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Re: [Distillers] Re: Jackson Crossflow Condensor, was starting over from scratch

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  • Zapata Vive
    Doh! The limits of viewing a 2D diagram of a 3D device! Yeah, I see that about the dam now. I guess you could build a deflector plate, like on one of the
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008
      Doh!  The limits of viewing a 2D diagram of a 3D device!  Yeah, I see that about the dam now.
       
      I guess you could build a deflector plate, like on one of the bokakobs, to catch the condensate from the middle. 
       
      Harry, what do you think about using this head for a stripper / pot still / reflux combo unit, changing the column and packing to suit each?
       
      ¡Tierra y Libertad!
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: rhodeseng
      Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 3:04 PM
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Jackson Crossflow Condensor, was starting over from scratch

      my crossflow condenser has an internal ring that causes the
      condensate to flow around the center section and not down the column.

      So only the small center section actually goes back down the column.

      cary

      --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@ ...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Robert got me thinking about your head now Harry. And Morgan's
      got me thinking about the height it would save. (although my water
      heater is only about 3.5 feet high)
      >
      > I've seen it before, but not really studied it. I'm wondering
      about channelling with it. It doesn't seem to direct reflux back to
      the middle of the column, or does it and I just don't see it? Is
      this not as important as I've been lead to believe, or do you have a
      modification for it?
      >
      > It also looks like it will have a minimum reflux ratio of about
      2:1, right? Because any condensation on the non-take off side goes
      back down the column, and any condensation in the middle goes back
      down the column, so the most you can capture is 1/3, or am I missing
      something again? I can't really think of a good way to be able to
      capture all the product if one wanted to, have you thought that one
      out by chance?
      >
      > Do you use this head for flavored runs? If not, what do you use?
      >

    • Harry
      ... thinking about the height it would save. (although my water heater is only about 3.5 feet high) ... channelling with it. It doesn t seem to direct reflux
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@...> wrote:
        >
        > Robert got me thinking about your head now Harry.  And Morgan's got me thinking about the height it would save.  (although my water heater is only about 3.5 feet high)
        >
        > I've seen it before, but not really studied it.  I'm wondering about channelling with it.  It doesn't seem to direct reflux back to the middle of the column, or does it and I just don't see it?  Is this not as important as I've been lead to believe, or do you have a modification for it?

         


        .............Channelling is not an issue in a properly packed column.  The mesh is in intimate contact with the column wall at all points.  Liquid will follow the strands into the packing mass.  Ever noticed how rain droplets follow the underside of twigs & leaves?  Same thing happens in packed columns, if you've got the balance of power-to-volume correct.
          Stick the condenser on top of a 36" glass column and you'll quickly see what I mean.  Further to that, if your column is operating properly, the descending liquids, whether in the packing or at the wall, will revaporize when they reach a zone with the necessary temperature gradient.  A correctly packed and balanced column should only have fully stripped water as the bottoms product, which returns to the boiler.

         

        >
        > It also looks like it will have a minimum reflux ratio of about 2:1, right?  Because any condensation on the non-take off side goes back down the column, and any condensation in the middle goes back down the column, so the most you can capture is 1/3, or am I missing something again?  I can't really think of a good way to be able to capture all the product if one wanted to, have you thought that one out by chance?

         

        ..................At first glance, it appears that some condensed liquid would rain down from the center section to the column.  But in practice it does not.  Rising vapours push the droplets along the cooling tubes toward the both ends of the condenser, where they fall into the dams.  Product is drawn from the dams (they're flow is joined around the dam wall) at one end.  Excess product is returned to the column as reflux via spillage over the dam wall (the swaged down section that's actually the top of the column).
          If you wanted to draw ALL of the product, you could do it just by fully opening the needle valve.  But it defeats the purpose of a reflux column if you don't return some reflux, doesn't it?  The only time you draw ALL product is when you're running out tails.  Reflux is not necessary for this part of the distilling procedure, and is just a waste of power.


        >
        > Do you use this head for flavored runs?  If not, what do you use?


        .........Yes I do.  I just take off product a little faster (less pure).  Settings for strength  and cutpoints are determined by an inline parrot's beak readings.
          This condenser also lends itself very well to a Vapour Management setup.  Close the needle valve altogether and vary the output via a gate valve on the side takeoff tube.  Now that's versatility!  See below my sig...

        Slainte!
        regards Harry

      • Zapata Vive
        Jackson Crossflow it is then! Now I just have to figure out this vapor management stuff before I collect enough feints and redistills to need it! Or, maybe
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008
          Jackson Crossflow it is then!

