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Corn Mash Pilot Test Results

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  • toddk63
    I did a couple of 1/10 scale test runs this weekend. One with cornmeal and another with cracked corn. I got good extraction out of the cornmeal (1059 OG) but
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 5, 2006
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      I did a couple of 1/10 scale test runs this weekend. One with
      cornmeal and another with cracked corn.

      I got good extraction out of the cornmeal (1059 OG) but it was
      difficult to boil . It was like a thick porridge, but liquified nicely
      with the second addition of water and the malt. It was difficult to
      get a solid free sample to measure gravity. Here are the full scale
      ratios for ease of reading:

      11# cornmeal
      4.5 gal water 6.5 pH
      1 tsp amylase to pre-malt for 20 min at 160F
      "simmer" 20 min
      Add 3.5 gal water
      2# malted barley
      Mash 90-120 min at 140-150F

      Then split into 6 jars, with different yeast and enzyme combinations.
      These are still fermenting on the grain. After fermentation, I will
      squeeze all the liquid from the grain and measure my true yield.

      ----------------------------------------------------

      Cracked Corn Experiment:
      Not so good extraction on this one (1041 OG). I'm looking for ideas
      to improve it because it was a breeze to handle. Anybody? Here's the
      full scale details:

      11# cracked corn
      5.0 gal water 6.0 pH
      1 tsp amylase to pre-malt for 20 min at 160F
      "simmer/boil" 30 min.
      Add 3.0 gal water
      2# malted barley
      Mash 90-120 min at 140-150F

      The pot almost boiled dry on this one. I guess the grain swelled up
      and absorbed all the moisture. I kept a lid on it. Not sure how much
      water boiled off. I HAD to stop the boil at 30 min, though I think it
      could have used another 15 min. or so. Like I said, not the extraction
      I was looking for, but I easily got a solid free sample for the
      hydrometer.

      So how can I approach a 1060 gravity with the cracked corn without
      boiling it?

      Thanks,

      Todd K.
    • toddk63
      Let me rephrase the last question: how can I approach a 1060 gravity with the cracked corn without
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 5, 2006
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        Let me rephrase the last question:

        how can I approach a 1060 gravity with the cracked corn without
        > boiling the final wort?

        >
        > So how can I approach a 1060 gravity with the cracked corn without
        > boiling it?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Todd K.
        >
      • donald holcombe
        Why would you add amylase to the grain then cook it to kill it then add malted barley to mash it ??? You are stumbling in the dark . Back up and read some of
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 7, 2006
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          Why would you add amylase to the grain then cook it to kill it then add malted barley to mash it ??? You are stumbling in the dark . Back up and read some of the info available through this group.  Corn meal gelitonizes around 130F and cracked corn needs 195 to break down. Stop wasting good corn and read some. This aint exactly New Science your working on.Of course you could keep Playing around and have a good old time. I dont boil anything and NEVER have a problem.I use cracked corn to feed chickens and cornmeal to make, Uhhh, muffins  Yeah Mufffins.130 proof muffins !  Dont waste the amylase put it in before the mash.

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: toddk63 <toddk63@...>
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 12:12:32 AM
          Subject: [Distillers] Re: Corn Mash Pilot Test Results

          Let me rephrase the last question:

          how can I approach a 1060 gravity with the cracked corn without

          > boiling the final wort?

          >
          > So how can I approach a 1060 gravity with the cracked corn without
          > boiling it?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Todd K.
          >



        • CHRIS STEVENS
          Litre of Vodka , liter of supermarket apple juice (organic) - hey presto Apple Jack. Tastes OK to me !!!!
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 8, 2006
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            Litre of Vodka , liter of supermarket apple juice (organic) -  hey presto Apple Jack.  Tastes OK to me !!!!
          • Link D'Antoni
            Geeze, I really thought that Apple Jack is apple wine frozen, then skim off the ice doubling the alc %. I tried that once. The faint apple wine taste was
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 8, 2006
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              Geeze, I really thought that Apple Jack is apple wine
              frozen, then skim off the ice doubling the alc %. I
              tried that once. The faint apple wine taste was
              really condensed into a strong taste afterwards. Got
              a good buzz too.

