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New Idea?

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  • mstehelin
    Hello All, I have been interested in vacuum stills for awhile. The ease of stripping at low temperatures makes sense to me, and I have a friend who does
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 5, 2007
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      Hello All,
      I have been interested in vacuum stills for awhile. The ease of
      stripping at low temperatures makes sense to me, and I have a friend
      who does essences too.
      Here is the idea:
      Wood workers use a bag for veneering furniture. Could the entire
      still be placed in a heavy plastic bag and vacuum applied? If
      electric heating was used then whole thing could be relatively
      contained, just 1 cord and 2 hoses sticking out. Easily sealed. Theory
      is that the lower temperature would not melt the plastic bags.

      Here is a vacuum veneering site that has free plans on how to create
      your own venturi vacuum pump
      http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm

      What are your thoughts if any?
      Regards
      Mitt
    • Ian
      I ve been thinking about it as well, I think a better way would be too pull the vacuum from the collection jar, and keep the still air tight ... From:
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 5, 2007
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        I've been thinking about it as well,
         
        I think a better way would be too pull the vacuum  from the collection jar, and keep the still air tight
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: mstehelin
        Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:24 AM
        Subject: [Distillers] New Idea?

        Hello All,
        I have been interested in vacuum stills for awhile. The ease of
        stripping at low temperatures makes sense to me, and I have a friend
        who does essences too.
        Here is the idea:
        Wood workers use a bag for veneering furniture. Could the entire
        still be placed in a heavy plastic bag and vacuum applied? If
        electric heating was used then whole thing could be relatively
        contained, just 1 cord and 2 hoses sticking out. Easily sealed. Theory
        is that the lower temperature would not melt the plastic bags.

        Here is a vacuum veneering site that has free plans on how to create
        your own venturi vacuum pump
        http://www.joewoodw orker.com/ veneering/ welcome.htm

        What are your thoughts if any?
        Regards
        Mitt


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        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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      • dearknarl
        I think you might run into problems using conventional condensers at low pressure. For a start, the cooling water will need to be cooler to get the same
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 5, 2007
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          I think you might run into problems using conventional condensers at
          low pressure. For a start, the cooling water will need to be cooler to
          get the same temperature differential, and probably more importantly,
          the vapour getting condensed will be less dense at lower pressure,
          therefore you'll need more surface area to transfer the heat from the
          vapour effectively.

          As a way around those problems (and maybe an added bonus) you might be
          able to return the vapour to normal pressure through a venturi that
          you use to pull the vacuum and collect it at normal pressure. You
          would have to devise a way to separate the vapour from the air stream
          coming from the venturi in place of a condenser (some sort of filter).
          The vapour should have turned back to liquid through the venturi I
          think. Using this technique should make taking cuts easier too,
          because your collection vessel won't be under vacuum.

          What's everyone think?

          Cheers,
          knarl.

          On 12/6/07, Ian <ian@...> wrote:
          > I've been thinking about it as well,
          >
          > I think a better way would be too pull the vacuum from the collection jar,
          > and keep the still air tight
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: mstehelin
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:24 AM
          > Subject: [Distillers] New Idea?
          >
          >
          > Hello All,
          > I have been interested in vacuum stills for awhile. The ease of
          > stripping at low temperatures makes sense to me, and I have a friend
          > who does essences too.
          > Here is the idea:
          > Wood workers use a bag for veneering furniture. Could the entire
          > still be placed in a heavy plastic bag and vacuum applied? If
          > electric heating was used then whole thing could be relatively
          > contained, just 1 cord and 2 hoses sticking out. Easily sealed. Theory
          > is that the lower temperature would not melt the plastic bags.
          >
          > Here is a vacuum veneering site that has free plans on how to create
          > your own venturi vacuum pump
          > http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm
          >
          > What are your thoughts if any?
          > Regards
          > Mitt
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.14/1172 - Release Date:
          > 5/12/2007 8:41 AM
          >
        • bbornais
          The vacuum bag is a bad idea for reasons that I won t bother to get into. Knarl. Increasing the vapour pressure will require more cooling, but this effect is
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 6, 2007
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            The vacuum bag is a bad idea for reasons that I won't bother to get
            into.

            Knarl. Increasing the vapour pressure will require more cooling, but
            this effect is negligible.

            I really do not understand this venturi business you are speaking of,
            so i can't comment on that.

            I have distilled alcohol under vacuum many times, as well as many
            high boiling solvents and oils. If my opinion is worth anything, then
            I must say that you will run into many problems. The major ones will
            be bumping, column flooding, equilibrium disruptions causing poor
            separation, and excessive energy use.

