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Re: Stainless Steel Pure Grain StillI

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  • pint_o_shine
    SNIP It seems tiny compared to the diameter of the column. The vapour will be passing through. ... I can appreciate the concern. There are a lot of myths
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 27 1:19 PM
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      SNIP>
      It seems tiny compared to the diameter of the column. The vapour will
      be passing through.
      >

      I can appreciate the concern. There are a lot of myths about pipe
      size and back pressure. It is all relavent to the input heat though.

      I use my spread sheet and my fluid dynamics knowlege to figure out
      the parts.

      I originally designed the still to operate on 1125 watts. I can boil
      up at 4500W but then I halve the voltage.

      Most of the vapor is getting knocked down in the column and only a
      trickle of 95% is getting through the hole. Running no reflux, the
      output is only about 2 L/hr liquid.

      Finding good information about ETOH is real hard so I approximated by
      using steam. This will actually give a derating to the whole system
      because the steam is what I will have near the end of a run.

      I purposely leave the column un-insulated to allow a temperature
      gradient so the scrubbers can work and have a gradient of vapor
      pressures all along the column. Most of the separation is happening
      in the column. What is moving through the hole is nearly pure grain.

      Using pure water as the model, 1125 watts or 1125J/s can
      evaporate .5g/s steam or 1.79 L/hr.
      The opening has a 7.9 mm radius or a cross section of 1.93*10^-4 m^2.
      Using 1.67 m^3 per kg for steam at atmospheric pressure and 100°C,
      this gives 3 m^3 per hour or 8.32*10^-4 m^3/s through the opening.

      Using 1.79 L/hr as a maximum, not including losses in the column and
      the boiler, the velocity through the opening maximum is 8.32*10^-4
      m^3/s / 1.93*10^-4 m^2 = 4.3m/s . This gives a head drop of 0.89 m
      and the orifice size of 15.8 mm and a orifice coefficient of .98 for
      steam this is 1.4 psi pressure drop. This is well within the
      tolerances of the system since this is an absolute maximum.
    • cadence22003
      --dear pint going to be a bastard when your country goes completly metric and you have to change your name to 425 ml [or whatever] sorry it s my typical aussie
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 27 10:09 PM
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        --dear pint

        going to be a bastard when your country goes completly metric and you
        have to change your name to 425 ml [or whatever]

        sorry it's my typical aussie humour

        re your last brilliant post ,,,would your figures change slightly as
        yield progress was made /????????????????

        my reason for this question is that the activity is binary

        many regards brian



        - In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
        >
        > SNIP>
        > It seems tiny compared to the diameter of the column. The vapour will
        > be passing through.
        > >
        >
        > I can appreciate the concern. There are a lot of myths about pipe
        > size and back pressure. It is all relavent to the input heat though.
        >
        > I use my spread sheet and my fluid dynamics knowlege to figure out
        > the parts.
        >
        > I originally designed the still to operate on 1125 watts. I can boil
        > up at 4500W but then I halve the voltage.
        >
        > Most of the vapor is getting knocked down in the column and only a
        > trickle of 95% is getting through the hole. Running no reflux, the
        > output is only about 2 L/hr liquid.
        >
        > Finding good information about ETOH is real hard so I approximated by
        > using steam. This will actually give a derating to the whole system
        > because the steam is what I will have near the end of a run.
        >
        > I purposely leave the column un-insulated to allow a temperature
        > gradient so the scrubbers can work and have a gradient of vapor
        > pressures all along the column. Most of the separation is happening
        > in the column. What is moving through the hole is nearly pure grain.
        >
        > Using pure water as the model, 1125 watts or 1125J/s can
        > evaporate .5g/s steam or 1.79 L/hr.
        > The opening has a 7.9 mm radius or a cross section of 1.93*10^-4 m^2.
        > Using 1.67 m^3 per kg for steam at atmospheric pressure and 100°C,
        > this gives 3 m^3 per hour or 8.32*10^-4 m^3/s through the opening.
        >
        > Using 1.79 L/hr as a maximum, not including losses in the column and
        > the boiler, the velocity through the opening maximum is 8.32*10^-4
        > m^3/s / 1.93*10^-4 m^2 = 4.3m/s . This gives a head drop of 0.89 m
        > and the orifice size of 15.8 mm and a orifice coefficient of .98 for
        > steam this is 1.4 psi pressure drop. This is well within the
        > tolerances of the system since this is an absolute maximum.
        >
      • polaris041
        To write calculations in this format 345² × 678³ ÷ ¾ = ± 360° and a whole lot more like ® æ ¶ ñ follow this link.
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 27 11:08 PM
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          To write calculations in this format 345² × 678³ ÷ ¾ = ± 360°
          and a whole lot more like ® æ ¶ ñ follow this link.

