Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Can anyone post their experience with 3 inch / 76mm diameter columns

Expand Messages
  • mavnkaf
    Thanks Surya for your input, I m thinking a column height of about 1.5 meters to start with would be A good starting point . If I have to go higher, no
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 4, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks Surya for your input, I'm thinking a column height of about
      1.5 meters to start with would be A good starting point . If I have
      to go higher, no prob's. Thanks for your other pointers as well.

      Cheers
      Marc



      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "surya9375" <surya9375@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi
      > I dont have a 3" still but for high purity I dont think anything
      > should be much different.
      >
      > Hey guys if I say anything wrong here. Please feel free to comment
      > and correct me.
      >
      > However the differences would be (according to me):-
      >
      > 1, Insulate the column properly. Even the 2" columns need this but
      if
      > its not done I guess the effect would be more seen in a 3" column.
      >
      > 2, Almost all docs state that in wider columns (like the 3" ) you
      > should not use copper scrubbers and go for marbles and the likes.
      but
      > I think the option of copper mesh did not cross them at the time.
      And
      > I think that a copper mesh rolled with the right diameter should
      be
      > the best.
      > I think they were against copper scrubbers cause scrubbers had a
      > particular diameter and if its smaller than the column diameter
      then
      > they wouldnt stack properly and would leave empty spaces as well,
      > leading to channeling. I guess you could buy 2, 1pound copper
      mesh's
      > from Amphoria and take the second one and roll it over the first.
      > Push this into the 3" column.
      >
      > 3, Dont rush the vapour.
      >
      > 4, The column height would definetely have to be taller in a 3" to
      > achieve the same strength as in a 2" column.
      >
      > These are my pointers for now.
      >
      > Hey if things work out post it back to this site and let us know
      how
      > things went.
      >
      > Regards
      > Surya
      >
    • surya9375
      Some time back when I thought I had done quite a bit of reading I posted a few questions and Harry got back to me with the answers and a lot of links proving
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 4, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Some time back when I thought I had done quite a bit of reading I
        posted a few questions and Harry got back to me with the answers and a
        lot of links proving beyond a doubt that I had a LOT more reading to
        do :-)

        One of those links was this

        http://homedistiller.org/static_menu.htm

        In this link under "Theory" you'll find "Reflux Still Design Theory"
        and "Coulmn height" underthat. If you work out the math You'll be a
        better judge to know how high is enough for you. You need to know the
        vapour through put that your boiler would give off.

        on average
        (excerpt from the link above)
        "No packing, purity = 62% , 15cm packing = 82%, 30cm = 88%, 45cm =
        90%, 60cm = 92%, 75cm = 92.8%, 90cm = 93.4%, 105cm = 93.9%. These
        won't be exact, and depend on a number of different factors, but it
        shouldn't be too far off."

        And they where talking about 2" wide coloumn at most. On 2" columns
        150cm is supposed to give you real good purity. I'm talking about 95.5
        and the likes. How much is too much is for you to decide.

        But when you widen the column to 3" the purity will fall. I think 1.5
        meters is a good place to start. I'm not sure but I think you will be
        going higher if you want a high purity cause the funny thing is that
        the first levels of purity are eaisly achived (with little hight
        increase). But from 90% it starts gets tough to push it furthur. You
        would need to put in more height per %.

        I guess you would already be knowing that commercial still that target
        at vodka (pure ethnol, no flavour) usually use columns that are 4" and
        wider. But they dont just use a mesh or something like we do. They use
        actual plates, that has water flowing through them, throughout the
        column that the vapour pushes through and bubbles upward to the next
        plate.

        Regards
        Surya.