              Link

              --- CHRIS STEVENS <cshaws@...> wrote:

              > Litre of Vodka , liter of supermarket apple juice
              > (organic) - hey presto Apple Jack. Tastes OK to me
              !!!!





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            • toddk63
              The results of the fermentation test are in. If you recall, I made a batch of cormeal mash. OG 1059. Split in six jars. 1. Yeast-EC1118, Enzyme-none, TG
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 8, 2006
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                The results of the fermentation test are in. If you recall, I made a
                batch of cormeal mash. OG 1059. Split in six jars.

                1. Yeast-EC1118, Enzyme-none, TG 1014, taste/aroma-fruity

                2. Yeast-EC1118, Enzyme-1/2 tsp/gal amylase powder, TG 1012,
                taste/aroma-fruity.

                3. Yeast-EC1118, Enzyme-1 tsp/gal amylase powder, TG 1010,
                taste/aroma-fruity.

                4. Yeast-EC1118, Enzyme-3 tabs/5 gal Beano, TG 1010, taste/aroma-fruity.

                5. Yeast-Bread yeast, Enzyme-3 tabs/5 gal Beano, TG 1003,
                taste/aroma-banana

                6. Yeast-WLP028, Enzyme-3 tabs/5 gal Beano, TG 1003, taste/aroma-neutral

                Conclusions:
                1) EC1118 (S. bayanus) does not ferment heavier malt sugars well.
                Only works well on sucrose/glucose.
                2) Bread and ale yeaset (S. cerevisiae) works better on malt sugars.
                3) Enzyme additions improved fermentability
                4) 1tsp/gal of amylase has same effect as 3 tabs/5 gal Beano.
                5) Need to use ale yeast for proper flavor profile

                Todd K.
              • sea_strider
                ... Yes, indeedy ... ale yeast works darned good. I really like using Gert Strand s Whisky Yeast (got all that goody enzyme already in there) but I ve also
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 9, 2006
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                  > Conclusions:
                  > 1) EC1118 (S. bayanus) does not ferment heavier malt sugars well.
                  > Only works well on sucrose/glucose.
                  > 2) Bread and ale yeaset (S. cerevisiae) works better on malt sugars.
                  > 3) Enzyme additions improved fermentability
                  > 4) 1tsp/gal of amylase has same effect as 3 tabs/5 gal Beano.
                  > 5) Need to use ale yeast for proper flavor profile
                  >
                  > Todd K.

                  Yes, indeedy ... ale yeast works darned good. I really like using
                  Gert Strand's "Whisky Yeast" (got all that goody enzyme already in
                  there) but I've also had great success with Doric ale yeast and using
                  a bit o' the old Beano along with the malted barley I use in a
                  favorite recipe (I hold back at least 700g or so of the barley to add
                  later, for good conversion, in a typical 20L recipe). I think the
                  recipe I'm thinking of is about 60% corn (half of that as corn sugar,
                  half as flaked maize) with 25% malted barley and 15% flaked wheat.
                  Using either Strand's Whisky Yeast or the Doric Ale Yeast makes for a
                  very, very tasty bourbon if you're careful about your cuts in the
                  spirit run ... yum, yum, yum. Not bad at'tal. The ol' Beano is pretty
                  handy stuff, but of course you have to add it later so as not to kill
                  it with heat -- that should be obvious. But it works nicely! You can
                  get some really nice TGs using Beano in a recipe with Doric Ale yeast
                  (along with careful mashing).
                • Anthony Athawes
                  I can’t find Apple Jack in the dictionary so am not sure what it really is. I used to think it was another name for Cider, but we have now seen recipes from
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 9, 2006
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                    I can’t find Apple Jack in the dictionary so am not sure what it really is. I used to think it was another name for Cider, but we have now seen recipes from virtually 100% ethanol plus apple skins, to a 50/50 mix of Vodka and apple juice.

