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RE: [Distillers] Re: Ozone

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  • Robert Thomas
    Hiya all, (not picking on you Peggy): ozone is a pretty powerful, non-specific oxidizer. It also has a fairly low stability and next to no selectivity. All
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 5, 2007
      Hiya all,
      (not picking on you Peggy):
      ozone is a pretty powerful, non-specific oxidizer. It also has a fairly
      low stability and next to no selectivity.
      All these things make it a bad "sterilizer". The reason it is used for
      veg treatment is that: 1. the veg is clean (ie prior washed) and all
      available (read: visible) areas of "infection" are killed, including
      the dermis/skin. 2. veg don't have deep lying bugs so you only have to
      treat the surface (rather like steak).
      But as a treatment for a highly oxidisable solution (eg wort) it is no
      more use than per-acetic acid (paa). It will run out of "steam"
      "killing" sugars before it hits any bugs.
      On the other hand, perhaps like paa it can be very effective (and leave
      negligable traces) on "clean" hardware.
      Then there is the cost difference and the danger quotient:
      paa (very impure) can be made from hydrogen peroxide (perhaps now a
      WMD?) and acetic acid. Ozone can only be made from a generator (to the
      best of my knowledge ozone is created from oxygen by high voltage: the
      ozone in a can that was mentioned really surprises me).

      But this surely is all chit-chat? When I had a brewery I cleaned with
      hot caustic. Before filling tanks I used paa. But I never let any
      unboiled wort near the fermenters.

      I sort of lost the plot there, I have no idea what I was commenting on!
      Anyway,
      cheers
      Rob.

      --- Peggy <rpk@...> wrote:

      >
      > B. stated:
      >
      >
      > You can buy ozone generators fairly inexpnsively now. But the main
      > part of my question was dealing with the fermentation step. If we
      > ozone the wort before introducing the yeast has anyone used this
      > method to sterilize the ferementing equipment and to kill any wild
      > yeasts and and will it effect the wort itself?
      >
      > Hello B.,
      >
      > You will find most all your answers in the reference Artisan
      > Distilling--A
      > guide for Small Distilleries by Kris Arvid Aerglund, Ph.D.. This
      > link was
      > given last week.
      > http://www.distillery-yeast.com/ARTISANDISTILLING1.0.0.pdf
      >
      > Cleaning and Maintenance of Distillation Devices: New stills or
      > stills not
      > used for a period of time regardless of the design should be flushed
      > by
      > boiling several times before operating. For this purpose the still
      > is
      > filled up to the rim with water. After closing the water is
      > distilled
      > without cooler. The steam exiting the cooler is passed into a drain
      > or led
      > into the ambient air using a tube. After daily operation the still
      > should
      > be cleaned in general. Very dirty stills as they are encountered
      > after
      > distillation of yeast brandies need to be brushed out thoroughly
      > using
      > suitable cleaning detergents (e.g. 1 kg sodium carbonate or per
      > filling of
      > the still. Etc.
      >
      > There is a comprehensive chapter on yeast. Read it. Without proper
      > conservation mashes and fruit juices will start fermenting sooner
      > ...due to
      > the presence of wild yeast. <snit> WILD YEAST ADHERE TO THE RAW
      > MATERIAL.
      >
      > (Peggy's note: Therefore, you must control the wild yeast PRIOR to
      > the
      > introduction of your desired yeast.)
      >
      > Fermentation Initiation
      > After mashing the fermentation should be initiated without delay
      > using pure
      > bred yeast...(with) homogeneous mixing in the mash. (Comments follow
      > on
      > acidification concentrations. No need to keep typing... the
      > reference
      > speaks for itself.)
      >
      > Peggy
      >
      >
      >


      Cheers,
      Rob.



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    • donald holcombe
      Two parts vinegar and one part hydrogen peroxide will remove surface lead and clean tarnished brass. a cleaner called One Step produces peroxide in solution
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 5, 2007
        Two parts vinegar and one part hydrogen peroxide will remove surface lead and clean tarnished brass. a cleaner called One Step produces peroxide in solution and is a favorite among many brewers. Hydrogen Peroxides effectiveness is reduced by contact with organic matter.It will sanitize surfaces that are already clean.  LATER

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: sn_cur <sn_cur@...>
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, March 5, 2007 10:20:26 AM
        Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone

        Has anyone tried using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)? It is both a powerful anti-microbial
        agent, and adds extra oxygen to water, so it could re-oxygenate water for fermenting
        after it has been boiled.

        H2O2 can initially increase oxygen levels in water to much higher than plain water, and I
        don't know how much extra oxygen yeast can cope with. So you might have to be careful
        with the amount used to make sure the concentration of oxygen wasn't too high in the
        fermenting water when you first introduce the yeast. However, H2O2 levels fall fairly
        quickly if not topped up frequently, and depending on the circumstances I think it only
        takes around a couple of days for the extra oxygen to exchange out from undisturbed
        water, leaving the original levels of oxygen. Could work well for starting a ferment.

        Just a thought.

        Cheers.

