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Re: StillDrinkin.com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

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  • jamesonbeam1
    Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to report being ripped of for purchasing a still on the internet in a country where distilling is illegal without permit
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
      Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to report being ripped of for
      purchasing a still on the internet in a country where distilling is
      illegal without permit (Especially to an agency affiliated with the
      FBI or ABC). At least that is IMHO and maybe a bit paranoid.

      This does sound like the perfect rip-off scam though - advertising
      stills that are illegal to own without a permit then not delivering -
      knowing that most people would be too scared to report them to the
      better business bureau or those listed below (sigh :(:(:(.

      Vino es Veritas,
      Jim.

      But thankyou for posting this George, maybe some will learn from your
      mistake.



      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "georgetoddly" <georgetoddly@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Update:
      > >
      > > I ordered my Venom on Sept 5th and they told me it would ship in 3
      > > days. after three days they said 10 days, after ten days they
      said 15
      > > days, after 15 days they said 20 days, on Oct 5th after several
      calls
      > > i told them i was done and to just recredit my account... the guy
      on
      > > the phone refused, i said it's ok my credit card company would
      get my
      > > money for me, at which point he very obviously did the old "make a
      > > static noise with your voice" and said he was losing me over and
      over
      > > then hung up on me. Never to be heard from again. Now it is Dec
      3rd
      > > and the credit card company has closed the case in my favor. I
      called
      > > them right after the guy hung up on me and they took my money from
      > > their account immediately, but it takes them 2 months to finalize
      it.
      > >
      > > I'm just updating in the off chance someone else will read this
      when
      > > they are thinking about buying from www.stilldrinkin.com . These
      guys
      > > are just a scam, don't waste your time. I got my money back but it
      > > took forever. If you are reading this and your just starting out
      in
      > > distilling and wondering what to do, start here:
      > > http://homedistiller.org/ there is a ton of info there including
      > > reputable places to purchase a still.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Go further. Report them for internet fraud...links below my sig.
      >
      > Slainte!
      > regards Harry
      > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) <http://www.ic3.gov/> The
      > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) is a partnership between the
      > Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) ... FBI Fraud Flyer adobe
      pdf. FBI
      > Fraud Flyer ...
      > www.ic3.gov/ - 7k - Cached
      > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
      q=cache:4ALJ8kLVMNUJ:www.ic3.gov/+report+i\
      > nternet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1> - Similar pages
      > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
      10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
      > ted:www.ic3.gov/> [PDF] 2005 IC3 Annual Internet Fraud Report
      > <http://www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> File
      > Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
      > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
      q=cache:Ansj8lqy5k4J:www.ic3.gov/media/ann\
      >
      ualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2>
      > The Internet Crime Complaint Center. 2005 Internet Fraud Crime
      Report:.
      > January 1, 2005-December 31, 2005. Executive Summary. In December
      2003,
      > the Internet ...
      > www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf - Similar pages
      > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
      10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
      > ted:www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> Internet
      Fraud
      > Information: USA.gov
      > <http://www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml> Report
      both
      > civil and criminal complaints, such as Internet, telemarketing, and
      > other consumer-related fraud through the Consumer Sentinel
      database. ...
      > www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml - 31k - Cached
      > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
      q=cache:9HGEchA5N0EJ:www.usa.gov/Citizen/T\
      >
      opics/Internet_Fraud.shtml+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3>
      -
      > Similar pages
      > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
      10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
      > ted:www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml>
      cybercrime.gov
      > <http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
      Citizens
      > who are aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices
      of
      > ... Child Exploitation and Internet Fraud matters that have a mail
      nexus
      > ...
      > www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm - 17k - Cached
      > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
      q=cache:F4XyW6H1r78J:www.usdoj.gov/crimina\
      >
      l/cybercrime/reporting.htm+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4>
      -
      > Similar pages
      > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
      10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
      > ted:www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
      >
    • Peggy
      Hello James, Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States. Operating the still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
        Hello James,

        Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States. Operating the
        still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
        function is optional. The system of sales reporting for distilleries is not
        mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique number' to
        be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still. This may
        sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us. Remember
        this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.

