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Re: [Distillers] Re: All grain (plus enzymes) corn whiskey - LONG

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  • knarl
    I just did a little reading about lactobacillus on wikipedia, and lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in general. I also make my own yoghurt and yoghurt cheese. It got
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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      I just did a little reading about lactobacillus on wikipedia, and
      lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in general.

      I also make my own yoghurt and yoghurt cheese. It got me thinking that
      maybe I could give the LAB a headstart of my own by adding some whey
      (acidic liquid strained from coagulated proteins in yoghurt) that
      would be teaming with LAB. Will it give me the same benefits as the
      natural stuff on the corn?

      Would the acid produced if I used a lactobacillus starter of whatever
      kind make the pH too low for enzymes and/or ale yeast to work
      properly??

      Cheers,
      knarl.

      On 6/6/07, knarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
      > I assume the starter would smell bad for the first few days becasue
      > it's infected with all sorts of junk, and then does the lactobacillus
      > overwhelm everything? Then adding lactobacillus rich starter to the
      > main batch gives it a head start down the lactobacillus path, saving
      > it from other infections?
      >
      > Sounds like a really good plan, but I wish I had a microscope (and
      > knew how to use it) to check that it was actually lactobacillus I was
      > breeding =).
      >
      > So adding the corn to boiling water won't be enough to keep it from
      > becoming infected for a couple of days?
      >
      > Now I have some pondering to do... Thanks Pint! =)
      >
      > Cheers,
      > knarl.
      >
      > On 6/5/07, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:
      > > Your plan is spot on except for one thing. The initial soaking will
      > > spoil because corn carries with it the proper bacteria to cause it to
      > > bacterially ferment as soon as you add water. Some of the bacteria can
      > > be pretty nasty smelling beasts.
      > > This can be used to your advantage though. The initial step should be
      > > to put one fourth kilo of ground corn in a mason jar along with enough
      > > water to cover it twice its height. Allow this to ferment for three to
      > > four days. It will stink really bad on the first and second days. On
      > > the third or fourth day it will start smelling clean. I won't explain
      > > the lacto-fermentation process here, but I know this works from
      > > experience.
      > >
      > > Add this starter, grain and liquid, to your boiled water after it
      > > cools off to create an acidic, bacteria rich, steep liquor. The
      > > bacteria will be mostly lactobacillus which is beneficial in many ways.
      > >
      > > - The lactic acid will sour up the rest of the corn with beneficial
      > > bacteria to help prevent further bacterial contamination,
      > > - will break apart the proteins holding the starches together and make
      > > more starch available for conversion,
      > > - adds acidity which aids in the enzyme conversion,
      > > - will coagulate the water soluble proteins, during enzyme conversion,
      > > to help with separating the germ and the paricarp from the distillers
      > > beer and also help it to settle clear.
      > >
      > > This small short cut to sour mash will save you many hour of
      > > frustration and will prevent a lot of batches from going bad on
      > > initial startup.
      > >
      > > For your second batch, make sure to retain a small amount of the steep
      > > liquor from your first batch, before conversion, to get the second
      > > batch going.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Gday Guys,
      > > >
      > > > I've formulated a plan to produce a 100% corn whiskey, and I'd
      > > > appreciate any comments on my plan.
      > > >
      > > > I'm a seasoned neutral alc producer from sugar wash (1.6 meter tall LM
      > > > still), and I do pretty nice light rum (same still). I've even had a
      > > > crack or two at heavy rum by collecting the rum oil fraction. Lately I
      > > > just finished an orange brandy using my pot still (short 50mm column
      > > > with slanted plates and no valve - hence no reflux) and it turned out
      > > > great, so now I know I can get something good out of my pot still I'm
      > > > on a mission to produce whiskey.
      > > >
      > > > At the moment I have a wash going that has malt extract, corn and
      > > > sugar in it. It was a mainly a practice at mashing some corn (1kg)
      > > > using enzymes (alpha and beta amylase) so that I'm confident to do a
      > > > bigger batch. It went fine, so here's my plan for 100% corn whiskey:
      > > >
      > > > Day 1:
      > > > - Bring 35L of water to the boil in my 50L SS keg with the top cut off.
      > > > - Add 10kg of cracked corn from the feed store
      > > > - cover and let it sit for a day or two to soften (it's very dry corn
      > > > - even my pressure cooker had a hard time of cooking the small batch)
      > > >
      > > > Day 3:
      > > > - Heat it until it turns to mush (stirring or using my keg in keg
      > > double boiler)
      > > > - Add enzymes at appropriate temperatures (60 mins to liquefy)
      > > > - Leave overnight for further conversion.
      > > >
      > > > Day 4:
      > > > - Add ale yeast and a fish tank heater set to 25C
      > > > - Cover with cloth
      > > >
      > > > Stir daily (or at least once or twice)
      > > >
      > > > Day 10 (or when it's done fermenting):
      > > > - Strain the liquid from the grain into another 50L SS keg with the
      > > top cut off
      > > > - Sparge with enough water to almost fill the keg
      > > > - Cover and stand to let yeast settle out
      > > >
      > > > Day 15:
      > > > - Rack into still and save yeast to use in the next batch
      > > > - Strip off about 6L keeping all
      > > >
      > > > REPEAT 4 more times for a projected total of 30L of low wines @ 40% abv.
      > > > Spirit run should give me enough hearts for 20L of drinking strength
      > > > (40%) after it's aged plus feints.
      > > >
      > > > I assumed corn is 50% starch and I can convert 75% of it to
      > > > fermentable - is that reasonable?
      > > > Does it sound like a good plan? Is there something major I'm
      > > > overlooking? Does anyone have experience with 100% corn whiskey? Is it
      > > > going to be hard to sparge? Will my plan to reuse yeast work?
      > > >
      > > > Thanks to anyone who read this far!
      > > >
      > > > Cheers,
      > > > knarl.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • pint_o_shine
      I have never tried it. The LAB in yogurt is Lactobacillus bulgaricus, Lactococcus thermophilus and L. acidophilis. I don t know that these would affect
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 6, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        I have never tried it. The LAB in yogurt is Lactobacillus bulgaricus,
        Lactococcus thermophilus and L. acidophilis.
        I don't know that these would affect anything but I believe they are
        keyed to the proteins in milk products. The one that likes corn starch
        and protein called zein is a homofermentative type cal LAB plantarum.

        To answer your question about LAB takeover, yes that is exactly what
        happens. Pediococcus cerevisiae, which is a lambic culture and
        Saccharomyces cerevisiae, brewing yeast, all seem to form a symbiotic
        relationship. Many studies have been made on these three
        spontaneously cofermenting lots of grain based products.

        I did not know you were adding the corn directly to the boiling water.
        I use that method for simple infusion mashing for barley but I can't
        get it to work for corn because of its higher gelatinization
        temperatures. I thought you might be boiling the water to get rid of
        chlorine or chloramine.

        If you dechlorinate the water by letting it air out while you are
        allowing your starter to ferment, you can skip the boiling all
        together. Just put it in an open container and put a cloth over it to
        keep the dust out. I have the luxury of catching rain water, which
        comes complete with a lot of dissolved CO2. This stuff kick starts a
        fermentation as if it were magic or something.

        If you want something really interesting to study, Maybe you should
        check out making hominy or nixtamal (wiki Nixtamalization), and
        mashing the converted corn. I've done this with some amazing
        efficiency results. The alkaline processing really releases the starch
        and converts the protein into a much easier to process form. Just a
        thought.