          Now I just have to figure out this vapor management stuff before I collect enough feints and redistills to need it! Or, maybe remind me why it would be better as vapor management than just adjusting the reflux via the take off rate?

          Harry, do you use the full length column for flavor runs and leave the packing in, or take the packing out and or shorten the column?

          ¡Tierra y Libertad!
        • Robert N
          From what I understand, you are talking about two things. 1) The amount of fluid damned up on the NON-takeoff side. 2) How all the fluid from both
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008

            From what I understand, you are talking about two things.

            1)      The amount of fluid damned up on the NON-takeoff side.

            2)      How all the fluid from both sides would run down the walls as it overflowed back down into the column?  

             

            As to 1) you could build in a slight downward angle towards the take off spigot. It wouldn’t need to be more than a couple of degrees at best and you will probably find the added weight of the spigot and tubing hanging off of the condenser will naturally make the still lean to that side anyway. Or you could add a tube through the tower at the point where the tower enters the condenser. Drill a small hole through this tube so that some fluid can drop back down the tower. However this idea would be very hard to do if soldering.

             

            With the second point you could fit two slanted plates both angled downwards or at the join point of the tower to the condenser, you would have a coupling just below the condenser, place a scrubber in at this point which will have the desired effect. However I tend to agree with Harry on this point, even if it slides down the tower sides, once it hits the packing it will quickly disperse.

             

            A question to Harry, do you have a shield over the thermometer to prevent the liquid dropping onto it, thus giving a slightly cooler temperature reading?

             

            Yours in Spirit

             

            Robert

             

            From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Zapata Vive
            Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 5:59 AM
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Distillers] Jackson Crossflow Condensor, was starting over from scratch

             

            Robert got me thinking about your head now Harry.  And Morgan's got me thinking about the height it would save.  (although my water heater is only about 3.5 feet high)

             

            I've seen it before, but not really studied it.  I'm wondering about channelling with it.  It doesn't seem to direct reflux back to the middle of the column, or does it and I just don't see it?  Is this not as important as I've been lead to believe, or do you have a modification for it?

             

            It also looks like it will have a minimum reflux ratio of about 2:1, right?  Because any condensation on the non-take off side goes back down the column, and any condensation in the middle goes back down the column, so the most you can capture is 1/3, or am I missing something again?  I can't really think of a good way to be able to capture all the product if one wanted to, have you thought that one out by chance?

             

            Do you use this head for flavored runs?  If not, what do you use?

          • Harry
            ... prevent ... Yes. My apologies for not showing it in the previous schematic. The tube that holds the thermometer is actually a cutaway half-tube on the
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert N" <dinks_c@...> wrote:

              >
              > A question to Harry, do you have a shield over the thermometer to prevent
              > the liquid dropping onto it, thus giving a slightly cooler temperature
              > reading?
               
              >
              > Yours in Spirit
               
              > Robert


              Yes.  My apologies for not showing it in the previous schematic.  The tube that holds the thermometer is actually a cutaway half-tube on the inside of the column as per below...

              Slainte!
              regards Harry

            • gff_stwrt
              ... snip A correctly packed and balanced column should only have fully ... snip snip snip ! Hi, Harry, hi folks, So let me think as I put this down....
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008
                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                >

                snip

                A correctly packed and balanced column should only have fully
                > stripped water as the bottoms product, which returns to the boiler.
                >
                snip snip snip !


                Hi, Harry, hi folks,

                So let me think as I put this down....

                Letting this 'fully stripped water' return to the boiler seems
                incredibly inefficient.

                Suppose I directed the vapour to the side of the column, part-way
                up, instead of mounting the column on the top of the boiler....

                (And I know this idea is not at all original but nobody seems to
                do it!)

                ....and directed this 'fully stripped water' from the base of the
                column THROUGH A PARROT'S BEAK CONTAINING A HYDROMETER so that I
                could be sure I was not losing alcohol, to a collection vessel (or
                for that matter to a drain as long as the hydrometer was carefully
                watched).

                One could then have (as did the alembic stills of the pioneering
                arabs) a reserve tank for the mash, and feed it through a tap to
                the boiler which should
                have a sight glass, another un-original idea perhaps not that often
                used, so that the inflow, which would be very slow anyway so would
                not affect the operation of the boiler, could be matched to outflows
                of product plus water.

                One would then have a continuous or semi-continuous still which
                would save a terrific amount of time now used between batches to
                empty and clean and refill the boiler and wait (the biggest loss of
                time) for the boiler to re-heat. Such a system would use a minimal
                extra amount of energy (particularly easy to do with gas heating) to
                heat the small amount of cool wash entering the boiler, continuously.

