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Giving up on oak barrels...

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  • toddk63
    I m giving up on aging in oak barrels. I have too much evaporation loss and my control experiment of a jar with wood chips was actually better tasting than
    Message 1 of 24 , May 14, 2007
      I'm giving up on aging in oak barrels. I have too
      much evaporation loss and my control experiment of a
      jar with wood chips was actually better tasting than
      the barrel after 3 months. This is with a 5 liter and a 3 liter barrel.

      Todd K.
    • Trid
      I posted a few weeks ago regarding doing rum somewhat cloning Harry s tried and true method. I ve actually gotten caught up enough in my own world that I ve
      Message 2 of 24 , May 14, 2007
        I posted a few weeks ago regarding doing rum somewhat cloning Harry's tried and
        true method. I've actually gotten caught up enough in my own world that I've
        sort of forgotten what that was...sort of. The general principle (as I
        interpret it) is that one strips the wash, combines the low wines with dunder
        and feints for the spirit run, and then has a right nifty, flavorful rum. The
        grand mystery, of course, are the specifics...recipe of the wash, proportions
        of low wines/feints/dunder, where to make the cuts in the final spirit, etc.

        Here's my story:

        Fermentation -
        Round 1 - 4 gallons of water, 1 gallon molasses, and 2 baby food (Gerber) jars
        of yeast. It looks like it's very light molasses, so I'd suspect a pretty high
        sugar content and very low solids. It fermented down to 1.000 (I was
        surprised). o.g. 1.085 (ish)
        Round 2 was 9 lbs of white cane sugar, 1 1/2 gallons dunder, and cold water to
        fill, dumped on the sludge of the previous batch. o.g. 1.090
        Round 3 was 5 lbs sugar and 1/2 gallon molasses, and 1 (maybe 1 1/2) gallon
        dunder and cold water to fill...again, dumped on the sludge of the previous
        ferment. I went over 5 gallons, so I had about 1 1/3 gallons of sugar/molasses
        mix set aside. o.g. 1.085
        So far, all three have fermented out to ~1.000
        Round 4 (fermenting presently) 1/2 gallon molasses, the extra mix from previous
        batch, and 4 lbs sugar and cold water (I forgot to add dunder this round) o.g.
        1.085

        All of this has been done with the same yeast. I've added none through the
        whole process. Each batch I tossed in some (1/2 gal, maybe) diluted wash with
        the sediment and shook it up well as a starter/yeast wakeup. This was done
        about an hour or two before adding the remaining wash. The fermentation kicked
        up and was frothy in a couple of hours every time.
        Incidentally, I'm just using baking yeast for this...red star dried baking
        yeast. It seems to be happy.

        Part of my experiment is to determine what taste each batch achieves. So far,
        the results still seem a little on the light side. But then, I think I'm using
        a really light molasses as compared to most everybody else's. I get it at a
        restaurant supply store, so I think it's especially light...definitely not
        blackstrap let alone livestock grade. The general rule of thumb in all that we
        do fall back to "According to taste." That can be such a fuzzy
        description...you really do need to just experiment to find out not only what
        your taste is, but also whether or not your end result suits that...nasty
        little catch-22 sometimes :)

        Distillation -
        As far as distilling the wash, I strip the wash in one run with full heat on
        until the vapor temp gets to 96C. I set aside the dunder (spent wash) and then
        do a spirit run with the low wines from the stripping run (~1 gallon), the
        feints (heads and tails, ~ 3/4 gallon) of the previous spirit run, and a gallon
        of dunder. I run this at a lower heat so the collection rate is slower.
        I collect to about 80C and set aside as heads, then switch collection vessels
        every 1C rise in vapor temp. At around 92C (and 12 jars later) I crank up the
        heat and collect the rest as tails. Then, from the jars, I sniff and taste,
        and cut the hearts from them...generally between 83 and 89/90, but again, where
        taste and smell seems right. The remaining jars get tossed in with heads and
        tails (feints) into one jug for next time.

        Aging -
        I have just over a gallon of final product (from 1st and 3rd batches...forgot
        to do a spirit run on the 2nd...maybe in a day or two). After the last
        remaining spirit run is finished and all three are combined, I'll split them
        up. I'll keep one part as "control" and not do anything to it. I'll take the
        remaining and split it up and try different oaks/spices to see how they turn
        out over time.

        Completely unrelated -
        I'm taking a vacation next week. I'll be visiting Portland, Oregon. I'm
        planning on touring some microdistilleries that are in Portland:
        http://www.clearcreekdistillery.com/index.php
        http://www.roguespirits.com/micro.htm
        http://www.newdealdistillery.com/home.html
        Hopefully I'll pick up some new wisdom while I'm there :)

        I'm going to let round 4 ferment until I get back, so it will be fermenting for
        nearly 3 weeks. Should be nice and clear! After that batch, I'm going to get
        some feed grade molasses (65 lbs for ~$22 USD...essentially 5 gallons). I did
        a huge batch (30 gallon wash) at a friend's house nearly a year ago using a
        full bucket of this. We actually ran 2 washes of that size (the second wash
        was about 50/50 water/dunder and 20 lbs cane sugar) and came up with around 6
        or 6 1/2 gallons of final product...much stronger flavor than what I'm doing
        right now. His GF bought him a 5 gal French oak barrel for X-mas, so it's
        aging presently. We've topped it off twice now (pesky angels) with about a
        half gallon. The hard part will definitely be waiting 5-10 years :)

        Trid
        -"Why's all the rum gone?" Au contraire...it's sooooo far from gone :)
      • Robert Hubble
        Trid, Good to see you ll be in Portland, the land of my nativity, and an enterprising town in terms of microbrewing and distilling. Do yourself a favor, and
        Message 3 of 24 , May 14, 2007
          Trid,

          Good to see you'll be in Portland, the land of my nativity, and an
          enterprising town in terms of microbrewing and distilling.

          Do yourself a favor, and visit a few of the McMenamin's great brewpubs. In
          fairness, only their specialty brews have greatness, but the brothers
          McMenamin have discovered that the key to historical preservation is beer,
          so you've gotta love 'em. One of their preservation sites is Edgefield, the
          old Multnomah County poor farm. In that complex, along with an inn and a few
          pubs, is a new distillery, or so I'm told.

