## Re: Stainless Steel Pure Grain StillI

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• SNIP It seems tiny compared to the diameter of the column. The vapour will be passing through. ... I can appreciate the concern. There are a lot of myths
Message 1 of 28 , Jul 27, 2007
SNIP>
It seems tiny compared to the diameter of the column. The vapour will
be passing through.
>

I can appreciate the concern. There are a lot of myths about pipe
size and back pressure. It is all relavent to the input heat though.

I use my spread sheet and my fluid dynamics knowlege to figure out
the parts.

I originally designed the still to operate on 1125 watts. I can boil
up at 4500W but then I halve the voltage.

Most of the vapor is getting knocked down in the column and only a
trickle of 95% is getting through the hole. Running no reflux, the
output is only about 2 L/hr liquid.

Finding good information about ETOH is real hard so I approximated by
using steam. This will actually give a derating to the whole system
because the steam is what I will have near the end of a run.

I purposely leave the column un-insulated to allow a temperature
gradient so the scrubbers can work and have a gradient of vapor
pressures all along the column. Most of the separation is happening
in the column. What is moving through the hole is nearly pure grain.

Using pure water as the model, 1125 watts or 1125J/s can
evaporate .5g/s steam or 1.79 L/hr.
The opening has a 7.9 mm radius or a cross section of 1.93*10^-4 m^2.
Using 1.67 m^3 per kg for steam at atmospheric pressure and 100°C,
this gives 3 m^3 per hour or 8.32*10^-4 m^3/s through the opening.

Using 1.79 L/hr as a maximum, not including losses in the column and
the boiler, the velocity through the opening maximum is 8.32*10^-4
m^3/s / 1.93*10^-4 m^2 = 4.3m/s . This gives a head drop of 0.89 m
and the orifice size of 15.8 mm and a orifice coefficient of .98 for
steam this is 1.4 psi pressure drop. This is well within the
tolerances of the system since this is an absolute maximum.
• --dear pint going to be a bastard when your country goes completly metric and you have to change your name to 425 ml [or whatever] sorry it s my typical aussie
Message 2 of 28 , Jul 27, 2007
--dear pint

going to be a bastard when your country goes completly metric and you
have to change your name to 425 ml [or whatever]

sorry it's my typical aussie humour

my reason for this question is that the activity is binary

many regards brian

- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
>
> SNIP>
> It seems tiny compared to the diameter of the column. The vapour will
> be passing through.
> >
>
> I can appreciate the concern. There are a lot of myths about pipe
> size and back pressure. It is all relavent to the input heat though.
>
> I use my spread sheet and my fluid dynamics knowlege to figure out
> the parts.
>
> I originally designed the still to operate on 1125 watts. I can boil
> up at 4500W but then I halve the voltage.
>
> Most of the vapor is getting knocked down in the column and only a
> trickle of 95% is getting through the hole. Running no reflux, the
> output is only about 2 L/hr liquid.
>
> Finding good information about ETOH is real hard so I approximated by
> using steam. This will actually give a derating to the whole system
> because the steam is what I will have near the end of a run.
>
> I purposely leave the column un-insulated to allow a temperature
> gradient so the scrubbers can work and have a gradient of vapor
> pressures all along the column. Most of the separation is happening
> in the column. What is moving through the hole is nearly pure grain.
>
> Using pure water as the model, 1125 watts or 1125J/s can
> evaporate .5g/s steam or 1.79 L/hr.
> The opening has a 7.9 mm radius or a cross section of 1.93*10^-4 m^2.
> Using 1.67 m^3 per kg for steam at atmospheric pressure and 100°C,
> this gives 3 m^3 per hour or 8.32*10^-4 m^3/s through the opening.
>
> Using 1.79 L/hr as a maximum, not including losses in the column and
> the boiler, the velocity through the opening maximum is 8.32*10^-4
> m^3/s / 1.93*10^-4 m^2 = 4.3m/s . This gives a head drop of 0.89 m
> and the orifice size of 15.8 mm and a orifice coefficient of .98 for
> steam this is 1.4 psi pressure drop. This is well within the
> tolerances of the system since this is an absolute maximum.
>
• To write calculations in this format 345² × 678³ ÷ ¾ = ± 360° and a whole lot more like ® æ ¶ ñ follow this link.
Message 3 of 28 , Jul 27, 2007
To write calculations in this format 345² × 678³ ÷ ¾ = ± 360°
and a whole lot more like ® æ ¶ ñ follow this link.