                In the case of a pot-still, again as the Arabs used to do, one could
                direct the lyne arm THROUGH the reserve tank for the mash so it is
                pre-heated with what was wasted energy.

                Is ANYBODY already using a system like this? I know I have
                seendiagrams, possibly Harry posted one some time ago.

                It doesn't involve a great deal of extra work if you are going to
                make a still anyway.

                Regards,

                The Baker

                p.s. sorry if a couple of words are run together, my computer has
                decided to munch up what I have already written when I try to
                correct or edit anything and I don't know how to stop it! G.
              • Robert N
                Hi Baker there was a system that you may remember that was on the Australian ABC TV network called The New Inventers one of the inventions showcased was a
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 3, 2008

                  Hi Baker there was a system that you may remember that was on the Australian ABC TV network called “The New Inventers” one of the “inventions” showcased was a still said to distil salt water or effluent laced water etc. Was made of stainless steel and basically it was the boiler on the bottom and a holding tank/condenser above with the off take tube winding through the top tank.

                   

                  The greatest problem’s, although not insurmountable, with this idea is what happens if the “coolant” gets too hot to cool the product. And of course what happens as the wash empties out toward the end of the run do you top up with water. This then makes it awfully expensive to get the last of the alcohol out.

                   

                  Cheers

                   

                  Robert

                   

                  From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gff_stwrt
                  Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 12:34 PM
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Distillers] Re: Jackson Crossflow Condensor, was starting over from scratch

                   

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

                  >

                  snip

                  A correctly packed and balanced column should only have fully
                  > stripped water as the bottoms product, which returns to the boiler.
                  >
                  snip snip snip !

                  Hi, Harry, hi folks,

                  So let me think as I put this down....

                  Letting this 'fully stripped water' return to the boiler seems
                  incredibly inefficient.

                  Suppose I directed the vapour to the side of the column, part-way
                  up, instead of mounting the column on the top of the boiler....

                  (And I know this idea is not at all original but nobody seems to
                  do it!)

                  ....and directed this 'fully stripped water' from the base of the
                  column THROUGH A PARROT'S BEAK CONTAINING A HYDROMETER so that I
                  could be sure I was not losing alcohol, to a collection vessel (or
                  for that matter to a drain as long as the hydrometer was carefully
                  watched).

                  One could then have (as did the alembic stills of the pioneering
                  arabs) a reserve tank for the mash, and feed it through a tap to
                  the boiler which should
                  have a sight glass, another un-original idea perhaps not that often
                  used, so that the inflow, which would be very slow anyway so would
                  not affect the operation of the boiler, could be matched to outflows
                  of product plus water.

                  One would then have a continuous or semi-continuous still which
                  would save a terrific amount of time now used between batches to
                  empty and clean and refill the boiler and wait (the biggest loss of
                  time) for the boiler to re-heat. Such a system would use a minimal
                  extra amount of energy (particularly easy to do with gas heating) to
                  heat the small amount of cool wash entering the boiler, continuously.

                  In the case of a pot-still, again as the Arabs used to do, one could
                  direct the lyne arm THROUGH the reserve tank for the mash so it is
                  pre-heated with what was wasted energy.

                  Is ANYBODY already using a system like this? I know I have
                  seendiagrams, possibly Harry posted one some time ago.

                  It doesn't involve a great deal of extra work if you are going to
                  make a still anyway.

