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Re: Calling all Scotch afficionados

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  • Harry
    ... There s quite a few points in this info that have been debated at length in the groups. Things like... a) Deliberate low-strength wash (6.5% to 9.0%). b)
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 12, 2007
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      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Excellent information, thank you Mal and Harry! It's quite
      > interesting to note that the ABV of low wines can be as low as 25%.
      > I usually end up in the low 30% myself. This is especially important
      > if you do cuts by ABV, higher starting ABV will necessitate you to
      > take cuts at higher ABV as well.
      >
      > Cheers, Riku



      There's quite a few points in this info that have been debated at
      length in the groups. Things like...

      a) Deliberate low-strength wash (6.5% to 9.0%).
      b) The use of two different yeasts in a ferment.
      c) Low wines charge strength (22% to 25%) adjusted UPWARDS to 28% for
      2nd distillation (still a low start point), presumably by the addition
      of higher strength feints.

      Most of these ideas I have written about before, either in posts
      (Glenmorangie Clone)or in papers such as this one...
      http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/

      Commercial distillers don't use high ABV washes, nor high-strength 2nd
      runnings charges (although they easily could if they wished, given
      today's technology and bean-counters penchant for reducing production
      costs wherever they can, such as energy input).

      So, ask yourselves why. Risk of explosion? Probably. Inferior
      product? Most likely. Tradition? Obviously.
      Is the 2nd charge starting strength designed to hit a precise
      percentage range in final product? Certainly. That was what I
      outlined in the "Diluting the still charge" paper.

      I've said before & I'll say it again. I don't understand the modern
      hobbyists obsession with turbo yeasts, high strength washes and final
      runnings. Yes it works and is a 'quick & dirty' way of producing an
      ordinary spirit. But surely it can be seen that such differences,
      even small ones, will produce a spirit lacking in flavour & body, and
      nothing like the $100 a bottle brands that tempted us to try our hand
      in the first place?

      Oh well, to each his own. But thanks to Mal's summary, we now have
      proof positive that good spirits are crafted by methods vastly
      different to what many hobbyists think is intuitive. Food for thought.


      Slainte!
      regards Harry
    • duds2u
      ... If you can get hold of the book, Peat Smoke and Spirits by Andrew Jefford it is well worth the read as there are quite a few other nuggets in the text.
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 12, 2007
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Ever wonder what the secrets to Islay malt whiskies are?
        > Now you can find out. Mal Taylor (Duds2u) has put together
        > a summary set of facts to help you understand and
        > possibly reproduce some of these fine expressions.
        > Fascinating reading.
        >
        > Slainte!
        > regards Harry
        >
        If you can get hold of the book, 'Peat Smoke and Spirits" by Andrew
        Jefford it is well worth the read as there are quite a few
        other "nuggets" in the text. The book is essentially a journey
        through the history of Islay and the island itself but with an
        emphasis on malt whisky. Each of the distilleries has a chapter
        devoted to it's history and operations.
        For Queenslanders check out the QLD Book Depot as they recently had
        them on special for AUD$5 instead of the usual AUD$36.
        Cheers
        Mal T.
      • anthony547357
        -This seems to raise an interseting point on using Tubo yeast. Turbo appears to give around 18% wash whereas ordinary dried yeast gives perhaps 12 or 13%ABV in
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
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          -This seems to raise an interseting point on using Tubo yeast. Turbo
          appears to give around 18% wash whereas ordinary dried yeast gives
          perhaps 12 or 13%ABV in a longer space of time. So where's the sugar
          conversion gone? Presumably they both give 5 gallons of wash, give
          or take? I would imagine the higher ABV yields more alcohol, but as
          Harry suggests, there may be some penalty in flavour.