            If you wish to do this, then you need to seal your receiver container
            to the output, and draw a vacuum off of it.

            I don't want to discourage innovative ideas, but vacuum distillation,
            IMHO really sucks.

            If it was worth it for low boiling point solvents, then the industry
            would do it.

            Bryan.



            The vacuum bag is a bad idea for reasons that I won't bother to get
            into.

            Knarl. Increasing the vapour pressure will require more cooling, but
            this effect is negligible.

            I really do not understand this venturi business you are speaking of,
            so i can't comment on that.

            I have distilled alcohol under vacuum many times, as well as many
            high boiling solvents and oils. If my opinion is worth anything, then
            I must say that you will run into many problems. The major ones will
            be bumping, column



            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, dearknarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
            >
            > I think you might run into problems using conventional condensers at
            > low pressure. For a start, the cooling water will need to be cooler
            to
            > get the same temperature differential, and probably more
            importantly,
            > the vapour getting condensed will be less dense at lower pressure,
            > therefore you'll need more surface area to transfer the heat from
            the
            > vapour effectively.
            >
            > As a way around those problems (and maybe an added bonus) you might
            be
            > able to return the vapour to normal pressure through a venturi that
            > you use to pull the vacuum and collect it at normal pressure. You
            > would have to devise a way to separate the vapour from the air
            stream
            > coming from the venturi in place of a condenser (some sort of
            filter).
            > The vapour should have turned back to liquid through the venturi I
            > think. Using this technique should make taking cuts easier too,
            > because your collection vessel won't be under vacuum.
            >
            > What's everyone think?
            >
            > Cheers,
            > knarl.
            >
            > On 12/6/07, Ian <ian@...> wrote:
            > > I've been thinking about it as well,
            > >
            > > I think a better way would be too pull the vacuum from the
            collection jar,
            > > and keep the still air tight
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: mstehelin
            > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:24 AM
            > > Subject: [Distillers] New Idea?
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > > I have been interested in vacuum stills for awhile. The ease of
            > > stripping at low temperatures makes sense to me, and I have a
            friend
            > > who does essences too.
            > > Here is the idea:
            > > Wood workers use a bag for veneering furniture. Could the entire
            > > still be placed in a heavy plastic bag and vacuum applied? If
            > > electric heating was used then whole thing could be relatively
            > > contained, just 1 cord and 2 hoses sticking out. Easily sealed.
            Theory
            > > is that the lower temperature would not melt the plastic bags.
            > >
            > > Here is a vacuum veneering site that has free plans on how to
            create
            > > your own venturi vacuum pump
            > > http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm
            > >
            > > What are your thoughts if any?
            > > Regards
            > > Mitt
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
            ------------
            > >
            > >
            > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.14/1172 - Release
            Date:
            > > 5/12/2007 8:41 AM
            > >
            >
          • mstehelin
            What about vacuum distilling for stripping and a conventional still as a finishing still?
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 6, 2007
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              What about vacuum distilling for stripping and a conventional still
              as a finishing still?