                  Regards,

                  The Baker

                • waljaco
                  Preheating the wine? Not the Arabs but the French in Charente province (for cognac). wal
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 5, 2008
                    Preheating the wine? Not the Arabs but the French in Charente province
                    (for cognac).
                    wal
                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                    > >
                    >
                    > snip
                    >
                    > A correctly packed and balanced column should only have fully
                    > > stripped water as the bottoms product, which returns to the boiler.
                    > >
                    > snip snip snip !
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi, Harry, hi folks,
                    >
                    > So let me think as I put this down....
                    >
                    > Letting this 'fully stripped water' return to the boiler seems
                    > incredibly inefficient.
                    >
                    > Suppose I directed the vapour to the side of the column, part-way
                    > up, instead of mounting the column on the top of the boiler....
                    >
                    > (And I know this idea is not at all original but nobody seems to
                    > do it!)
                    >
                    > ....and directed this 'fully stripped water' from the base of the
                    > column THROUGH A PARROT'S BEAK CONTAINING A HYDROMETER so that I
                    > could be sure I was not losing alcohol, to a collection vessel (or
                    > for that matter to a drain as long as the hydrometer was carefully
                    > watched).
                    >
                    > One could then have (as did the alembic stills of the pioneering
                    > arabs) a reserve tank for the mash, and feed it through a tap to
                    > the boiler which should
                    > have a sight glass, another un-original idea perhaps not that often
                    > used, so that the inflow, which would be very slow anyway so would
                    > not affect the operation of the boiler, could be matched to outflows
                    > of product plus water.
                    >
                    > One would then have a continuous or semi-continuous still which
                    > would save a terrific amount of time now used between batches to
                    > empty and clean and refill the boiler and wait (the biggest loss of
                    > time) for the boiler to re-heat. Such a system would use a minimal
                    > extra amount of energy (particularly easy to do with gas heating) to
                    > heat the small amount of cool wash entering the boiler, continuously.
                    >
                    > In the case of a pot-still, again as the Arabs used to do, one could
                    > direct the lyne arm THROUGH the reserve tank for the mash so it is
                    > pre-heated with what was wasted energy.
                    >
                    > Is ANYBODY already using a system like this? I know I have
                    > seendiagrams, possibly Harry posted one some time ago.
                    >
                    > It doesn't involve a great deal of extra work if you are going to
                    > make a still anyway.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > The Baker
                    >
                    > p.s. sorry if a couple of words are run together, my computer has
                    > decided to munch up what I have already written when I try to
                    > correct or edit anything and I don't know how to stop it! G.
                    >
                  • Zapata Vive
                    Another question for you Harry. For the dam in the head, instead of having a machine shop pinch a piece of pipe, how about using a sheet of copper to braze
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 8, 2008
                      Another question for you Harry.
                      For the "dam" in the head, instead of having a machine shop pinch a piece of pipe, how about using a sheet of copper to braze in a rim?  I say braze because then you could solder the rest of the "T" fitting without melting it.
                       
                      I'm imagining cutting a piece of pipe and flattening it.  This I would solder in to make the damn, attaching it right at the lip of the "T".  I'm also wondering if this dam sheet were slightly oversized downwards and bent inward, making a drip ring so the reflux would be directed at least onto packing and not just down the side wall of the column.
                       
                      What do you think?  See any problems?
                       
                    • Harry
                      ... piece of pipe, how about using a sheet of copper to braze in a rim? I say braze because then you could solder the rest of the T fitting without melting
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 8, 2008


                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Another question for you Harry.
                        > For the "dam" in the head, instead of having a machine shop pinch a piece of pipe, how about using a sheet of copper to braze in a rim?  I say braze because then you could solder the rest of the "T" fitting without melting it.
                        >
                        > I'm imagining cutting a piece of pipe and flattening it.  This I would solder in to make the damn, attaching it right at the lip of the "T".  I'm also wondering if this dam sheet were slightly oversized downwards and bent inward, making a drip ring so the reflux would be directed at least onto packing and not just down the side wall of the column.
                        >
                        > What do you think?  See any problems?
                        >


                        The only problem would be your metalworking skill limitations (if any) and your patience with fiddly work.

                        This design can be adapted to any configuration you wish, while still maintaining the overall concept of unrestricted coolant flow and large capacity condensing.

                        You can do away with the dam altogether if you're running it as a total reflux overhead condenser in a Vapour Management design (Fig.1).

                        The dam is only necessary if you intend to take liquid from the cross-piece as a sump.  If you want to take liquid more conventionally, then the dual slant-plate concept (Fig. 2) that Alex used in his mini-still will work.  You can also do an internal cup design (Fig.3).

                        Or have dual VM and LM setup (Fig.4), where you equilibrate & draw off heads & foreshots as liquid (easier to concentrate & manage/measure), then switch to vapour for the main run & tails.  Best of all worlds.  One design fits all.

                        Slainte!
                        regards Harry

                      • bursal2
                        Hi All, A couple of questions, 1. Sizing of the VM takeoff to the gate valve and Liebig, is this critical can it be say 1 for the section with the gate valve
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 8, 2008
                          Hi All,

                          A couple of questions,
                          1. Sizing of the VM takeoff to the gate valve and Liebig, is this
                          critical can it be say 1" for the section with the gate valve and 1/2"
                          and 1" for the Liebig. Suggested length for the Liebig.