        Peggy

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
        Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:41 PM
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Distillers] Re: StillDrinkin.com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

        Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to report being ripped of for
        purchasing a still on the internet in a country where distilling is
        illegal without permit (Especially to an agency affiliated with the
        FBI or ABC). At least that is IMHO and maybe a bit paranoid.

        This does sound like the perfect rip-off scam though - advertising
        stills that are illegal to own without a permit then not delivering -
        knowing that most people would be too scared to report them to the
        better business bureau or those listed below (sigh :(:(:(.

        Vino es Veritas,
        Jim.

        But thankyou for posting this George, maybe some will learn from your
        mistake.



        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "georgetoddly" <georgetoddly@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Update:
        > >
        > > I ordered my Venom on Sept 5th and they told me it would ship in 3
        > > days. after three days they said 10 days, after ten days they
        said 15
        > > days, after 15 days they said 20 days, on Oct 5th after several
        calls
        > > i told them i was done and to just recredit my account... the guy
        on
        > > the phone refused, i said it's ok my credit card company would
        get my
        > > money for me, at which point he very obviously did the old "make a
        > > static noise with your voice" and said he was losing me over and
        over
        > > then hung up on me. Never to be heard from again. Now it is Dec
        3rd
        > > and the credit card company has closed the case in my favor. I
        called
        > > them right after the guy hung up on me and they took my money from
        > > their account immediately, but it takes them 2 months to finalize
        it.
        > >
        > > I'm just updating in the off chance someone else will read this
        when
        > > they are thinking about buying from www.stilldrinkin.com . These
        guys
        > > are just a scam, don't waste your time. I got my money back but it
        > > took forever. If you are reading this and your just starting out
        in
        > > distilling and wondering what to do, start here:
        > > http://homedistiller.org/ there is a ton of info there including
        > > reputable places to purchase a still.
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Go further. Report them for internet fraud...links below my sig.
        >
        > Slainte!
        > regards Harry
        > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) <http://www.ic3.gov/> The
        > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) is a partnership between the
        > Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) ... FBI Fraud Flyer adobe
        pdf. FBI
        > Fraud Flyer ...
        > www.ic3.gov/ - 7k - Cached
        > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
        q=cache:4ALJ8kLVMNUJ:www.ic3.gov/+report+i\
        > nternet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1> - Similar pages
        > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
        10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
        > ted:www.ic3.gov/> [PDF] 2005 IC3 Annual Internet Fraud Report
        > <http://www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> File
        > Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
        > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
        q=cache:Ansj8lqy5k4J:www.ic3.gov/media/ann\
        >
        ualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2>
        > The Internet Crime Complaint Center. 2005 Internet Fraud Crime
        Report:.
        > January 1, 2005-December 31, 2005. Executive Summary. In December
        2003,
        > the Internet ...
        > www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf - Similar pages
        > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
        10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
        > ted:www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> Internet
        Fraud
        > Information: USA.gov
        > <http://www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml> Report
        both
        > civil and criminal complaints, such as Internet, telemarketing, and
        > other consumer-related fraud through the Consumer Sentinel
        database. ...
        > www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml - 31k - Cached
        > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
        q=cache:9HGEchA5N0EJ:www.usa.gov/Citizen/T\
        >
        opics/Internet_Fraud.shtml+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3>
        -
        > Similar pages
        > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
        10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
        > ted:www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml>
        cybercrime.gov
        > <http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
        Citizens
        > who are aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices
        of
        > ... Child Exploitation and Internet Fraud matters that have a mail
        nexus
        > ...
        > www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm - 17k - Cached
        > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
        q=cache:F4XyW6H1r78J:www.usdoj.gov/crimina\
        >
        l/cybercrime/reporting.htm+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4>
        -
        > Similar pages
        > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
        10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
        > ted:www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
        >




        Distillers list archives :
        http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/distillers/

        FAQ, Howto distil etc. :
        http://homedistiller.org
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Larry
        ... I ll say as I said nearly a year ago... when a distilling site needs to get extra revenue by also carrying advertising for sex stuff, there is something
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
          At 01:49 PM 12/03/2007, you wrote:
          >I ordered my Venom on Sept 5th and they told me it would ship in 3
          >days. after three days they said 10 days, after ten days they said 15
          >days, after 15 days they said 20 days, on Oct 5th after several calls
          >i told them i was done and to just recredit my account... the guy on
          >the phone refused.