          At last count, there was a very nice still, which alas, was not hooked up
          yet, and booze was being mixed from barrels of neutral EtOH (all this is
          hearsay, understand). If you see that, tell them to get the hell on the
          stick, and do it right.

          Oh, yeah, if you go to any McMenamin's, pick up the newspaper, so you can
          truly understand what a great act they are. No, I DON'T own stock, but I
          LOVE these guys (again, platonically, just so you understand).


          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller





          >From: Trid <triddlywinks@...>
          >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [Distillers] The continuing saga of rum
          >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 12:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
          >
          -----snip----->
          >Completely unrelated -
          >I'm taking a vacation next week. I'll be visiting Portland, Oregon. I'm
          >planning on touring some microdistilleries that are in Portland:
          >http://www.clearcreekdistillery.com/index.php
          >http://www.roguespirits.com/micro.htm
          >http://www.newdealdistillery.com/home.html
          >Hopefully I'll pick up some new wisdom while I'm there :)
          >
          >I'm going to let round 4 ferment until I get back, so it will be fermenting
          >for
          >nearly 3 weeks. Should be nice and clear! After that batch, I'm going to
          >get
          >some feed grade molasses (65 lbs for ~$22 USD...essentially 5 gallons). I
          >did
          >a huge batch (30 gallon wash) at a friend's house nearly a year ago using a
          >full bucket of this. We actually ran 2 washes of that size (the second
          >wash
          >was about 50/50 water/dunder and 20 lbs cane sugar) and came up with around
          >6
          >or 6 1/2 gallons of final product...much stronger flavor than what I'm
          >doing
          >right now. His GF bought him a 5 gal French oak barrel for X-mas, so it's
          >aging presently. We've topped it off twice now (pesky angels) with about a
          >half gallon. The hard part will definitely be waiting 5-10 years :)
          >
          >Trid
          >-"Why's all the rum gone?" Au contraire...it's sooooo far from gone :)

          _________________________________________________________________
          PC Magazine�s 2007 editors� choice for best Web mail�award-winning Windows
          Live Hotmail.
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        • Trid
          ... Here s what I found: http://www.mcmenamins.com/index.php?loc=76&category=Distillery%20Homepage ... You know I will :) According to the website, the still s
          Message 4 of 24 , May 14, 2007
            --- Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

            > Trid,
            >
            > Good to see you'll be in Portland, the land of my nativity, and an
            > enterprising town in terms of microbrewing and distilling.
            >
            > Do yourself a favor, and visit a few of the McMenamin's great brewpubs. In
            > fairness, only their specialty brews have greatness, but the brothers
            > McMenamin have discovered that the key to historical preservation is beer,
            > so you've gotta love 'em. One of their preservation sites is Edgefield, the
            > old Multnomah County poor farm. In that complex, along with an inn and a few
            > pubs, is a new distillery, or so I'm told.

            Here's what I found:
            http://www.mcmenamins.com/index.php?loc=76&category=Distillery%20Homepage

            > At last count, there was a very nice still, which alas, was not hooked up
            > yet, and booze was being mixed from barrels of neutral EtOH (all this is
            > hearsay, understand). If you see that, tell them to get the hell on the
            > stick, and do it right.

            You know I will :)

            According to the website, the still's been in operation since 1997 and the base
            stock is their ale (I *presume* unhopped) and their chardonnay...so it says.

            I knew the name sounded familiar...I've seen their site before.

            Ironically, the party/event that I'm going to Portland for (over Memorial Day
            weekend) is being held at the Crystal Ballroom in Edgefield...or at least
            Saturday and Sunday nights' festivities.

            > Oh, yeah, if you go to any McMenamin's, pick up the newspaper, so you can
            > truly understand what a great act they are. No, I DON'T own stock, but I
            > LOVE these guys (again, platonically, just so you understand).

            Uh huh...
            *snicker*

            Trid
            -feelin' da love
          • kirtgk
            would you like to get rid of those barrels??? im in michigan. if so what do you need from them?? kirtgk
            Message 5 of 24 , May 14, 2007
              would you like to get rid of those barrels???
              im in michigan. if so what do you need from them??


              kirtgk



              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "toddk63" <toddk63@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm giving up on aging in oak barrels. I have too
              > much evaporation loss and my control experiment of a
              > jar with wood chips was actually better tasting than
              > the barrel after 3 months. This is with a 5 liter and a 3 liter barrel.
              >
              > Todd K.
              >
            • Robert Hubble
              Trid, Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller ... Unless they ve either changed some names OR some locations, these are both McMenamin s facilities, but one (Crystal
              Message 6 of 24 , May 14, 2007
                Trid,



                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller





                >From: Trid <triddlywinks@...>
                >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: RE: [Distillers] The continuing saga of rum
                >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 14:35:38 -0700 (PDT)
                >
                >--- Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Trid,
                > >
                > > Good to see you'll be in Portland, the land of my nativity, and an
                > > enterprising town in terms of microbrewing and distilling.
                > >
                > > Do yourself a favor, and visit a few of the McMenamin's great brewpubs.
                >In
                > > fairness, only their specialty brews have greatness, but the brothers
                > > McMenamin have discovered that the key to historical preservation is
                >beer,
                > > so you've gotta love 'em. One of their preservation sites is Edgefield,
                >the
                > > old Multnomah County poor farm. In that complex, along with an inn and a
                >few
                > > pubs, is a new distillery, or so I'm told.
                >
                >Here's what I found:
                >http://www.mcmenamins.com/index.php?loc=76&category=Distillery%20Homepage
                >
                > > At last count, there was a very nice still, which alas, was not hooked
                >up
                > > yet, and booze was being mixed from barrels of neutral EtOH (all this is
                > > hearsay, understand). If you see that, tell them to get the hell on the
                > > stick, and do it right.
                >
                >You know I will :)
                >
                >According to the website, the still's been in operation since 1997 and the
                >base
                >stock is their ale (I *presume* unhopped) and their chardonnay...so it
                >says.
                >
                >I knew the name sounded familiar...I've seen their site before.
                >
                >Ironically, the party/event that I'm going to Portland for (over Memorial
                >Day
                >weekend) is being held at the Crystal Ballroom in Edgefield...or at least
                >Saturday and Sunday nights' festivities.