          Tony

          -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Excellent information, thank you Mal and Harry! It's quite
          > > interesting to note that the ABV of low wines can be as low as
          25%.
          > > I usually end up in the low 30% myself. This is especially
          important
          > > if you do cuts by ABV, higher starting ABV will necessitate you
          to
          > > take cuts at higher ABV as well.
          > >
          > > Cheers, Riku
          >
          >
          >
          > There's quite a few points in this info that have been debated at
          > length in the groups. Things like...
          >
          > a) Deliberate low-strength wash (6.5% to 9.0%).
          > b) The use of two different yeasts in a ferment.
          > c) Low wines charge strength (22% to 25%) adjusted UPWARDS to 28%
          for
          > 2nd distillation (still a low start point), presumably by the
          addition
          > of higher strength feints.
          >
          > Most of these ideas I have written about before, either in posts
          > (Glenmorangie Clone)or in papers such as this one...
          > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/
          >
          > Commercial distillers don't use high ABV washes, nor high-strength
          2nd
          > runnings charges (although they easily could if they wished, given
          > today's technology and bean-counters penchant for reducing
          production
          > costs wherever they can, such as energy input).
          >
          > So, ask yourselves why. Risk of explosion? Probably. Inferior
          > product? Most likely. Tradition? Obviously.
          > Is the 2nd charge starting strength designed to hit a precise
          > percentage range in final product? Certainly. That was what I
          > outlined in the "Diluting the still charge" paper.
          >
          > I've said before & I'll say it again. I don't understand the
          modern
          > hobbyists obsession with turbo yeasts, high strength washes and
          final
          > runnings. Yes it works and is a 'quick & dirty' way of producing
          an
          > ordinary spirit. But surely it can be seen that such differences,
          > even small ones, will produce a spirit lacking in flavour & body,
          and
          > nothing like the $100 a bottle brands that tempted us to try our
          hand
          > in the first place?
          >
          > Oh well, to each his own. But thanks to Mal's summary, we now
          have
          > proof positive that good spirits are crafted by methods vastly
          > different to what many hobbyists think is intuitive. Food for
          thought.
          >
          >
          > Slainte!
          > regards Harry
          >
        • Sven Pfitt
          The sugar hasn t gone anywhere. You start the bakers yeast wash at a lower specific gravity (less sugar to start with). Both end up with no sugar left. If you
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 14, 2007
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            The sugar hasn't gone anywhere.

            You start the bakers yeast wash at a lower specific gravity (less
            sugar to start with). Both end up with no sugar left.

            If you start both with the same amount of sugar (say 8KG for 5
            gallons) then the bakers yeast will poop out with sugar left in the
            wash which will cause foaming and possibly burnt sugar flavors in the
            product.

            Theoretically.

            Sven

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "anthony547357"
            <Anthony.Athawes@...> wrote:
            >
            > -This seems to raise an interseting point on using Tubo yeast.
            Turbo
            > appears to give around 18% wash whereas ordinary dried yeast gives
            > perhaps 12 or 13%ABV in a longer space of time. So where's the
            sugar
            > conversion gone? Presumably they both give 5 gallons of wash, give
            > or take? I would imagine the higher ABV yields more alcohol, but as
            > Harry suggests, there may be some penalty in flavour.
            >
            > Tony
            >
            > -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Excellent information, thank you Mal and Harry! It's quite
            > > > interesting to note that the ABV of low wines can be as low as
            > 25%.
            > > > I usually end up in the low 30% myself. This is especially
            > important
            > > > if you do cuts by ABV, higher starting ABV will necessitate you
            > to
            > > > take cuts at higher ABV as well.
            > > >
            > > > Cheers, Riku
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > There's quite a few points in this info that have been debated at
            > > length in the groups. Things like...
            > >
            > > a) Deliberate low-strength wash (6.5% to 9.0%).
            > > b) The use of two different yeasts in a ferment.
            > > c) Low wines charge strength (22% to 25%) adjusted UPWARDS to 28%
            > for
            > > 2nd distillation (still a low start point), presumably by the
            > addition
            > > of higher strength feints.
            > >
            > > Most of these ideas I have written about before, either in posts
            > > (Glenmorangie Clone)or in papers such as this one...
            > > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/
            > >
            > > Commercial distillers don't use high ABV washes, nor high-
            strength
            > 2nd
            > > runnings charges (although they easily could if they wished,
            given
            > > today's technology and bean-counters penchant for reducing
            > production
            > > costs wherever they can, such as energy input).
            > >
            > > So, ask yourselves why. Risk of explosion? Probably. Inferior
            > > product? Most likely. Tradition? Obviously.
            > > Is the 2nd charge starting strength designed to hit a precise
            > > percentage range in final product? Certainly. That was what I
            > > outlined in the "Diluting the still charge" paper.
            > >
            > > I've said before & I'll say it again. I don't understand the
            > modern
            > > hobbyists obsession with turbo yeasts, high strength washes and
            > final
            > > runnings. Yes it works and is a 'quick & dirty' way of producing
            > an
            > > ordinary spirit. But surely it can be seen that such
            differences,
            > > even small ones, will produce a spirit lacking in flavour & body,
            > and
            > > nothing like the $100 a bottle brands that tempted us to try our
            > hand
            > > in the first place?
            > >
            > > Oh well, to each his own. But thanks to Mal's summary, we now
            > have
            > > proof positive that good spirits are crafted by methods vastly
            > > different to what many hobbyists think is intuitive. Food for
            > thought.
            > >
            > >
            > > Slainte!
            > > regards Harry
            > >
            >
          • abbababbaccc
            Sven, I have understood that the reason for foaming are proteins in the mash, not sugar? Cheers, Riku
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 14, 2007
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              Sven,