        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
        >
        > I just did a little reading about lactobacillus on wikipedia, and
        > lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in general.
        >
        > I also make my own yoghurt and yoghurt cheese. It got me thinking that
        > maybe I could give the LAB a headstart of my own by adding some whey
        > (acidic liquid strained from coagulated proteins in yoghurt) that
        > would be teaming with LAB. Will it give me the same benefits as the
        > natural stuff on the corn?
        >
        > Would the acid produced if I used a lactobacillus starter of whatever
        > kind make the pH too low for enzymes and/or ale yeast to work
        > properly??
        >
        > Cheers,
        > knarl.
        >
        > On 6/6/07, knarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
        > > I assume the starter would smell bad for the first few days becasue
        > > it's infected with all sorts of junk, and then does the lactobacillus
        > > overwhelm everything? Then adding lactobacillus rich starter to the
        > > main batch gives it a head start down the lactobacillus path, saving
        > > it from other infections?
        > >
        > > Sounds like a really good plan, but I wish I had a microscope (and
        > > knew how to use it) to check that it was actually lactobacillus I was
        > > breeding =).
        > >
        > > So adding the corn to boiling water won't be enough to keep it from
        > > becoming infected for a couple of days?
        > >
        > > Now I have some pondering to do... Thanks Pint! =)
        > >
        > > Cheers,
        > > knarl.
        > >
        > > On 6/5/07, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:
        > > > Your plan is spot on except for one thing. The initial soaking will
        > > > spoil because corn carries with it the proper bacteria to cause
        it to
        > > > bacterially ferment as soon as you add water. Some of the
        bacteria can
        > > > be pretty nasty smelling beasts.
        > > > This can be used to your advantage though. The initial step
        should be
        > > > to put one fourth kilo of ground corn in a mason jar along with
        enough
        > > > water to cover it twice its height. Allow this to ferment for
        three to
        > > > four days. It will stink really bad on the first and second days. On
        > > > the third or fourth day it will start smelling clean. I won't
        explain
        > > > the lacto-fermentation process here, but I know this works from
        > > > experience.
        > > >
        > > > Add this starter, grain and liquid, to your boiled water after it
        > > > cools off to create an acidic, bacteria rich, steep liquor. The
        > > > bacteria will be mostly lactobacillus which is beneficial in
        many ways.
        > > >
        > > > - The lactic acid will sour up the rest of the corn with beneficial
        > > > bacteria to help prevent further bacterial contamination,
        > > > - will break apart the proteins holding the starches together
        and make
        > > > more starch available for conversion,
        > > > - adds acidity which aids in the enzyme conversion,
        > > > - will coagulate the water soluble proteins, during enzyme
        conversion,
        > > > to help with separating the germ and the paricarp from the
        distillers
        > > > beer and also help it to settle clear.
        > > >
        > > > This small short cut to sour mash will save you many hour of
        > > > frustration and will prevent a lot of batches from going bad on
        > > > initial startup.
        > > >
        > > > For your second batch, make sure to retain a small amount of the
        steep
        > > > liquor from your first batch, before conversion, to get the second
        > > > batch going.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Gday Guys,
        > > > >
        > > > > I've formulated a plan to produce a 100% corn whiskey, and I'd
        > > > > appreciate any comments on my plan.
        > > > >
        > > > > I'm a seasoned neutral alc producer from sugar wash (1.6 meter
        tall LM
        > > > > still), and I do pretty nice light rum (same still). I've even
        had a
        > > > > crack or two at heavy rum by collecting the rum oil fraction.
        Lately I
        > > > > just finished an orange brandy using my pot still (short 50mm
        column
        > > > > with slanted plates and no valve - hence no reflux) and it
        turned out
        > > > > great, so now I know I can get something good out of my pot
        still I'm
        > > > > on a mission to produce whiskey.
        > > > >
        > > > > At the moment I have a wash going that has malt extract, corn and
        > > > > sugar in it. It was a mainly a practice at mashing some corn (1kg)
        > > > > using enzymes (alpha and beta amylase) so that I'm confident
        to do a
        > > > > bigger batch. It went fine, so here's my plan for 100% corn
        whiskey:
        > > > >
        > > > > Day 1:
        > > > > - Bring 35L of water to the boil in my 50L SS keg with the top
        cut off.
        > > > > - Add 10kg of cracked corn from the feed store
        > > > > - cover and let it sit for a day or two to soften (it's very
        dry corn
        > > > > - even my pressure cooker had a hard time of cooking the small
        batch)
        > > > >
        > > > > Day 3:
        > > > > - Heat it until it turns to mush (stirring or using my keg in keg
        > > > double boiler)
        > > > > - Add enzymes at appropriate temperatures (60 mins to liquefy)
        > > > > - Leave overnight for further conversion.
        > > > >
        > > > > Day 4:
        > > > > - Add ale yeast and a fish tank heater set to 25C
        > > > > - Cover with cloth
        > > > >
        > > > > Stir daily (or at least once or twice)
        > > > >
        > > > > Day 10 (or when it's done fermenting):
        > > > > - Strain the liquid from the grain into another 50L SS keg
        with the
        > > > top cut off
        > > > > - Sparge with enough water to almost fill the keg
        > > > > - Cover and stand to let yeast settle out
        > > > >
        > > > > Day 15:
        > > > > - Rack into still and save yeast to use in the next batch
        > > > > - Strip off about 6L keeping all
        > > > >
        > > > > REPEAT 4 more times for a projected total of 30L of low wines
        @ 40% abv.
        > > > > Spirit run should give me enough hearts for 20L of drinking
        strength
        > > > > (40%) after it's aged plus feints.
        > > > >
        > > > > I assumed corn is 50% starch and I can convert 75% of it to
        > > > > fermentable - is that reasonable?
        > > > > Does it sound like a good plan? Is there something major I'm
        > > > > overlooking? Does anyone have experience with 100% corn
        whiskey? Is it
        > > > > going to be hard to sparge? Will my plan to reuse yeast work?
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks to anyone who read this far!
        > > > >
        > > > > Cheers,
        > > > > knarl.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • bbornais
        It should be noted that chloramines do do not dissipate into the air quickly like chlorine. There are cheap dechlorinating additives in the aquarium section of
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 6, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          It should be noted that chloramines do do not dissipate into the air
          quickly like chlorine.

          There are cheap dechlorinating additives in the aquarium section of
          the pet store. These are safe, non-toxic, and are effective at
          chelating the chloramine out of the water in a short period of time.

          Bryan.