                Unless they've either changed some names OR some locations, these are both
                McMenamin's facilities, but one (Crystal Ballroom) is downtown, and the
                other (Edgefield) is about 10-15 miles away, East of town. Anyway, enjoy
                yourself, look for the beers only brewed at whatever facility you find
                yourself, and keep us posted on the distilling scene in Portland.
                >
                > > Oh, yeah, if you go to any McMenamin's, pick up the newspaper, so you
                >can
                > > truly understand what a great act they are. No, I DON'T own stock, but I
                > > LOVE these guys (again, platonically, just so you understand).
                >
                >Uh huh...
                >*snicker*
                >
                >Trid
                >-feelin' da love

                _________________________________________________________________
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              • emailbenja
                Have been rumming for some time, and looking at barrelling, but as you discovered, the small barrels we use have a massive evaporation rate. This is to do with
                Message 7 of 24 , May 15, 2007
                  Have been rumming for some time, and looking at barrelling, but as you
                  discovered, the small barrels we use have a massive evaporation rate.
                  This is to do with the surface area of the liquid exposed to the wood-
                  the same reason that smaller barrels age the stuff faster than bigger
                  ones.
                  Also explains why the commercial quantities can be put down for such a
                  long time- try putting anything in a small barrel, and apart from most
                  of it disappearing, it will flavour up in just a few months (which is
                  about the time any of our stuff lasts for!!) and will go way over the
                  top if left for too long. Although this flavour effect will reduce
                  with subsequent fillings, the evaporation rate will remain about the
                  same once the wood is soaked.
                  So apart from the retro and kitch factors, stick with the sealed glass
                  bottles, and a handful of oak chips- its also easier to tell what
                  stage your product is at regarding colouration.
                  Having said that, i guess it would be possible to partially coat the
                  barrel with some kind of natural coating (beeswax??) to reduce
                  evaporation, and give a result similar to the commercials (even though
                  our stuff is better than theirs anyway!!)
                  Thats enough on this for now from me, i hand over the mic...
                  Cheers
                  Benja
                • waljaco
                  A special pitch was used for beer barrels - it is still available. wal
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 15, 2007
                    A special pitch was used for beer barrels - it is still available.
                    wal
                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "emailbenja" <emailbenja@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Have been rumming for some time, and looking at barrelling, but as you
                    > discovered, the small barrels we use have a massive evaporation rate.
                    > This is to do with the surface area of the liquid exposed to the wood-
                    > the same reason that smaller barrels age the stuff faster than bigger
                    > ones.
                    > Also explains why the commercial quantities can be put down for such a
                    > long time- try putting anything in a small barrel, and apart from most
                    > of it disappearing, it will flavour up in just a few months (which is
                    > about the time any of our stuff lasts for!!) and will go way over the
                    > top if left for too long. Although this flavour effect will reduce
                    > with subsequent fillings, the evaporation rate will remain about the
                    > same once the wood is soaked.
                    > So apart from the retro and kitch factors, stick with the sealed glass
                    > bottles, and a handful of oak chips- its also easier to tell what
                    > stage your product is at regarding colouration.
                    > Having said that, i guess it would be possible to partially coat the
                    > barrel with some kind of natural coating (beeswax??) to reduce
                    > evaporation, and give a result similar to the commercials (even though
                    > our stuff is better than theirs anyway!!)
                    > Thats enough on this for now from me, i hand over the mic...
                    > Cheers
                    > Benja
                    >
                  • emailbenja
                    OK OK Here are some figures to back up what i said. Thought i had lent the book to a friend, but it was on the shelf! Extracted from Cooperage for Winemakers,
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 15, 2007
                      OK OK
                      Here are some figures to back up what i said.
                      Thought i had lent the book to a friend, but it was on the shelf!

                      Extracted from Cooperage for Winemakers, Schahinger, G & Rankine, B,
                      Ryan Publications, 1992 p94.

                      Surface area expressed as cm2 per litre

                      Surface area Volume
                      195 20l
                      90 200l
                      42 2000l

                      And surface area per unit volume

                      Surface area Volume cm2/l
                      1.8m2 200l 90
                      2.4m2 300l 80
                      3.0m2 500l 60

                      Hope this helps, now back to my Engineering studies, this stuff can
                      take up way too much time way too easily.
                      Cheers
                      Benja
                    • emailbenja
                      Pitch? Well i guess petroleum products are originally formed by a natural process, but buggered if I m going to put it anywhere near my booze, no matter how
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 15, 2007
                        Pitch?
                        Well i guess petroleum products are originally formed by a natural
                        process, but buggered if I'm going to put it anywhere near my booze,
                        no matter how special it is!!
                        Cheers
                        Benja