          I'll say as I said nearly a year ago... when a distilling site needs to get
          extra revenue by also carrying advertising for sex stuff, there is
          something not right.

          It reminds me of all the local drive-in movie theaters here in town. As
          the drive-in theaters began to die, you could see their death throes.

          They began showing "X" rated films, then "XXX" films, then "For Sale 3.5
          Acres Zoned Commercial" signs.

          These guys carry advertising for pheromone cologne, claiming that it makes
          4-5 women a day try to get in his pants, and still more for a program used
          to hack into porn sites. http://www.stilldrinkin.com/Guy%20Stuff.htm

          Brewhaus, for instance, ONLY sells alcohol-producing stuff, and I have to
          think it's because they have the products and service to actually make it
          support itself on distilling.

          While I was typing this, I noticed that while the pheromone thing is simple
          click-through revenue (it takes you to the actual pheromone people when you
          click it), the porn-hacking program is sold directly from stilldrinkin.com.

          So I clicked on it's Buy Button, taking me to PayPal. Thought I'd see
          who's account was actually receiving payments.

          Get this... you can't buy the program. PayPal has shut it down. Instead of
          accepting the payment, PayPal sends you to a screen that simply says "This
          recipient is currently unable to receive money." then lets you click back
          to stilldrinkin.com.

          They used to sell these Venom and Mustang stills constantly on Ebay, but
          when I looked a couple of months ago, I noticed that they weren't selling
          anything at all. I wonder if maybe Ebay shut them down.
        • sonum norbu
          Good onya Harry. These bastards need to have their wings clipped. blanik Most of the troubles of the world are caused by human beings . (Shakyamuni Buddha)
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
            Good onya Harry. These bastards need to have their wings clipped.

            blanik

            "Most of the troubles of the world are caused by human beings". (Shakyamuni Buddha)

            SOARING, SAILING AND SKYDIVING web page
            http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/cloudbase/



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          • Sherman
            I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a case where it is illegal. This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
              I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a
              case where it is illegal.
              This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
              -------------------------------------------------------------------
              244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
              No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or knowingly
              transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
              alcoholic beverages.
              Effective: October 1, 1942
              History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October
              1, 1942, from Ky.
              Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
              -------------------------------------------------------------------
              244.990 Penalties.
              (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
              conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
              conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third and
              each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C felony.

              Just thought your should know.