                     

                    Does Apple Jack have to be anything specific to qualify?

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of CHRIS STEVENS
                    Sent: 08 November 2006 17:57
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Distillers] Re: Corn Mash Pilot Test Results

                     

                    Litre of Vodka , liter of supermarket apple juice (organic) -  hey presto Apple Jack.  Tastes OK to me !!!!

                  • dcrawford@clarityconnect.com
                    ... Around here, applejack is hard cider that is left to freeze.Pour off the unfrozen portion, and drink. My grandpa s way: While you re pressing cider, sneak
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 9, 2006
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                      On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:00:16 -0000, you wrote:

                      >I can’t find Apple Jack in the dictionary so am not sure what it really is.
                      >I used to think it was another name for Cider, but we have now seen recipes
                      >from virtually 100% ethanol plus apple skins, to a 50/50 mix of Vodka and
                      >apple juice.
                      >
                      >Does Apple Jack have to be anything specific to qualify?

                      Around here, applejack is hard cider that is left to freeze.Pour off
                      the unfrozen portion, and drink.

                      My grandpa's way:
                      While you're pressing cider, sneak enough into a milkcan to 2/3 fill
                      it. Put it in the milkhouse and add the raisins and oranges you grab
                      from Grandma's pantry - while you're in there, grab a couple of the
                      molassas cookies. (She'll wonder where they went, but DO NOT TALK!!)
                      Forget about the cider until the frost starts coming regular (late
                      November around here). Move the (now hard) cider out back, behind the
                      milk house. (Keep an eye on it, so the boys don't get into it early).
                      After the hard freeze sets in, you'll have a can of ice with a slurry
                      of liquid that didn't freeze. That's the good stuff - just use the
                      ladle from the milkhouse. And remember two things:
                      1) deer hunting BEFORE applejack
                      2) mum's the word - Grandma is a Baptist.

                      DC
                    • dcrawford@clarityconnect.com
                      ... Wiki is your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack DC
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 9, 2006
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                        On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:00:16 -0000, you wrote:

                        >I can’t find Apple Jack in the dictionary so am not sure what it really is.
                        >I used to think it was another name for Cider, but we have now seen recipes
                        >from virtually 100% ethanol plus apple skins, to a 50/50 mix of Vodka and
                        >apple juice.

                        Wiki is your friend:

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack

                        DC
                      • Anthony Athawes
                        Well, I’m most grateful for information on Applejack (no longer split into two words). The definitive answer seems to be that it is only made from rough
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 9, 2006
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                          Well, I’m most grateful for information on Applejack (no longer split into two words). The definitive answer seems to be that it is only made from rough cider and is either freeze or steam distilled. This puts out of court any of the variations given in the last two days – but I wouldn’t mind betting they taste better!

                           

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of dcrawford@...
                          Sent: 09 November 2006 15:51
                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Distillers] Apple Jack (was: Re: Corn Mash Pilot Test Results)

                           

                          On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:00:16 -0000, you wrote:

                          >I can’t find Apple Jack in the dictionary so am not sure what it really is.
                          >I used to think it was another name for Cider, but we have now seen recipes
                          >from virtually 100% ethanol plus apple skins, to a 50/50 mix of Vodka and
                          >apple juice.

                          Wiki is your friend:

                          http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Applejack

                          DC

                        • Anthony Athawes
                          A most interesting story. Down in Somerset (Zummerzet) where the zider apples grow, one used to be able to get sweet cider or “rough”. I presume this is
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 9, 2006
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                            A most interesting story. Down in Somerset (Zummerzet) where the zider apples grow, one used to be able to get sweet cider or “rough”. I presume this is equivalent to your American “Hard” cider.

                             

                             It was reputed to make you slowly go daft after a period of years…..So much for fusils!