        SN




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      • Peggy
        ... From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sn_cur Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:17 AM To:
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 5, 2007
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of sn_cur
          Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:17 AM
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone

          Has anyone tried using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)? It is both a powerful
          anti-microbial
          agent, and adds extra oxygen to water, so it could re-oxygenate water for
          fermenting
          after it has been boiled.

          H2O2 can initially increase oxygen levels in water to much higher than plain
          water, and I
          don't know how much extra oxygen yeast can cope with. So you might have to
          be careful
          with the amount used to make sure the concentration of oxygen wasn't too
          high in the
          fermenting water when you first introduce the yeast. However, H2O2 levels
          fall fairly
          quickly if not topped up frequently, and depending on the circumstances I
          think it only
          takes around a couple of days for the extra oxygen to exchange out from
          undisturbed
          water, leaving the original levels of oxygen. Could work well for starting a
          ferment.

          Just a thought.

          Cheers.

          SN

          My partner stated that you may be getting ready to make quite a bit of
          acetic acid. If there is any dissolved oxygen in the mash when the yeast is
          added, then the yeast uses the oxygen for respiration and makes acetic acid.
          If there is no oxygen, the yeast uses glucose for respiration and makes
          ethanol

          P.
        • Tom Setchel
          Based on Peggy s post I wonder if it would be better to find a way of releasing as much O2 from fermentation water before the yeast is introduced to avoid as
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 6, 2007
            Based on Peggy's post I wonder if it would be better to find a way of releasing as much O2 from fermentation water before the yeast is introduced to avoid as much Acid poroduction( and more Ethanol)  as possible.  Solrt of thinking in the oposite direction of adding O2.
             
              With that assumption, can any one offer any ways to release  any disolved or trapped O2 in water?  My assumption is that bringing the water to a boil and avoiding air contact before fermentation begins would be good.    .      
             
            My next question would be would the decrease in Acitic Acid and increase in Ethanol be significant enough to warrent the resources necessary to boiling the water to release O2.
             
            TomS
             
             
             From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peggy
            Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:40 PM
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Ozone


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogro ups.com] On
            Behalf Of sn_cur
            Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:17 AM
            To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
            Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone

            Has anyone tried using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)? It is both a powerful
            anti-microbial
            agent, and adds extra oxygen to water, so it could re-oxygenate water for
            fermenting
            after it has been boiled.

            H2O2 can initially increase oxygen levels in water to much higher than plain
            water, and I
            don't know how much extra oxygen yeast can cope with. So you might have to
            be careful
            with the amount used to make sure the concentration of oxygen wasn't too
            high in the
            fermenting water when you first introduce the yeast. However, H2O2 levels
            fall fairly
            quickly if not topped up frequently, and depending on the circumstances I
            think it only
            takes around a couple of days for the extra oxygen to exchange out from
            undisturbed
            water, leaving the original levels of oxygen. Could work well for starting a
            ferment.

            Just a thought.

            Cheers.

            SN

            My partner stated that you may be getting ready to make quite a bit of
            acetic acid. If there is any dissolved oxygen in the mash when the yeast is
            added, then the yeast uses the oxygen for respiration and makes acetic acid.
            If there is no oxygen, the yeast uses glucose for respiration and makes
            ethanol

            P.

          • sn_cur
            Hi P, My understanding is that the yeast initially requires some dissolved oxygen (O2) in the water to get started, which it quickly uses up, thus producing
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 6, 2007
              Hi P,

              My understanding is that the yeast initially requires some dissolved oxygen (O2) in the
              water to get started, which it quickly uses up, thus producing the anaerobic (O2 free)
              conditions needed for ethanol production. This is why you have to somehow
              (re-)oxygenate the ferment water if you boil it first to sterilise and/or remove chlorine,
              because the boiling also drives out the original dissolved O2.

              In 'The Compleat Distiller' (Nixon & McCaw, 2nd ed), they state that "All ethanol
              fermentations require oxygen in their early phases, to promote the growth of yeast.
              (However, air MUST be kept out after the first day or two, or no alcohol will be made.)"
              Page 12. And on page 18 they say you need to "aerate" the water before adding the yeast.
              Also see page 21.

              As I understand it, your partner is right that some micro-organisms directly produce acetic
              acid during fermentation. But the yeast strains used for making ethanol don't produce
              acetic acid directly. What happens is that if O2 is added to a ferment after the first day or
              so then 1) the yeast stop producing ethanol, and 2) the existing ethanol starts being
              oxidised to acetic acid (until either the added O2, or the ethanol, is used up).

              If there is no ethanol present at the start of a ferment (which is the normal situation), then
              there is nothing for the O2 to convert to acetic acid. And because the O2 is used up
              quickly by the yeast for its initial growth, then as ethanol starts being produced there is no
              O2 left to convert it to acetic acid.

              Too high an initial level of dissolved O2 might be a problem for the yeast, but if you add
              the right amount of H2O2 after boiling, it should only have the same effect as aerating by
              stirring or using an air stone bubbler, except that H2O2 is probably easier to use and
              cleaner. H2O2 is also cheap and easy to buy from the local chemist/pharmacy.

              Just some thoughts from a distilling newbie who has just finished his first still, and is
              about to start his first fermentation. (Photos soon, when the digital camera gets back from
              holidays.)