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I have never tried it. The LAB in yogurt is Lactobacillus
          bulgaricus,
          > Lactococcus thermophilus and L. acidophilis.
          > I don't know that these would affect anything but I believe they are
          > keyed to the proteins in milk products. The one that likes corn
          starch
          > and protein called zein is a homofermentative type cal LAB
          plantarum.
          >
          > To answer your question about LAB takeover, yes that is exactly what
          > happens. Pediococcus cerevisiae, which is a lambic culture and
          > Saccharomyces cerevisiae, brewing yeast, all seem to form a
          symbiotic
          > relationship. Many studies have been made on these three
          > spontaneously cofermenting lots of grain based products.
          >
          > I did not know you were adding the corn directly to the boiling
          water.
          > I use that method for simple infusion mashing for barley but I can't
          > get it to work for corn because of its higher gelatinization
          > temperatures. I thought you might be boiling the water to get rid of
          > chlorine or chloramine.
          >
          > If you dechlorinate the water by letting it air out while you are
          > allowing your starter to ferment, you can skip the boiling all
          > together. Just put it in an open container and put a cloth over it
          to
          > keep the dust out. I have the luxury of catching rain water, which
          > comes complete with a lot of dissolved CO2. This stuff kick starts a
          > fermentation as if it were magic or something.
          >
          > If you want something really interesting to study, Maybe you should
          > check out making hominy or nixtamal (wiki Nixtamalization), and
          > mashing the converted corn. I've done this with some amazing
          > efficiency results. The alkaline processing really releases the
          starch
          > and converts the protein into a much easier to process form. Just a
          > thought.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I just did a little reading about lactobacillus on wikipedia, and
          > > lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in general.
          > >
          > > I also make my own yoghurt and yoghurt cheese. It got me thinking
          that
          > > maybe I could give the LAB a headstart of my own by adding some
          whey
          > > (acidic liquid strained from coagulated proteins in yoghurt) that
          > > would be teaming with LAB. Will it give me the same benefits as
          the
          > > natural stuff on the corn?
          > >
          > > Would the acid produced if I used a lactobacillus starter of
          whatever
          > > kind make the pH too low for enzymes and/or ale yeast to work
          > > properly??
          > >
          > > Cheers,
          > > knarl.
          > >
          > > On 6/6/07, knarl <dearknarl@> wrote:
          > > > I assume the starter would smell bad for the first few days
          becasue
          > > > it's infected with all sorts of junk, and then does the
          lactobacillus
          > > > overwhelm everything? Then adding lactobacillus rich starter to
          the
          > > > main batch gives it a head start down the lactobacillus path,
          saving
          > > > it from other infections?
          > > >
          > > > Sounds like a really good plan, but I wish I had a microscope
          (and
          > > > knew how to use it) to check that it was actually lactobacillus
          I was
          > > > breeding =).
          > > >
          > > > So adding the corn to boiling water won't be enough to keep it
          from
          > > > becoming infected for a couple of days?
          > > >
          > > > Now I have some pondering to do... Thanks Pint! =)
          > > >
          > > > Cheers,
          > > > knarl.
          > > >
          > > > On 6/5/07, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@> wrote:
          > > > > Your plan is spot on except for one thing. The initial
          soaking will
          > > > > spoil because corn carries with it the proper bacteria to
          cause
          > it to
          > > > > bacterially ferment as soon as you add water. Some of the
          > bacteria can
          > > > > be pretty nasty smelling beasts.
          > > > > This can be used to your advantage though. The initial step
          > should be
          > > > > to put one fourth kilo of ground corn in a mason jar along
          with
          > enough
          > > > > water to cover it twice its height. Allow this to ferment for
          > three to
          > > > > four days. It will stink really bad on the first and second
          days. On
          > > > > the third or fourth day it will start smelling clean. I won't
          > explain
          > > > > the lacto-fermentation process here, but I know this works
          from
          > > > > experience.
          > > > >
          > > > > Add this starter, grain and liquid, to your boiled water
          after it
          > > > > cools off to create an acidic, bacteria rich, steep liquor.
          The
          > > > > bacteria will be mostly lactobacillus which is beneficial in
          > many ways.
          > > > >
          > > > > - The lactic acid will sour up the rest of the corn with
          beneficial
          > > > > bacteria to help prevent further bacterial contamination,
          > > > > - will break apart the proteins holding the starches together
          > and make
          > > > > more starch available for conversion,
          > > > > - adds acidity which aids in the enzyme conversion,
          > > > > - will coagulate the water soluble proteins, during enzyme
          > conversion,
          > > > > to help with separating the germ and the paricarp from the
          > distillers
          > > > > beer and also help it to settle clear.
          > > > >
          > > > > This small short cut to sour mash will save you many hour of
          > > > > frustration and will prevent a lot of batches from going bad
          on
          > > > > initial startup.
          > > > >
          > > > > For your second batch, make sure to retain a small amount of
          the
          > steep
          > > > > liquor from your first batch, before conversion, to get the
          second
          > > > > batch going.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Gday Guys,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I've formulated a plan to produce a 100% corn whiskey, and
          I'd
          > > > > > appreciate any comments on my plan.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I'm a seasoned neutral alc producer from sugar wash (1.6
          meter
          > tall LM
          > > > > > still), and I do pretty nice light rum (same still). I've
          even
          > had a
          > > > > > crack or two at heavy rum by collecting the rum oil
          fraction.
          > Lately I
          > > > > > just finished an orange brandy using my pot still (short
          50mm
          > column
          > > > > > with slanted plates and no valve - hence no reflux) and it
          > turned out
          > > > > > great, so now I know I can get something good out of my pot
          > still I'm
          > > > > > on a mission to produce whiskey.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > At the moment I have a wash going that has malt extract,
          corn and
          > > > > > sugar in it. It was a mainly a practice at mashing some
          corn (1kg)
          > > > > > using enzymes (alpha and beta amylase) so that I'm confident
          > to do a
          > > > > > bigger batch. It went fine, so here's my plan for 100% corn
          > whiskey:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Day 1:
          > > > > > - Bring 35L of water to the boil in my 50L SS keg with the
          top
          > cut off.
          > > > > > - Add 10kg of cracked corn from the feed store
          > > > > > - cover and let it sit for a day or two to soften (it's very
          > dry corn
          > > > > > - even my pressure cooker had a hard time of cooking the
          small
          > batch)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Day 3:
          > > > > > - Heat it until it turns to mush (stirring or using my keg
          in keg
          > > > > double boiler)
          > > > > > - Add enzymes at appropriate temperatures (60 mins to
          liquefy)
          > > > > > - Leave overnight for further conversion.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Day 4:
          > > > > > - Add ale yeast and a fish tank heater set to 25C
          > > > > > - Cover with cloth
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Stir daily (or at least once or twice)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Day 10 (or when it's done fermenting):
          > > > > > - Strain the liquid from the grain into another 50L SS keg
          > with the
          > > > > top cut off
          > > > > > - Sparge with enough water to almost fill the keg
          > > > > > - Cover and stand to let yeast settle out
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Day 15:
          > > > > > - Rack into still and save yeast to use in the next batch
          > > > > > - Strip off about 6L keeping all
          > > > > >
          > > > > > REPEAT 4 more times for a projected total of 30L of low
          wines
          > @ 40% abv.
          > > > > > Spirit run should give me enough hearts for 20L of drinking
          > strength
          > > > > > (40%) after it's aged plus feints.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I assumed corn is 50% starch and I can convert 75% of it to
          > > > > > fermentable - is that reasonable?
          > > > > > Does it sound like a good plan? Is there something major I'm
          > > > > > overlooking? Does anyone have experience with 100% corn
          > whiskey? Is it
          > > > > > going to be hard to sparge? Will my plan to reuse yeast
          work?
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Thanks to anyone who read this far!
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Cheers,
          > > > > > knarl.
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • pint_o_shine
          I have personally tried the chloramine remover from the fish section and was not happy with the results. I have not tried but have seen it recommended to use
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 6, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            I have personally tried the chloramine remover from the fish section
            and was not happy with the results.

            I have not tried but have seen it recommended to use Campden tablets
            used to remove wild bacteria and yeast for wine making.
            http://www.kettlemoraine.com/mikesbeerpage/tech.php

            Here is a study that documents the effectiveness of using sulfite to
            remove nearly all know halides from waste water.
            http://www.seas.ucla.edu/stenstro/j/31


            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bbornais" <bbornais@...> wrote:
            >
            > It should be noted that chloramines do do not dissipate into the air
            > quickly like chlorine.
            >
            > There are cheap dechlorinating additives in the aquarium section of
            > the pet store. These are safe, non-toxic, and are effective at
            > chelating the chloramine out of the water in a short period of time.
            >
          • Robert Hubble
            Pint, This is good information and perfect timing for me. I just beer-stripped the first 2 polypails of corn beer, and have yet to start the next 2 batches
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 6, 2007
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              Pint,

              This is good information and perfect timing for me. I just beer-stripped the
              first 2 polypails of corn beer, and have yet to start the next 2 batches
              fermenting (I usually spirit-run the low wines from 4-6 batches of beer in
              one run). My problem is that enough time often elapses between starting
              fermentations, that keeping backset is not always possible, so I love your
              solution.

