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RE: [Distillers] Re: StillDrinkin.com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

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  • Peggy
    Hello James, Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States. Operating the still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
      Hello James,

      Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States. Operating the
      still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
      function is optional. The system of sales reporting for distilleries is not
      mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique number' to
      be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still. This may
      sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us. Remember
      this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.

      Peggy

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
      Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:41 PM
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: StillDrinkin.com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

      Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to report being ripped of for
      purchasing a still on the internet in a country where distilling is
      illegal without permit (Especially to an agency affiliated with the
      FBI or ABC). At least that is IMHO and maybe a bit paranoid.

      This does sound like the perfect rip-off scam though - advertising
      stills that are illegal to own without a permit then not delivering -
      knowing that most people would be too scared to report them to the
      better business bureau or those listed below (sigh :(:(:(.

      Vino es Veritas,
      Jim.

      But thankyou for posting this George, maybe some will learn from your
      mistake.



      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "georgetoddly" <georgetoddly@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Update:
      > >
      > > I ordered my Venom on Sept 5th and they told me it would ship in 3
      > > days. after three days they said 10 days, after ten days they
      said 15
      > > days, after 15 days they said 20 days, on Oct 5th after several
      calls
      > > i told them i was done and to just recredit my account... the guy
      on
      > > the phone refused, i said it's ok my credit card company would
      get my
      > > money for me, at which point he very obviously did the old "make a
      > > static noise with your voice" and said he was losing me over and
      over
      > > then hung up on me. Never to be heard from again. Now it is Dec
      3rd
      > > and the credit card company has closed the case in my favor. I
      called
      > > them right after the guy hung up on me and they took my money from
      > > their account immediately, but it takes them 2 months to finalize
      it.
      > >
      > > I'm just updating in the off chance someone else will read this
      when
      > > they are thinking about buying from www.stilldrinkin.com . These
      guys
      > > are just a scam, don't waste your time. I got my money back but it
      > > took forever. If you are reading this and your just starting out
      in
      > > distilling and wondering what to do, start here:
      > > http://homedistiller.org/ there is a ton of info there including
      > > reputable places to purchase a still.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Go further. Report them for internet fraud...links below my sig.
      >
      > Slainte!
      > regards Harry
      > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) <http://www.ic3.gov/> The
      > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) is a partnership between the
      > Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) ... FBI Fraud Flyer adobe
      pdf. FBI
      > Fraud Flyer ...
      > www.ic3.gov/ - 7k - Cached
      > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
      q=cache:4ALJ8kLVMNUJ:www.ic3.gov/+report+i\
      > nternet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1> - Similar pages
      > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
      10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
      > ted:www.ic3.gov/> [PDF] 2005 IC3 Annual Internet Fraud Report
      > <http://www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> File
      > Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
      > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
      q=cache:Ansj8lqy5k4J:www.ic3.gov/media/ann\
      >
      ualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2>
      > The Internet Crime Complaint Center. 2005 Internet Fraud Crime
      Report:.
      > January 1, 2005-December 31, 2005. Executive Summary. In December
      2003,
      > the Internet ...
      > www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf - Similar pages
      > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
      10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
      > ted:www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> Internet
      Fraud
      > Information: USA.gov
      > <http://www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml> Report
      both
      > civil and criminal complaints, such as Internet, telemarketing, and
      > other consumer-related fraud through the Consumer Sentinel
      database. ...
      > www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml - 31k - Cached
      > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
      q=cache:9HGEchA5N0EJ:www.usa.gov/Citizen/T\
      >
      opics/Internet_Fraud.shtml+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3>
      -
      > Similar pages
      > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
      10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
      > ted:www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml>
      cybercrime.gov
      > <http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
      Citizens
      > who are aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices
      of
      > ... Child Exploitation and Internet Fraud matters that have a mail
      nexus
      > ...
      > www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm - 17k - Cached
      > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
      q=cache:F4XyW6H1r78J:www.usdoj.gov/crimina\
      >
      l/cybercrime/reporting.htm+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4>
      -
      > Similar pages
      > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
      10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
      > ted:www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
      >




