them, can someone
                                          please enlighten me.

                                          Thanks
                                          Bursal
                                        • abbababbaccc
                                          ... seats, ... valve ... for ... someone ... Stripping and column packing. Based on my experiments you will get much more concentrated head and slightly more
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 25, 2008
                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > An update and some questions.
                                            >
                                            > I managed to find 2 new, 316 3 piece S/S ball valves with PTFE
                                            seats,
                                            > one 2" and the other is 1" for $100 delivered, that's solved the
                                            valve
                                            > problem. Slowly gathering all the copper bits and pieces.
                                            >
                                            > Questions:
                                            >
                                            > If I want to use the column for beer stripping can I replace the
                                            > condenser head with a stopper and thermometer, at the top of tee
                                            for
                                            > the vapour takeoff, and remove the copper
                                            > packing.
                                            >
                                            > As I am making the column so that it can be dismantled is there any
                                            > advantage in using a short column for stripping.
                                            >
                                            > Are the following distances critical, if so can you make some
                                            > recommendations? -
                                            >
                                            > From vapour takeoff to condenser.
                                            >
                                            > Length of vapour takeoff.
                                            >
                                            > I am sure I have seen recommendations for distance for packing from
                                            > top of boiler and from thermometer but I can't find them, can
                                            someone
                                            > please enlighten me.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks
                                            > Bursal

                                            Stripping and column packing. Based on my experiments you will get
                                            much more concentrated head and slightly more concentrated tails if
                                            you leave the packing in and insulate the column. As the column
                                            heats up lots of reflux is generated and heads get concentrated.
                                            After that heat losses are small and there won't be much reflux
                                            which means only little concentration happens. You can increase the
                                            reflux by leaning out the insulation but then the speed gets down.

                                            Cheers, Riku
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