              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bbornais" <bbornais@...> wrote:
              >
              > The vacuum bag is a bad idea for reasons that I won't bother to get
              > into.
              >
              > Knarl. Increasing the vapour pressure will require more cooling, but
              > this effect is negligible.
              >
              > I really do not understand this venturi business you are speaking of,
              > so i can't comment on that.
              >
              > I have distilled alcohol under vacuum many times, as well as many
              > high boiling solvents and oils. If my opinion is worth anything, then
              > I must say that you will run into many problems. The major ones will
              > be bumping, column flooding, equilibrium disruptions causing poor
              > separation, and excessive energy use.
              >
              > If you wish to do this, then you need to seal your receiver container
              > to the output, and draw a vacuum off of it.
              >
              > I don't want to discourage innovative ideas, but vacuum distillation,
              > IMHO really sucks.
              >
              > If it was worth it for low boiling point solvents, then the industry
              > would do it.
              >
              > Bryan.
              >
              >
              >
              > The vacuum bag is a bad idea for reasons that I won't bother to get
              > into.
              >
              > Knarl. Increasing the vapour pressure will require more cooling, but
              > this effect is negligible.
              >
              > I really do not understand this venturi business you are speaking of,
              > so i can't comment on that.
              >
              > I have distilled alcohol under vacuum many times, as well as many
              > high boiling solvents and oils. If my opinion is worth anything, then
              > I must say that you will run into many problems. The major ones will
              > be bumping, column
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, dearknarl <dearknarl@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I think you might run into problems using conventional condensers at
              > > low pressure. For a start, the cooling water will need to be cooler
              > to
              > > get the same temperature differential, and probably more
              > importantly,
              > > the vapour getting condensed will be less dense at lower pressure,
              > > therefore you'll need more surface area to transfer the heat from
              > the
              > > vapour effectively.
              > >
              > > As a way around those problems (and maybe an added bonus) you might
              > be
              > > able to return the vapour to normal pressure through a venturi that
              > > you use to pull the vacuum and collect it at normal pressure. You
              > > would have to devise a way to separate the vapour from the air
              > stream
              > > coming from the venturi in place of a condenser (some sort of
              > filter).
              > > The vapour should have turned back to liquid through the venturi I
              > > think. Using this technique should make taking cuts easier too,
              > > because your collection vessel won't be under vacuum.
              > >
              > > What's everyone think?
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > > knarl.
              > >
              > > On 12/6/07, Ian <ian@> wrote:
              > > > I've been thinking about it as well,
              > > >
              > > > I think a better way would be too pull the vacuum from the
              > collection jar,
              > > > and keep the still air tight
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: mstehelin
              > > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:24 AM
              > > > Subject: [Distillers] New Idea?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hello All,
              > > > I have been interested in vacuum stills for awhile. The ease of
              > > > stripping at low temperatures makes sense to me, and I have a
              > friend
              > > > who does essences too.
              > > > Here is the idea:
              > > > Wood workers use a bag for veneering furniture. Could the entire
              > > > still be placed in a heavy plastic bag and vacuum applied? If
              > > > electric heating was used then whole thing could be relatively
              > > > contained, just 1 cord and 2 hoses sticking out. Easily sealed.
              > Theory
              > > > is that the lower temperature would not melt the plastic bags.
              > > >
              > > > Here is a vacuum veneering site that has free plans on how to
              > create
              > > > your own venturi vacuum pump
              > > > http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm
              > > >
              > > > What are your thoughts if any?
              > > > Regards
              > > > Mitt
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
              > ------------
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.14/1172 - Release
              > Date:
              > > > 5/12/2007 8:41 AM
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • bbornais
              ... I use propane to strip, and electic element to fractionate. I am not saying not to construct such an apparatus, I am just saying taht I don t think it is a
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 6, 2007
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                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...> wrote:
                >
                > What about vacuum distilling for stripping and a conventional still
                > as a finishing still?

                I use propane to strip, and electic element to fractionate.

                I am not saying not to construct such an apparatus, I am just saying
                taht I don't think it is a good idea, because there are only downsides
                in terms of efficiency, ease of use, and.....ummm...

                oh yeah!

                ...It sucks vacuum distilling.

                The main problem to overcome, besides drawing an efficient vacuum to
                start, and doing so for a reasonable cost, would be to agitate the
                volume of liquid in the boiler and thereby prevent
                boilup/flooding/burping/puking problems.

                To do this, you need to stir it somehow (mechanical or magnetic), or
                provide sufficient sites for nucleation (adding in a rough surfaced
                material such as ceramic peices, or other inert porous solid material).

                Bryan.
              • Harry
                ... Why? What s to gain? Slainte! regards Harry
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 6, 2007
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                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > What about vacuum distilling for stripping and a conventional still
                  > as a finishing still?



                  Why? What's to gain?


                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry
                • bbornais
                  ... Yeah. That is what I was trying to say. :) But it s your progressive group Harry! Just don t anyone hurt themselves so bad that the media finds out, eh?
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 6, 2007
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                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > What about vacuum distilling for stripping and a conventional still
                    > > as a finishing still?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Why? What's to gain?
                    >
                    >
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry


                    Yeah. That is what I was trying to say. :)

                    But it's your progressive group Harry!

                    Just don't anyone hurt themselves so bad that the media finds out, eh?

                    Canada Rocks.

                    Bryan.
                  • Andrew
                    ... I would guess using less electricity would be the advantage. But I can t see it outweighing the cost of set up. I only set up my little guy about once a
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 6, 2007
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                      > Harry wrote:
                      >
                      > Why? What's to gain?
                      >

                      I would guess using less electricity would
                      be the advantage. But I can't see it
                      outweighing the cost of set up.

                      I only set up my little guy about once a
                      year and that makes enough to keep me
                      happy for 10-12 months. If I used $5 less
                      in electicity per run and cost $500 to
                      build then it would break even in only
                      100 years :S

                      However - sometimes money/cost isn't the
                      motivation. I have always had the crazy
                      notion of setting up a vacuum unit with
                      the boiler and condensor heated/cooled
                      by a heat pump just for the hell of it
                      and to see if it could be done.