                          2. Harry in any of your articles you don't mention column insulation,
                          is it needed?

                          Cheers
                        • Harry
                          ... 1/2 ... insulation, ... #1 Sizing the Takeoff Path. When you split a stream of vapour, it will divide according to the diameter of each path that the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 8, 2008
                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi All,
                            >
                            > A couple of questions,
                            > 1. Sizing of the VM takeoff to the gate valve and Liebig, is this
                            > critical can it be say 1" for the section with the gate valve and
                            1/2"
                            > and 1" for the Liebig. Suggested length for the Liebig.
                            >
                            > 2. Harry in any of your articles you don't mention column
                            insulation,
                            > is it needed?
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            >


                            #1 Sizing the Takeoff Path.

                            When you split a stream of vapour, it will divide according to the
                            diameter of each path that the vapour can follow . IOW if you have
                            a 2" column, and a 1" sidepath, the split ratio is NOT 2 to 1 as you
                            would expect. It is...

                            Area of 2" = Pi x r^2 --> 3.1416 x 1 x 1 = 3.14"

                            Area of 1" = Pi x r^2 --> 3.1416 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.79"

                            Actual Ratio is 3.14 to 0.79 or nearly 4 to 1

                            This means that if you build a column of 2" diameter and a 1" VM
                            sidedraft, it will automatically have nominally 4 to 1 reflux, or
                            80% reflux and 20% product takeoff.

                            If you build it all out of 2" (column and sidedraft) then there will
                            be an automatic ratio of 1 to 1 or 50% each, of reflux and product.
                            You can then vary this ratio for higher (not lower) reflux by using
                            a gate valve on the sidedraft arm to limit the amount of vapour
                            entering the sidedraft for product takeoff.



                            re Liebig sizing.

                            The length of the liebig is directly dependent on the volume of
                            vapour that it has to handle in any given timeslice. This volume in
                            turn is dependent on the energy input to the column, and the
                            refluxing ratio as set by design specs (pipe diameters) and/or
                            gatevalve adjustment.
                            It's all a matter of balance. For a nominal 1400watt input, you
                            should be able to get away with a liebig of around 1" x 0.5" x 24".
                            This will give a little margin for variation in vapour feed to the
                            final condenser (the liebig). You can also vary the coolant speed
                            in the liebig to have further control.



                            #2 Column insulation, Is It Needed?

                            Whether or not to insulate the column is dependent on several
                            things...what product you want(pure white spirits or brown flavoured
                            spirits), column materials (stainless or copper), and environment
                            (ambient temperatures).

                            For neutral white spirits, insulate the column.

                            For brown flavoured spirits (whiskies, rums) don't insulate.

                            For stainless columns, generally don't insulate (stainless has poor
                            heat transfer and heat loss capabilities).

                            For copper, generally insulate (high transfer & heat loss
                            capabilities). Except in the following circumstances.

                            If doing neutral spirits through a copper column, removing the
                            insulation will increase the refluxing due to heatloss at the column
                            walls, before the vapours reach the overhead condenser. Of course
                            this is wasted power, and the same can be achieved by keeping the
                            insulation, reducing the power input and increasing the coolant flow
                            to the overhead condenser.

                            No two stills are the same. Experiment with your rig and decide for
                            yourself how you want to operate it. With the info I've given you,
                            you will at least have an idea of what to expect and WHY these
                            differences affect your end-product.


                            HTH
                            Slainte!
                            regards Harry
                          • bursal2
                            Harry another question or two, A 2 gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention the cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008
                              Harry another question or two,

                              A 2" gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention the
                              cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My thinking is no
                              but I need to ask. I am trying limit the amount of brass in the system
                              and stainless steel blows out cost!

                              My thinking is 3' x 2" copper column, packed with copper
                              mesh/scrubbers, 2" vapor take off with brass gate valve, 1/2" x 30"
                              product tube with a 1" x 24" liebig. Followed by a parrot's beak,I
                              don't think I need to go to your shared design of the Ultimate
                              Parrot's Beak because of the liebig just above it.

                              The head will be as per your design.

                              I want to be able to store the column in sections so I think I will
                              use 2" joiners, braze the upper side to the column and slightly
                              stretch the lower side of the joiner so that I can slide together with
                              teflon
                              tape and if needed some flour paste.

                              Thanks Harry for great design and valuable assistance.