              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello James,
              >
              > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States. Operating the
              > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
              > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
              distilleries is not
              > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
              number' to
              > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still. This may
              > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
              Remember
              > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
              >
              > Peggy
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
              > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:41 PM
              > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Distillers] Re: StillDrinkin.com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
              >
              > Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to report being ripped of for
              > purchasing a still on the internet in a country where distilling is
              > illegal without permit (Especially to an agency affiliated with the
              > FBI or ABC). At least that is IMHO and maybe a bit paranoid.
              >
              > This does sound like the perfect rip-off scam though - advertising
              > stills that are illegal to own without a permit then not delivering -
              > knowing that most people would be too scared to report them to the
              > better business bureau or those listed below (sigh :(:(:(.
              >
              > Vino es Veritas,
              > Jim.
              >
              > But thankyou for posting this George, maybe some will learn from your
              > mistake.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "georgetoddly" <georgetoddly@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Update:
              > > >
              > > > I ordered my Venom on Sept 5th and they told me it would ship in 3
              > > > days. after three days they said 10 days, after ten days they
              > said 15
              > > > days, after 15 days they said 20 days, on Oct 5th after several
              > calls
              > > > i told them i was done and to just recredit my account... the guy
              > on
              > > > the phone refused, i said it's ok my credit card company would
              > get my
              > > > money for me, at which point he very obviously did the old "make a
              > > > static noise with your voice" and said he was losing me over and
              > over
              > > > then hung up on me. Never to be heard from again. Now it is Dec
              > 3rd
              > > > and the credit card company has closed the case in my favor. I
              > called
              > > > them right after the guy hung up on me and they took my money from
              > > > their account immediately, but it takes them 2 months to finalize
              > it.
              > > >
              > > > I'm just updating in the off chance someone else will read this
              > when
              > > > they are thinking about buying from www.stilldrinkin.com . These
              > guys
              > > > are just a scam, don't waste your time. I got my money back but it
              > > > took forever. If you are reading this and your just starting out
              > in
              > > > distilling and wondering what to do, start here:
              > > > http://homedistiller.org/ there is a ton of info there including
              > > > reputable places to purchase a still.
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Go further. Report them for internet fraud...links below my sig.
              > >
              > > Slainte!
              > > regards Harry
              > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) <http://www.ic3.gov/> The
              > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) is a partnership between the
              > > Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) ... FBI Fraud Flyer adobe
              > pdf. FBI
              > > Fraud Flyer ...
              > > www.ic3.gov/ - 7k - Cached
              > > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
              > q=cache:4ALJ8kLVMNUJ:www.ic3.gov/+report+i\
              > > nternet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1> - Similar pages
              > > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
              > 10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
              > > ted:www.ic3.gov/> [PDF] 2005 IC3 Annual Internet Fraud Report
              > > <http://www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> File
              > > Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
              > > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
              > q=cache:Ansj8lqy5k4J:www.ic3.gov/media/ann\
              > >
              > ualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2>
              > > The Internet Crime Complaint Center. 2005 Internet Fraud Crime
              > Report:.
              > > January 1, 2005-December 31, 2005. Executive Summary. In December
              > 2003,
              > > the Internet ...
              > > www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf - Similar pages
              > > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
              > 10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
              > > ted:www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2005_IC3Report.pdf> Internet
              > Fraud
              > > Information: USA.gov
              > > <http://www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml> Report
              > both
              > > civil and criminal complaints, such as Internet, telemarketing, and
              > > other consumer-related fraud through the Consumer Sentinel
              > database. ...
              > > www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml - 31k - Cached
              > > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
              > q=cache:9HGEchA5N0EJ:www.usa.gov/Citizen/T\
              > >
              > opics/Internet_Fraud.shtml+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3>
              > -
              > > Similar pages
              > > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
              > 10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
              > > ted:www.usa.gov/Citizen/Topics/Internet_Fraud.shtml>
              > cybercrime.gov
              > > <http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
              > Citizens
              > > who are aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices
              > of
              > > ... Child Exploitation and Internet Fraud matters that have a mail
              > nexus
              > > ...
              > > www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm - 17k - Cached
              > > <http://209.85.173.104/search?
              > q=cache:F4XyW6H1r78J:www.usdoj.gov/crimina\
              > >
              > l/cybercrime/reporting.htm+report+internet+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4>
              > -
              > > Similar pages
              > > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-
              > 10,GGLG:en&q=rela\
              > > ted:www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm>
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Distillers list archives :
              > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/distillers/
              >
              > FAQ, Howto distil etc. :
              > http://homedistiller.org
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
            • rye_junkie
              Sherman is correct. I have a friend (although not a close friend) in law enforcement that I trust. I threw a hypothetical question at him the other day and
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
                Sherman is correct. I have a friend (although not a close friend) in
                law enforcement that I trust. I threw a hypothetical question at him
                the other day and asked how he felt about people making moonshine as a
                hobby. His reply was that it was none of his business as long as you
                were within the 5 gallon per year limit. This was a law enforcement
                officer of 15 years saying that he was pretty sure the law allowed you
                to make 5 gallons per year of shine for personal use. I asked him to
                check it out for me and he immediately got on the phone to a ATF agent
                friend of his and asked the guy to clarify the issue for him. My name
                was never mentioned during this. The agent replied on speaker phone
                that it was in fact illegal to own a still in the US without a permit.
                Possession of less than 3 gallons of shine is a misdemeanor and over a
                felony I believe is what he said. Afterward my friend smiled at me
                and said that we should forget that we had the conversation to begin
                with. This is not the first person in law enforcement to tell me they
                thought it was legal. I had an ATF agent a few years ago when i was
                still toying with the idea tell me that she "THOUGHT" it was legal to
                make a small amount for personal use.
                The bottom line seems to be that some if not a lot of law enforcement
                think that shine is like wine and beer. You can make a little you
                just cant sell it. Simply not true. But it does seem to be a bit
                fuzzy to alot of people. We can Buy and sell books on the subject,
                We can buy and sell stills on the internet and Ebay legally?, We can
                buy products legally that are specific to the hobby of illegal
                distilling, we can legally discuss what we illegally do on this
                forum. But if we get caught were in trouble. Sounds like entrapment
                to me. As alot of have said before. Maybe they just don't bother
                with us anymore. I will continue on as will most of us who enjoy this
                hobby. But I will always be looking over my shoulder while operating
                my still. I will also be keeping the door shut, and the exhaust fan
                on high.