              I have understood that the reason for foaming are proteins in the mash,
              not sugar?

              Cheers, Riku

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@...> wrote:
              >
              > The sugar hasn't gone anywhere.
              >
              > You start the bakers yeast wash at a lower specific gravity (less
              > sugar to start with). Both end up with no sugar left.
              >
              > If you start both with the same amount of sugar (say 8KG for 5
              > gallons) then the bakers yeast will poop out with sugar left in the
              > wash which will cause foaming and possibly burnt sugar flavors in the
              > product.
              >
              > Theoretically.
              >
              > Sven
              >
              >
            • lionchow
              That s a great document, thanks. Cheers, J
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 15, 2007
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                That's a great document, thanks.

                Cheers,
                J

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "duds2u" <taylormc@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Ever wonder what the secrets to Islay malt whiskies are?
                > > Now you can find out. Mal Taylor (Duds2u) has put together
                > > a summary set of facts to help you understand and
                > > possibly reproduce some of these fine expressions.
                > > Fascinating reading.
                > >
                > > Slainte!
                > > regards Harry
                > >
                > If you can get hold of the book, 'Peat Smoke and Spirits" by Andrew
                > Jefford it is well worth the read as there are quite a few
                > other "nuggets" in the text. The book is essentially a journey
                > through the history of Islay and the island itself but with an
                > emphasis on malt whisky. Each of the distilleries has a chapter
                > devoted to it's history and operations.
                > For Queenslanders check out the QLD Book Depot as they recently had
                > them on special for AUD$5 instead of the usual AUD$36.
                > Cheers
                > Mal T.
                >
              • surya9375
                Hi guys Just to be of some input. Although for my first distillations I used turbo and the sort, now I just use ordinary bakers yeast. The best I get out of it
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 15, 2007
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                  Hi guys
                  Just to be of some input. Although for my first distillations I used
                  turbo and the sort, now I just use ordinary bakers yeast. The best I
                  get out of it is 9% mostly 8%. As for taste?? I make vodka and I put
                  the product through a real good process. I let it mature (yeah I
                  mature vodka :-) ) Carbon filtration and the works. So I guess even
                  if there was an off taste I wouldn't know.

                  But the point is that with bakers yeast I have never got more than 9%
                  in the mash.

