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Re: StillDrinkin.com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

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  • rye_junkie
    Sherman is correct. I have a friend (although not a close friend) in law enforcement that I trust. I threw a hypothetical question at him the other day and
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
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      Sherman is correct. I have a friend (although not a close friend) in
      law enforcement that I trust. I threw a hypothetical question at him
      the other day and asked how he felt about people making moonshine as a
      hobby. His reply was that it was none of his business as long as you
      were within the 5 gallon per year limit. This was a law enforcement
      officer of 15 years saying that he was pretty sure the law allowed you
      to make 5 gallons per year of shine for personal use. I asked him to
      check it out for me and he immediately got on the phone to a ATF agent
      friend of his and asked the guy to clarify the issue for him. My name
      was never mentioned during this. The agent replied on speaker phone
      that it was in fact illegal to own a still in the US without a permit.
      Possession of less than 3 gallons of shine is a misdemeanor and over a
      felony I believe is what he said. Afterward my friend smiled at me
      and said that we should forget that we had the conversation to begin
      with. This is not the first person in law enforcement to tell me they
      thought it was legal. I had an ATF agent a few years ago when i was
      still toying with the idea tell me that she "THOUGHT" it was legal to
      make a small amount for personal use.
      The bottom line seems to be that some if not a lot of law enforcement
      think that shine is like wine and beer. You can make a little you
      just cant sell it. Simply not true. But it does seem to be a bit
      fuzzy to alot of people. We can Buy and sell books on the subject,
      We can buy and sell stills on the internet and Ebay legally?, We can
      buy products legally that are specific to the hobby of illegal
      distilling, we can legally discuss what we illegally do on this
      forum. But if we get caught were in trouble. Sounds like entrapment
      to me. As alot of have said before. Maybe they just don't bother
      with us anymore. I will continue on as will most of us who enjoy this
      hobby. But I will always be looking over my shoulder while operating
      my still. I will also be keeping the door shut, and the exhaust fan
      on high.

      Mason

      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
      >
      > I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a
      > case where it is illegal.
      > This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
      > 244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
      > No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or knowingly
      > transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
      > alcoholic beverages.
      > Effective: October 1, 1942
      > History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October
      > 1, 1942, from Ky.
      > Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
      > 244.990 Penalties.
      > (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
      > conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
      > conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third and
      > each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C felony.
      >
      > Just thought your should know.
      >
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello James,
      > >
      > > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States.
      Operating the
      > > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
      > > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
      > distilleries is not
      > > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
      > number' to
      > > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still.
      This may
      > > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
      > Remember
      > > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
      > >
      > > Peggy
    • harry day
      I bought the turbo master combo last January from Still Drinkin.com and it took a few phone calls and a couple months but I did receive my still. They were
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
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        I bought the turbo  master combo last January from Still Drinkin.com  and it took a few phone calls and a couple months but I did receive my still. They were very helpful most of the time but when I ordered other items I had a lot of trouble getting them and I had to have paypal help me out. They never send items out when they say they will.  They dont seem to be very organized and have no way to keep track of their orders or shipping. Also when talking to them most of the time it is hard to hear them for all the back ground noise and due to the fact they seem to be on cell phones........

        Sherman <pintoshine@...> wrote:
        I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a
        case where it is illegal.
        This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
        244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
        No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or knowingly
        transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
        alcoholic beverages.
        Effective: October 1, 1942
        History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October
        1, 1942, from Ky.
        Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
        244.990 Penalties.
        (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
        conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
        conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third and
        each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C felony.

        Just thought your should know.