              Cheers

              SN
            • sn_cur
              ... sanitize surfaces that are already clean. ... Hydrogen peroxide is sometimes used in commercial hydroponics operations to keep microbe infections in the
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 6, 2007
                >
                > Hydrogen Peroxides effectiveness is reduced by contact with organic matter.It will
                sanitize surfaces that are already clean.
                >

                Hydrogen peroxide is sometimes used in commercial hydroponics operations to keep
                microbe infections in the nutrient solution under control, and also to supply extra oxygen
                directly to the plant roots. So it's effectiveness can't be reduced too much by contact with
                organic matter, and it obviously doesn't hurt the sensitive plants roots in the nutrient
                solution.

                My guess is that it is a question of the concentration used. Too little will not add enough
                oxygen. Too much would probably hurt the yeast. I don't know what concentrations are
                used in hydroponics, let alone what would be appropriate for fermenting.

                Cheers

                SN
              • Trid
                ... Somebody correct me if I m wrong, but the whole principle of boosting O2 in the wort/must/wash at initial pitching (as I ve grown to understand it) is that
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 6, 2007
                  --- Tom Setchel <tset@...> wrote:

                  > Based on Peggy's post I wonder if it would be better to find a way of
                  > releasing as much O2 from fermentation water before the yeast is introduced
                  > to avoid as much Acid poroduction( and more Ethanol) as possible. Solrt of
                  > thinking in the oposite direction of adding O2.
                  >
                  > With that assumption, can any one offer any ways to release any disolved
                  > or trapped O2 in water? My assumption is that bringing the water to a boil
                  > and avoiding air contact before fermentation begins would be good. .
                  >
                  >
                  > My next question would be would the decrease in Acitic Acid and increase in
                  > Ethanol be significant enough to warrent the resources necessary to boiling
                  > the water to release O2.
                  >
                  > TomS

                  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole principle of boosting O2 in the
                  wort/must/wash at initial pitching (as I've grown to understand it) is that the
                  yeast reproduces in the presence of O2 until that is consumed...lots of
                  reproduction initially equates to a large yeast population to consume
                  sugars/make ethanol when the O2 is depleted to the point of being in an
                  anaerobic state...thus the whole point behind aerating your wash and air stones
                  and other O2 injection equipment. Not to mention, this is the principle behind
                  why freshly boiled water is a poor medium for wash upon initial pitching...no
                  oxygen to propagate the initial yeast population.

                  In short, you *DON'T* want to remove dissolved oxygen from your brewing water.
                  Further, if you do, it's well documented that you are well advised to add it
                  back for good brewing results.

                  Trid
                  -too early in the morning to locate the appropriate sources to cite
                • donald holcombe
                  Do you understand that O2 is a requirement for the reproductive stage of the yeast just prior to fermentation?? If there is NO O2 in the wort there will be no
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 6, 2007
                    Do you understand that O2 is a requirement for the reproductive stage of the yeast just prior to fermentation??  If there is NO O2 in the wort there will be no yeast to ferment the wort .! Back up and rethink what you are thinking. If you boil the water to release theO2 and do not reoxygenate the water / wort prior to introduction of the yeast, the yeast Will Not Reproduce. Resulting in failed or Stuck Ferment.. Go back to the BASICS.

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Tom Setchel <tset@...>
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2007 8:31:23 AM
                    Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Ozone

                    Based on Peggy's post I wonder if it would be better to find a way of releasing as much O2 from fermentation water before the yeast is introduced to avoid as much Acid poroduction( and more Ethanol)  as possible.  Solrt of thinking in the oposite direction of adding O2.
                     
                      With that assumption, can any one offer any ways to release  any disolved or trapped O2 in water?  My assumption is that bringing the water to a boil and avoiding air contact before fermentation begins would be good.    .      
                     
                    My next question would be would the decrease in Acitic Acid and increase in Ethanol be significant enough to warrent the resources necessary to boiling the water to release O2.
                     
                    TomS
                     
                     
                     From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Peggy
                    Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:40 PM
                    To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                    Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Ozone


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogro ups.com] On
                    Behalf Of sn_cur
                    Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:17 AM
                    To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                    Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone

                    Has anyone tried using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)? It is both a powerful
                    anti-microbial
                    agent, and adds extra oxygen to water, so it could re-oxygenate water for
                    fermenting
                    after it has been boiled.

                    H2O2 can initially increase oxygen levels in water to much higher than plain
                    water, and I
                    don't know how much extra oxygen yeast can cope with. So you might have to
                    be careful
                    with the amount used to make sure the concentration of oxygen wasn't too
                    high in the
                    fermenting water when you first introduce the yeast. However, H2O2 levels
                    fall fairly
                    quickly if not topped up frequently, and depending on the circumstances I
                    think it only
                    takes around a couple of days for the extra oxygen to exchange out from
                    undisturbed
                    water, leaving the original levels of oxygen. Could work well for starting a
                    ferment.

                    Just a thought.

                    Cheers.

                    SN

                    My partner stated that you may be getting ready to make quite a bit of
                    acetic acid. If there is any dissolved oxygen in the mash when the yeast is
                    added, then the yeast uses the oxygen for respiration and makes acetic acid.
                    If there is no oxygen, the yeast uses glucose for respiration and makes
                    ethanol

                    P.