      Distillers list archives :
      http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/distillers/

      FAQ, Howto distil etc. :
      http://homedistiller.org
      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • sonum norbu
      Good onya Harry. These bastards need to have their wings clipped. blanik Most of the troubles of the world are caused by human beings . (Shakyamuni Buddha)
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
        Good onya Harry. These bastards need to have their wings clipped.

        blanik

        "Most of the troubles of the world are caused by human beings". (Shakyamuni Buddha)

        SOARING, SAILING AND SKYDIVING web page
        http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/cloudbase/



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      • Sherman
        I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a case where it is illegal. This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
          I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a
          case where it is illegal.
          This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
          -------------------------------------------------------------------
          244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
          No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or knowingly
          transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
          alcoholic beverages.
          Effective: October 1, 1942
          History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October
          1, 1942, from Ky.
          Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
          -------------------------------------------------------------------
          244.990 Penalties.
          (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
          conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
          conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third and
          each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C felony.

          Just thought your should know.


          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello James,
          >
          > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States. Operating the
          > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
          > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
          distilleries is not
          > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
          number' to
          > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still. This may
          > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
          Remember
          > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
          >
          > Peggy
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
          > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:41 PM
          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Distillers] Re: StillDrinkin.com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
          >
          > Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to report being ripped of for
          > purchasing a still on the internet in a country where distilling is
          > illegal without permit (Especially to an agency affiliated with the
          > FBI or ABC). At least that is IMHO and maybe a bit paranoid.
          >
          > This does sound like the perfect rip-off scam though - advertising
          > stills that are illegal to own without a permit then not delivering -
          > knowing that most people would be too scared to report them to the
          > better business bureau or those listed below (sigh :(:(:(.
          >
          > Vino es Veritas,
          > Jim.
          >
          > But thankyou for posting this George, maybe some will learn from your
          > mistake.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "georgetoddly" <georgetoddly@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Update:
          > > >
          > > > I ordered my Venom on Sept 5th and they told me it would ship in 3
          > > > days. after three days they said 10 days, after ten days they
          > said 15
          > > > days, after 15 days they said 20 days, on Oct 5th after several
          > calls
          > > > i told them i was done and to just recredit my account... the guy
          > on
          > > > the phone refused, i said it's ok my credit card company would
          > get my
          > > > money for me, at which point he very obviously did the old "make a
          > > > static noise with your voice" and said he was losing me over and
          > over
          > > > then hung up on me. Never to be heard from again. Now it is Dec
          > 3rd
          > > > and the credit card company has closed the case in my favor. I
          > called
          > > > them right after the guy hung up on me and they took my money from
          > > > their account immediately, but it takes them 2 months to finalize
          > it.
          > > >
          > > > I'm just updating in the off chance someone else will read this
          > when
          > > > they are thinking about buying from www.stilldrinkin.com . These
          > guys
          > > > are just a scam, don't waste your time. I got my money back but it
          > > > took forever. If you are reading this and your just starting out
          > in
          > > > distilling and wondering what to do, start here:
          > > > http://homedistiller.org/ there is a ton of info there including
          > > > reputable places to purchase a still.
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Go further. Report them for internet fraud...links below my sig.
          > >
          > > Slainte!
          > > regards Harry
          > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) <http://www.ic3.gov/> The
          > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) is a partnership between the
          > > Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) ... FBI Fraud Flyer adobe
          > pdf. FBI
          > > Fraud Flyer ...
          > > www.ic3.gov/ - 7k - Cached
          > > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
          > q=cache:4ALJ8kLVMNUJ:www.ic3.gov/+report+i\
          > > nternet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1> - Similar pages
          > > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
          > 10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
          > > ted:www.ic3.gov/> [PDF] 2005 IC3 Annual Internet Fraud Report
          > > <http://www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> File
          > > Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
          > > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
          > q=cache:Ansj8lqy5k4J:www.ic3.gov/media/ann\
          > >
          > ualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2>
          > > The Internet Crime Complaint Center. 2005 Internet Fraud Crime
          > Report:.
          > > January 1, 2005-December 31, 2005. Executive Summary. In December
          > 2003,
          > > the Internet ...
          > > www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf - Similar pages
          > > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
          > 10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