              Thanks , and I'll keep you posted on the bourbon's progress.

              Today, I 'm sewing up a special muslin straining bag for my new (last year's
              birthday) cider press,
              for pressing the beer out of the grain. Until now, I've used a jury-rigged
              perforated plastic pail, 5-gallon paint strainer, and a bowl full of lead
              ingots to press the beer from the grain, and it has been only a modest
              success.

              Between your bacterial starter and the bag, the next batches are going to be
              great.

              Thanks again.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller





              >From: "pint_o_shine" <pintoshine@...>
              >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [Distillers] Re: All grain (plus enzymes) corn whiskey - LONG
              >Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:27:17 -0000
              >
              ----snip----

              >This can be used to your advantage though. The initial step should be
              >to put one fourth kilo of ground corn in a mason jar along with enough
              >water to cover it twice its height. Allow this to ferment for three to
              >four days. It will stink really bad on the first and second days. On
              >the third or fourth day it will start smelling clean. I won't explain
              >the lacto-fermentation process here, but I know this works from
              >experience.
              >
              >Add this starter, grain and liquid, to your boiled water after it
              >cools off to create an acidic, bacteria rich, steep liquor. The
              >bacteria will be mostly lactobacillus which is beneficial in many ways.
              >
              >- The lactic acid will sour up the rest of the corn with beneficial
              >bacteria to help prevent further bacterial contamination,
              >- will break apart the proteins holding the starches together and make
              >more starch available for conversion,
              >- adds acidity which aids in the enzyme conversion,
              >- will coagulate the water soluble proteins, during enzyme conversion,
              >to help with separating the germ and the paricarp from the distillers
              >beer and also help it to settle clear.
              >
              >This small short cut to sour mash will save you many hour of
              >frustration and will prevent a lot of batches from going bad on
              >initial startup.
              >
              >For your second batch, make sure to retain a small amount of the steep
              >liquor from your first batch, before conversion, to get the second
              >batch going.
              >
              >
              >
              -----snip-----

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            • Harry
              ... (last year s ... jury-rigged ... of lead ... modest ... Hmmm....it might be time we put our collective thinking caps on and came up with a design for a
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 6, 2007
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                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@...>
                wrote:

                > Today, I 'm sewing up a special muslin straining bag for my new
                (last year's
                > birthday) cider press,
                > for pressing the beer out of the grain. Until now, I've used a
                jury-rigged
                > perforated plastic pail, 5-gallon paint strainer, and a bowl full
                of lead
                > ingots to press the beer from the grain, and it has been only a
                modest
                > success.



                Hmmm....it might be time we put our collective thinking caps on and
                came up with a design for a centrifuge. Maybe an old washing
                machine on spin cycle or similar? Just a thought. :)


                Slainte!
                regards Harry
              • Andrew
                ... The cooking sudafed in the bathroom types use modded fisher and paykel smart drive washing machines from what I have heard. You can buy just the motor part
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 6, 2007
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                  > Harry wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hmmm....it might be time we put our
                  > collective thinking caps on and came
                  > up with a design for a centrifuge.
                  >
                  > Maybe an old washing machine on spin
                  > cycle or similar? Just a thought. :)

                  The cooking sudafed in the bathroom
                  types use modded fisher and paykel
                  smart drive washing machines from what
                  I have heard.

                  You can buy just the motor part of them
                  for cheap from people that build
                  windmills from them.
                • Robert Hubble
                  Harry, I like that idea a lot, and have done some thinking along those lines, but when I approach the idea of prototyping something with existiing equipment
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 6, 2007
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                    Harry,

                    I like that idea a lot, and have done some thinking along those lines, but
                    when I approach
                    the idea of prototyping something with existiing equipment (read: the
                    household washing
                    machine), my wife starts radiating in the gamma spectrum.

                    To be fair, she's been a bit touchy since she came home while I was drying
                    shotgun shell
                    hulls in our dryer. Hey! They were in a bag!

                    This all supports the fact that most serious inventors were/are single, at
                    least AFTERWARD.

                    If we are thinking of building centrifuges from trash, it's worth noting
                    that (in the US, anyway)
                    diswasher motors are 3450 rpm, while most others are 1725 rpm.

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller





                    >From: "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...>
                    >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [Distillers] Re: All grain (plus enzymes) corn whiskey - LONG
                    >Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:38:07 -0000
                    >
                    >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@...>
                    >wrote:
                    >
                    > > Today, I 'm sewing up a special muslin straining bag for my new
                    >(last year's
                    > > birthday) cider press,
                    > > for pressing the beer out of the grain. Until now, I've used a
                    >jury-rigged
                    > > perforated plastic pail, 5-gallon paint strainer, and a bowl full
                    >of lead
                    > > ingots to press the beer from the grain, and it has been only a
                    >modest
                    > > success.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Hmmm....it might be time we put our collective thinking caps on and
                    >came up with a design for a centrifuge. Maybe an old washing
                    >machine on spin cycle or similar? Just a thought. :)
                    >
                    >
                    >Slainte!
                    >regards Harry
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
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                    http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
                  • knarl
                    Gday Pint, I am definitely going to have to give nixtamalization a go for my next batch! For this first batch I just added citric acid (and a little eznymes to
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 6, 2007
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                      Gday Pint,

                      I am definitely going to have to give nixtamalization a go for my next batch!

                      For this first batch I just added citric acid (and a little eznymes to
                      stop it getting thick too fast) and sat there stiring it like mad with
                      a gas burner under it until it boiled. I put some insulation on it and
                      left it overnight. This morning it was nice and cooked and just cool
                      enough to add my amylase (<70C). This arfternoon it should be ready to
                      hit it with glucoamylase (55C), and tomorrow I should be able aerate
                      and pitch.

                      It'll be really good to compare the yeilds with and without
                      nixtamalization. To acidify after nixtamalization to suit the enzymes
                      and yeast, do you just need a starter with LAB, or added acid as well?
                      What temperature would the LAB from the corn starter be most
                      effective? ~50C (that's what I make yoghurt at)?

                      Any ideas where I would start looking for some food grade CaO (or any
                      grade for that matter)?

                      Cheers,
                      knarl.

                      On 6/6/07, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                      > I have never tried it. The LAB in yogurt is Lactobacillus bulgaricus,
                      > Lactococcus thermophilus and L. acidophilis.
                      > I don't know that these would affect anything but I believe they are
                      > keyed to the proteins in milk products. The one that likes corn starch
                      > and protein called zein is a homofermentative type cal LAB plantarum.
                      >
                      > To answer your question about LAB takeover, yes that is exactly what
                      > happens. Pediococcus cerevisiae, which is a lambic culture and
                      > Saccharomyces cerevisiae, brewing yeast, all seem to form a symbiotic
                      > relationship. Many studies have been made on these three
                      > spontaneously cofermenting lots of grain based products.
                      >
                      > I did not know you were adding the corn directly to the boiling water.
                      > I use that method for simple infusion mashing for barley but I can't
                      > get it to work for corn because of its higher gelatinization
                      > temperatures. I thought you might be boiling the water to get rid of
                      > chlorine or chloramine.
                      >
                      > If you dechlorinate the water by letting it air out while you are
                      > allowing your starter to ferment, you can skip the boiling all
                      > together. Just put it in an open container and put a cloth over it to
                      > keep the dust out. I have the luxury of catching rain water, which
                      > comes complete with a lot of dissolved CO2. This stuff kick starts a
                      > fermentation as if it were magic or something.
                      >
                      > If you want something really interesting to study, Maybe you should
                      > check out making hominy or nixtamal (wiki Nixtamalization), and
                      > mashing the converted corn. I've done this with some amazing
                      > efficiency results. The alkaline processing really releases the starch
                      > and converts the protein into a much easier to process form. Just a
                      > thought.
                      >
                    • pint_o_shine
                      ... any ... I usually can get Calcium Oxide in the USA in the Mexican food section. It is with seasonings and is called CAL. It is actually the hydrated form
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 7, 2007
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                        >
                        > Any ideas where I would start looking for some food grade CaO (or
                        any
                        > grade for that matter)?
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > knarl.