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > A special pitch was used for beer barrels - it is still available.
                        > wal
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "emailbenja" <emailbenja@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Have been rumming for some time, and looking at barrelling, but as you
                        > > discovered, the small barrels we use have a massive evaporation rate.
                        > > This is to do with the surface area of the liquid exposed to the wood-
                        > > the same reason that smaller barrels age the stuff faster than bigger
                        > > ones.
                        > > Also explains why the commercial quantities can be put down for such a
                        > > long time- try putting anything in a small barrel, and apart from most
                        > > of it disappearing, it will flavour up in just a few months (which is
                        > > about the time any of our stuff lasts for!!) and will go way over the
                        > > top if left for too long. Although this flavour effect will reduce
                        > > with subsequent fillings, the evaporation rate will remain about the
                        > > same once the wood is soaked.
                        > > So apart from the retro and kitch factors, stick with the sealed glass
                        > > bottles, and a handful of oak chips- its also easier to tell what
                        > > stage your product is at regarding colouration.
                        > > Having said that, i guess it would be possible to partially coat the
                        > > barrel with some kind of natural coating (beeswax??) to reduce
                        > > evaporation, and give a result similar to the commercials (even though
                        > > our stuff is better than theirs anyway!!)
                        > > Thats enough on this for now from me, i hand over the mic...
                        > > Cheers
                        > > Benja
                        > >
                        >
                      • waljaco
                        Not from petroleum but distilled pine tar - yellow in colour - was used to line whiskey vats also! wal ... as you ... rate. ... wood- ... bigger ... such a ...
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 15, 2007
                          Not from petroleum but distilled pine tar - yellow in colour - was
                          used to line whiskey vats also!
                          wal
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "emailbenja" <emailbenja@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Pitch?
                          > Well i guess petroleum products are originally formed by a natural
                          > process, but buggered if I'm going to put it anywhere near my booze,
                          > no matter how special it is!!
                          > Cheers
                          > Benja
                          >
                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > A special pitch was used for beer barrels - it is still available.
                          > > wal
                          > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "emailbenja" <emailbenja@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Have been rumming for some time, and looking at barrelling, but
                          as you
                          > > > discovered, the small barrels we use have a massive evaporation
                          rate.
                          > > > This is to do with the surface area of the liquid exposed to the
                          wood-
                          > > > the same reason that smaller barrels age the stuff faster than
                          bigger
                          > > > ones.
                          > > > Also explains why the commercial quantities can be put down for
                          such a
                          > > > long time- try putting anything in a small barrel, and apart
                          from most
                          > > > of it disappearing, it will flavour up in just a few months
                          (which is
                          > > > about the time any of our stuff lasts for!!) and will go way
                          over the
                          > > > top if left for too long. Although this flavour effect will reduce
                          > > > with subsequent fillings, the evaporation rate will remain about the
                          > > > same once the wood is soaked.
                          > > > So apart from the retro and kitch factors, stick with the sealed
                          glass
                          > > > bottles, and a handful of oak chips- its also easier to tell what
                          > > > stage your product is at regarding colouration.
                          > > > Having said that, i guess it would be possible to partially coat the
                          > > > barrel with some kind of natural coating (beeswax??) to reduce
                          > > > evaporation, and give a result similar to the commercials (even
                          though
                          > > > our stuff is better than theirs anyway!!)
                          > > > Thats enough on this for now from me, i hand over the mic...
                          > > > Cheers
                          > > > Benja
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • waljaco
                          Brewer s Pitch http://www.jastown.com/bulk/bp-293.htm wal ... about the ... coat the
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 15, 2007
                            Brewer's Pitch

                            http://www.jastown.com/bulk/bp-293.htm

                            wal
                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Not from petroleum but distilled pine tar - yellow in colour - was
                            > used to line whiskey vats also!
                            > wal
                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "emailbenja" <emailbenja@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Pitch?
                            > > Well i guess petroleum products are originally formed by a natural
                            > > process, but buggered if I'm going to put it anywhere near my booze,
                            > > no matter how special it is!!
                            > > Cheers
                            > > Benja
                            > >
                            > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > A special pitch was used for beer barrels - it is still available.
                            > > > wal
                            > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "emailbenja" <emailbenja@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Have been rumming for some time, and looking at barrelling, but
                            > as you
                            > > > > discovered, the small barrels we use have a massive evaporation
                            > rate.
                            > > > > This is to do with the surface area of the liquid exposed to the
                            > wood-
                            > > > > the same reason that smaller barrels age the stuff faster than
                            > bigger
                            > > > > ones.
                            > > > > Also explains why the commercial quantities can be put down for
                            > such a
                            > > > > long time- try putting anything in a small barrel, and apart
                            > from most
                            > > > > of it disappearing, it will flavour up in just a few months
                            > (which is
                            > > > > about the time any of our stuff lasts for!!) and will go way
                            > over the
                            > > > > top if left for too long. Although this flavour effect will reduce
                            > > > > with subsequent fillings, the evaporation rate will remain
                            about the
                            > > > > same once the wood is soaked.
                            > > > > So apart from the retro and kitch factors, stick with the sealed
                            > glass
                            > > > > bottles, and a handful of oak chips- its also easier to tell what
                            > > > > stage your product is at regarding colouration.
                            > > > > Having said that, i guess it would be possible to partially
                            coat the
                            > > > > barrel with some kind of natural coating (beeswax??) to reduce
                            > > > > evaporation, and give a result similar to the commercials (even
                            > though
                            > > > > our stuff is better than theirs anyway!!)
                            > > > > Thats enough on this for now from me, i hand over the mic...
                            > > > > Cheers
                            > > > > Benja
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • mavnkaf
                            Hi Trid, If I remember right Harry said you start with a 1/3 low wines/ 1/3 feints/ 1/3 dunder. Then change the ratio to what you prefer. Again Harry did
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 15, 2007
                              Hi Trid, If I remember right Harry said you start with a 1/3 low
                              wines/ 1/3 feints/ 1/3 dunder. Then change the ratio to what you
                              prefer. Again Harry did say some where between 85% - 65%, the stuff
                              before and after goes in the feints bottle. And then there was the
                              Arroyo'cuts method, This is what Harry and Rob had to say about it.

                              -------------------------------------------------------------
                              "Re: rum: Murtaugh/Arrosso HARRY!!

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > Hi all,
                              rum wash is doing great. I've now looked in detail at Murtaugh, and
                              compared with Arrosso patent of '45 in tastylyme.
                              The patent suggests chucking tails btw 50%-37.5%ABV, and collecting
                              the mysterious "rum oil" laden fraction thereafter.
                              Murtaugh's description of a later Arrosso work seems to blend
                              EVERYTHING, albeit in various proportions for light/dark rum. In the
                              same bit he mentions that this is after a continuous
                              distillation "with facility for removal of fusils".
                              So doesn't the blend work on a batch run?
                              Or should I collect everything and throw out what smells foul before
                              blending? What did you do on the patent Harry?
                              Cheers,
                              Rob.