          http://www.forlang.wsu.edu/help/keyboards.asp

          It may have been aired here before but for the new members it may be
          usefull.

          regards pol

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Using pure water as the model, 1125 watts or 1125J/s can
          > evaporate .5g/s steam or 1.79 L/hr.
          > The opening has a 7.9 mm radius or a cross section of 1.93*10^-4
          m^2.
          > Using 1.67 m^3 per kg for steam at atmospheric pressure and 100°C,
          > this gives 3 m^3 per hour or 8.32*10^-4 m^3/s through the opening.
          >
          > Using 1.79 L/hr as a maximum, not including losses in the column
          and
          > the boiler, the velocity through the opening maximum is 8.32*10^-4
          > m^3/s / 1.93*10^-4 m^2 = 4.3m/s . This gives a head drop of 0.89 m
          > and the orifice size of 15.8 mm and a orifice coefficient of .98
          for
          > steam this is 1.4 psi pressure drop. This is well within the
          > tolerances of the system since this is an absolute maximum.
          >
        • pint_o_shine
          ... Now that s funny. I ll probably be buying ½ Liter jars then. So I ll be able to stick a pint in there with a little extra. When I was a small one my
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 28 6:49 AM
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            > going to be a bastard when your country goes completly metric and you
            > have to change your name to 425 ml [or whatever]

            Now that's funny. I'll probably be buying ½ Liter jars then. So I'll
            be able to stick a pint in there with a little extra.
            When I was a small one my grandfather always called me half-pint. Now
            I can be half-liter.

            > re your last brilliant post ,,,would your figures change slightly as
            > yield progress was made /????????????????
            >
            > my reason for this question is that the activity is binary
            >
            > many regards brian

            Thank you for the "brilliant" compliment part.
            You must have skipped this part though.

            >>Finding good information about ETOH is real hard so I approximated
            by using steam. This will actually give a derating to the whole system
            because the steam is what I will have near the end of a run.

            And this part

            >>This is well within the tolerances of the system since this is an
            absolute maximum.

            With this statement I was suggesting that ETOH and all binary mixtures
            will be less of an impact. I could be wrong. I was hoping someone
            would double check my figures. I hate making a math mistake and have
            it bite me in the rear when I get something built.

            Oh well it is metal. It can be cut and rewelded many times until I get
            it right.
          • cadence22003
            dear pint or half litre and a bit thanks for your humour and reply yes i spent 43 years in the industry and i am no doubt reading more into your post than i
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 28 5:47 PM
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              dear pint or half litre and a bit

              thanks for your humour and reply

              yes i spent 43 years in the industry and i am no doubt reading more
              into your post than i should,,,,,,i was in fact seeing ethanol / water
              wash [feedstock] as having more impact because of it's volatility than
              steam======given identical conditions of course

              your maths are impecable based on information given,,,,,i speak fluent
              maths too but with an aussie accent

              you are obviously a chemical engineer or similar ==check your maths in
              either PERRY or COULSON et al--even then all is only a guide ,,so many
              other factors as you know

              glad to see you are a fan of the non-insulated column in respect of
              gaining maximum reflux

              many regards brian




              - In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
              >
              > > going to be a bastard when your country goes completly metric and you
              > > have to change your name to 425 ml [or whatever]
              >
              > Now that's funny. I'll probably be buying ½ Liter jars then. So I'll
              > be able to stick a pint in there with a little extra.
              > When I was a small one my grandfather always called me half-pint. Now
              > I can be half-liter.
              >
              > > re your last brilliant post ,,,would your figures change slightly as
              > > yield progress was made /????????????????
              > >
              > > my reason for this question is that the activity is binary
              > >
              > > many regards brian
              >
              > Thank you for the "brilliant" compliment part.
              > You must have skipped this part though.
              >
              > >>Finding good information about ETOH is real hard so I approximated
              > by using steam. This will actually give a derating to the whole system
              > because the steam is what I will have near the end of a run.
              >
              > And this part
              >
              > >>This is well within the tolerances of the system since this is an
              > absolute maximum.
              >
              > With this statement I was suggesting that ETOH and all binary mixtures
              > will be less of an impact. I could be wrong. I was hoping someone
              > would double check my figures. I hate making a math mistake and have
              > it bite me in the rear when I get something built.
              >
              > Oh well it is metal. It can be cut and rewelded many times until I get
              > it right.
              >
            • pint_o_shine
              ... You are very welcome. I generally take everything lightly, but my communication habit makes me sound like too much of a hard ass sometimes. ... the job
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 28 8:24 PM
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                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cadence22003" <cadence22003@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > dear pint or half litre and a bit
                >
                > thanks for your humour and reply
                You are very welcome. I generally take everything lightly, but my
                communication habit makes me sound like too much of a hard ass sometimes.
                >I started college as a ChemE but transferred to Electrical because of
                the job market. I loved the math and the problem solving in my
                classes. I only graduated a bit over ten years ago but the math never
                left my mind like it does for a lot of people. The wealth of
                information at my finger tips, with the internet, makes me an
                engineering junkie.
                The thermodynamics is the part I love the most. Understanding heat
                flow and phase transformation and especially the controlling inputs.
                I am a software program lead now at UPS and I use the chemical
                engineering and metal work as a diversion from the computer overload
                at work.