                        I usually can get Calcium Oxide in the USA in the Mexican food
                        section. It is with seasonings and is called CAL. It is actually the
                        hydrated form so is actually slaked lime. I have used the
                        agricultural form with no difficulties. If you are adventurous you
                        can make your own by heating the bejeezus out of some limestone or
                        any other source of calcium carbonate.

                        I pointed you to the process outlined by wiki because it is the
                        traditional process. The modern process is in making hominy with
                        sodium hydroxide, caustic soda, lye. I use about 40 grams in 12
                        liters to do a small batch. I use the brand Red Devil because it is
                        pure lye. I heat mine to boiling, add whole corn bring back to a
                        boil, turn off heat and then let it set overnight. The next day the
                        pericarp and germ will fall off. I usually give it a good rinse and
                        most of it comes off with the rinsing. The soft starchy part is
                        easily mashed and if you get most of the pericarp and germ off in the
                        rinsing you get a pretty clear, non-viscous liquid that ferments real
                        good. The germ will usuall filter out really easy if you miss it.
                        This process sounds complicated but it yeilds much more convertable
                        starch.

                        To answer the next question, yes I continue to use the acid from
                        soured corn to acidify the batch before conversion because the lye
                        can leave it slightly alkaline. Remember the enzymes prefer acidic
                        environments. The only reason I use prefermented corn for the acid
                        source is that it keeps it "pure corn" and I don't have to buy acid
                        because nature provides it for free.

                        If you really want to go old school you can even make potash from
                        hardwood ashes and make the hominy that way.
                        If you mix potash and hydrated lime you get potassium hydroxide
                        (caustic potash) and get calcium carbonate back, which is how the old
                        timers did it. It goes round and round and never stops.

                        The possibilities never end when you've got wood, rock, corn and
                        water available.
                      • knarl
                        great info pint! I think I ll go the sodium hydroxide method, I have it handy. About the corn LAB starter: Does it have to be ground corn, or will cracked corn
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 8, 2007
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                          great info pint! I think I'll go the sodium hydroxide method, I have it handy.

                          About the corn LAB starter: Does it have to be ground corn, or will cracked corn do? I don't have a mill. I could buy a small amount of corn meal, but it's probably been pasturised.

                          From your description about washing the corn after the NaOH treatment, I take it that cracked corn can't be used for it, because it wouldn't be able to be washed, and I'd have to neutralise the base in some way? I assume the alkalinity of the mix would be too much for the LAB and kill it if I added it without washing, and it probably wouldn't produce enough acid to neutralise the NaOH and acidify the mash

                          I might have to find myself a mill and a source of whole corn instead of cracked if I want to try this method. But I'm keen to do so, it seems like a great way to do 100% corn whiskey.

                          I'm off to check how the enzymes have done on my current batch now!

                          Cheers,
                          knarl.

                          On 6/8/07, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > Any ideas where I would start looking for some food grade CaO (or
                          any
                          > grade for that matter)?
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > knarl.

                          I usually can get Calcium Oxide in the USA in the Mexican food
                          section. It is with seasonings and is called CAL. It is actually the
                          hydrated form so is actually slaked lime. I have used the
                          agricultural form with no difficulties. If you are adventurous you
                          can make your own by heating the bejeezus out of some limestone or
                          any other source of calcium carbonate.

                          I pointed you to the process outlined by wiki because it is the
                          traditional process. The modern process is in making hominy with
                          sodium hydroxide, caustic soda, lye. I use about 40 grams in 12
                          liters to do a small batch. I use the brand Red Devil because it is
                          pure lye. I heat mine to boiling, add whole corn bring back to a
                          boil, turn off heat and then let it set overnight. The next day the
                          pericarp and germ will fall off. I usually give it a good rinse and
                          most of it comes off with the rinsing. The soft starchy part is
                          easily mashed and if you get most of the pericarp and germ off in the
                          rinsing you get a pretty clear, non-viscous liquid that ferments real
                          good. The germ will usuall filter out really easy if you miss it.
                          This process sounds complicated but it yeilds much more convertable
                          starch.

                          To answer the next question, yes I continue to use the acid from
                          soured corn to acidify the batch before conversion because the lye
                          can leave it slightly alkaline. Remember the enzymes prefer acidic
                          environments. The only reason I use prefermented corn for the acid
                          source is that it keeps it "pure corn" and I don't have to buy acid
                          because nature provides it for free.

                          If you really want to go old school you can even make potash from
                          hardwood ashes and make the hominy that way.
                          If you mix potash and hydrated lime you get potassium hydroxide
                          (caustic potash) and get calcium carbonate back, which is how the old
                          timers did it. It goes round and round and never stops.

                          The possibilities never end when you've got wood, rock, corn and
                          water available.


                        • Trid
                          I had the privilege of taking a tour of the Clear Creek Distillery in Portland, Oregon two weeks ago. WOW! I say this mostly because of the amazing
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 8, 2007
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                            I had the privilege of taking a tour of the Clear Creek Distillery in Portland,
                            Oregon two weeks ago. WOW! I say this mostly because of the amazing
                            hospitality and friendliness. Obviously the first question I had was "May I
                            take photos?" The answer was yes without any hesitation. The tour guide (Tom,
                            I *think* was his name...I always trip up on the simple ones) was "the new guy"
                            who was substituting for the regular guide. He had about a year and a half
                            under his belt. The office area was about the only place separate from the
                            rest of the distillery. The rest was all one common area...fermenters along
                            the back, stills in the middle, shelves and such up front, bottling area to one
                            side...pretty simple. The fermenters were big stainless tanks...nothing
                            unique. They essentially ground whole pears via the pump they used to get the
                            pulp into the fermenters and the rest is pretty routine.
                            They have 4 Holstein Eau de vie stills and he gave a quick rundown on how they
                            worked. I bit my tongue when he described how the bubble cap plates worked
                            (not to mention that I have a little bit of a problem with a 6 plate column
                            being called a "pot" still...again, kept my mouth shut). Snapped pictures all
                            along the way. The only other separated room is on the farthest side from the
                            office. That would be their barrel room. They keep it cool and moist in
                            there. Apparently keeping the temperature low (low 60's (f)) and the humidity
                            high is what they are happy with in terms of how the spirit works with the oak.
                            Almost all their barrels are used.[1] The new ones are of white oak from
                            Oregon.
                            At the end we got to sample their full range of products (yes, *full*) and
                            repeat tastings if you asked. The Douglas Fir Eau de vie appealed to SWMBO, so
                            she got a bottle. They had various grappas and brandies and liqueurs and
                            cordials...we got to taste them ALL...I had to cut myself off because I was
                            driving. We walked out of there "only" spending about $125 or so. Their tour
                            is free, but they definitely don't have to twist anybody's arm to purchase
                            "souvenirs."
                            They also have a signature single malt whisky, but is sells faster than they
                            can make it.

                            At the end of the tour, he asked if there were any questions. I said "are you
                            hiring?"

                            Here are my photos: [2]
                            http://triddlywinks.multiply.com/photos/album/9

                            ...and their website.
                            http://www.clearcreekdistillery.com/index.php

                            Trid
                            -longing to go back...I *absolutely* recommend this tour if you ever find
                            yourself in Portland!!!