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                  • donald holcombe
                    During reproduction yeast make Esters and Diacetyl, a Butterscotch smelling or buttery flavor in the wort.Aecetic acid is made by a bacteria known as
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 6, 2007
                      During reproduction yeast make Esters and Diacetyl, a Butterscotch smelling or buttery flavor in the wort.Aecetic acid is made by a bacteria known as Acetobacter. Excess O2 in the wort after preproduction stage is stripped away by the CO2 bubbles passing through theWort. Where do you find yeast making Vinegar ?

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Peggy <rpk@...>
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, March 5, 2007 10:40:23 PM
                      Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Ozone


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogro ups.com] On
                      Behalf Of sn_cur
                      Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:17 AM
                      To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone

                      Has anyone tried using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)? It is both a powerful
                      anti-microbial
                      agent, and adds extra oxygen to water, so it could re-oxygenate water for
                      fermenting
                      after it has been boiled.

                      H2O2 can initially increase oxygen levels in water to much higher than plain
                      water, and I
                      don't know how much extra oxygen yeast can cope with. So you might have to
                      be careful
                      with the amount used to make sure the concentration of oxygen wasn't too
                      high in the
                      fermenting water when you first introduce the yeast. However, H2O2 levels
                      fall fairly
                      quickly if not topped up frequently, and depending on the circumstances I
                      think it only
                      takes around a couple of days for the extra oxygen to exchange out from
                      undisturbed
                      water, leaving the original levels of oxygen. Could work well for starting a
                      ferment.

                      Just a thought.

                      Cheers.

                      SN

                      My partner stated that you may be getting ready to make quite a bit of
                      acetic acid. If there is any dissolved oxygen in the mash when the yeast is
                      added, then the yeast uses the oxygen for respiration and makes acetic acid.
                      If there is no oxygen, the yeast uses glucose for respiration and makes
                      ethanol

                      P.




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                    • surya9375
                      Right on Donald Its one of those cases that more is not good . We do need O2 in the wort. Thats why we aerate the wash after boiling it (Boiling removes the
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 6, 2007
                        Right on Donald
                        Its one of those cases that "more is not good". We do need O2 in the
                        wort. Thats why we aerate the wash after boiling it (Boiling removes
                        the O2). But we need it only INITIALLY for the yeast to reproduce to a
                        good size. Now its only natural to think "more yeast the better". But
                        this stage where the yeast reproduces with O2 it also makes stuff that
                        we dont want in our drink. So the whole art is to get the just about
                        needed O2 in the wash. After the required yeast is present then we
                        dont want it to make any more bad stuff and want it to start making
                        the good stuff (AKA Booze :-) ). For this to happen there should be
                        no O2 so that the yeast starts its work munching on the sugars.

                        So too little O2 or too much O2 is bad. Too little O2 and you have a
                        stuck ferment. Too much and you have to give more pain in distilling
                        and making cuts.

                        Regards
                        Surya.

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, donald holcombe <blackledge_02@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > During reproduction yeast make Esters and Diacetyl, a Butterscotch
                        smelling or buttery flavor in the wort.Aecetic acid is made by a
                        bacteria known as Acetobacter. Excess O2 in the wort after
                        preproduction stage is stripped away by the CO2 bubbles passing
                        through theWort. Where do you find yeast making Vinegar ?
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Peggy <rpk@...>
                        > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2007 10:40:23 PM
                        > Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Ozone
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogro
                        ups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of sn_cur
                        > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:17 AM
                        > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                        > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone
                        >
                        > Has anyone tried using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)? It is both a powerful
                        > anti-microbial
                        > agent, and adds extra oxygen to water, so it could re-oxygenate
                        water for
                        > fermenting
                        > after it has been boiled.
                        >
                        > H2O2 can initially increase oxygen levels in water to much higher
                        than plain
                        > water, and I
                        > don't know how much extra oxygen yeast can cope with. So you might
                        have to
                        > be careful
                        > with the amount used to make sure the concentration of oxygen wasn't too
                        > high in the
                        > fermenting water when you first introduce the yeast. However, H2O2
                        levels
                        > fall fairly
                        > quickly if not topped up frequently, and depending on the
                        circumstances I
                        > think it only
                        > takes around a couple of days for the extra oxygen to exchange out from
                        > undisturbed
                        > water, leaving the original levels of oxygen. Could work well for
                        starting a
                        > ferment.
                        >
                        > Just a thought.
                        >
                        > Cheers.
                        >
                        > SN
                        >
                        > My partner stated that you may be getting ready to make quite a bit of
                        > acetic acid. If there is any dissolved oxygen in the mash when the
                        yeast is
                        > added, then the yeast uses the oxygen for respiration and makes
                        acetic acid.
                        > If there is no oxygen, the yeast uses glucose for respiration and makes
                        > ethanol
                        >
                        > P.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                      • surya9375
                        Hi When Ozone was first mentioned I was thinking oxiginating the finished product. ??????? I wonder!!!!!! If there would be any!!!!!!! NNNAAAAaaaaaaa there
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 6, 2007
                          Hi
                          When Ozone was first mentioned I was thinking oxiginating the finished
                          product.