                Mason

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                >
                > I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a
                > case where it is illegal.
                > This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                > 244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
                > No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or knowingly
                > transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
                > alcoholic beverages.
                > Effective: October 1, 1942
                > History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October
                > 1, 1942, from Ky.
                > Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                > 244.990 Penalties.
                > (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
                > conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
                > conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third and
                > each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C felony.
                >
                > Just thought your should know.
                >
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello James,
                > >
                > > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States.
                Operating the
                > > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
                > > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
                > distilleries is not
                > > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
                > number' to
                > > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still.
                This may
                > > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
                > Remember
                > > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
                > >
                > > Peggy
              • harry day
                I bought the turbo master combo last January from Still Drinkin.com and it took a few phone calls and a couple months but I did receive my still. They were
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
                  I bought the turbo  master combo last January from Still Drinkin.com  and it took a few phone calls and a couple months but I did receive my still. They were very helpful most of the time but when I ordered other items I had a lot of trouble getting them and I had to have paypal help me out. They never send items out when they say they will.  They dont seem to be very organized and have no way to keep track of their orders or shipping. Also when talking to them most of the time it is hard to hear them for all the back ground noise and due to the fact they seem to be on cell phones........

                  Sherman <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                  I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example of a
                  case where it is illegal.
                  This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                  244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
                  No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or knowingly
                  transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
                  alcoholic beverages.
                  Effective: October 1, 1942
                  History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October
                  1, 1942, from Ky.
                  Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                  244.990 Penalties.
                  (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
                  conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
                  conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third and
                  each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C felony.

                  Just thought your should know.