                            [1] What was funny was that Tom was hired originally because he's a carpenter
                            by trade...his "in" was that he could recondition their barrels. He's
                            essentially the in-house cooper...in addition to all the other "new guy" type
                            duties :)
                            [2] I'll add captions here and there over time...I *just* uploaded the whole
                            bunch so I wouldn't forget. Please feel free to ask me anything about them.
                          • bbornais
                            Thanks for posting Trid. Bryan
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 9, 2007
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                              Thanks for posting Trid.

                              Bryan
                            • Trid
                              During my trip to Portland, of the four distilleries that I d earmarked for tours, I only made it to two. Clear Creek (and I was corrected by a friend who was
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 11, 2007
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                                During my trip to Portland, of the four distilleries that I'd earmarked for
                                tours, I only made it to two. Clear Creek (and I was corrected by a friend who
                                was with me at the tour...the guide's name is Joe, not Tom) and Rogue. The
                                rogue distillery was small and cozy, situated above their brew-pub. What
                                struck me as significant was the size of their still. I wouldn't be surprised
                                if some of us might have a rig that size tucked away in a barn somewhere ;)
                                Rather than test my own faulty recollection (considering I couldn't even
                                remember "Joe"), I'll "give" you the tour myself:
                                (it's the in-person tour almost verbatim...minus the tasting at the end)
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPveDTTs14o

                                The person in the video was our tour guide. As the tasting was wrapping up, I
                                expressed an interest in possibly embarking on a similar venture myself. He
                                had just begun sharing some sage wisdom when I got a phone call that I was
                                almost late for another engagement...I apologized, shook his hand and pretty
                                much turned into a pumpkin on the spot. I wish I could have gone back and
                                spent more time with him, talking, but the tours only occur on weekdays, it was
                                Friday, and I had to leave Monday afternoon. At least I already have an agenda
                                should I return. I would have liked to have at least purchased a bottle of
                                their spruce gin...while I'm sure I can find it where I am locally, it's the
                                gesture at the end of the tour that was as important as the (fairly) unique
                                find.

                                Sorry, no photos of my own to provide...I dropped the ball on that one.

                                Trid
                                -next trip: Bermuda...alas, no distilleries to tour :(
                              • welska
                                I ve run some fermentations with LAB added with some interesting(good) results....seems most distilleries have developed their own set of LAB. Growing your
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 16, 2007
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                                  I've run some fermentations with LAB added with some interesting(good)
                                  results....seems most distilleries have developed their own set of
                                  LAB. Growing your own slants might be something to consider.

                                  Brian




                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I just did a little reading about lactobacillus on wikipedia, and
                                  > lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in general.
                                  >
                                  > I also make my own yoghurt and yoghurt cheese. It got me thinking that
                                  > maybe I could give the LAB a headstart of my own by adding some whey
                                  > (acidic liquid strained from coagulated proteins in yoghurt) that
                                  > would be teaming with LAB. Will it give me the same benefits as the
                                  > natural stuff on the corn?
                                  >
                                  > Would the acid produced if I used a lactobacillus starter of whatever
                                  > kind make the pH too low for enzymes and/or ale yeast to work
                                  > properly??
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > knarl.
                                  >
                                  > On 6/6/07, knarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
                                  > > I assume the starter would smell bad for the first few days becasue
                                  > > it's infected with all sorts of junk, and then does the lactobacillus
                                  > > overwhelm everything? Then adding lactobacillus rich starter to the
                                  > > main batch gives it a head start down the lactobacillus path, saving
                                  > > it from other infections?
                                  > >
                                  > > Sounds like a really good plan, but I wish I had a microscope (and
                                  > > knew how to use it) to check that it was actually lactobacillus I was
                                  > > breeding =).
                                  > >
                                  > > So adding the corn to boiling water won't be enough to keep it from
                                  > > becoming infected for a couple of days?
                                  > >
                                  > > Now I have some pondering to do... Thanks Pint! =)
                                  > >
                                  > > Cheers,
                                  > > knarl.
                                  > >
                                  > > On 6/5/07, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                                  > > > Your plan is spot on except for one thing. The initial soaking will
                                  > > > spoil because corn carries with it the proper bacteria to cause
                                  it to
                                  > > > bacterially ferment as soon as you add water. Some of the
                                  bacteria can
                                  > > > be pretty nasty smelling beasts.
                                  > > > This can be used to your advantage though. The initial step
                                  should be
                                  > > > to put one fourth kilo of ground corn in a mason jar along with
                                  enough
                                  > > > water to cover it twice its height. Allow this to ferment for
                                  three to
                                  > > > four days. It will stink really bad on the first and second days. On
                                  > > > the third or fourth day it will start smelling clean. I won't
                                  explain
                                  > > > the lacto-fermentation process here, but I know this works from
                                  > > > experience.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Add this starter, grain and liquid, to your boiled water after it
                                  > > > cools off to create an acidic, bacteria rich, steep liquor. The
                                  > > > bacteria will be mostly lactobacillus which is beneficial in
                                  many ways.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > - The lactic acid will sour up the rest of the corn with beneficial
                                  > > > bacteria to help prevent further bacterial contamination,
                                  > > > - will break apart the proteins holding the starches together
                                  and make
                                  > > > more starch available for conversion,
                                  > > > - adds acidity which aids in the enzyme conversion,
                                  > > > - will coagulate the water soluble proteins, during enzyme
                                  conversion,
                                  > > > to help with separating the germ and the paricarp from the
                                  distillers
                                  > > > beer and also help it to settle clear.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This small short cut to sour mash will save you many hour of
                                  > > > frustration and will prevent a lot of batches from going bad on
                                  > > > initial startup.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > For your second batch, make sure to retain a small amount of the
                                  steep
                                  > > > liquor from your first batch, before conversion, to get the second
                                  > > > batch going.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Gday Guys,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I've formulated a plan to produce a 100% corn whiskey, and I'd
                                  > > > > appreciate any comments on my plan.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I'm a seasoned neutral alc producer from sugar wash (1.6 meter
                                  tall LM
                                  > > > > still), and I do pretty nice light rum (same still). I've even
                                  had a
                                  > > > > crack or two at heavy rum by collecting the rum oil fraction.
                                  Lately I
                                  > > > > just finished an orange brandy using my pot still (short 50mm
                                  column
                                  > > > > with slanted plates and no valve - hence no reflux) and it
                                  turned out
                                  > > > > great, so now I know I can get something good out of my pot
                                  still I'm
                                  > > > > on a mission to produce whiskey.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > At the moment I have a wash going that has malt extract, corn and
                                  > > > > sugar in it. It was a mainly a practice at mashing some corn (1kg)
                                  > > > > using enzymes (alpha and beta amylase) so that I'm confident
                                  to do a
                                  > > > > bigger batch. It went fine, so here's my plan for 100% corn
                                  whiskey:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Day 1:
                                  > > > > - Bring 35L of water to the boil in my 50L SS keg with the top
                                  cut off.
                                  > > > > - Add 10kg of cracked corn from the feed store
                                  > > > > - cover and let it sit for a day or two to soften (it's very
                                  dry corn
                                  > > > > - even my pressure cooker had a hard time of cooking the small
                                  batch)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Day 3:
                                  > > > > - Heat it until it turns to mush (stirring or using my keg in keg
                                  > > > double boiler)
                                  > > > > - Add enzymes at appropriate temperatures (60 mins to liquefy)
                                  > > > > - Leave overnight for further conversion.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Day 4:
                                  > > > > - Add ale yeast and a fish tank heater set to 25C
                                  > > > > - Cover with cloth
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Stir daily (or at least once or twice)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Day 10 (or when it's done fermenting):
                                  > > > > - Strain the liquid from the grain into another 50L SS keg
                                  with the
                                  > > > top cut off
                                  > > > > - Sparge with enough water to almost fill the keg
                                  > > > > - Cover and stand to let yeast settle out
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Day 15:
                                  > > > > - Rack into still and save yeast to use in the next batch
                                  > > > > - Strip off about 6L keeping all
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > REPEAT 4 more times for a projected total of 30L of low wines
                                  @ 40% abv.
                                  > > > > Spirit run should give me enough hearts for 20L of drinking
                                  strength
                                  > > > > (40%) after it's aged plus feints.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I assumed corn is 50% starch and I can convert 75% of it to
                                  > > > > fermentable - is that reasonable?
                                  > > > > Does it sound like a good plan? Is there something major I'm
                                  > > > > overlooking? Does anyone have experience with 100% corn
                                  whiskey? Is it
                                  > > > > going to be hard to sparge? Will my plan to reuse yeast work?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Thanks to anyone who read this far!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Cheers,
                                  > > > > knarl.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • knarl
                                  Brian, What source did you use for the LAB? Further description of your interesting(good) results would be much appreciated. Cheers, knarl.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 16, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Brian,

                                    What source did you use for the LAB? Further description of your "interesting(good)" results would be much appreciated.