http://www.forlang.wsu.edu/help/keyboards.asp

It may have been aired here before but for the new members it may be
usefull.

regards pol

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...>
wrote:
>
> Using pure water as the model, 1125 watts or 1125J/s can
> evaporate .5g/s steam or 1.79 L/hr.
> The opening has a 7.9 mm radius or a cross section of 1.93*10^-4
m^2.
> Using 1.67 m^3 per kg for steam at atmospheric pressure and 100°C,
> this gives 3 m^3 per hour or 8.32*10^-4 m^3/s through the opening.
>
> Using 1.79 L/hr as a maximum, not including losses in the column
and
> the boiler, the velocity through the opening maximum is 8.32*10^-4
> m^3/s / 1.93*10^-4 m^2 = 4.3m/s . This gives a head drop of 0.89 m
> and the orifice size of 15.8 mm and a orifice coefficient of .98
for
> steam this is 1.4 psi pressure drop. This is well within the
> tolerances of the system since this is an absolute maximum.
>
• ... Now that s funny. I ll probably be buying ½ Liter jars then. So I ll be able to stick a pint in there with a little extra. When I was a small one my
Message 4 of 28 , Jul 28, 2007
> going to be a bastard when your country goes completly metric and you
> have to change your name to 425 ml [or whatever]

Now that's funny. I'll probably be buying ½ Liter jars then. So I'll
be able to stick a pint in there with a little extra.
When I was a small one my grandfather always called me half-pint. Now
I can be half-liter.

> re your last brilliant post ,,,would your figures change slightly as
> yield progress was made /????????????????
>
> my reason for this question is that the activity is binary
>
> many regards brian

Thank you for the "brilliant" compliment part.
You must have skipped this part though.

>>Finding good information about ETOH is real hard so I approximated
by using steam. This will actually give a derating to the whole system
because the steam is what I will have near the end of a run.

And this part

>>This is well within the tolerances of the system since this is an
absolute maximum.

With this statement I was suggesting that ETOH and all binary mixtures
will be less of an impact. I could be wrong. I was hoping someone
would double check my figures. I hate making a math mistake and have
it bite me in the rear when I get something built.

Oh well it is metal. It can be cut and rewelded many times until I get
it right.
• dear pint or half litre and a bit thanks for your humour and reply yes i spent 43 years in the industry and i am no doubt reading more into your post than i
Message 5 of 28 , Jul 28, 2007
dear pint or half litre and a bit

yes i spent 43 years in the industry and i am no doubt reading more
into your post than i should,,,,,,i was in fact seeing ethanol / water
wash [feedstock] as having more impact because of it's volatility than
steam======given identical conditions of course

your maths are impecable based on information given,,,,,i speak fluent
maths too but with an aussie accent

you are obviously a chemical engineer or similar ==check your maths in
either PERRY or COULSON et al--even then all is only a guide ,,so many
other factors as you know

glad to see you are a fan of the non-insulated column in respect of
gaining maximum reflux

many regards brian

- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
>
> > going to be a bastard when your country goes completly metric and you
> > have to change your name to 425 ml [or whatever]
>
> Now that's funny. I'll probably be buying ½ Liter jars then. So I'll
> be able to stick a pint in there with a little extra.
> When I was a small one my grandfather always called me half-pint. Now
> I can be half-liter.
>
> > re your last brilliant post ,,,would your figures change slightly as
> > yield progress was made /????????????????
> >
> > my reason for this question is that the activity is binary
> >
> > many regards brian
>
> Thank you for the "brilliant" compliment part.
> You must have skipped this part though.
>
> >>Finding good information about ETOH is real hard so I approximated
> by using steam. This will actually give a derating to the whole system
> because the steam is what I will have near the end of a run.
>
> And this part
>
> >>This is well within the tolerances of the system since this is an
> absolute maximum.
>
> With this statement I was suggesting that ETOH and all binary mixtures
> will be less of an impact. I could be wrong. I was hoping someone
> would double check my figures. I hate making a math mistake and have
> it bite me in the rear when I get something built.
>
> Oh well it is metal. It can be cut and rewelded many times until I get
> it right.
>
• ... You are very welcome. I generally take everything lightly, but my communication habit makes me sound like too much of a hard ass sometimes. ... the job
Message 6 of 28 , Jul 28, 2007
wrote:
>
> dear pint or half litre and a bit
>
You are very welcome. I generally take everything lightly, but my
communication habit makes me sound like too much of a hard ass sometimes.
>I started college as a ChemE but transferred to Electrical because of
the job market. I loved the math and the problem solving in my
classes. I only graduated a bit over ten years ago but the math never
left my mind like it does for a lot of people. The wealth of
information at my finger tips, with the internet, makes me an
engineering junkie.
The thermodynamics is the part I love the most. Understanding heat
flow and phase transformation and especially the controlling inputs.
I am a software program lead now at UPS and I use the chemical
engineering and metal work as a diversion from the computer overload
at work.