                By the way I fabricated all the parts for the cap and the mounting
                ears for the tank today.

                yes i spent 43 years in the industry and i am no doubt reading more
                > into your post than i should,,,,,,i was in fact seeing ethanol /
                water wash [feedstock] as having more impact because of it's
                volatility than
                > steam======given identical conditions of course

                The feed stock for this one is usually going to be 50% Etoh and water
                from my big pot still. I will usually charge it with 50 liters. The
                tank itself is 58.7 liters. When I weld the tank, I also make plates
                or plugs to block all the openings. I use my compressor with the
                regulator set to 25 psi to pressure check all the welds. I had a bad
                accident with alcohol vapor about 25 years ago and am a stickler for
                leaks. Zero tolerance for leaks.

                I believe you are correct about the ETOH being more volitile.
                ETOH H20
                Heat of Vaporisation J/g 855 2260 Perry 3-178

                I will run the numbers using Dalton's law of partial pressures and see
                the results. As long as I am no where near Mach 1,which should occur
                at a pressure ratio of .528 or 13.14 psig, then every thing is cool.
                The pressure will stabilize and the max psi because of the orifice
                shouldn't be much more but I could be surprised.
              • sylvania65
                ... You DO fill it with water before pressurization, right? As, I assume you know, if it is full of water any failures are safer - and leaks are easier to
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 31 10:46 PM
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                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...>
                  wrote:
                  > I use my compressor with the
                  > regulator set to 25 psi to pressure check all the welds. I had a bad
                  > accident with alcohol vapor about 25 years ago and am a stickler for
                  > leaks. Zero tolerance for leaks.

                  You DO fill it with water before pressurization, right? As, I assume you
                  know, if it is full of water any failures are safer - and leaks are
                  easier to find. Also, 15 psi should be plenty to leak check a part for
                  a still that isn't really intended to hold any pressure at all anyway.

                  Nicely designed still - I always love to see what you get up to.
                • pint_o_shine
                  I finished it and I did the commissioning run last night. I charged it with 26 liters of 14% mixture of water and high proof from a previous run that I was not
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 7, 2007
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                    I finished it and I did the commissioning run last night.
                    I charged it with 26 liters of 14% mixture of water and high proof
                    from a previous run that I was not satisfied with the flavor.
                    After It reach equilibrium, a measured the max takeoff. It was
                    50ml/minute. I poured what the contents back into the boiler.
                    I closed the valve and allowed it to equalize again. I started taking
                    off alcohol at 95%. It stayed there for the first 3 liters taking it
                    off at a rate of 5ml/minute. 10:1 reflux removed all the flavor. I was
                    very satisfied with the results. It took a half a liter to get all the
                    milkiness out of the watered down spirits. After that it was real nice.

                    The sight glass proved to be nearly worthless. It fogged up
                    immediately. After the volume of vapor picked up a bit I was able to
                    look between the droplets and see the level in the holding pool enough
                    to tell it was draining back down the column correctly. I was also
                    able to verify the volume of vapor did not interfere with the liquid
                    flow downward.

                    I took some pictures after I got it cleaned up from the first run. You
                    can view then at
                    http://www.artisan-distiller.org/bokakob/finished.htm

                    I will run it a bit faster whenever I get some stripping done. I am
                    anxious to get 50 liters at 45% to run. I bet it will not need so
                    much reflux then.
                    Let me know what you think about the finished design. I modified the
                    original plans to fit my available materials. It is much easier to
                    operate than my previous attempts. At least I don't have to climb a
                    ladder to adjust things and work with the water hoses.
                  • polaris041
                    Good effort pint. Is that a liebic on the side to cool your product. What temp does it come out of the still and out of the liebic. The sight glass could be
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 7, 2007
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                      Good effort pint.
                      Is that a liebic on the side to cool your product.
                      What temp does it come out of the still and out of the liebic.
                      The sight glass could be fixed by lowering it a bit, then the level
                      of the liquid would be easily seen on the glass.
                      regards pol