                                    Cheers,
                                    knarl.

                                    On 6/17/07, welska <welska@...> wrote:

                                    I've run some fermentations with LAB added with some interesting(good)
                                    results....seems most distilleries have developed their own set of
                                    LAB. Growing your own slants might be something to consider.

                                    Brian

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I just did a little reading about lactobacillus on wikipedia, and
                                    > lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in general.
                                    >
                                    > I also make my own yoghurt and yoghurt cheese. It got me thinking that
                                    > maybe I could give the LAB a headstart of my own by adding some whey
                                    > (acidic liquid strained from coagulated proteins in yoghurt) that
                                    > would be teaming with LAB. Will it give me the same benefits as the
                                    > natural stuff on the corn?
                                    >
                                    > Would the acid produced if I used a lactobacillus starter of whatever
                                    > kind make the pH too low for enzymes and/or ale yeast to work
                                    > properly??
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > knarl.
                                    >
                                    > On 6/6/07, knarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
                                    > > I assume the starter would smell bad for the first few days becasue
                                    > > it's infected with all sorts of junk, and then does the lactobacillus
                                    > > overwhelm everything? Then adding lactobacillus rich starter to the
                                    > > main batch gives it a head start down the lactobacillus path, saving
                                    > > it from other infections?
                                    > >
                                    > > Sounds like a really good plan, but I wish I had a microscope (and
                                    > > knew how to use it) to check that it was actually lactobacillus I was
                                    > > breeding =).
                                    > >
                                    > > So adding the corn to boiling water won't be enough to keep it from
                                    > > becoming infected for a couple of days?
                                    > >
                                    > > Now I have some pondering to do... Thanks Pint! =)
                                    > >
                                    > > Cheers,
                                    > > knarl.
                                    > >

                                    > > On 6/5/07, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                                    > > > Your plan is spot on except for one thing. The initial soaking will
                                    > > > spoil because corn carries with it the proper bacteria to cause
                                    it to
                                    > > > bacterially ferment as soon as you add water. Some of the
                                    bacteria can
                                    > > > be pretty nasty smelling beasts.
                                    > > > This can be used to your advantage though. The initial step
                                    should be
                                    > > > to put one fourth kilo of ground corn in a mason jar along with
                                    enough
                                    > > > water to cover it twice its height. Allow this to ferment for
                                    three to
                                    > > > four days. It will stink really bad on the first and second days. On
                                    > > > the third or fourth day it will start smelling clean. I won't
                                    explain
                                    > > > the lacto-fermentation process here, but I know this works from
                                    > > > experience.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Add this starter, grain and liquid, to your boiled water after it
                                    > > > cools off to create an acidic, bacteria rich, steep liquor. The
                                    > > > bacteria will be mostly lactobacillus which is beneficial in
                                    many ways.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > - The lactic acid will sour up the rest of the corn with beneficial
                                    > > > bacteria to help prevent further bacterial contamination,
                                    > > > - will break apart the proteins holding the starches together
                                    and make
                                    > > > more starch available for conversion,
                                    > > > - adds acidity which aids in the enzyme conversion,
                                    > > > - will coagulate the water soluble proteins, during enzyme
                                    conversion,
                                    > > > to help with separating the germ and the paricarp from the
                                    distillers
                                    > > > beer and also help it to settle clear.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This small short cut to sour mash will save you many hour of
                                    > > > frustration and will prevent a lot of batches from going bad on
                                    > > > initial startup.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > For your second batch, make sure to retain a small amount of the
                                    steep
                                    > > > liquor from your first batch, before conversion, to get the second
                                    > > > batch going.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Gday Guys,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I've formulated a plan to produce a 100% corn whiskey, and I'd
                                    > > > > appreciate any comments on my plan.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I'm a seasoned neutral alc producer from sugar wash (1.6 meter
                                    tall LM
                                    > > > > still), and I do pretty nice light rum (same still). I've even
                                    had a
                                    > > > > crack or two at heavy rum by collecting the rum oil fraction.
                                    Lately I
                                    > > > > just finished an orange brandy using my pot still (short 50mm
                                    column
                                    > > > > with slanted plates and no valve - hence no reflux) and it
                                    turned out
                                    > > > > great, so now I know I can get something good out of my pot
                                    still I'm
                                    > > > > on a mission to produce whiskey.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > At the moment I have a wash going that has malt extract, corn and
                                    > > > > sugar in it. It was a mainly a practice at mashing some corn (1kg)
                                    > > > > using enzymes (alpha and beta amylase) so that I'm confident
                                    to do a
                                    > > > > bigger batch. It went fine, so here's my plan for 100% corn
                                    whiskey:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Day 1:
                                    > > > > - Bring 35L of water to the boil in my 50L SS keg with the top
                                    cut off.
                                    > > > > - Add 10kg of cracked corn from the feed store
                                    > > > > - cover and let it sit for a day or two to soften (it's very
                                    dry corn
                                    > > > > - even my pressure cooker had a hard time of cooking the small
                                    batch)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Day 3:
                                    > > > > - Heat it until it turns to mush (stirring or using my keg in keg
                                    > > > double boiler)
                                    > > > > - Add enzymes at appropriate temperatures (60 mins to liquefy)
                                    > > > > - Leave overnight for further conversion.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Day 4:
                                    > > > > - Add ale yeast and a fish tank heater set to 25C
                                    > > > > - Cover with cloth
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Stir daily (or at least once or twice)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Day 10 (or when it's done fermenting):
                                    > > > > - Strain the liquid from the grain into another 50L SS keg
                                    with the
                                    > > > top cut off
                                    > > > > - Sparge with enough water to almost fill the keg
                                    > > > > - Cover and stand to let yeast settle out
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Day 15:
                                    > > > > - Rack into still and save yeast to use in the next batch
                                    > > > > - Strip off about 6L keeping all
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > REPEAT 4 more times for a projected total of 30L of low wines
                                    @ 40% abv.
                                    > > > > Spirit run should give me enough hearts for 20L of drinking
                                    strength
                                    > > > > (40%) after it's aged plus feints.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I assumed corn is 50% starch and I can convert 75% of it to
                                    > > > > fermentable - is that reasonable?
                                    > > > > Does it sound like a good plan? Is there something major I'm
                                    > > > > overlooking? Does anyone have experience with 100% corn
                                    whiskey? Is it
                                    > > > > going to be hard to sparge? Will my plan to reuse yeast work?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Thanks to anyone who read this far!
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Cheers,
                                    > > > > knarl.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >


                                  • welska
                                    I have used (so far) LALVIN MBR ELIOS 1 which was designed for MLF. The complexity in the headspace of the fermentation was more one dimensional than the
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 17, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I have used (so far) LALVIN MBR ELIOS 1 which was designed for MLF.
                                      The complexity in the headspace of the fermentation was more one
                                      dimensional than the non-innoculated fermenter. The non-innocultated
                                      tank had a much more complex headspace notes with some notes that I
                                      don't think would provide the precursors I am looking for. Until the
                                      aging cycle is finished, I won't really know much more....looking at
                                      EM's food grade LAB combinations and have approached them to make up
                                      my own set of LAB selects.