        --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello James,
        >
        > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States. Operating the
        > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
        > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
        distilleries is not
        > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
        number' to
        > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still. This may
        > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
        Remember
        > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
        >
        > Peggy
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogro ups.com] On
        > Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
        > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:41 PM
        > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
        > Subject: [Distillers] Re: StillDrinkin. com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
        >
        > Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to report being ripped of for
        > purchasing a still on the internet in a country where distilling is
        > illegal without permit (Especially to an agency affiliated with the
        > FBI or ABC). At least that is IMHO and maybe a bit paranoid.
        >
        > This does sound like the perfect rip-off scam though - advertising
        > stills that are illegal to own without a permit then not delivering -
        > knowing that most people would be too scared to report them to the
        > better business bureau or those listed below (sigh :(:(:(.
        >
        > Vino es Veritas,
        > Jim.
        >
        > But thankyou for posting this George, maybe some will learn from your
        > mistake.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@ > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "georgetoddly" <georgetoddly@ >
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Update:
        > > >
        > > > I ordered my Venom on Sept 5th and they told me it would ship in 3
        > > > days. after three days they said 10 days, after ten days they
        > said 15
        > > > days, after 15 days they said 20 days, on Oct 5th after several
        > calls
        > > > i told them i was done and to just recredit my account... the guy
        > on
        > > > the phone refused, i said it's ok my credit card company would
        > get my
        > > > money for me, at which point he very obviously did the old "make a
        > > > static noise with your voice" and said he was losing me over and
        > over
        > > > then hung up on me. Never to be heard from again. Now it is Dec
        > 3rd
        > > > and the credit card company has closed the case in my favor. I
        > called
        > > > them right after the guy hung up on me and they took my money from
        > > > their account immediately, but it takes them 2 months to finalize
        > it.
        > > >
        > > > I'm just updating in the off chance someone else will read this
        > when
        > > > they are thinking about buying from www.stilldrinkin. com . These
        > guys
        > > > are just a scam, don't waste your time. I got my money back but it
        > > > took forever. If you are reading this and your just starting out
        > in
        > > > distilling and wondering what to do, start here:
        > > > http://homedistille r.org/ there is a ton of info there including
        > > > reputable places to purchase a still.
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Go further. Report them for internet fraud...links below my sig.
        > >
        > > Slainte!
        > > regards Harry
        > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) <http://www.ic3. gov/> The
        > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) is a partnership between the
        > > Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) ... FBI Fraud Flyer adobe
        > pdf. FBI
        > > Fraud Flyer ...
        > > www.ic3.gov/ - 7k - Cached
        > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
        > q=cache:4ALJ8kLVMNU J:www.ic3. gov/+report+ i\
        > > nternet+fraud& hl=en&ct= clnk&cd=1> - Similar pages
        > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
        > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
        > > ted:www.ic3. gov/> [PDF] 2005 IC3 Annual Internet Fraud Report
        > > <http://www.ic3. gov/media/ annualreport/ 2005_IC3Report. pdf> File
        > > Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
        > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
        > q=cache:Ansj8lqy5k4 J:www.ic3. gov/media/ ann\
        > >
        > ualreport/2005_ IC3Report. pdf+report+ internet+ fraud&hl= en&ct=clnk& cd=2>
        > > The Internet Crime Complaint Center. 2005 Internet Fraud Crime
        > Report:.
        > > January 1, 2005-December 31, 2005. Executive Summary. In December
        > 2003,
        > > the Internet ...
        > > www.ic3.gov/ media/annualrepo rt/2005_IC3Repor t.pdf - Similar pages
        > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
        > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
        > > ted:www.ic3. gov/media/ annualreport/ 2005_IC3Report. pdf> Internet
        > Fraud
        > > Information: USA.gov
        > > <http://www.usa. gov/Citizen/ Topics/Internet_ Fraud.shtml> Report
        > both
        > > civil and criminal complaints, such as Internet, telemarketing, and
        > > other consumer-related fraud through the Consumer Sentinel
        > database. ...
        > > www.usa.gov/ Citizen/Topics/ Internet_ Fraud.shtml - 31k - Cached
        > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
        > q=cache:9HGEchA5N0E J:www.usa. gov/Citizen/ T\
        > >
        > opics/Internet_ Fraud.shtml+ report+internet+ fraud&hl= en&ct=clnk& cd=3>
        > -
        > > Similar pages
        > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
        > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
        > > ted:www.usa. gov/Citizen/ Topics/Internet_ Fraud.shtml>
        > cybercrime.gov
        > > <http://www.usdoj. gov/criminal/ cybercrime/ reporting. htm>
        > Citizens
        > > who are aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices
        > of
        > > ... Child Exploitation and Internet Fraud matters that have a mail
        > nexus
        > > ...
        > > www.usdoj.gov/ criminal/ cybercrime/ reporting. htm - 17k - Cached
        > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
        > q=cache:F4XyW6H1r78 J:www.usdoj. gov/crimina\
        > >
        > l/cybercrime/ reporting. htm+report+ internet+ fraud&hl= en&ct=clnk& cd=4>
        > -
        > > Similar pages
        > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
        > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
        > > ted:www.usdoj. gov/criminal/ cybercrime/ reporting. htm>
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Distillers list archives :
        > http://infoarchive. net/sgroup/ distillers/
        >
        > FAQ, Howto distil etc. :
        > http://homedistille r.org
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >


      • jamesonbeam1
        Hi Peggy, Yes you are sort of correct - it is legal to own a still for decorative purposes like on a wall or in a salon or as a lamp (i ment to say own a still
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 5, 2007
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          Hi Peggy,

          Yes you are sort of correct - it is legal to own a still for
          decorative purposes like on a wall or in a salon or as a lamp (i ment
          to say own a still without permit ot operate)...

          However, if by some remote chance the ATF or my friendly local
          sheriffs, of whom ive met many, did come into my house (which they
          have on occasion from other problems) with a search warrent and found
          2 - 12 gallon primary fermenters filled with corn mash in various
          stages of fermentation, along with proof and wine hydrometers, yeast,
          acid blend, yeast nutrients, iodine, PH test strips, glycerine, mason
          jars (some filled with shine), and many pounds of sugar, corn meal,
          flaked corn, liquid malt, etc,etc... along with disassembled still
          components, then....

          I believe i would be in deep caca from a little known legal term
          known as "intent to process...." as stated below.