By the way I fabricated all the parts for the cap and the mounting
ears for the tank today.

yes i spent 43 years in the industry and i am no doubt reading more
> into your post than i should,,,,,,i was in fact seeing ethanol /
water wash [feedstock] as having more impact because of it's
volatility than
> steam======given identical conditions of course

The feed stock for this one is usually going to be 50% Etoh and water
from my big pot still. I will usually charge it with 50 liters. The
tank itself is 58.7 liters. When I weld the tank, I also make plates
or plugs to block all the openings. I use my compressor with the
regulator set to 25 psi to pressure check all the welds. I had a bad
accident with alcohol vapor about 25 years ago and am a stickler for
leaks. Zero tolerance for leaks.

I believe you are correct about the ETOH being more volitile.
ETOH H20
Heat of Vaporisation J/g 855 2260 Perry 3-178

I will run the numbers using Dalton's law of partial pressures and see
the results. As long as I am no where near Mach 1,which should occur
at a pressure ratio of .528 or 13.14 psig, then every thing is cool.
The pressure will stabilize and the max psi because of the orifice
shouldn't be much more but I could be surprised.
• ... You DO fill it with water before pressurization, right? As, I assume you know, if it is full of water any failures are safer - and leaks are easier to
Message 7 of 28 , Jul 31, 2007
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...>
wrote:
> I use my compressor with the
> regulator set to 25 psi to pressure check all the welds. I had a bad
> accident with alcohol vapor about 25 years ago and am a stickler for
> leaks. Zero tolerance for leaks.

You DO fill it with water before pressurization, right? As, I assume you
know, if it is full of water any failures are safer - and leaks are
easier to find. Also, 15 psi should be plenty to leak check a part for
a still that isn't really intended to hold any pressure at all anyway.

Nicely designed still - I always love to see what you get up to.
• I finished it and I did the commissioning run last night. I charged it with 26 liters of 14% mixture of water and high proof from a previous run that I was not
Message 8 of 28 , Aug 7, 2007
I finished it and I did the commissioning run last night.
I charged it with 26 liters of 14% mixture of water and high proof
from a previous run that I was not satisfied with the flavor.
After It reach equilibrium, a measured the max takeoff. It was
50ml/minute. I poured what the contents back into the boiler.
I closed the valve and allowed it to equalize again. I started taking
off alcohol at 95%. It stayed there for the first 3 liters taking it
off at a rate of 5ml/minute. 10:1 reflux removed all the flavor. I was
very satisfied with the results. It took a half a liter to get all the
milkiness out of the watered down spirits. After that it was real nice.

The sight glass proved to be nearly worthless. It fogged up
immediately. After the volume of vapor picked up a bit I was able to
look between the droplets and see the level in the holding pool enough
to tell it was draining back down the column correctly. I was also
able to verify the volume of vapor did not interfere with the liquid
flow downward.