                          ???????

                          I wonder!!!!!! If there would be any!!!!!!!

                          NNNAAAAaaaaaaa there would not be any difference. I think?

                          May be I should try???

                          Regards
                          Surya.

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, donald holcombe <blackledge_02@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > During reproduction yeast make Esters and Diacetyl, a Butterscotch
                          smelling or buttery flavor in the wort.Aecetic acid is made by a
                          bacteria known as Acetobacter. Excess O2 in the wort after
                          preproduction stage is stripped away by the CO2 bubbles passing
                          through theWort. Where do you find yeast making Vinegar ?
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message ----
                          > From: Peggy <rpk@...>
                          > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2007 10:40:23 PM
                          > Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Ozone
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogro
                          ups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of sn_cur
                          > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:17 AM
                          > To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                          > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone
                          >
                          > Has anyone tried using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)? It is both a powerful
                          > anti-microbial
                          > agent, and adds extra oxygen to water, so it could re-oxygenate
                          water for
                          > fermenting
                          > after it has been boiled.
                          >
                          > H2O2 can initially increase oxygen levels in water to much higher
                          than plain
                          > water, and I
                          > don't know how much extra oxygen yeast can cope with. So you might
                          have to
                          > be careful
                          > with the amount used to make sure the concentration of oxygen wasn't too
                          > high in the
                          > fermenting water when you first introduce the yeast. However, H2O2
                          levels
                          > fall fairly
                          > quickly if not topped up frequently, and depending on the
                          circumstances I
                          > think it only
                          > takes around a couple of days for the extra oxygen to exchange out from
                          > undisturbed
                          > water, leaving the original levels of oxygen. Could work well for
                          starting a
                          > ferment.
                          >
                          > Just a thought.
                          >
                          > Cheers.
                          >
                          > SN
                          >
                          > My partner stated that you may be getting ready to make quite a bit of
                          > acetic acid. If there is any dissolved oxygen in the mash when the
                          yeast is
                          > added, then the yeast uses the oxygen for respiration and makes
                          acetic acid.
                          > If there is no oxygen, the yeast uses glucose for respiration and makes
                          > ethanol
                          >
                          > P.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                          > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
                          > http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
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                        • sn_cur
                          ... That s what I thought was the situation. Thanks SN
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 7, 2007
                            >
                            > So too little O2 or too much O2 is bad. Too little O2 and you have a
                            > stuck ferment. Too much and you have to give more pain in distilling
                            > and making cuts.
                            >
                            > Regards
                            > Surya.
                            >

                            That's what I thought was the situation.

                            Thanks

                            SN
                          • Peggy
                            Thanks for the reference SN, Just passing on comments and insights.... Microbiology of all the component mixes can qualify a person for an advanced degree.
                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 7, 2007
                              Thanks for the reference SN,

                              Just passing on comments and insights.... Microbiology of all the component
                              mixes can qualify a person for an advanced degree. And as with all experts,
                              the opinion is just that: an opinion. Thanks for sharing knowledge from the
                              active members of the forum as well as quotes from expert's printed
                              opinions. Overlap and analysis could validate small points that are not
                              critical or even of use for general practice.

                              Using a non-toxic cleaning method seems like a great idea. Small details
                              that don't make much difference can be irrelevant. Mostly, we appreciate
                              general instruction for easy and efficient production. Thanks to other
                              respondents for defining the best timeline for ideal oxygen use, as has been
                              done. This information clarifies both the best and the worst of when to
                              accentuate the most positive use or omission of oxygen.

                              Here is a follow up comment from a respected biochemist: Acetobacter is one
                              of a couple of hundred yeasts and bacteria that make acetic acid.
                              Saccharomyces makes acetic acid (among other things) when it is grown
                              aerobically. In the absence of oxygen, it uses sugar in respiration and
                              makes ethanol. I'm not sure if the information above really makes a
                              difference in how we go about our process.

                              Peggy



                              My understanding is that the yeast initially requires some dissolved oxygen
                              (O2) in the
                              water to get started, which it quickly uses up, thus producing the anaerobic
                              (O2 free)
                              conditions needed for ethanol production. This is why you have to somehow
                              (re-)oxygenate the ferment water if you boil it first to sterilise and/or
                              remove chlorine,
                              because the boiling also drives out the original dissolved O2.

                              In 'The Compleat Distiller' (Nixon & McCaw, 2nd ed), they state that "All
                              ethanol
                              fermentations require oxygen in their early phases, to promote the growth of
                              yeast.
                              (However, air MUST be kept out after the first day or two, or no alcohol
                              will be made.)"
                              Page 12. And on page 18 they say you need to "aerate" the water before
                              adding the yeast.
                              Also see page 21.

                              As I understand it, your partner is right that some micro-organisms directly
                              produce acetic
                              acid during fermentation. But the yeast strains used for making ethanol
                              don't produce
                              acetic acid directly. What happens is that if O2 is added to a ferment after
                              the first day or
                              so then 1) the yeast stop producing ethanol, and 2) the existing ethanol
                              starts being
                              oxidised to acetic acid (until either the added O2, or the ethanol, is used
                              up).