          > > ted:www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> Internet
          > Fraud
          > > Information: USA.gov
          > > <http://www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml> Report
          > both
          > > civil and criminal complaints, such as Internet, telemarketing, and
          > > other consumer-related fraud through the Consumer Sentinel
          > database. ...
          > > www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml - 31k - Cached
          > > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
          > q=cache:9HGEchA5N0EJ:www.usa.gov/Citizen/T\
          > >
          > opics/Internet_Fraud.shtml+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3>
          > -
          > > Similar pages
          > > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
          > 10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
          > > ted:www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml>
          > cybercrime.gov
          > > <http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
          > Citizens
          > > who are aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices
          > of
          > > ... Child Exploitation and Internet Fraud matters that have a mail
          > nexus
          > > ...
          > > www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm - 17k - Cached
          > > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
          > q=cache:F4XyW6H1r78J:www.usdoj.gov/crimina\
          > >
          > l/cybercrime/reporting.htm+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4>
          > -
          > > Similar pages
          > > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
          > 10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
          > > ted:www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Distillers list archives :
          > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/distillers/
          >
          > FAQ, Howto distil etc. :
          > http://homedistiller.org
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
        • rye_junkie
          Sherman is correct. I have a friend (although not a close friend) in law enforcement that I trust. I threw a hypothetical question at him the other day and
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
            Sherman is correct. I have a friend (although not a close friend) in
            law enforcement that I trust. I threw a hypothetical question at him
            the other day and asked how he felt about people making moonshine as a
            hobby. His reply was that it was none of his business as long as you
            were within the 5 gallon per year limit. This was a law enforcement
            officer of 15 years saying that he was pretty sure the law allowed you
            to make 5 gallons per year of shine for personal use. I asked him to
            check it out for me and he immediately got on the phone to a ATF agent
            friend of his and asked the guy to clarify the issue for him. My name
            was never mentioned during this. The agent replied on speaker phone
            that it was in fact illegal to own a still in the US without a permit.
            Possession of less than 3 gallons of shine is a misdemeanor and over a
            felony I believe is what he said. Afterward my friend smiled at me
            and said that we should forget that we had the conversation to begin
            with. This is not the first person in law enforcement to tell me they
            thought it was legal. I had an ATF agent a few years ago when i was
            still toying with the idea tell me that she "THOUGHT" it was legal to
            make a small amount for personal use.
            The bottom line seems to be that some if not a lot of law enforcement
            think that shine is like wine and beer. You can make a little you
            just cant sell it. Simply not true. But it does seem to be a bit
            fuzzy to alot of people. We can Buy and sell books on the subject,
            We can buy and sell stills on the internet and Ebay legally?, We can
            buy products legally that are specific to the hobby of illegal
            distilling, we can legally discuss what we illegally do on this
            forum. But if we get caught were in trouble. Sounds like entrapment
            to me. As alot of have said before. Maybe they just don't bother
            with us anymore. I will continue on as will most of us who enjoy this
            hobby. But I will always be looking over my shoulder while operating
            my still. I will also be keeping the door shut, and the exhaust fan
            on high.

            Mason

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
            >
            > I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a
            > case where it is illegal.
            > This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            > 244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
            > No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or knowingly
            > transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
            > alcoholic beverages.
            > Effective: October 1, 1942
            > History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October
            > 1, 1942, from Ky.
            > Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            > 244.990 Penalties.
            > (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
            > conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
            > conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third and
            > each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C felony.
            >
            > Just thought your should know.
            >
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello James,
            > >
            > > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States.
            Operating the
            > > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
            > > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
            > distilleries is not
            > > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
            > number' to
            > > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still.
            This may
            > > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
            > Remember
            > > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
            > >
            > > Peggy
          • harry day
            I bought the turbo master combo last January from Still Drinkin.com and it took a few phone calls and a couple months but I did receive my still. They were
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
              I bought the turbo  master combo last January from Still Drinkin.com  and it took a few phone calls and a couple months but I did receive my still. They were very helpful most of the time but when I ordered other items I had a lot of trouble getting them and I had to have paypal help me out. They never send items out when they say they will.  They dont seem to be very organized and have no way to keep track of their orders or shipping. Also when talking to them most of the time it is hard to hear them for all the back ground noise and due to the fact they seem to be on cell phones........