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks Surya for your input, I'm thinking a column height of about
        > 1.5 meters to start with would be A good starting point . If I have
        > to go higher, no prob's. Thanks for your other pointers as well.
        >
        > Cheers
        > Marc
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "surya9375" <surya9375@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi
        > > I dont have a 3" still but for high purity I dont think anything
        > > should be much different.
        > >
        > > Hey guys if I say anything wrong here. Please feel free to comment
        > > and correct me.
        > >
        > > However the differences would be (according to me):-
        > >
        > > 1, Insulate the column properly. Even the 2" columns need this but
        > if
        > > its not done I guess the effect would be more seen in a 3" column.
        > >
        > > 2, Almost all docs state that in wider columns (like the 3" ) you
        > > should not use copper scrubbers and go for marbles and the likes.
        > but
        > > I think the option of copper mesh did not cross them at the time.
        > And
        > > I think that a copper mesh rolled with the right diameter should
        > be
        > > the best.
        > > I think they were against copper scrubbers cause scrubbers had a
        > > particular diameter and if its smaller than the column diameter
        > then
        > > they wouldnt stack properly and would leave empty spaces as well,
        > > leading to channeling. I guess you could buy 2, 1pound copper
        > mesh's
        > > from Amphoria and take the second one and roll it over the first.
        > > Push this into the 3" column.
        > >
        > > 3, Dont rush the vapour.
        > >
        > > 4, The column height would definetely have to be taller in a 3" to
        > > achieve the same strength as in a 2" column.
        > >
        > > These are my pointers for now.
        > >
        > > Hey if things work out post it back to this site and let us know
        > how
        > > things went.
        > >
        > > Regards
        > > Surya
        > >
        >
      • don1lia2joe3
        I run a 4 inch colum still for making alcohol using the FFS plans posted on the alcoholfuel list. It produces 5 gallons per hour of 195 proof alcohol but it is
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 4, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          I run a 4 inch colum still for making alcohol using the FFS plans
          posted on the alcoholfuel list. It produces 5 gallons per hour of 195
          proof alcohol but it is all the alchols mixed together (as this is a
          fule alcohol still)
          The alcohol can then be run through a smaller (50mm) seperating
          column to seperate the alcohols at an incredable speed. you have to
          be on your toes though as you can miss the seperation point quickly.

          Donald

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
          >
          > After building a 2.5 meter 50 mm LM still with insulation, 1100
          watt
          > stillspirit element in a 20 L hot water Urn. I found the purity
          > went up alot but I did not feel comfortable to increase the liquid
          > off take too much. So the time taken was only about 2 hours
          shorter
          > than normal(10 hours).
          >
          > SO after talking to one of the Mike's I'm thinking about making a 3
          > inch / 76 mm diameter column. Can anyone tell me about their
          > experiences in making and running such a still.
          >
          > Also what type of still design a 76 mm column would it lend self
          > to?
          > LM,VM also the condenser type. I can make a shotgun condencer, and
          > all ready have a 50 mm shotgun condenser that has about 6.3 meters
          > copper 6mm tubing if its helpes? But happy to make one like
          Stevo's.
          >
          > The maths, well I don't much, but I think it goes like
          4.9x2000/750=
          > 1306"/sec @ 3 inch column in a unpacked column which I'm told is,
          >
          > "which is right on the nose for all intents and purposes. It's not
          > the length of the column that matters, but its diameter. All the
          > best,
          > Mike Nixon"
          >
          > So what I'm after is results and if possible a good starting lenght
          > for such diameter. Any takers?
          >
          > Cheers
          > Marc
          >
        • abbababbaccc
          Here are some observation from 3 columns versus 2 stuff: On average you loose ~1% ABV when moving from 2 to 3 if all other parameters are kept equal. In
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 4, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Here are some observation from 3" columns versus 2" stuff:

            On average you loose ~1% ABV when moving from 2" to 3" if all other
            parameters are kept equal. In practise thise means that HETP is
            increased by 50% using very rough estimation. This promotes the use of
            higher column to fix things. For height I'd recommend at least 1.5
            meters if you can afford it.

            Packing, as mentioned mesh rolls are recommended to avoid voids in
            packing.

            Product removal, for neutral alcohol VM and ARC are the best.
            Succesfull 3" columns have been built using both approaches.

            Power, 2kW to the column works well.

            Otherwise things are roughly the same as they are with 2" columns.

            Cheers, Riku
          • surya9375
            Head on Rikku. I would just like to adda comment from a reply I got from Amphora Society when I enquired to purchase the copper mesh. ... If this is true then
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Head on Rikku.

              I would just like to adda comment from a reply I got from Amphora
              Society when I enquired to purchase the copper mesh.

              ------------------------------------
              >One pound of mesh would be sufficient to pack one metre of 2 inch
              >diameter column, so you would need two pounds to accomplish your aim
              >of packing 1.5 metre. This would leave about 0.5 pound spare, but it
              >should be noted that the top reflux condenser needs mesh inside if it
              >is to function at full efficiency. It would therefore not be wasted.
              ------------------------------------

              If this is true then I guess you would need more than 2 pounds to have
              enough for a 3" column.

              Regards
              Surya

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Here are some observation from 3" columns versus 2" stuff:
              >
              > On average you loose ~1% ABV when moving from 2" to 3" if all other
              > parameters are kept equal. In practise thise means that HETP is
              > increased by 50% using very rough estimation. This promotes the use of
              > higher column to fix things. For height I'd recommend at least 1.5
              > meters if you can afford it.
              >
              > Packing, as mentioned mesh rolls are recommended to avoid voids in
              > packing.
              >
              > Product removal, for neutral alcohol VM and ARC are the best.
              > Succesfull 3" columns have been built using both approaches.
              >
              > Power, 2kW to the column works well.
              >
              > Otherwise things are roughly the same as they are with 2" columns.
              >
              > Cheers, Riku
              >
            • abbababbaccc
              Surya, This applies to reflux coil type condensers where you have large opening in the middle of the condenser. Filling this void with mesh slows down the
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Surya,

                This applies to reflux coil type condensers where you have large
                opening in the middle of the condenser. Filling this void with mesh
                slows down the vapor flow and improves condenser efficiency thus
                preventing vapor from escaping. Although it is not always needed it
                does not hurt to fill that void just in case.