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello James,
                  >
                  > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States. Operating the
                  > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills and the
                  > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
                  distilleries is not
                  > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
                  number' to
                  > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still. This may
                  > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
                  Remember
                  > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
                  >
                  > Peggy
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogro ups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
                  > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:41 PM
                  > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Subject: [Distillers] Re: StillDrinkin. com GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
                  >
                  > Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to report being ripped of for
                  > purchasing a still on the internet in a country where distilling is
                  > illegal without permit (Especially to an agency affiliated with the
                  > FBI or ABC). At least that is IMHO and maybe a bit paranoid.
                  >
                  > This does sound like the perfect rip-off scam though - advertising
                  > stills that are illegal to own without a permit then not delivering -
                  > knowing that most people would be too scared to report them to the
                  > better business bureau or those listed below (sigh :(:(:(.
                  >
                  > Vino es Veritas,
                  > Jim.
                  >
                  > But thankyou for posting this George, maybe some will learn from your
                  > mistake.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@ > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "georgetoddly" <georgetoddly@ >
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Update:
                  > > >
                  > > > I ordered my Venom on Sept 5th and they told me it would ship in 3
                  > > > days. after three days they said 10 days, after ten days they
                  > said 15
                  > > > days, after 15 days they said 20 days, on Oct 5th after several
                  > calls
                  > > > i told them i was done and to just recredit my account... the guy
                  > on
                  > > > the phone refused, i said it's ok my credit card company would
                  > get my
                  > > > money for me, at which point he very obviously did the old "make a
                  > > > static noise with your voice" and said he was losing me over and
                  > over
                  > > > then hung up on me. Never to be heard from again. Now it is Dec
                  > 3rd
                  > > > and the credit card company has closed the case in my favor. I
                  > called
                  > > > them right after the guy hung up on me and they took my money from
                  > > > their account immediately, but it takes them 2 months to finalize
                  > it.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm just updating in the off chance someone else will read this
                  > when
                  > > > they are thinking about buying from www.stilldrinkin. com . These
                  > guys
                  > > > are just a scam, don't waste your time. I got my money back but it
                  > > > took forever. If you are reading this and your just starting out
                  > in
                  > > > distilling and wondering what to do, start here:
                  > > > http://homedistille r.org/ there is a ton of info there including
                  > > > reputable places to purchase a still.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Go further. Report them for internet fraud...links below my sig.
                  > >
                  > > Slainte!
                  > > regards Harry
                  > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) <http://www.ic3. gov/> The
                  > > Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) is a partnership between the
                  > > Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) ... FBI Fraud Flyer adobe
                  > pdf. FBI
                  > > Fraud Flyer ...
                  > > www.ic3.gov/ - 7k - Cached
                  > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
                  > q=cache:4ALJ8kLVMNU J:www.ic3. gov/+report+ i\
                  > > nternet+fraud& hl=en&ct= clnk&cd=1> - Similar pages
                  > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
                  > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
                  > > ted:www.ic3. gov/> [PDF] 2005 IC3 Annual Internet Fraud Report
                  > > <http://www.ic3. gov/media/ annualreport/ 2005_IC3Report. pdf> File
                  > > Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
                  > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
                  > q=cache:Ansj8lqy5k4 J:www.ic3. gov/media/ ann\
                  > >
                  > ualreport/2005_ IC3Report. pdf+report+ internet+ fraud&hl= en&ct=clnk& cd=2>
                  > > The Internet Crime Complaint Center. 2005 Internet Fraud Crime
                  > Report:.
                  > > January 1, 2005-December 31, 2005. Executive Summary. In December
                  > 2003,
                  > > the Internet ...
                  > > www.ic3.gov/ media/annualrepo rt/2005_IC3Repor t.pdf - Similar pages
                  > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
                  > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
                  > > ted:www.ic3. gov/media/ annualreport/ 2005_IC3Report. pdf> Internet
                  > Fraud
                  > > Information: USA.gov
                  > > <http://www.usa. gov/Citizen/ Topics/Internet_ Fraud.shtml> Report
                  > both
                  > > civil and criminal complaints, such as Internet, telemarketing, and
                  > > other consumer-related fraud through the Consumer Sentinel
                  > database. ...
                  > > www.usa.gov/ Citizen/Topics/ Internet_ Fraud.shtml - 31k - Cached
                  > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
                  > q=cache:9HGEchA5N0E J:www.usa. gov/Citizen/ T\
                  > >
                  > opics/Internet_ Fraud.shtml+ report+internet+ fraud&hl= en&ct=clnk& cd=3>
                  > -
                  > > Similar pages
                  > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
                  > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
                  > > ted:www.usa. gov/Citizen/ Topics/Internet_ Fraud.shtml>
                  > cybercrime.gov
                  > > <http://www.usdoj. gov/criminal/ cybercrime/ reporting. htm>
                  > Citizens
                  > > who are aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices
                  > of
                  > > ... Child Exploitation and Internet Fraud matters that have a mail
                  > nexus
                  > > ...
                  > > www.usdoj.gov/ criminal/ cybercrime/ reporting. htm - 17k - Cached
                  > > <http://209.85. 173.104/search?
                  > q=cache:F4XyW6H1r78 J:www.usdoj. gov/crimina\
                  > >
                  > l/cybercrime/ reporting. htm+report+ internet+ fraud&hl= en&ct=clnk& cd=4>
                  > -
                  > > Similar pages
                  > > <http://www.google. com/search? hl=en&rls= GGLG,GGLG: 2006-
                  > 10,GGLG:en&q= rela\
                  > > ted:www.usdoj. gov/criminal/ cybercrime/ reporting. htm>
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Distillers list archives :
                  > http://infoarchive. net/sgroup/ distillers/
                  >
                  > FAQ, Howto distil etc. :
                  > http://homedistille r.org
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >


                • jamesonbeam1
                  Hi Peggy, Yes you are sort of correct - it is legal to own a still for decorative purposes like on a wall or in a salon or as a lamp (i ment to say own a still
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 5, 2007
                    Hi Peggy,

                    Yes you are sort of correct - it is legal to own a still for
                    decorative purposes like on a wall or in a salon or as a lamp (i ment
                    to say own a still without permit ot operate)...

                    However, if by some remote chance the ATF or my friendly local
                    sheriffs, of whom ive met many, did come into my house (which they
                    have on occasion from other problems) with a search warrent and found
                    2 - 12 gallon primary fermenters filled with corn mash in various
                    stages of fermentation, along with proof and wine hydrometers, yeast,
                    acid blend, yeast nutrients, iodine, PH test strips, glycerine, mason
                    jars (some filled with shine), and many pounds of sugar, corn meal,
                    flaked corn, liquid malt, etc,etc... along with disassembled still
                    components, then....

                    I believe i would be in deep caca from a little known legal term
                    known as "intent to process...." as stated below.

                    But thanks for the info.

                    Vino es Veritas,
                    Jim.



                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Sherman is correct. I have a friend (although not a close friend)
                    in
                    > law enforcement that I trust. I threw a hypothetical question at
                    him
                    > the other day and asked how he felt about people making moonshine
                    as a
                    > hobby. His reply was that it was none of his business as long as
                    you
                    > were within the 5 gallon per year limit. This was a law enforcement
                    > officer of 15 years saying that he was pretty sure the law allowed
                    you
                    > to make 5 gallons per year of shine for personal use. I asked him
                    to
                    > check it out for me and he immediately got on the phone to a ATF
                    agent
                    > friend of his and asked the guy to clarify the issue for him. My
                    name
                    > was never mentioned during this. The agent replied on speaker phone
                    > that it was in fact illegal to own a still in the US without a
                    permit.
                    > Possession of less than 3 gallons of shine is a misdemeanor and
                    over a
                    > felony I believe is what he said. Afterward my friend smiled at me
                    > and said that we should forget that we had the conversation to begin
                    > with. This is not the first person in law enforcement to tell me
                    they
                    > thought it was legal. I had an ATF agent a few years ago when i was
                    > still toying with the idea tell me that she "THOUGHT" it was legal
                    to
                    > make a small amount for personal use.
                    > The bottom line seems to be that some if not a lot of law
                    enforcement
                    > think that shine is like wine and beer. You can make a little you
                    > just cant sell it. Simply not true. But it does seem to be a bit
                    > fuzzy to alot of people. We can Buy and sell books on the subject,
                    > We can buy and sell stills on the internet and Ebay legally?, We
                    can
                    > buy products legally that are specific to the hobby of illegal
                    > distilling, we can legally discuss what we illegally do on this
                    > forum. But if we get caught were in trouble. Sounds like entrapment
                    > to me. As alot of have said before. Maybe they just don't bother
                    > with us anymore. I will continue on as will most of us who enjoy
                    this
                    > hobby. But I will always be looking over my shoulder while
                    operating
                    > my still. I will also be keeping the door shut, and the exhaust fan
                    > on high.
                    >
                    > Mason
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I hate to be disagreeable but there exists an excellent example
                    of a
                    > > case where it is illegal.
                    > > This is a current law and is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes.
                    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                    -
                    > > 244.170 Apparatus for unlawful manufacture prohibited.
                    > > No person shall buy, bargain, sell, loan, own, possess or
                    knowingly
                    > > transport any apparatus designed for the unlawful manufacture of
                    > > alcoholic beverages.
                    > > Effective: October 1, 1942
                    > > History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective
                    October
                    > > 1, 1942, from Ky.
                    > > Stat. sec. 2554b-67.
                    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                    -
                    > > 244.990 Penalties.
                    > > (2) Any person who violates KRS 244.170 shall, upon the first
                    > > conviction, be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Upon a second
                    > > conviction he shall be guilty of a Class D felony. Upon the third
                    and
                    > > each subsequent conviction, he shall be guilty of a Class C
                    felony.
                    > >
                    > > Just thought your should know.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello James,
                    > > >
                    > > > Ownership of a still is not illegal in the United States.
                    > Operating the
                    > > > still without a permit is illegal. It is fine to sell stills
                    and the
                    > > > function is optional. The system of sales reporting for
                    > > distilleries is not
                    > > > mandatory either nor is the manufacturing except for the 'unique
                    > > number' to
                    > > > be affixed to each functional, operating, and permitted still.
                    > This may
                    > > > sound like gun control. I hope it doesn't get that bad for us.
                    > > Remember
                    > > > this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.
                    > > >
                    > > > Peggy
                    >
                  • jamesonbeam1
                    ... -snip - Remember - this country was founded by a bunch of rebels. Peggy Yup, guess you are so correct there too. I is somewhat of a rebel lol :):):) Keep
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 5, 2007
                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@> wrote:

                      -snip -
                      Remember -
                      this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.

                      Peggy

                      Yup, guess you are so correct there too.
                      I is somewhat of a rebel lol :):):)

                      Keep the faith and Vino es Veritas,
                      Jim.
                    • Derek Hamlet
                      ... It s important to remember how many of our laws about distilling came into effect. It has little to do with prohibition, public health or any of the other
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 5, 2007
                        At 07:11 AM 12/5/2007, you wrote:
                        >Remember -
                        >this country was founded by a bunch of rebels.

                        It's important to remember how many of our laws about distilling came
                        into effect.
                        It has little to do with prohibition, public health or any of the
                        other BS arguments put forward by spin doctors and politicians.
                        In the early days, (when George Washington still had a still) new
                        settlers from Europe headed out into the hinterlands. Many of these
                        people came from European roots with strong distilling traditions
                        such as the Irish.
                        Roads were little more than tracks.
                        These folks often ended up farming and corn was fairly easy to grow.
                        Getting the product to market involved wagons, animals and tracks
                        that broke wheels and terrain that was daunting.
                        Some folks distilled their product into alcohol and found not only
                        could a mule carry two barrels of alcohol to market, the price was
                        virtually the same as the price for corn. This was a no brainer.
                        Enter the established distillers, the concept of lobbying, government
                        (even though rebel raised) eager for taxes and you have a recipe for
                        making distilling illegal.
                        Bastards!
                        I'd be guessing the annual costs to society of alcohol abuse of
                        highly purified products produced by rich bastard distilling
                        companies is far more than the social ills of "freelancers" over the
                        entire history of the USof A.
                        My apologies to all the non North Americans who chose to read
                        this. I'm guessing the histories in Aus, NZ, Sweden or wherever is
                        much the same.
                        The good news for those of us that make product for ourselves and
                        close friends is that there are way more important social ills for
                        the forces of law and order to investigate than whether you and I are
                        producing a few gallons of hooch every year.
                        I never give it a thought, but I am also circumspect.


                        Derek
                        "From the cradle to the crypt it's a mighty short trip
                        So you'd better get it while you can!"
                        -from the Ballad of Carl Martin by Steve Goodman
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