                  Regards
                  Surya

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "anthony547357"
                  <Anthony.Athawes@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > -This seems to raise an interseting point on using Tubo yeast. Turbo
                  > appears to give around 18% wash whereas ordinary dried yeast gives
                  > perhaps 12 or 13%ABV in a longer space of time. So where's the sugar
                  > conversion gone? Presumably they both give 5 gallons of wash, give
                  > or take? I would imagine the higher ABV yields more alcohol, but as
                  > Harry suggests, there may be some penalty in flavour.
                  >
                  > Tony
                  >
                  > -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Excellent information, thank you Mal and Harry! It's quite
                  > > > interesting to note that the ABV of low wines can be as low as
                  > 25%.
                  > > > I usually end up in the low 30% myself. This is especially
                  > important
                  > > > if you do cuts by ABV, higher starting ABV will necessitate you
                  > to
                  > > > take cuts at higher ABV as well.
                  > > >
                  > > > Cheers, Riku
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > There's quite a few points in this info that have been debated at
                  > > length in the groups. Things like...
                  > >
                  > > a) Deliberate low-strength wash (6.5% to 9.0%).
                  > > b) The use of two different yeasts in a ferment.
                  > > c) Low wines charge strength (22% to 25%) adjusted UPWARDS to 28%
                  > for
                  > > 2nd distillation (still a low start point), presumably by the
                  > addition
                  > > of higher strength feints.
                  > >
                  > > Most of these ideas I have written about before, either in posts
                  > > (Glenmorangie Clone)or in papers such as this one...
                  > > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/
                  > >
                  > > Commercial distillers don't use high ABV washes, nor high-strength
                  > 2nd
                  > > runnings charges (although they easily could if they wished, given
                  > > today's technology and bean-counters penchant for reducing
                  > production
                  > > costs wherever they can, such as energy input).
                  > >
                  > > So, ask yourselves why. Risk of explosion? Probably. Inferior
                  > > product? Most likely. Tradition? Obviously.
                  > > Is the 2nd charge starting strength designed to hit a precise
                  > > percentage range in final product? Certainly. That was what I
                  > > outlined in the "Diluting the still charge" paper.
                  > >
                  > > I've said before & I'll say it again. I don't understand the
                  > modern
                  > > hobbyists obsession with turbo yeasts, high strength washes and
                  > final
                  > > runnings. Yes it works and is a 'quick & dirty' way of producing
                  > an
                  > > ordinary spirit. But surely it can be seen that such differences,
                  > > even small ones, will produce a spirit lacking in flavour & body,
                  > and
                  > > nothing like the $100 a bottle brands that tempted us to try our
                  > hand
                  > > in the first place?
                  > >
                  > > Oh well, to each his own. But thanks to Mal's summary, we now
                  > have
                  > > proof positive that good spirits are crafted by methods vastly
                  > > different to what many hobbyists think is intuitive. Food for
                  > thought.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Slainte!
                  > > regards Harry
                  > >
                  >
                • Sven Pfitt
                  I believe bakers yeast can handle 10# of sugar in a 5 gallon wash (1.092 OG). This would be 12.23%abv. I suspect that it would take a good bit longer for the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 19, 2007
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                    I believe bakers yeast can handle 10# of sugar in a 5 gallon wash
                    (1.092 OG).

                    This would be 12.23%abv.

                    I suspect that it would take a good bit longer for the yeast to
                    deplete all the sugar, but it would do it. It will probably also
                    produce more byproducts since the yeast will be stressed more than in
                    a lower wash.

                    8# of sugar in a 5 gallon wash (1.074 OG) would be 9.79%abv and would
                    probabaly finish a good bit quicker and be cleaner.

                    Sven
                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "surya9375" <surya9375@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi guys
                    > Just to be of some input. Although for my first distillations I used
                    > turbo and the sort, now I just use ordinary bakers yeast. The best I
                    > get out of it is 9% mostly 8%. As for taste?? I make vodka and I put
                    > the product through a real good process. I let it mature (yeah I
                    > mature vodka :-) ) Carbon filtration and the works. So I guess
                    even
                    > if there was an off taste I wouldn't know.
                    >
                    > But the point is that with bakers yeast I have never got more than
                    9%
                    > in the mash.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > Surya
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "anthony547357"
                    > <Anthony.Athawes@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > -This seems to raise an interseting point on using Tubo yeast.
                    Turbo
                    > > appears to give around 18% wash whereas ordinary dried yeast
                    gives
                    > > perhaps 12 or 13%ABV in a longer space of time.

                    ...snip....
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