                              Cheers

                              Bursal
                            • Harry
                              ... The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the liebig condenser
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008


                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Harry another question or two,
                                >
                                > A 2" gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention the
                                > cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My thinking is no
                                > but I need to ask. I am trying limit the amount of brass in the system
                                > and stainless steel blows out cost!
                                >
                                > My thinking is 3' x 2" copper column, packed with copper
                                > mesh/scrubbers, 2" vapor take off with brass gate valve, 1/2" x 30"
                                > product tube with a 1" x 24" liebig. Followed by a parrot's beak,I
                                > don't think I need to go to your shared design of the Ultimate
                                > Parrot's Beak because of the liebig just above it.
                                >
                                > The head will be as per your design.
                                >
                                > I want to be able to store the column in sections so I think I will
                                > use 2" joiners, braze the upper side to the column and slightly
                                > stretch the lower side of the joiner so that I can slide together with
                                > teflon  
                                > tape and if needed some flour paste.
                                >
                                > Thanks Harry for great design and valuable assistance.
                                >
                                > Cheers
                                >
                                > Bursal
                                >

                                The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce its opening.  Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the liebig condenser section, a valve will  do little to restrict them.  It would only restrict as a complete shut-off.  Otherwise it's a venturi which only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.

                                Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452

                                A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh to be placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold surfaces.  Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.

                                If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the joiners on the uppermost sections as per below.  Teflon tape the slip-joins.  This will help prevent leakages.  A still column and condensers built like this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime.  Good luck with your build.

                                Slainte!
                                regards Harry
                                http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/


                              • Trid
                                ... Aye...mine s a break-down modular in a similar vein. I find that condensation along the walls of the column make an adequate seal at joints. I ve never
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008
                                  --- Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

                                  > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the joiners on
                                  > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins. This
                                  > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                                  > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                                  > luck with your build.

                                  Aye...mine's a break-down modular in a similar vein. I find that condensation
                                  along the walls of the column make an adequate seal at joints. I've never
                                  experienced leaking with no additional effort given towards making a seal
                                  (tested both with the water/visible steam and soap bubble methods).

                                  Also, a note for clarity (not sure if this is US-centric, or applicable in
                                  other countries) but what is shown in the illustration labeled as a "union"
                                  would be called a "coupling" in the states. A union is a two-part threaded
                                  joiner that seals due to the threaded collar tightening down on the other half.
                                  This thing:
                                  http://www.doityourself.com/invt/2256733
                                  Aside: that's a link for a 2" union...the price seems incredibly low
                                  considering current copper prices (I would expect $55.00+)

                                  Trid
                                  -
                                • abbababbaccc
                                  One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2 VM column. You do not have to go to 2 takeoff unless you really want to. I m using 20mm takeoff and that s
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                    One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                                    not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                                    20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                                    neutral stuff.

                                    Cheers, Riku

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    <mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com> ,
                                    > "bursal2" <bursal@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Harry another question or two,
                                    > >
                                    > > A 2" gate valve is a large heavy piece of brass, not to mention
                                    the
                                    > > cost. Can the valve be on the bend above the liebig? My thinking
                                    is no
                                    > > but I need to ask. I am trying limit the amount of brass in the
                                    system
                                    > > and stainless steel blows out cost!
                                    > >
                                    > > My thinking is 3' x 2" copper column, packed with copper
                                    > > mesh/scrubbers, 2" vapor take off with brass gate valve, 1/2" x
                                    30"
                                    > > product tube with a 1" x 24" liebig. Followed by a parrot's
                                    beak,I
                                    > > don't think I need to go to your shared design of the Ultimate
                                    > > Parrot's Beak because of the liebig just above it.
                                    > >
                                    > > The head will be as per your design.
                                    > >
                                    > > I want to be able to store the column in sections so I think I
                                    will
                                    > > use 2" joiners, braze the upper side to the column and slightly
                                    > > stretch the lower side of the joiner so that I can slide
                                    together with
                                    > > teflon
                                    > > tape and if needed some flour paste.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks Harry for great design and valuable assistance.
                                    > >
                                    > > Cheers
                                    > >
                                    > > Bursal
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to
                                    reduce
                                    > its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the
                                    liebig
                                    > condenser section, a valve will do little to restrict them. It
                                    would
                                    > only restrict as a complete shut-off. Otherwise it's a venturi
                                    which
                                    > only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.
                                    >
                                    > Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this
                                    > message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452
                                    >
                                    > A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh
                                    to be
                                    > placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold
                                    surfaces.
                                    > Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.
                                    >
                                    > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the
                                    joiners on
                                    > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins.
                                    This
                                    > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built
                                    like
                                    > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime.
                                    Good
                                    > luck with your build.
                                    >
                                    > Slainte!
                                    > regards Harry
                                    > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                    > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                                    >
                                  • br0nwyn1
                                    ... Would a 1 take off still work for a 3 vm column?
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                                      > not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                                      > 20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                                      > neutral stuff.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers, Riku
                                      >



                                      Would a 1" take off still work for a 3" vm column?
                                    • abbababbaccc
                                      Haven t tried that but I d say it works, especially if you introduce a vertical drop before the condenser. This would create an inverse chimney effect which
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                        Haven't tried that but I'd say it works, especially if you introduce a
                                        vertical drop before the condenser. This would create an inverse
                                        chimney effect which would mean that the valve in practise becomes a
                                        throttle body making the area ratio less relevant.