                      -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I finished it and I did the commissioning run last night.
                      > I charged it with 26 liters of 14% mixture of water and high proof
                      > from a previous run that I was not satisfied with the flavor.
                      > After It reach equilibrium, a measured the max takeoff. It was
                      > 50ml/minute. I poured what the contents back into the boiler.
                      > I closed the valve and allowed it to equalize again. I started
                      taking
                      > off alcohol at 95%. It stayed there for the first 3 liters taking it
                      > off at a rate of 5ml/minute. 10:1 reflux removed all the flavor. I
                      was
                      > very satisfied with the results. It took a half a liter to get all
                      the
                      > milkiness out of the watered down spirits. After that it was real
                      nice.
                      >
                      > The sight glass proved to be nearly worthless. It fogged up
                      > immediately. After the volume of vapor picked up a bit I was able to
                      > look between the droplets and see the level in the holding pool
                      enough
                      > to tell it was draining back down the column correctly. I was also
                      > able to verify the volume of vapor did not interfere with the liquid
                      > flow downward.
                      >
                      > I took some pictures after I got it cleaned up from the first run.
                      You
                      > can view then at
                      > http://www.artisan-distiller.org/bokakob/finished.htm
                      >
                      > I will run it a bit faster whenever I get some stripping done. I am
                      > anxious to get 50 liters at 45% to run. I bet it will not need so
                      > much reflux then.
                      > Let me know what you think about the finished design. I modified the
                      > original plans to fit my available materials. It is much easier to
                      > operate than my previous attempts. At least I don't have to climb a
                      > ladder to adjust things and work with the water hoses.
                      >
                    • pint_o_shine
                      ... Thank you. I have been working to improve my metal working skills to an artist level. I have yet to get to the polished level I want to get to.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 7, 2007
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                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" <polaris@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Good effort pint.
                        > Is that a liebic on the side to cool your product.
                        > What temp does it come out of the still and out of the liebic .
                        Thank you. I have been working to improve my metal working skills to
                        an artist level. I have yet to get to the polished level I want to get
                        to. Unfortunately, unless I get orders for more work, my practice is
                        at and end until I start my sorghum grinder and press.

                        The temp out of the column for the product is 168.9°F. This is just
                        below the evaporating temperature of the ETOH. We had record high
                        temps here today and yesterday at 101°F outside, and the temp of my
                        cooling water was 87°F yesterday. The product comes out of the heat
                        exchanger at 87°F also.

                        > The sight glass could be fixed by lowering it a bit, then the level
                        > of the liquid would be easily seen on the glass.
                        > regards pol

                        The sight glass works OK. I should have expected the fogging problem.
                        I was thinking the glass would behave similarly to the glass jar I use
                        for a thumper/doubler. It generally achieves a temp above the
                        condensation and stays clear. This glass collects the vapor constantly
                        and it looks like rain on the glass. It is functional, but it is
                        difficult to use.
                      • sn_cur
                        That s a serious beast you got there, Pinto. Looks damn good. Should last you forever. What did you end up using as a seal in the filler cap? sn
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 7, 2007
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                          That's a serious beast you got there, Pinto. Looks damn good. Should last you forever.

                          What did you end up using as a seal in the filler cap?

                          sn
                        • pint_o_shine
                          ... last you forever. ... I used GE RTV pure silicone I. I also fabricated the gaskets between the flanges from the same material using a mold I turned on my
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 8, 2007
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                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sn_cur" <sn_cur@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > That's a serious beast you got there, Pinto. Looks damn good. Should
                            last you forever.
                            >
                            > What did you end up using as a seal in the filler cap?
                            >
                            > sn
                            >

                            I used GE RTV pure silicone I. I also fabricated the gaskets between
                            the flanges from the same material using a mold I turned on my lathe.
                          • pint_o_shine
                            I charged it with 10 gallons at 47% and the site glass cleared up a bit and the internal workings became clear. There was nothing unexpected happening. I
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 9, 2007
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                              I charged it with 10 gallons at 47% and the site glass cleared up a
                              bit and the internal workings became clear. There was nothing
                              unexpected happening. I thought you might like to see also so here is
                              a short clip.
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0ji5pn7eO8
                            • sn_cur
                              ... Sure did. Thanks for that.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 9, 2007
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                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >I thought you might like to see also so here is
                                > a short clip.
                                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0ji5pn7eO8
                                >


                                Sure did. Thanks for that.
                              • just me
                                that was great pintoshine
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 9, 2007
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                                  that was great pintoshine
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