                              I did just as Arroyo's patent suggested. Collected to ~50%, then
                              switched to tails until 37%, then back to collecting, but I put the
                              last bit (which wasn't much, BTW) into a separate container, just in
                              case it turned out to be foul. Didn't want to spoil a whole run.
                              However mine was ok so I added it and put the distillate on oak at
                              ~65% abv. Used a bubbler to aerate for a couple days, then left
                              if. 2 months of that and it tasted pretty good, but in hindsight
                              I'd definitely combine Arroyo's cuts with correct molasses prep and
                              the dunder method, as I believe it would be even more flavoursome.
                              I didn't try a full session on it but I have a sneaking suspicion
                              this late cut method may well put the hangover back in. It would be
                              interesting to leave it a couple years on wood to see if the rum
                              esters develop further, but of course that's nigh on impossible, at
                              least at my house. :-))


                              Slainte!
                              regards Harry"
                              -----------------------------------------------------------------

                              I also tried these cuts just the way Harry mentioned, and I would
                              agree with Harry about the hangover, but I will say it provided more
                              favour, Maybe I should have aged I longer:)

                              Cheers
                              Marc


                              I've
                              > sort of forgotten what that was...sort of. The general principle
                              (as I
                              > interpret it) is that one strips the wash, combines the low wines
                              with dunder
                              > and feints for the spirit run, and then has a right nifty,
                              flavorful rum. The
                              > grand mystery, of course, are the specifics...recipe of the wash,
                              proportions
                              > of low wines/feints/dunder, where to make the cuts in the final
                              spirit, etc.
                            • Trid
                              ... Which is essentially what I ve been doing. It works out pretty well with my batches (IMHO) in that a 5 gallon wash yields about a gallon of low wines. I
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 16, 2007
                                --- mavnkaf <mavnkaf@...> wrote:

                                > Hi Trid, If I remember right Harry said you start with a 1/3 low
                                > wines/ 1/3 feints/ 1/3 dunder. Then change the ratio to what you
                                > prefer. Again Harry did say some where between 85% - 65%, the stuff
                                > before and after goes in the feints bottle. And then there was the
                                > Arroyo'cuts method, This is what Harry and Rob had to say about it.

                                >
                                > I also tried these cuts just the way Harry mentioned, and I would
                                > agree with Harry about the hangover, but I will say it provided more
                                > favour, Maybe I should have aged I longer:)
                                >
                                > Cheers
                                > Marc

                                Which is essentially what I've been doing. It works out pretty well with my
                                batches (IMHO) in that a 5 gallon wash yields about a gallon of low wines. I
                                have about a gallon of feints from the previous run, and I set aside a gallon
                                of dunder from the stripping.

                                My spirit run consists of one gallon of each which ends up with about 2/3
                                gallon of hearts (cut to ~50% yields about a gallon) a gallon of feints, and,
                                well...I dunno what you'd call it, "super dunder?" "Dunder plus?" "Uber
                                dunder?"

                                This leads me to wonder: Should I use the dunder from the stripping run in my
                                subsequent spirit run, or should I use the stuff from the previous spirit run?

                                Unless there's an obvious reason not to use it that I've overlooked, I might
                                try using the uber-dunder for a subsequent spirit run to see how it turns out.
                                Presently, I'm looking more towards repeatability and consistent, predictable
                                results with the runs I'm doing now. If I have that down, then I can start
                                varying the process more drastically to observe the differences each change
                                makes.

                                Trid
                                -Uber geek...now why doesn't my keyboard have an umlaut already on it?
                              • mavnkaf
                                ... stripping run in my ... spirit run? ... overlooked, I might ... turns out. ... predictable ... can start ... each change ... it? ... Good question about
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 16, 2007
                                  >
                                  > This leads me to wonder: Should I use the dunder from the
                                  stripping run in my
                                  > subsequent spirit run, or should I use the stuff from the previous
                                  spirit run?
                                  >
                                  > Unless there's an obvious reason not to use it that I've
                                  overlooked, I might
                                  > try using the uber-dunder for a subsequent spirit run to see how it
                                  turns out.
                                  > Presently, I'm looking more towards repeatability and consistent,
                                  predictable
                                  > results with the runs I'm doing now. If I have that down, then I
                                  can start
                                  > varying the process more drastically to observe the differences
                                  each change
                                  > makes.
                                  >
                                  > Trid
                                  > -Uber geek...now why doesn't my keyboard have an umlaut already on
                                  it?
                                  >


                                  Good question about which dunder to use for the spirit run, I've been
                                  think about this qestion as well. I'm guessing to keep the spirit
                                  dunder for the spirit run and to use the striped dunder for
                                  fermenting process? Well thats what I'm going to do next week, I
                                  have about 95 liters rum wash ready to go.

                                  The reason I have been thinking about this as I've got too much
                                  dunder sitting around and I did't know which to keep and throw out.
                                  Two weeks ago I kept 10 liters from my last spirit dunder so I'm
                                  defiantly tyring it in next spirit run.

                                  One thing I did on that last spirit run was, I shut the still down
                                  earlier than I normaly do, (after taking some feints, down to 40%),
                                  because figured I was going to use the remains in the next spirit run
                                  anyway and it ment that I would use less power. It seemed like a good
                                  idear at the time.

                                  Cheers
                                  Marc
                                • Gert Genert
                                  ... Alt + 0252 Now who is the geekier? Jan.
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 17, 2007
                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- mavnkaf <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Trid
                                    > -Uber geek...now why doesn't my keyboard have an umlaut already on it?
                                    >


                                    Alt + 0252

                                    Now who is the geekier?

                                    Jan.
                                  • Harry
                                    ... previous ... it ... on ... been ... out. ... 40%), ... run ... good ... Uber-dunder??!!? Spirit dunder? Stripped dunder? You guys are tying yourselves in
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 18, 2007
                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > This leads me to wonder: Should I use the dunder from the
                                      > stripping run in my
                                      > > subsequent spirit run, or should I use the stuff from the
                                      previous
                                      > spirit run?
                                      > >
                                      > > Unless there's an obvious reason not to use it that I've
                                      > overlooked, I might
                                      > > try using the uber-dunder for a subsequent spirit run to see how
                                      it
                                      > turns out.
                                      > > > > Trid
                                      > > -Uber geek...now why doesn't my keyboard have an umlaut already
                                      on
                                      > it?


                                      >
                                      > Good question about which dunder to use for the spirit run, I've
                                      been
                                      > think about this qestion as well. I'm guessing to keep the spirit
                                      > dunder for the spirit run and to use the striped dunder for
                                      > fermenting process? Well thats what I'm going to do next week, I
                                      > have about 95 liters rum wash ready to go.
                                      >
                                      > The reason I have been thinking about this as I've got too much
                                      > dunder sitting around and I did't know which to keep and throw
                                      out.
                                      > Two weeks ago I kept 10 liters from my last spirit dunder so I'm
                                      > defiantly tyring it in next spirit run.
                                      >
                                      > One thing I did on that last spirit run was, I shut the still down
                                      > earlier than I normaly do, (after taking some feints, down to
                                      40%),
                                      > because figured I was going to use the remains in the next spirit
                                      run
                                      > anyway and it ment that I would use less power. It seemed like a
                                      good
                                      > idear at the time.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers
                                      > Marc
                                      >




                                      Uber-dunder??!!? Spirit dunder? Stripped dunder?