                                        Cheers, Riku

                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "br0nwyn1" <jmcallister@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                                        > > not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                                        > > 20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                                        > > neutral stuff.
                                        > >
                                        > > Cheers, Riku
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Would a 1" take off still work for a 3" vm column?
                                        >
                                      • bursal2
                                        ... Thanks Harry, I thought there was good reason for placing the gate valve on the vapour takeoff, now I know. The liebig will have a ½ bore and the water
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce
                                          > its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the liebig
                                          > condenser section, a valve will do little to restrict them. It would
                                          > only restrict as a complete shut-off. Otherwise it's a venturi which
                                          > only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.
                                          >
                                          > Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this
                                          > message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452
                                          >
                                          > A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh to be
                                          > placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold surfaces.
                                          > Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.
                                          >
                                          > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the joiners on
                                          > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins. This
                                          > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                                          > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                                          > luck with your build.
                                          >
                                          > Slainte!
                                          > regards Harry
                                          > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                          > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                                          >
                                          Thanks Harry, I thought there was good reason for placing the gate
                                          valve on the vapour takeoff, now I know.

                                          The liebig will have a ½" bore and the water jacket will be 1", sorry
                                          my terminology was confusing.

                                          Yes, I am aware of the problems with brass and the need pickling. The
                                          problem is S/S is very expensive and I would not use 2nd hand gate
                                          valves, either brass or S/S because you don't know what has been
                                          through them. I will not use 2nd hand brass for the same reason.

                                          Thanks for diagram of the joins, I was going to put the brazed joint
                                          on the wrong side.

                                          Cheers
                                          Bursal
                                        • bursal2
                                          ... joiners on ... This ... condensation ... never ... seal ... applicable in ... union ... threaded ... other half. ... Yes, I meant coupling not union.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the
                                            joiners on
                                            > > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins.
                                            This
                                            > > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                                            > > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                                            > > luck with your build.
                                            >
                                            > Aye...mine's a break-down modular in a similar vein. I find that
                                            condensation
                                            > along the walls of the column make an adequate seal at joints. I've
                                            never
                                            > experienced leaking with no additional effort given towards making a
                                            seal
                                            > (tested both with the water/visible steam and soap bubble methods).
                                            >
                                            > Also, a note for clarity (not sure if this is US-centric, or
                                            applicable in
                                            > other countries) but what is shown in the illustration labeled as a
                                            "union"
                                            > would be called a "coupling" in the states. A union is a two-part
                                            threaded
                                            > joiner that seals due to the threaded collar tightening down on the
                                            other half.
                                            > This thing:
                                            > http://www.doityourself.com/invt/2256733
                                            > Aside: that's a link for a 2" union...the price seems incredibly low
                                            > considering current copper prices (I would expect $55.00+)
                                            >
                                            > Trid
                                            > -
                                            >
                                            Yes, I meant coupling not union. When I was replying I kept all my
                                            measurements in imperial units because I thought many of the readers
                                            would be more used to them. Because of my age I can remember the days
                                            of inches and feet in Ozland.

                                            Cheers
                                            Bursal
                                          • bursal2
                                            ... Thanks,if I could get 1lt per hour at 95.6% of neutral spirit I would be more than happy. Using 1 takes some of the weight off the column and gives it
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 20, 2008
                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > One inch takeoff from column is plenty for a 2" VM column. You do
                                              > not have to go to 2" takeoff unless you really want to. I'm using
                                              > 20mm takeoff and that's enough to provide 1 liter per hour 95.6%
                                              > neutral stuff.
                                              >
                                              > Cheers, Riku
                                              >
                                              Thanks,if I could get 1lt per hour at 95.6% of neutral spirit I would
                                              be more than happy. Using 1" takes some of the weight off the column
                                              and gives it better balance.