                              If there is no ethanol present at the start of a ferment (which is the
                              normal situation), then
                              there is nothing for the O2 to convert to acetic acid. And because the O2 is
                              used up
                              quickly by the yeast for its initial growth, then as ethanol starts being
                              produced there is no
                              O2 left to convert it to acetic acid.

                              Too high an initial level of dissolved O2 might be a problem for the yeast,
                              but if you add
                              the right amount of H2O2 after boiling, it should only have the same effect
                              as aerating by
                              stirring or using an air stone bubbler, except that H2O2 is probably easier
                              to use and
                              cleaner. H2O2 is also cheap and easy to buy from the local chemist/pharmacy.
                            • duds2u
                              ... including some detailed info from Harry. Cheers Mal T.
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 7, 2007
                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "surya9375" <surya9375@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi
                                > When Ozone was first mentioned I was thinking oxiginating the finished
                                > product.
                                >
                                > ???????
                                >
                                > I wonder!!!!!! If there would be any!!!!!!!
                                >
                                > NNNAAAAaaaaaaa there would not be any difference. I think?
                                >
                                > May be I should try???
                                >
                                > Regards
                                > Surya.
                                >
                                > Do a search for H2O2 on this site and you will find a host of info
                                including some detailed info from Harry.
                                Cheers
                                Mal T.
                              • donald holcombe
                                A thouhgt came to me today about the Peroxide . When we make beer or wine One of the goal while handling the wort or wash before bottling is to avoid any
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 7, 2007
                                  A thouhgt came to me today about the Peroxide . When we make beer or wine One of the goal while handling the wort or wash before bottling is to avoid any action that would introduce O2 into the wort or wash. Ive smelled beer and wine that got oxygenated, and it smells like a wet paper bag.Ive distiiled some of this wine and the smell carries over somewhat.   ?  Would the peroxide leave the wort or wash smelling Oxygenated. ?? Has anyone tried this ? Inquiring Minds like mine want to Know !

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: sn_cur <sn_cur@...>
                                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 9:22:17 AM
                                  Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone


                                  >
                                  > So too little O2 or too much O2 is bad. Too little O2 and you have a
                                  > stuck ferment. Too much and you have to give more pain in distilling
                                  > and making cuts.
                                  >
                                  > Regards
                                  > Surya.
                                  >

                                  That's what I thought was the situation.

                                  Thanks

                                  SN




                                  Don't pick lemons.
                                  See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
                                • donald holcombe
                                  I cant find any info saying yeast produce acetic acid or that ethanol can oxidize into acetic acid. I find Diacetyl and acetaldehyde mentioned but no mention
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 7, 2007
                                    I cant find any info saying yeast produce acetic acid or that ethanol can oxidize into acetic acid. I find Diacetyl and acetaldehyde mentioned but no mention of Vinegar without Bacteria. Where can I find some definative info ?

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Peggy <rpk@...>
                                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 12:18:54 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Ozone

                                    Thanks for the reference SN,

                                    Just passing on comments and insights.... Microbiology of all the component
                                    mixes can qualify a person for an advanced degree. And as with all experts,
                                    the opinion is just that: an opinion. Thanks for sharing knowledge from the
                                    active members of the forum as well as quotes from expert's printed
                                    opinions. Overlap and analysis could validate small points that are not
                                    critical or even of use for general practice.

                                    Using a non-toxic cleaning method seems like a great idea. Small details
                                    that don't make much difference can be irrelevant. Mostly, we appreciate
                                    general instruction for easy and efficient production. Thanks to other
                                    respondents for defining the best timeline for ideal oxygen use, as has been
                                    done. This information clarifies both the best and the worst of when to
                                    accentuate the most positive use or omission of oxygen.

                                    Here is a follow up comment from a respected biochemist: Acetobacter is one
                                    of a couple of hundred yeasts and bacteria that make acetic acid.
                                    Saccharomyces makes acetic acid (among other things) when it is grown
                                    aerobically. In the absence of oxygen, it uses sugar in respiration and
                                    makes ethanol. I'm not sure if the information above really makes a
                                    difference in how we go about our process.

                                    Peggy


                                    My understanding is that the yeast initially requires some dissolved oxygen
                                    (O2) in the
                                    water to get started, which it quickly uses up, thus producing the anaerobic
                                    (O2 free)
                                    conditions needed for ethanol production. This is why you have to somehow
                                    (re-)oxygenate the ferment water if you boil it first to sterilise and/or
                                    remove chlorine,
                                    because the boiling also drives out the original dissolved O2.

                                    In 'The Compleat Distiller' (Nixon & McCaw, 2nd ed), they state that "All
                                    ethanol
                                    fermentations require oxygen in their early phases, to promote the growth of
                                    yeast.
                                    (However, air MUST be kept out after the first day or two, or no alcohol
                                    will be made.)"
                                    Page 12. And on page 18 they say you need to "aerate" the water before
                                    adding the yeast.
                                    Also see page 21.