                                      Have you used LAB in this way?

                                      Brian


                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, knarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Brian,
                                      >
                                      > What source did you use for the LAB? Further description of your
                                      > "interesting(good)" results would be much appreciated.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      > knarl.
                                      >
                                      > On 6/17/07, welska <welska@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I've run some fermentations with LAB added with some
                                      interesting(good)
                                      > > results....seems most distilleries have developed their own set of
                                      > > LAB. Growing your own slants might be something to consider.
                                      > >
                                      > > Brian
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com <Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      knarl
                                      > > <dearknarl@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I just did a little reading about lactobacillus on wikipedia, and
                                      > > > lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in general.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I also make my own yoghurt and yoghurt cheese. It got me
                                      thinking that
                                      > > > maybe I could give the LAB a headstart of my own by adding some whey
                                      > > > (acidic liquid strained from coagulated proteins in yoghurt) that
                                      > > > would be teaming with LAB. Will it give me the same benefits as the
                                      > > > natural stuff on the corn?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Would the acid produced if I used a lactobacillus starter of
                                      whatever
                                      > > > kind make the pH too low for enzymes and/or ale yeast to work
                                      > > > properly??
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Cheers,
                                      > > > knarl.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > On 6/6/07, knarl <dearknarl@> wrote:
                                      > > > > I assume the starter would smell bad for the first few days
                                      becasue
                                      > > > > it's infected with all sorts of junk, and then does the
                                      lactobacillus
                                      > > > > overwhelm everything? Then adding lactobacillus rich starter
                                      to the
                                      > > > > main batch gives it a head start down the lactobacillus path,
                                      saving
                                      > > > > it from other infections?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Sounds like a really good plan, but I wish I had a microscope (and
                                      > > > > knew how to use it) to check that it was actually
                                      lactobacillus I was
                                      > > > > breeding =).
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > So adding the corn to boiling water won't be enough to keep it
                                      from
                                      > > > > becoming infected for a couple of days?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Now I have some pondering to do... Thanks Pint! =)
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Cheers,
                                      > > > > knarl.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > On 6/5/07, pint_o_shine <pintoshine@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > Your plan is spot on except for one thing. The initial
                                      soaking will
                                      > > > > > spoil because corn carries with it the proper bacteria to cause
                                      > > it to
                                      > > > > > bacterially ferment as soon as you add water. Some of the
                                      > > bacteria can
                                      > > > > > be pretty nasty smelling beasts.
                                      > > > > > This can be used to your advantage though. The initial step
                                      > > should be
                                      > > > > > to put one fourth kilo of ground corn in a mason jar along with
                                      > > enough
                                      > > > > > water to cover it twice its height. Allow this to ferment for
                                      > > three to
                                      > > > > > four days. It will stink really bad on the first and second
                                      days. On
                                      > > > > > the third or fourth day it will start smelling clean. I won't
                                      > > explain
                                      > > > > > the lacto-fermentation process here, but I know this works from
                                      > > > > > experience.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Add this starter, grain and liquid, to your boiled water
                                      after it
                                      > > > > > cools off to create an acidic, bacteria rich, steep liquor. The
                                      > > > > > bacteria will be mostly lactobacillus which is beneficial in
                                      > > many ways.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > - The lactic acid will sour up the rest of the corn with
                                      beneficial
                                      > > > > > bacteria to help prevent further bacterial contamination,
                                      > > > > > - will break apart the proteins holding the starches together
                                      > > and make
                                      > > > > > more starch available for conversion,
                                      > > > > > - adds acidity which aids in the enzyme conversion,
                                      > > > > > - will coagulate the water soluble proteins, during enzyme
                                      > > conversion,
                                      > > > > > to help with separating the germ and the paricarp from the
                                      > > distillers
                                      > > > > > beer and also help it to settle clear.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > This small short cut to sour mash will save you many hour of
                                      > > > > > frustration and will prevent a lot of batches from going bad on
                                      > > > > > initial startup.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > For your second batch, make sure to retain a small amount of the
                                      > > steep
                                      > > > > > liquor from your first batch, before conversion, to get the
                                      second
                                      > > > > > batch going.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      <Distillers%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > > knarl <dearknarl@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Gday Guys,
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I've formulated a plan to produce a 100% corn whiskey, and I'd
                                      > > > > > > appreciate any comments on my plan.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I'm a seasoned neutral alc producer from sugar wash (1.6 meter
                                      > > tall LM
                                      > > > > > > still), and I do pretty nice light rum (same still). I've even
                                      > > had a
                                      > > > > > > crack or two at heavy rum by collecting the rum oil fraction.
                                      > > Lately I
                                      > > > > > > just finished an orange brandy using my pot still (short 50mm
                                      > > column
                                      > > > > > > with slanted plates and no valve - hence no reflux) and it
                                      > > turned out
                                      > > > > > > great, so now I know I can get something good out of my pot
                                      > > still I'm
                                      > > > > > > on a mission to produce whiskey.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > At the moment I have a wash going that has malt extract,
                                      corn and
                                      > > > > > > sugar in it. It was a mainly a practice at mashing some
                                      corn (1kg)
                                      > > > > > > using enzymes (alpha and beta amylase) so that I'm confident
                                      > > to do a
                                      > > > > > > bigger batch. It went fine, so here's my plan for 100% corn
                                      > > whiskey:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Day 1:
                                      > > > > > > - Bring 35L of water to the boil in my 50L SS keg with the top
                                      > > cut off.
                                      > > > > > > - Add 10kg of cracked corn from the feed store
                                      > > > > > > - cover and let it sit for a day or two to soften (it's very
                                      > > dry corn
                                      > > > > > > - even my pressure cooker had a hard time of cooking the small
                                      > > batch)
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Day 3:
                                      > > > > > > - Heat it until it turns to mush (stirring or using my keg
                                      in keg
                                      > > > > > double boiler)
                                      > > > > > > - Add enzymes at appropriate temperatures (60 mins to liquefy)
                                      > > > > > > - Leave overnight for further conversion.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Day 4:
                                      > > > > > > - Add ale yeast and a fish tank heater set to 25C
                                      > > > > > > - Cover with cloth
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Stir daily (or at least once or twice)
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Day 10 (or when it's done fermenting):
                                      > > > > > > - Strain the liquid from the grain into another 50L SS keg
                                      > > with the
                                      > > > > > top cut off
                                      > > > > > > - Sparge with enough water to almost fill the keg
                                      > > > > > > - Cover and stand to let yeast settle out
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Day 15:
                                      > > > > > > - Rack into still and save yeast to use in the next batch
                                      > > > > > > - Strip off about 6L keeping all
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > REPEAT 4 more times for a projected total of 30L of low wines
                                      > > @ 40% abv.
                                      > > > > > > Spirit run should give me enough hearts for 20L of drinking
                                      > > strength
                                      > > > > > > (40%) after it's aged plus feints.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I assumed corn is 50% starch and I can convert 75% of it to
                                      > > > > > > fermentable - is that reasonable?
                                      > > > > > > Does it sound like a good plan? Is there something major I'm
                                      > > > > > > overlooking? Does anyone have experience with 100% corn
                                      > > whiskey? Is it
                                      > > > > > > going to be hard to sparge? Will my plan to reuse yeast work?
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Thanks to anyone who read this far!
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Cheers,
                                      > > > > > > knarl.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
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