I took some pictures after I got it cleaned up from the first run. You
can view then at
http://www.artisan-distiller.org/bokakob/finished.htm

I will run it a bit faster whenever I get some stripping done. I am
anxious to get 50 liters at 45% to run. I bet it will not need so
much reflux then.
Let me know what you think about the finished design. I modified the
original plans to fit my available materials. It is much easier to
operate than my previous attempts. At least I don't have to climb a
• Good effort pint. Is that a liebic on the side to cool your product. What temp does it come out of the still and out of the liebic. The sight glass could be
Message 9 of 28 , Aug 7, 2007
Good effort pint.
Is that a liebic on the side to cool your product.
What temp does it come out of the still and out of the liebic.
The sight glass could be fixed by lowering it a bit, then the level
of the liquid would be easily seen on the glass.
regards pol

-- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...>
wrote:
>
> I finished it and I did the commissioning run last night.
> I charged it with 26 liters of 14% mixture of water and high proof
> from a previous run that I was not satisfied with the flavor.
> After It reach equilibrium, a measured the max takeoff. It was
> 50ml/minute. I poured what the contents back into the boiler.
> I closed the valve and allowed it to equalize again. I started
taking
> off alcohol at 95%. It stayed there for the first 3 liters taking it
> off at a rate of 5ml/minute. 10:1 reflux removed all the flavor. I
was
> very satisfied with the results. It took a half a liter to get all
the
> milkiness out of the watered down spirits. After that it was real
nice.
>
> The sight glass proved to be nearly worthless. It fogged up
> immediately. After the volume of vapor picked up a bit I was able to
> look between the droplets and see the level in the holding pool
enough
> to tell it was draining back down the column correctly. I was also
> able to verify the volume of vapor did not interfere with the liquid
> flow downward.
>
> I took some pictures after I got it cleaned up from the first run.
You
> can view then at
> http://www.artisan-distiller.org/bokakob/finished.htm
>
> I will run it a bit faster whenever I get some stripping done. I am
> anxious to get 50 liters at 45% to run. I bet it will not need so
> much reflux then.
> Let me know what you think about the finished design. I modified the
> original plans to fit my available materials. It is much easier to
> operate than my previous attempts. At least I don't have to climb a
>
• ... Thank you. I have been working to improve my metal working skills to an artist level. I have yet to get to the polished level I want to get to.
Message 10 of 28 , Aug 7, 2007
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" <polaris@...> wrote:
>
> Good effort pint.
> Is that a liebic on the side to cool your product.
> What temp does it come out of the still and out of the liebic .
Thank you. I have been working to improve my metal working skills to
an artist level. I have yet to get to the polished level I want to get
to. Unfortunately, unless I get orders for more work, my practice is
at and end until I start my sorghum grinder and press.

The temp out of the column for the product is 168.9°F. This is just
below the evaporating temperature of the ETOH. We had record high
temps here today and yesterday at 101°F outside, and the temp of my
cooling water was 87°F yesterday. The product comes out of the heat
exchanger at 87°F also.

> The sight glass could be fixed by lowering it a bit, then the level
> of the liquid would be easily seen on the glass.
> regards pol

The sight glass works OK. I should have expected the fogging problem.
I was thinking the glass would behave similarly to the glass jar I use
for a thumper/doubler. It generally achieves a temp above the
condensation and stays clear. This glass collects the vapor constantly
and it looks like rain on the glass. It is functional, but it is
difficult to use.
• That s a serious beast you got there, Pinto. Looks damn good. Should last you forever. What did you end up using as a seal in the filler cap? sn
Message 11 of 28 , Aug 7, 2007
That's a serious beast you got there, Pinto. Looks damn good. Should last you forever.

What did you end up using as a seal in the filler cap?

sn
• ... last you forever. ... I used GE RTV pure silicone I. I also fabricated the gaskets between the flanges from the same material using a mold I turned on my
Message 12 of 28 , Aug 8, 2007
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sn_cur" <sn_cur@...> wrote:
>
> That's a serious beast you got there, Pinto. Looks damn good. Should
last you forever.
>
> What did you end up using as a seal in the filler cap?
>
> sn
>

I used GE RTV pure silicone I. I also fabricated the gaskets between
the flanges from the same material using a mold I turned on my lathe.
• I charged it with 10 gallons at 47% and the site glass cleared up a bit and the internal workings became clear. There was nothing unexpected happening. I
Message 13 of 28 , Aug 9, 2007
I charged it with 10 gallons at 47% and the site glass cleared up a
bit and the internal workings became clear. There was nothing
unexpected happening. I thought you might like to see also so here is
a short clip.
• ... Sure did. Thanks for that.
Message 14 of 28 , Aug 9, 2007
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
>