                                      You guys are tying yourselves in knots! :)


                                      Dunder:

                                      There is but ONE dunder. It is the spent WASH from the first
                                      distillation, NOT the spent LOW WINES of the second distillation.
                                      The spent wash after first distillation should contain dead yeast
                                      cells & anything else that doesn't turn to vapour. When left
                                      to 'clear', that means all the crud settles out and what's left on
                                      top is a relatively clean (but coloured) liquid. THIS IS DUNDER.
                                      It contains desirable esters, a few lipids & vitamins that are
                                      useful in recycling. It is added to subsequent fermentations and
                                      spirit distillations. If you are collecting more than you need,
                                      keep what you can use & toss out the rest. You can use up to about
                                      40% of the liquid of a new fermentation as dunder. But remember it
                                      has been boiled, so it will require aeration (re-oxygenation) or you
                                      run the risk of a stuck ferment.


                                      Now to this ermmm...Über-dunder (cute name Trid) :)


                                      Spent Low Wines (Stillage):

                                      If you're doing your distilling properly, then spent low wines (2nd
                                      distillation stillage) should be nothing more than water with the
                                      smallest bit of ethanol (less than 5% hobby, or 1% commercial).
                                      Everything after the hearts-to-tails cut should have been directed
                                      to the feints receiver (unless you're doing the Arroyo method).

                                      If you're not running the tails right out into the feints receiver,
                                      then you're not collecting the 'rum oils' that Arroyo spoke of.
                                      Thus when you add these feints to a subsequent spirit distillation,
                                      there's no concentration of the rum oils. You've thrown them all
                                      away!!!

                                      Remember this is RUM we're talking about, not whisky. Distilling
                                      techniques vary, and even amongst rum makers they vary according
                                      to what type of rum is being made, be it heavy, light, gold
                                      or 'silver' rum.

                                      Unlike commercial distilleries, Amateurs & hobbyists commonly don't
                                      run out the tails on a rum spirit run. Most of us throw out the
                                      spent stillage, not realising we are also removing the rum oils each
                                      time. It's a pain-in-the-ass to do the run-out, and many people
                                      grizzle about 'diminishing returns'. But its value lies in the
                                      recovery of the rum oils (actually an ester, Isobutyl Propionate,
                                      found in the tails).

                                      Every fermentation & distillation will produce its own set of esters
                                      through yeast action and/or heat, but none of them can escape the
                                      recycling unless you mistakenly or deliberately throw them out.

                                      Arroyo's method calls for throwing out the bit between 50% & 35%
                                      (3rd cut, smells a bit like wet cardboard), and then running out the
                                      rest of the tails (4th cut, containing the desirable Isobutyl
                                      esters) into the product.

                                      By contrast, our method cuts the tails at around 50% each time, with
                                      tails (& esters) being run to feints, NOT thrown out. The level of
                                      esters (the rum oils) will, after several distillations & feints
                                      recoveries, become extremely high. This is why it takes several
                                      distillations to develop a distinct and continuous rum signature.
                                      The more concentrated they become, the more flavour they add to the
                                      spirit when recycled in subsequent spirit distillations. You will
                                      reach a point of equilibrium where all the esters being created will
                                      be passed on in the spirit product, through addition to and removal
                                      from the feints receiver.

                                      The end result is similar to Arroyo's method, in that it adds
                                      concentrated rum oils to the product, but more intensely developed.
                                      It differs in that the wet cardboard esters are also recycled. This
                                      is common in many rums around the world, and perhaps the strong
                                      aromatic rum oils actually mask the inferior esters. Perhaps we may
                                      need to do as Arroyo does and remove that 50-to-35 section for a few
                                      runs, just to see if it makes any desirable difference, or whether
                                      those inferior esters are actually a part of the rum profile we're
                                      so used to. There's always room for experimentation & possible
                                      improvement.

                                      So, your feints receiver should smell progressively stronger of rum
                                      oils with each successive feints collection, reaching a point at
                                      equilibrium where there's no significant change in smell/flavour
                                      intensity . Thus making a consistent, aromatic rum takes several
                                      runs to develop.

                                      It should now be obvious to you the reason that you don't mix feints
                                      from different spirits types. Keep them separate, ie rum feints
                                      receiver, whisky feints receiver etc., or you'll finish up with
                                      everything you make smelling like rum, or grappa, or whatever the
                                      dominant esters are in your all-mixed-in feints receiver.

                                      Making rum is as much about recycling & collecting feints as it is
                                      about collecting product, moreso perhaps than any other spirit
                                      type. If you have been lazy & have combined all your rum, whisky
                                      etc. feints, or they start to be more in volume than you are willing
                                      to keep, then by all means distil them. They make a useful source
                                      of neutral alcohol for blending purposes or for infusions in
                                      schnapps making.

                                      Just dilute them with an equal volume of water and run them on their
                                      own to a neutral alcohol for blending purposes. But be aware that
                                      when doing an all-feints distillation, you do NOT collect more
                                      feints from it. Discard all of the heads, tails & the spent feints
                                      left in the boiler.

                                      A long post, but hopefully it clears up a few points.