          But thanks for the info.

          Vino es Veritas,
          Jim.



          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Sherman is correct. I have a friend (although not a close friend)
          in
          > law enforcement that I trust. I threw a hypothetical question at
          him
          > the other day and asked how he felt about people making moonshine
          as a
          > hobby. His reply was that it was none of his business as long as
          you
          > were within the 5 gallon per year limit. This was a law enforcement
          > officer of 15 years saying that he was pretty sure the law allowed
          you
          > to make 5 gallons per year of shine for personal use. I asked him
          to
          > check it out for me and he immediately got on the phone to a ATF
          agent
          > friend of his and asked the guy to clarify the issue for him. My
          name
          > was never mentioned during this. The agent replied on speaker phone
          > that it was in fact illegal to own a still in the US without a
          permit.
          > Possession of less than 3 gallons of shine is a misdemeanor and
          over a
          > felony I believe is what he said. Afterward my friend smiled at me
          > and said that we should forget that we had the conversation to begin
          > with. This is not the first person in law enforcement to tell me
          they
          > thought it was legal. I had an ATF agent a few years ago when i was
          > still toying with the idea tell me that she "THOUGHT" it was legal
          to
          > make a small amount for personal use.
          > The bottom line seems to be that some if not a lot of law
          enforcement
          > think that shine is like wine and beer. You can make a little you
          > just cant sell it. Simply not true. But it does seem to be a bit
          > fuzzy to alot of people. We can Buy and sell books on the subject,
          > We can buy and sell stills on the internet and Ebay legally?, We
          can
          > buy products legally that are specific to the hobby of illegal
          > distilling, we can legally discuss what we illegally do on this
          > forum. But if we get caught were in trouble. Sounds like entrapment
          > to me. As alot of have said before. Maybe they just don't bother
          > with us anymore. I will continue on as will most of us who enjoy
          this
          > hobby. But I will always be looking over my shoulder while
          operating
          > my still. I will also be keeping the door shut, and the exhaust fan
          > on high.
          >
          > Mason
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example
          of a
          > > case where it is illegal.
          > > This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
          -
          > > 244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
          > > No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or
          knowingly
          > > transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
          > > alcoholic beverages.
          > > Effective: October 1, 1942
          > > History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective
          October
          > > 1, 1942, from Ky.
          > > Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
          -
          > > 244.990 Penalties.
          > > (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
          > > conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
          > > conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third
          and
          > > each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C
          felony.
          > >
          > > Just thought your should know.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hello James,
          > > >
          > > > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States.
          > Operating the
          > > > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills
          and the
          > > > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
          > > distilleries is not
          > > > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
          > > number' to
          > > > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still.
          > This may
          > > > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
          > > Remember
          > > > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
          > > >
          > > > Peggy
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          ... -snip - Remember - this country was founded by a bunch of rebels. Peggy Yup, guess you are so correct there too. I is somewhat of a rebel lol :):):) Keep
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@> wrote:

            -snip -
            Remember -
            this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.

            Peggy

            Yup, guess you are so correct there too.
            I is somewhat of a rebel lol :):):)

            Keep the faith and Vino es Veritas,
            Jim.
          • Derek Hamlet
            ... It s important to remember how many of our laws about distilling came into effect. It has little to do with prohibition, public health or any of the other
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 5, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              At 07:11 AM 12/5/2007, you wrote:
              >Remember -
              >this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.

              It's important to remember how many of our laws about distilling came
              into effect.
              It has little to do with prohibition, public health or any of the
              other BS arguments put forward by spin doctors and politicians.
              In the early days, (when George Washington still had a still) new
              settlers from Europe headed out into the hinterlands. Many of these
              people came from European roots with strong distilling traditions
              such as the Irish.
              Roads were little more than tracks.
              These folks often ended up farming and corn was fairly easy to grow.
              Getting the product to market involved wagons, animals and tracks
              that broke wheels and terrain that was daunting.
              Some folks distilled their product into alcohol and found not only
              could a mule carry two barrels of alcohol to market, the price was
              virtually the same as the price for corn. This was a no brainer.
              Enter the established distillers, the concept of lobbying, government
              (even though rebel raised) eager for taxes and you have a recipe for
              making distilling illegal.
              Bastards!
              I'd be guessing the annual costs to society of alcohol abuse of
              highly purified products produced by rich bastard distilling
              companies is far more than the social ills of "freelancers" over the
              entire history of the USof A.
              My apologies to all the non North Americans who chose to read
              this. I'm guessing the histories in Aus, NZ, Sweden or wherever is
              much the same.
              The good news for those of us that make product for ourselves and
              close friends is that there are way more important social ills for
              the forces of law and order to investigate than whether you and I are
              producing a few gallons of hooch every year.
              I never give it a thought, but I am also circumspect.


              Derek
              "From the cradle to the crypt it's a mighty short trip
              So you'd better get it while you can!"
              -from the Ballad of Carl Martin by Steve Goodman
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