                Cheers, Riku

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "surya9375" <surya9375@...> wrote:
                >
                > Head on Rikku.
                >
                > I would just like to adda comment from a reply I got from Amphora
                > Society when I enquired to purchase the copper mesh.
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                > >One pound of mesh would be sufficient to pack one metre of 2 inch
                > >diameter column, so you would need two pounds to accomplish your
                aim
                > >of packing 1.5 metre. This would leave about 0.5 pound spare,
                but it
                > >should be noted that the top reflux condenser needs mesh inside
                if it
                > >is to function at full efficiency. It would therefore not be
                wasted.
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > If this is true then I guess you would need more than 2 pounds to
                have
                > enough for a 3" column.
                >
                > Regards
                > Surya
                >
                >
              • mavnkaf
                Thanks guys again for the very good info, this is the sort of information I could not find in the archive. Donald, your post was interesting but I m not going
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks guys again for the very good info, this is the sort of
                  information I could not find in the archive.

                  Donald, your post was interesting but I'm not going down that road,
                  the off take speed you mention is very fast! Thanks for your
                  thoughts.

                  Surya and Riku, both of you mention a reduction of purity, that part
                  I seemed to have missed in my reading, can some one point towards
                  some thing I can read about this issue? I wrong most of the time
                  but I don't think I seen it at home distiller?

                  To Riku, as I have mentioned, I like the ARC setup but where can I
                  find more detailed info that will match a 3" column to a 3 " set up?
                  I'm abit confused about the inside sencer tube compared to outside
                  one. I have got admit that I have not read/found all the reading
                  stuff relating to this subject, sorry.

                  As far the condenser goes, I already have a shotgun condenser that
                  has about 6 meters of 6 mm copper tube in it. Copper packing, I
                  think about 4-5 pounds will do it?

                  Cheers Marc

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Surya,
                  >
                  > This applies to reflux coil type condensers where you have large
                  > opening in the middle of the condenser. Filling this void with
                  mesh
                  > slows down the vapor flow and improves condenser efficiency thus
                  > preventing vapor from escaping. Although it is not always needed
                  it
                  > does not hurt to fill that void just in case.
                  >
                  > Cheers, Riku
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "surya9375" <surya9375@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Head on Rikku.
                  > >
                  > > I would just like to adda comment from a reply I got from Amphora
                  > > Society when I enquired to purchase the copper mesh.
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > > >One pound of mesh would be sufficient to pack one metre of 2
                  inch
                  > > >diameter column, so you would need two pounds to accomplish
                  your
                  > aim
                  > > >of packing 1.5 metre. This would leave about 0.5 pound spare,
                  > but it
                  > > >should be noted that the top reflux condenser needs mesh inside
                  > if it
                  > > >is to function at full efficiency. It would therefore not be
                  > wasted.
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > If this is true then I guess you would need more than 2 pounds
                  to
                  > have
                  > > enough for a 3" column.
                  > >
                  > > Regards
                  > > Surya
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • abbababbaccc
                  Reduced quality using larger columns have been shown in practise. I don t know whether anyone have actually written about it. My writings about ARC can be
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Reduced quality using larger columns have been shown in practise. I
                    don't know whether anyone have actually written about it.

                    My writings about ARC can be found at
                    http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Listings2.htm#Books%
                    20Listings - Simple low cost stills

                    The internal sensor pipe has several advantages and is thus
                    recommended. You can use plans for smaller diameter column and make
                    measures a bit larger in proportion. Just make sure you won't
                    encounter flooding, i.e. calculate things according to the power you
                    plan on using.

                    Cheers, Riku

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Surya and Riku, both of you mention a reduction of purity, that
                    part
                    > I seemed to have missed in my reading, can some one point towards
                    > some thing I can read about this issue? I wrong most of the time
                    > but I don't think I seen it at home distiller?
                    >
                    > To Riku, as I have mentioned, I like the ARC setup but where can I
                    > find more detailed info that will match a 3" column to a 3 " set
                    up?
                    > I'm abit confused about the inside sencer tube compared to outside
                    > one. I have got admit that I have not read/found all the reading
                    > stuff relating to this subject, sorry.
                    >
                    >> > >
                    > >
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.