                                      Slainte!
                                      regards Harry
                                    • mavnkaf
                                      ... you ... Thanks Harry for the long post, heaps of useful info. Sorry for the late reply, the weekend buggered me up time wise with kids and stuff:) So as
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 21, 2007
                                        >
                                        > Uber-dunder??!!? Spirit dunder? Stripped dunder?
                                        >
                                        > You guys are tying yourselves in knots! :)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Dunder:
                                        >
                                        > There is but ONE dunder. It is the spent WASH from the first
                                        > distillation, NOT the spent LOW WINES of the second distillation.
                                        > The spent wash after first distillation should contain dead yeast
                                        > cells & anything else that doesn't turn to vapour. When left
                                        > to 'clear', that means all the crud settles out and what's left on
                                        > top is a relatively clean (but coloured) liquid. THIS IS DUNDER.
                                        > It contains desirable esters, a few lipids & vitamins that are
                                        > useful in recycling. It is added to subsequent fermentations and
                                        > spirit distillations. If you are collecting more than you need,
                                        > keep what you can use & toss out the rest. You can use up to about
                                        > 40% of the liquid of a new fermentation as dunder. But remember it
                                        > has been boiled, so it will require aeration (re-oxygenation) or
                                        you
                                        > run the risk of a stuck ferment.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Now to this ermmm...Über-dunder (cute name Trid) :)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>
                                        > A long post, but hopefully it clears up a few points.
                                        >
                                        > Slainte!
                                        > regards Harry
                                        >


                                        Thanks Harry for the long post, heaps of useful info. Sorry for the
                                        late reply, the weekend buggered me up time wise with kids and stuff:)

                                        So as far as the dunder goes, I try to use dunder from the first
                                        distillation when ever I can? I got a feeling that's what your
                                        saying, right? I found the late cuts a bit hard on the head but I do
                                        realize I should have left it longer, got another 4.5 liters left
                                        thats about 1.5 months old now and I'll leave it longer to see if it
                                        gets better.

                                        I have found using Arroyo's method gives a great full flavour, you
                                        can drink it neat easily @ 40%. I am surprised how good it is
                                        considering the lack of time it spent ageing so I'm willing to do
                                        more of these cuts but leave them longer, plus to test your idear of
                                        building up the rum oil. BTW my last spirit run, I was lazy, sorry,
                                        letting the team down, I won't do it again:)

                                        Next question? What does the pineapple do? I've got idears but not
                                        too sure, what ever, it works very well!

                                        Cheers
                                        Marc
                                      • Matt
                                        this has been an extremely enlightening exchange but I still have a question...why is it called backset in a whiskey recipe, but dunder in a rum recipe? Am I
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 21, 2007
                                          this has been an extremely enlightening exchange but I still have a
                                          question...why is it called backset in a whiskey recipe, but dunder in
                                          a rum recipe? Am I missing a critical part that separates the two,
                                          i.e. dunder is clear while backset is not?



                                          > Uber-dunder??!!? Spirit dunder? Stripped dunder?
                                          >
                                          > You guys are tying yourselves in knots! :)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Dunder:
                                          >
                                          > There is but ONE dunder. It is the spent WASH from the first
                                          > distillation, NOT the spent LOW WINES of the second distillation.
                                          > The spent wash after first distillation should contain dead yeast
                                          > cells & anything else that doesn't turn to vapour. When left
                                          > to 'clear', that means all the crud settles out and what's left on
                                          > top is a relatively clean (but coloured) liquid. THIS IS DUNDER.
                                          > It contains desirable esters, a few lipids & vitamins that are
                                          > useful in recycling. It is added to subsequent fermentations and
                                          > spirit distillations. If you are collecting more than you need,
                                          > keep what you can use & toss out the rest. You can use up to about
                                          > 40% of the liquid of a new fermentation as dunder. But remember it
                                          > has been boiled, so it will require aeration (re-oxygenation) or you
                                          > run the risk of a stuck ferment.
                                          >
                                          > <snip>
                                        • Harry
                                          ... dunder in ... That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet. --Wm. Shakespeare, from Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2) This is a topic
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 21, 2007
                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" <mauger81@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > this has been an extremely enlightening exchange but I still have a
                                            > question...why is it called backset in a whiskey recipe, but
                                            dunder in
                                            > a rum recipe? Am I missing a critical part that separates the two,
                                            > i.e. dunder is clear while backset is not?



                                            "That which we call a rose
                                            By any other name would smell as sweet."

                                            --Wm. Shakespeare, from "Romeo and Juliet" (II, ii, 1-2)


                                            This is a topic of much confusion.
                                            "Backset" is a term originating in the Deep South of the U.S., used
                                            specifically in whiskey manufacture.
                                            "Dunder" is a term of much older usage. I'm not sure but I think it
                                            has Germanic origins.

                                            The distillers of the late 19th to early 20th centuries used to
                                            call "Backset" the slops from the fermenter, used to start further
                                            fermentations. IOW, it had live yeast in it.

                                            By contrast, "Dunder" was always the boiled dregs remaining in the
                                            still after first distillation. IOW, the yeast it contained was
                                            dead.

                                            Some later references (particularly internet) confuse the two. I've
                                            seen "Dunder" referred to as live frothy high-kreusen skimmings.
                                            But it never appears as such in the older texts.

                                            Modern yeast manufacturers eg Mauri Foods in Australia, refer
                                            to "Dunder" as the waste runoff from the propagation process. It is
                                            pumped onto fields as fertiliser.

                                            By the same token, the word "Backset" has also in later times become
                                            a blurred meaning. This was pointed out to me recently by
                                            Pint_o_shine on Artisan-Distillers.

                                            Interestingly, the original whisky makers, the Scots & Irish, don't
                                            use "Backset" at all. However, the original rum makers, the West
                                            Indians, always use "Dunder".

                                            Suitably confused?

                                            I can re-post the entire thing from Artisan-Distillers, but only
                                            with Pint_o_shine's approval.


                                            Slainte!
                                            regards Harry
                                          • waljaco
                                            Redunder - Middle French from the Latin redundare wal ... have a ... two, ... used ... it ... I ve ... is ... become ... don t
                                            Message 21 of 24 , May 21, 2007
                                              'Redunder' - Middle French from the Latin 'redundare'