                                    As I understand it, your partner is right that some micro-organisms directly
                                    produce acetic
                                    acid during fermentation. But the yeast strains used for making ethanol
                                    don't produce
                                    acetic acid directly. What happens is that if O2 is added to a ferment after
                                    the first day or
                                    so then 1) the yeast stop producing ethanol, and 2) the existing ethanol
                                    starts being
                                    oxidised to acetic acid (until either the added O2, or the ethanol, is used
                                    up).

                                    If there is no ethanol present at the start of a ferment (which is the
                                    normal situation), then
                                    there is nothing for the O2 to convert to acetic acid. And because the O2 is
                                    used up
                                    quickly by the yeast for its initial growth, then as ethanol starts being
                                    produced there is no
                                    O2 left to convert it to acetic acid.

                                    Too high an initial level of dissolved O2 might be a problem for the yeast,
                                    but if you add
                                    the right amount of H2O2 after boiling, it should only have the same effect
                                    as aerating by
                                    stirring or using an air stone bubbler, except that H2O2 is probably easier
                                    to use and
                                    cleaner. H2O2 is also cheap and easy to buy from the local chemist/pharmacy.




                                    Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
                                    with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
                                  • donald holcombe
                                    OK bad as I hate to I broke out the Old books and started with CHO. From there I went through a whole list of compounds That are near to acetic acid. OK ! If
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Mar 7, 2007
                                      OK bad as I hate to I broke out the Old books and started with CHO. From there I went through a whole list of compounds That are near to acetic acid. OK !  If you keep the wort below 80F the chances of getting Nasties in you wort are reduced. Now my head hurts !  More info would help . LATER

                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: sn_cur <sn_cur@...>
                                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 9:22:17 AM
                                      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone


                                      >
                                      > So too little O2 or too much O2 is bad. Too little O2 and you have a
                                      > stuck ferment. Too much and you have to give more pain in distilling
                                      > and making cuts.
                                      >
                                      > Regards
                                      > Surya.
                                      >

                                      That's what I thought was the situation.

                                      Thanks

                                      SN




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                                      Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
                                    • bbornais
                                      The wash is to be fermented before distilling. In order to proceed with this we must oxygenate the wash before introduction of the desired yeist strain. The
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 7, 2007
                                        The wash is to be fermented before distilling. In order to proceed
                                        with this we must oxygenate the wash before introduction of the
                                        desired yeist strain. The yeist then propogate via budding in an
                                        aerobic (oxygenated) environment. There comes a point when
                                        reproduction is halted. This point is when the yeist have depleted
                                        all the oxygen and cannot, therefore, reproduce any further. The
                                        existing yeist then stop metabolising aerobically, and switch to
                                        anaerobic metabolism. This is the point at which there is ethanol and
                                        CO2 produced.

                                        This all happens before bottling. The fermentation ceases and then
                                        you do what you wish to the fermented wash. Perhaps you are referring
                                        to introducing oxygen to the fermented wash, but I am making the
                                        assumption that bottling or distilling takes place soon after the
                                        washe is fermented out.

                                        If you waited, then I suppose your wash would start secondary
                                        fermentation, which introduced gongeners that may or may not taste
                                        pleasant.

                                        If they are unpleasant, then of course your should not bottle them.
                                        this is the brewers mistake if you do.

                                        If they are unpleasant and you are aiming at a distilled product,
                                        then it is a matter of making the proper cuts for the flavour that
                                        you seek.

                                        If your distilled product tastes like cardboard, then you have become
                                        greedy and introduced too many of the tails (congeners) into your
                                        distillate.

                                        To sum things up; there is no particular foul cardboard smell,
                                        regarding a properly distilled product, that can be linked to an
                                        oxygenated starting wash.

                                        As far as the bad smell of wine and/or beer; it could have been from
                                        an out of control secondary ferment. This could be due to
                                        experimentation, or laziness on the part of the brewer. What is comes
                                        down to, however, is an out of control secondary fermentation,
                                        producing unpleasant congeners.

                                        In the case of distillation, these congeners can be separated from
                                        the desirable product quite easily.
                                      • sn_cur
                                        Great thread so far, very interesting. Confession time: I didn t do a search first on this site for hydrogen peroxide before posting my previous questions and
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Mar 8, 2007
                                          Great thread so far, very interesting.

                                          Confession time: I didn't do a search first on this site for hydrogen peroxide before
                                          posting my previous questions and comments. Yeah, my bad lazy. I have just done a
                                          search and more reading. Here are the comments/threads that seem most useful:

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/22093

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/messages/19550?
                                          threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/16892

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/messages/14166?
                                          threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/messages/9169?
                                          threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/messages/9144?
                                          threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/1049

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/1323

                                          Harry might have a point about mixing ethanol and H2O2. (http://groups.yahoo.com/
                                          group/Distillers/message/35726).

                                          H2O2 itself is non-combustible, but it is a powerful oxidiser when mixed with a fuel (such
                                          as ethanol). It also has a very high volume expansion ratio when going from the liquid to
                                          the gas state, up to thousands of times, depending on the initial concentration (35%-700
                                          times, 50%-1300, 70%-2500). So in the right (wrong?) circumstances it could be very
                                          explosive.