                      Just need to pinch one of them new
                      fandangled heat pump hot water systems
                      from somewhere to have a go with.
                    • dearknarl
                      ... A warm fuzzy feeling =P Anyway... someone asked what a venturi was all about. It s basically a tube with a constriction to speed up velocity of whatever
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 6, 2007
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                        >
                        > Why? What's to gain?
                        >
                        > Slainte!
                        > regards Harry
                        >

                        A warm fuzzy feeling =P


                        Anyway... someone asked what a venturi was all about. It's basically a
                        tube with a constriction to speed up velocity of whatever you pass
                        through it and creates low pressure using Bernoulli's principle. If
                        you tap the constricted bit, it sucks through the tapping hole into
                        the flow.

                        So, if you use air from a compressor, you can suck product into the
                        air flow. Running a venturi from a compressor to create a vacuum is
                        probably VERY inefficient, but I was just laterally thinking about the
                        problem of condensing at low pressures.

                        Cheers,
                        knarl.
                      • bbornais
                        I was not confused on what a venturi was, only about how you would utilize it. In order to pull a vacuum from a venturi, you would need to run water through a
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 8, 2007
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                          I was not confused on what a venturi was, only about how you would
                          utilize it. In order to pull a vacuum from a venturi, you would need
                          to run water through a constriction, not air from a compresser. That
                          idea is not plausible.

                          Bryan.


                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, dearknarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Why? What's to gain?
                          > >
                          > > Slainte!
                          > > regards Harry
                          > >
                          >
                          > A warm fuzzy feeling =P
                          >
                          >
                          > Anyway... someone asked what a venturi was all about. It's
                          basically a
                          > tube with a constriction to speed up velocity of whatever you pass
                          > through it and creates low pressure using Bernoulli's principle. If
                          > you tap the constricted bit, it sucks through the tapping hole into
                          > the flow.
                          >
                          > So, if you use air from a compressor, you can suck product into the
                          > air flow. Running a venturi from a compressor to create a vacuum is
                          > probably VERY inefficient, but I was just laterally thinking about
                          the
                          > problem of condensing at low pressures.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > knarl.
                          >
                        • Trid
                          ... Not true. Air (and sometimes steam) through a venturi is a commonly applied method of drawing a vacuum. It s frequently utilized in steam condensers.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 8, 2007
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                            --- bbornais <bbornais@...> wrote:

                            > I was not confused on what a venturi was, only about how you would
                            > utilize it. In order to pull a vacuum from a venturi, you would need
                            > to run water through a constriction, not air from a compresser. That
                            > idea is not plausible.
                            >
                            > Bryan.

                            Not true. Air (and sometimes steam) through a venturi is a commonly applied
                            method of drawing a vacuum. It's frequently utilized in steam condensers. The
                            industry term is "air ejector." In fact, it actually makes the condenser work
                            more efficiently.

                            Trid
                            -worked with them for over 4 years
                          • bbornais
                            I did not say that it was not possible. The idea is simply not plausible. This is not industry. ... applied ... condensers. The ... condenser work
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 8, 2007
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                              I did not say that it was not possible. The idea is simply not
                              plausible.

                              This is not industry.
                              > >
                              > > Bryan.
                              >
                              > Not true. Air (and sometimes steam) through a venturi is a commonly
                              applied
                              > method of drawing a vacuum. It's frequently utilized in steam
                              condensers. The
                              > industry term is "air ejector." In fact, it actually makes the
                              condenser work
                              > more efficiently.
                              >
                              > Trid
                              > -worked with them for over 4 years
                              >
                            • dearknarl
                              The original post had a link to a home made vacuum bag system (with build instructions) utilising a venturi running from a compressor. knarl.
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 9, 2007
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                                The original post had a link to a home made vacuum bag system (with
                                build instructions) utilising a venturi running from a compressor.

                                knarl.

                                On 12/9/07, bbornais <bbornais@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I did not say that it was not possible. The idea is simply not
                                > plausible.
                                >
                                > This is not industry.
                                > > >
                                > > > Bryan.
                                > >
                                > > Not true. Air (and sometimes steam) through a venturi is a commonly
                                > applied
                                > > method of drawing a vacuum. It's frequently utilized in steam
                                > condensers. The
                                > > industry term is "air ejector." In fact, it actually makes the
                                > condenser work
                                > > more efficiently.
                                > >
                                > > Trid
                                > > -worked with them for over 4 years
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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