                                              Cheers
                                              Bursal
                                            • bursal2
                                              ... liebig ... to be ... surfaces. ... joiners on ... This ... An update and some questions. I managed to find 2 new, 316 3 piece S/S ball valves with PTFE
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Feb 24, 2008
                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > The restricting gate valve should be in the take-off sidearm to reduce
                                                > > its opening. Once the vapours begin their downward flow into the
                                                liebig
                                                > > condenser section, a valve will do little to restrict them. It would
                                                > > only restrict as a complete shut-off. Otherwise it's a venturi which
                                                > > only speeds up the vapour flow in that section.
                                                > >
                                                > > Make sure you treat all brass parts by pickling as per this
                                                > > message...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/32452
                                                > >
                                                > > A 1" bore liebig will require a couple of copper scrubbies or mesh
                                                to be
                                                > > placed inside to spread the vapour and allow contact with cold
                                                surfaces.
                                                > > Otherwise some vapour will just fall through.
                                                > >
                                                > > If you intend to make the column a break-apart, then put the
                                                joiners on
                                                > > the uppermost sections as per below. Teflon tape the slip-joins.
                                                This
                                                > > will help prevent leakages. A still column and condensers built like
                                                > > this will last you (and probably your descendants) a lifetime. Good
                                                > > luck with your build.
                                                > >
                                                > > Slainte!
                                                > > regards Harry
                                                > > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                                                > > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/>
                                                > >
                                                > Thanks Harry, I thought there was good reason for placing the gate
                                                > valve on the vapour takeoff, now I know.
                                                >
                                                > The liebig will have a ½" bore and the water jacket will be 1", sorry
                                                > my terminology was confusing.
                                                >
                                                > Yes, I am aware of the problems with brass and the need pickling. The
                                                > problem is S/S is very expensive and I would not use 2nd hand gate
                                                > valves, either brass or S/S because you don't know what has been
                                                > through them. I will not use 2nd hand brass for the same reason.
                                                >
                                                > Thanks for diagram of the joins, I was going to put the brazed joint
                                                > on the wrong side.
                                                >
                                                > Cheers
                                                > Bursal
                                                >
                                                An update and some questions.

                                                I managed to find 2 new, 316 3 piece S/S ball valves with PTFE seats,
                                                one 2" and the other is 1" for $100 delivered, that's solved the valve
                                                problem. Slowly gathering all the copper bits and pieces.

                                                Questions:

                                                If I want to use the column for beer stripping can I replace the
                                                condenser head with a stopper and thermometer, at the top of tee for
                                                the vapour takeoff, and remove the copper
                                                packing.

                                                As I am making the column so that it can be dismantled is there any
                                                advantage in using a short column for stripping.

                                                Are the following distances critical, if so can you make some
                                                recommendations? -

                                                From vapour takeoff to condenser.

                                                Length of vapour takeoff.

                                                I am sure I have seen recommendations for distance for packing from
                                                top of boiler and from thermometer but I can't find them, can someone
                                                please enlighten me.

                                                Thanks
                                                Bursal
                                              • abbababbaccc
                                                ... seats, ... valve ... for ... someone ... Stripping and column packing. Based on my experiments you will get much more concentrated head and slightly more
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Feb 25, 2008
                                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bursal2" <bursal@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > An update and some questions.
                                                  >
                                                  > I managed to find 2 new, 316 3 piece S/S ball valves with PTFE
                                                  seats,
                                                  > one 2" and the other is 1" for $100 delivered, that's solved the
                                                  valve
                                                  > problem. Slowly gathering all the copper bits and pieces.
                                                  >
                                                  > Questions:
                                                  >
                                                  > If I want to use the column for beer stripping can I replace the
                                                  > condenser head with a stopper and thermometer, at the top of tee
                                                  for
                                                  > the vapour takeoff, and remove the copper
                                                  > packing.
                                                  >
                                                  > As I am making the column so that it can be dismantled is there any
                                                  > advantage in using a short column for stripping.
                                                  >
                                                  > Are the following distances critical, if so can you make some
                                                  > recommendations? -
                                                  >
                                                  > From vapour takeoff to condenser.
                                                  >
                                                  > Length of vapour takeoff.
                                                  >
                                                  > I am sure I have seen recommendations for distance for packing from
                                                  > top of boiler and from thermometer but I can't find them, can
                                                  someone
                                                  > please enlighten me.
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks
                                                  > Bursal

                                                  Stripping and column packing. Based on my experiments you will get
                                                  much more concentrated head and slightly more concentrated tails if
                                                  you leave the packing in and insulate the column. As the column
                                                  heats up lots of reflux is generated and heads get concentrated.
                                                  After that heat losses are small and there won't be much reflux
                                                  which means only little concentration happens. You can increase the
                                                  reflux by leaning out the insulation but then the speed gets down.

                                                  Cheers, Riku
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