                                          The following MSDS link is a PDF file:
                                          www.solvaychemicals.us/static/wma/pdf/6/6/0/4/HH-2323.pdf

                                          However, it seems that H2O2 is generally only dangerous when in high concentrations,
                                          and the concentrations needed to sterilise, and re-oxygenate water are quite low, so it is
                                          probably not a danger in fermenting. I checked several hydroponic sites and they seem to
                                          run around several hundred parts per million (ppm), which is very low when you consider
                                          that the safe limit for general home use H2O2 is about 8% concentration, which is 80 000
                                          ppm. In Australia you can buy 3-6% (medical grade) from the local chemist/pharmacist,
                                          and that is the stuff used for bleaching hair and sterilising wounds (and also by distillers
                                          for de-leading brass).

                                          IMPORTANT: Because this is a food application, you MUST use only food or medical grade,
                                          that does not contain any 'stabilisers'.

                                          Wikipedia also has a good article on H2O2. "Hydrogen peroxide decomposes to oxygen
                                          and water adding dissolved oxygen to the system..."

                                          One hydroponic site said that H2O2 also drives out the dissolved chlorine gas used in
                                          municipal water supplies. So it might be able to de-chlorinate, disinfect the water and
                                          fermenting container, AND add extra dissolved oxygen all at the same time, all without
                                          any boiling or extra aeration.

                                          Just to be clear about one thing, I am only suggesting that H2O2 (and only in low
                                          concentrations) might be useful when first preparing the wash, not after fermenting has
                                          got underway, or at the end. It is also possible that it is only useful in plain sugar washes.
                                          It might not work so well for grain, fruit, etc, based ferments because here is too much
                                          organic matter in them.

                                          The main questions seem to be:

                                          1) What initial concentration (in ppm) to use?

                                          2) Should there be a period of time between adding the H2O2 to the water in the
                                          fermenting container, and then adding the sugar and yeast? Or can the H2O2, sugar, and
                                          yeast all be added in at the same time?

                                          3) Does it work for high organic content ferments?

                                          Enough for now.

                                          Cheers
                                          SN
                                        • wineifera
                                          Reading all thoughts and facts on oxyginiating your mash before fermenting it I just want to mention my use of Potassium permanganate, KMnO4 after the
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Mar 8, 2007
                                            Reading all thoughts and facts on oxyginiating your mash before
                                            fermenting it I just want to mention my use of Potassium permanganate,
                                            KMnO4 after the fermentaion. I usually make a sugar based wash for
                                            pure vodka to make gin, limoncello, cointreau and other nice stuff.

                                            When I have fermented my mash I want to oxydize the higher alcohols
                                            into other substances with a higher boiling point. For this I use 1-2
                                            g of KMnO4 in the fermented mash (25 l) before stripping. Some
                                            ethylalcohol will obviously also be oxydized but to a lesser extent.
                                            The tails cut becomes easier I think.

                                            Since P Permanganate is tricky to find nowadays for several reasons it
                                            has been suggested to use other oxygenizers such as H2O2 or Sodium
                                            hypoclorite NaClO. Don't know of any experimental results though.

                                            /Vini


                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "surya9375" <surya9375@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi
                                            > When Ozone was first mentioned I was thinking oxiginating the finished
                                            > product.
                                            >
                                            > ???????
                                            >
                                            > I wonder!!!!!! If there would be any!!!!!!!
                                            >
                                            > NNNAAAAaaaaaaa there would not be any difference. I think?
                                            >
                                            > May be I should try???
                                            >
                                            > Regards
                                            > Surya.
                                          • donald holcombe
                                            Sodium Hypochlorite ? I cant imagine putting Chlorox Bleach in my Likker! ... From: wineifera To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Mar 8, 2007
                                              Sodium Hypochlorite ? I cant imagine putting Chlorox Bleach in my Likker!

                                              ----- Original Message ----
                                              From: wineifera <wineifera@...>
                                              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2007 6:05:48 PM
                                              Subject: [Distillers] Re: Ozone

                                              Reading all thoughts and facts on oxyginiating your mash before
                                              fermenting it I just want to mention my use of Potassium permanganate,
                                              KMnO4 after the fermentaion. I usually make a sugar based wash for
                                              pure vodka to make gin, limoncello, cointreau and other nice stuff.

                                              When I have fermented my mash I want to oxydize the higher alcohols
                                              into other substances with a higher boiling point. For this I use 1-2
                                              g of KMnO4 in the fermented mash (25 l) before stripping. Some
                                              ethylalcohol will obviously also be oxydized but to a lesser extent.
                                              The tails cut becomes easier I think.

                                              Since P Permanganate is tricky to find nowadays for several reasons it
                                              has been suggested to use other oxygenizers such as H2O2 or Sodium
                                              hypoclorite NaClO. Don't know of any experimental results though.

                                              /Vini

                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogro ups.com, "surya9375" <surya9375@. ..> wrote:

                                              >
                                              > Hi
                                              > When Ozone was first mentioned I was thinking oxiginating the finished
                                              > product.
                                              >
                                              > ???????
                                              >
                                              > I wonder!!!!!! If there would be any!!!!!!!
                                              >
                                              > NNNAAAAaaaaaaa there would not be any difference. I think?
                                              >
                                              > May be I should try???
                                              >
                                              > Regards
                                              > Surya.




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