                                              wal
                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" <mauger81@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > this has been an extremely enlightening exchange but I still
                                              have a
                                              > > question...why is it called backset in a whiskey recipe, but
                                              > dunder in
                                              > > a rum recipe? Am I missing a critical part that separates the
                                              two,
                                              > > i.e. dunder is clear while backset is not?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > "That which we call a rose
                                              > By any other name would smell as sweet."
                                              >
                                              > --Wm. Shakespeare, from "Romeo and Juliet" (II, ii, 1-2)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > This is a topic of much confusion.
                                              > "Backset" is a term originating in the Deep South of the U.S.,
                                              used
                                              > specifically in whiskey manufacture.
                                              > "Dunder" is a term of much older usage. I'm not sure but I think
                                              it
                                              > has Germanic origins.
                                              >
                                              > The distillers of the late 19th to early 20th centuries used to
                                              > call "Backset" the slops from the fermenter, used to start further
                                              > fermentations. IOW, it had live yeast in it.
                                              >
                                              > By contrast, "Dunder" was always the boiled dregs remaining in the
                                              > still after first distillation. IOW, the yeast it contained was
                                              > dead.
                                              >
                                              > Some later references (particularly internet) confuse the two.
                                              I've
                                              > seen "Dunder" referred to as live frothy high-kreusen skimmings.
                                              > But it never appears as such in the older texts.
                                              >
                                              > Modern yeast manufacturers eg Mauri Foods in Australia, refer
                                              > to "Dunder" as the waste runoff from the propagation process. It
                                              is
                                              > pumped onto fields as fertiliser.
                                              >
                                              > By the same token, the word "Backset" has also in later times
                                              become
                                              > a blurred meaning. This was pointed out to me recently by
                                              > Pint_o_shine on Artisan-Distillers.
                                              >
                                              > Interestingly, the original whisky makers, the Scots & Irish,
                                              don't
                                              > use "Backset" at all. However, the original rum makers, the West
                                              > Indians, always use "Dunder".
                                              >
                                              > Suitably confused?
                                              >
                                              > I can re-post the entire thing from Artisan-Distillers, but only
                                              > with Pint_o_shine's approval.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Slainte!
                                              > regards Harry
                                              >
                                            • pugidogs1
                                              ... a ... two, ... it ... I ve ... is ... become ... To help confuse the matter more. These are the terminologies that we use: Back slop...The same as dunder,
                                              Message 22 of 24 , May 22, 2007
                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" <mauger81@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > this has been an extremely enlightening exchange but I still have
                                                a
                                                > > question...why is it called backset in a whiskey recipe, but
                                                > dunder in
                                                > > a rum recipe? Am I missing a critical part that separates the
                                                two,
                                                > > i.e. dunder is clear while backset is not?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > "That which we call a rose
                                                > By any other name would smell as sweet."
                                                >
                                                > --Wm. Shakespeare, from "Romeo and Juliet" (II, ii, 1-2)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > This is a topic of much confusion.
                                                > "Backset" is a term originating in the Deep South of the U.S., used
                                                > specifically in whiskey manufacture.
                                                > "Dunder" is a term of much older usage. I'm not sure but I think
                                                it
                                                > has Germanic origins.
                                                >
                                                > The distillers of the late 19th to early 20th centuries used to
                                                > call "Backset" the slops from the fermenter, used to start further
                                                > fermentations. IOW, it had live yeast in it.
                                                >
                                                > By contrast, "Dunder" was always the boiled dregs remaining in the
                                                > still after first distillation. IOW, the yeast it contained was
                                                > dead.
                                                >
                                                > Some later references (particularly internet) confuse the two.
                                                I've
                                                > seen "Dunder" referred to as live frothy high-kreusen skimmings.
                                                > But it never appears as such in the older texts.
                                                >
                                                > Modern yeast manufacturers eg Mauri Foods in Australia, refer
                                                > to "Dunder" as the waste runoff from the propagation process. It
                                                is
                                                > pumped onto fields as fertiliser.
                                                >
                                                > By the same token, the word "Backset" has also in later times
                                                become
                                                > a blurred meaning. This was pointed out to me recently by
                                                > Pint_o_shine on Artisan-Distillers.
                                                >
                                                > Interestingly, the original whisky makers, the Scots & Irish, don't
                                                > use "Backset" at all. However, the original rum makers, the West
                                                > Indians, always use "Dunder".
                                                >
                                                > Suitably confused?
                                                >
                                                > I can re-post the entire thing from Artisan-Distillers, but only
                                                > with Pint_o_shine's approval.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Slainte!
                                                > regards Harry
                                                >

                                                To help confuse the matter more. These are the terminologies that we
                                                use:

                                                Back slop...The same as dunder, Whats left in the still after a run.

                                                Back set...What is left in the ferment tank after it has been drained.

                                                Although about 90% of the time when someone online refers to back set
                                                they are talking about what I refer to as back slop or what is left
                                                in the still after a run.

                                                OK now I am confused...Pugi
                                              • djpotpie
                                                ... On the last rum distillation we did at the distillery I collected those last tails after it dropped below 35% and kept them seperate. Let me say that those
                                                Message 23 of 24 , May 25, 2007
                                                  Harry writes:
                                                  > Arroyo's method calls for throwing out the bit between 50% & 35%
                                                  > (3rd cut, smells a bit like wet cardboard), and then running out the
                                                  > rest of the tails (4th cut, containing the desirable Isobutyl
                                                  > esters) into the product.

                                                  On the last rum distillation we did at the distillery I collected
                                                  those last tails after it dropped below 35% and kept them seperate. Let
                                                  me say that those are some vile smelling tails! You can actually smell
                                                  them from 50 ft. away. I don't think I can bring myself to add them
                                                  back to the next distillation. nasty. -mike
                                                • Harry
                                                  ... Let ... smell ... Hi Mike, I m aware that as a commercial distiller you have specific procedures to follow with every step of your process. Being
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , May 26, 2007
                                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "djpotpie" <djpotpie@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > On the last rum distillation we did at the distillery I collected
                                                    > those last tails after it dropped below 35% and kept them seperate.
                                                    Let
                                                    > me say that those are some vile smelling tails! You can actually
                                                    smell
                                                    > them from 50 ft. away. I don't think I can bring myself to add them
                                                    > back to the next distillation. nasty. -mike
                                                    >


                                                    Hi Mike,

                                                    I'm aware that as a commercial distiller you have specific procedures
                                                    to follow with every step of your process. Being proprietary, you can
                                                    hardly divulge them on an open forum. Things such as how you prepare
                                                    your molasses, what pH you shoot for, running temps, speeds etc., all
                                                    have a bearing on the product outcome as I'm sure you are aware. But
                                                    without that info, I can't say why you may be getting different
                                                    results to others. R&D is called for. If you wish, we can continue
                                                    this in private ( no I don't charge for it :) ). I'm a great
                                                    believer in the old adage "Two heads are better than one".

                                                    Slainte!
                                                    regards Harry
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