              Sherman <pintoshine@...> wrote:
              I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a
              case where it is illegal.
              This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
              244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
              No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or knowingly
              transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
              alcoholic beverages.
              Effective: October 1, 1942
              History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October
              1, 1942, from Ky.
              Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
              244.990 Penalties.
              (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
              conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
              conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third and
              each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C felony.

              Just thought your should know.

              --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello James,
              >
              > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States. Operating the
              > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
              > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
              distilleries is not
              > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
              number' to
              > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still. This may
              > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
              Remember
              > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
              >
              > Peggy
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogro ups.com] On
              > Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
              > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:41 PM
              > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
              > Subject: [Distillers] Re: StillDrinkin. com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
              >
              > Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to report being ripped of for
              > purchasing a still on the internet in a country where distilling is
              > illegal without permit (Especially to an agency affiliated with the
              > FBI or ABC). At least that is IMHO and maybe a bit paranoid.
              >
              > This does sound like the perfect rip-off scam though - advertising
              > stills that are illegal to own without a permit then not delivering -
              > knowing that most people would be too scared to report them to the
              > better business bureau or those listed below (sigh :(:(:(.
              >
              > Vino es Veritas,
              > Jim.
              >
              > But thankyou for posting this George, maybe some will learn from your
              > mistake.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@ > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "georgetoddly" <georgetoddly@ >
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Update:
              > > >
              > > > I ordered my Venom on Sept 5th and they told me it would ship in 3
              > > > days. after three days they said 10 days, after ten days they
              > said 15
              > > > days, after 15 days they said 20 days, on Oct 5th after several
              > calls
              > > > i told them i was done and to just recredit my account... the guy
              > on
              > > > the phone refused, i said it's ok my credit card company would
              > get my
              > > > money for me, at which point he very obviously did the old "make a
              > > > static noise with your voice" and said he was losing me over and
              > over
              > > > then hung up on me. Never to be heard from again. Now it is Dec
              > 3rd
              > > > and the credit card company has closed the case in my favor. I
              > called
              > > > them right after the guy hung up on me and they took my money from
              > > > their account immediately, but it takes them 2 months to finalize
              > it.
              > > >
              > > > I'm just updating in the off chance someone else will read this
              > when
              > > > they are thinking about buying from www.stilldrinkin. com . These
              > guys
              > > > are just a scam, don't waste your time. I got my money back but it
              > > > took forever. If you are reading this and your just starting out
              > in
              > > > distilling and wondering what to do, start here:
              > > > http://homedistille r.org/ there is a ton of info there including
              > > > reputable places to purchase a still.
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Go further. Report them for internet fraud...links below my sig.
              > >
              > > Slainte!
              > > regards Harry
              > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) <http://www.ic3. gov/> The
              > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) is a partnership between the
              > > Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) ... FBI Fraud Flyer adobe
              > pdf. FBI
              > > Fraud Flyer ...
              > > www.ic3.gov/ - 7k - Cached
              > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
              > q=cache:4ALJ8kLVMNU J:www.ic3. gov/+report+ i\
              > > nternet+fraud& hl=en&ct= clnk&cd=1> - Similar pages
              > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
              > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
              > > ted:www.ic3. gov/> [PDF] 2005 IC3 Annual Internet Fraud Report
              > > <http://www.ic3. gov/media/ annualreport/ 2005_IC3Report. pdf> File
              > > Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
              > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
              > q=cache:Ansj8lqy5k4 J:www.ic3. gov/media/ ann\
              > >
              > ualreport/2005_ IC3Report. pdf+report+ internet+ fraud&hl= en&ct=clnk& cd=2>
              > > The Internet Crime Complaint Center. 2005 Internet Fraud Crime
              > Report:.
              > > January 1, 2005-December 31, 2005. Executive Summary. In December
              > 2003,
              > > the Internet ...
              > > www.ic3.gov/ media/annualrepo rt/2005_IC3Repor t.pdf - Similar pages
              > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
              > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
              > > ted:www.ic3. gov/media/ annualreport/ 2005_IC3Report. pdf> Internet
              > Fraud
              > > Information: USA.gov
              > > <http://www.usa. gov/Citizen/ Topics/Internet_ Fraud.shtml> Report
              > both
              > > civil and criminal complaints, such as Internet, telemarketing, and
              > > other consumer-related fraud through the Consumer Sentinel
              > database. ...
              > > www.usa.gov/ Citizen/Topics/ Internet_ Fraud.shtml - 31k - Cached
              > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
              > q=cache:9HGEchA5N0E J:www.usa. gov/Citizen/ T\
              > >
              > opics/Internet_ Fraud.shtml+ report+internet+ fraud&hl= en&ct=clnk& cd=3>
              > -
              > > Similar pages
              > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
              > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
              > > ted:www.usa. gov/Citizen/ Topics/Internet_ Fraud.shtml>
              > cybercrime.gov
              > > <http://www.usdoj. gov/criminal/ cybercrime/ reporting. htm>
              > Citizens
              > > who are aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices
              > of
              > > ... Child Exploitation and Internet Fraud matters that have a mail
              > nexus
              > > ...
              > > www.usdoj.gov/ criminal/ cybercrime/ reporting. htm - 17k - Cached
              > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
              > q=cache:F4XyW6H1r78 J:www.usdoj. gov/crimina\
              > >
              > l/cybercrime/ reporting. htm+report+ internet+ fraud&hl= en&ct=clnk& cd=4>
              > -
              > > Similar pages
              > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
              > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
              > > ted:www.usdoj. gov/criminal/ cybercrime/ reporting. htm>
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Distillers list archives :
              > http://infoarchive. net/sgroup/ distillers/
              >
              > FAQ, Howto distil etc. :
              > http://homedistille r.org
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >


            • jamesonbeam1
              Hi Peggy, Yes you are sort of correct - it is legal to own a still for decorative purposes like on a wall or in a salon or as a lamp (i ment to say own a still
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 5, 2007
                Hi Peggy,

                Yes you are sort of correct - it is legal to own a still for
                decorative purposes like on a wall or in a salon or as a lamp (i ment
                to say own a still without permit ot operate)...

                However, if by some remote chance the ATF or my friendly local
                sheriffs, of whom ive met many, did come into my house (which they
                have on occasion from other problems) with a search warrent and found
                2 - 12 gallon primary fermenters filled with corn mash in various
                stages of fermentation, along with proof and wine hydrometers, yeast,
                acid blend, yeast nutrients, iodine, PH test strips, glycerine, mason
                jars (some filled with shine), and many pounds of sugar, corn meal,
                flaked corn, liquid malt, etc,etc... along with disassembled still
                components, then....

                I believe i would be in deep caca from a little known legal term
                known as "intent to process...." as stated below.

                But thanks for the info.

                Vino es Veritas,
                Jim.



                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Sherman is correct. I have a friend (although not a close friend)
                in
                > law enforcement that I trust. I threw a hypothetical question at
                him
                > the other day and asked how he felt about people making moonshine
                as a
                > hobby. His reply was that it was none of his business as long as
                you
                > were within the 5 gallon per year limit. This was a law enforcement
                > officer of 15 years saying that he was pretty sure the law allowed
                you
                > to make 5 gallons per year of shine for personal use. I asked him
                to
                > check it out for me and he immediately got on the phone to a ATF
                agent
                > friend of his and asked the guy to clarify the issue for him. My
                name
                > was never mentioned during this. The agent replied on speaker phone
                > that it was in fact illegal to own a still in the US without a
                permit.
                > Possession of less than 3 gallons of shine is a misdemeanor and
                over a
                > felony I believe is what he said. Afterward my friend smiled at me
                > and said that we should forget that we had the conversation to begin
                > with. This is not the first person in law enforcement to tell me
                they
                > thought it was legal. I had an ATF agent a few years ago when i was
                > still toying with the idea tell me that she "THOUGHT" it was legal
                to
                > make a small amount for personal use.
                > The bottom line seems to be that some if not a lot of law
                enforcement
                > think that shine is like wine and beer. You can make a little you
                > just cant sell it. Simply not true. But it does seem to be a bit
                > fuzzy to alot of people. We can Buy and sell books on the subject,
                > We can buy and sell stills on the internet and Ebay legally?, We
                can
                > buy products legally that are specific to the hobby of illegal
                > distilling, we can legally discuss what we illegally do on this
                > forum. But if we get caught were in trouble. Sounds like entrapment
                > to me. As alot of have said before. Maybe they just don't bother
                > with us anymore. I will continue on as will most of us who enjoy
                this
                > hobby. But I will always be looking over my shoulder while
                operating
                > my still. I will also be keeping the door shut, and the exhaust fan
                > on high.
                >
                > Mason
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example
                of a
                > > case where it is illegal.
                > > This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                -
                > > 244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
                > > No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or
                knowingly
                > > transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
                > > alcoholic beverages.
                > > Effective: October 1, 1942
                > > History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective
                October
                > > 1, 1942, from Ky.
                > > Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                -
                > > 244.990 Penalties.
                > > (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
                > > conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
                > > conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third
                and
                > > each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C
                felony.
                > >
                > > Just thought your should know.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello James,
                > > >
                > > > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States.
                > Operating the
                > > > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills
                and the
                > > > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
                > > distilleries is not
                > > > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
                > > number' to
                > > > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still.
                > This may
                > > > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
                > > Remember
                > > > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
                > > >
                > > > Peggy
                >
              • jamesonbeam1
                ... -snip - Remember - this country was founded by a bunch of rebels. Peggy Yup, guess you are so correct there too. I is somewhat of a rebel lol :):):) Keep
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 5, 2007
                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@> wrote:

                  -snip -
                  Remember -
                  this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.

                  Peggy

                  Yup, guess you are so correct there too.
                  I is somewhat of a rebel lol :):):)

                  Keep the faith and Vino es Veritas,
                  Jim.
                • Derek Hamlet
                  ... It s important to remember how many of our laws about distilling came into effect. It has little to do with prohibition, public health or any of the other
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 5, 2007
                    At 07:11 AM 12/5/2007, you wrote:
                    >Remember -
                    >this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.

                    It's important to remember how many of our laws about distilling came
                    into effect.
                    It has little to do with prohibition, public health or any of the
                    other BS arguments put forward by spin doctors and politicians.
                    In the early days, (when George Washington still had a still) new
                    settlers from Europe headed out into the hinterlands. Many of these
                    people came from European roots with strong distilling traditions
                    such as the Irish.
                    Roads were little more than tracks.
                    These folks often ended up farming and corn was fairly easy to grow.
                    Getting the product to market involved wagons, animals and tracks
                    that broke wheels and terrain that was daunting.
                    Some folks distilled their product into alcohol and found not only
                    could a mule carry two barrels of alcohol to market, the price was
                    virtually the same as the price for corn. This was a no brainer.
                    Enter the established distillers, the concept of lobbying, government
                    (even though rebel raised) eager for taxes and you have a recipe for
                    making distilling illegal.
                    Bastards!
                    I'd be guessing the annual costs to society of alcohol abuse of
                    highly purified products produced by rich bastard distilling
                    companies is far more than the social ills of "freelancers" over the
                    entire history of the USof A.
                    My apologies to all the non North Americans who chose to read
                    this. I'm guessing the histories in Aus, NZ, Sweden or wherever is
                    much the same.
                    The good news for those of us that make product for ourselves and
                    close friends is that there are way more important social ills for
                    the forces of law and order to investigate than whether you and I are
                    producing a few gallons of hooch every year.
                    I never give it a thought, but I am also circumspect.


                    Derek
                    "From the cradle to the crypt it's a mighty short trip
                    So you'd better get it while you can!"
                    -from the Ballad of Carl Martin by Steve Goodman
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