                             

                            Tony

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of dcrawford@...
                            Sent: 09 November 2006 15:48
                            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Distillers] Apple Jack (was: Re: Corn Mash Pilot Test Results)

                             

                            On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:00:16 -0000, you wrote:

                            >I can’t find Apple Jack in the dictionary so am not sure what it really is.
                            >I used to think it was another name for Cider, but we have now seen recipes
                            >from virtually 100% ethanol plus apple skins, to a 50/50 mix of Vodka and
                            >apple juice.
                            >
                            >Does Apple Jack have to be anything specific to qualify?

                            Around here, applejack is hard cider that is left to freeze.Pour off
                            the unfrozen portion, and drink.

                            My grandpa's way:
                            While you're pressing cider, sneak enough into a milkcan to 2/3 fill
                            it. Put it in the milkhouse and add the raisins and oranges you grab
                            from Grandma's pantry - while you're in there, grab a couple of the
                            molassas cookies. (She'll wonder where they went, but DO NOT TALK!!)
                            Forget about the cider until the frost starts coming regular (late
                            November around here). Move the (now hard) cider out back, behind the
                            milk house. (Keep an eye on it, so the boys don't get into it early).
                            After the hard freeze sets in, you'll have a can of ice with a slurry
                            of liquid that didn't freeze. That's the good stuff - just use the
                            ladle from the milkhouse. And remember two things:
                            1) deer hunting BEFORE applejack
                            2) mum's the word - Grandma is a Baptist.

                            DC

                          • donald holcombe
                            Apple Jack is hard cider that has been frozen and the Ice strained out to leave a higher % liquid. Freezing a beer wine or cider , freezes mostly the water
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 9, 2006
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                              Apple Jack is hard cider that has been frozen and the Ice strained out to leave a higher % liquid. Freezing a beer wine or cider , freezes mostly the water which can be seperated leaving the alcohol and some juice behind. This process is known as Jacking.

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Anthony Athawes <anthony.athawes@...>
                              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2006 10:00:16 AM
                              Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Corn Mash Pilot Test Results

                              I can’t find Apple Jack in the dictionary so am not sure what it really is. I used to think it was another name for Cider, but we have now seen recipes from virtually 100% ethanol plus apple skins, to a 50/50 mix of Vodka and apple juice.

                               

                              Does Apple Jack have to be anything specific to qualify?

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:Distillers@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of CHRIS STEVENS
                              Sent: 08 November 2006 17:57
                              To: Distillers@yahoogro ups.com
                              Subject: [Distillers] Re: Corn Mash Pilot Test Results

                               

                              Litre of Vodka , liter of supermarket apple juice (organic) -  hey presto Apple Jack.  Tastes OK to me !!!!



                            • Robert Thomas
                              Hi Anthony, sweet cider down Zummerzet way is your bog standard cider like bulmers (alcoholic, but filtered and usually dead). Rough is allowed to do what it
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 10, 2006
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                                Hi Anthony,
                                sweet cider down Zummerzet way is your bog standard cider like bulmers
                                (alcoholic, but filtered and usually dead). Rough is allowed to do what
                                it likes (often getting pretty acidic: not vinegar, lactic).
                                "hard cider" in the US means cider: cider is apple juice (I'm biting my
                                tongue as I type, don't want to get into a semantic argument!).
                                The reason for rough cider having a reputation for being bad for you
                                was twofold:
                                1. if can give you a bad stomach (wind/heartache/the Sh*ts)
                                2. if drunk from pewter vessels it will give you lead poisoning (the
                                acidity dissolves lead from the pewter): there was a case ca 10 years
                                ago of a yokel's family suing a pub landlord for allowing the deceased
                                to drink cider from "non regulation" vessels: even though the guy
                                brought it in himself.

                                cheers
                                Rob.
                                p.s. I thought us "apple jack" was what we over the pond call apple
                                brandy (or calvados if you can afford it).

                                --- Anthony Athawes <anthony.athawes@...> wrote:

                                > A most interesting story. Down in Somerset (Zummerzet) where the
                                > zider
                                > apples grow, one used to be able to get sweet cider or “rough”. I
                                > presume
                                > this is equivalent to your American “Hard” cider.
                                >
                                > It was reputed to make you slowly go daft after a period of
                                > years…..So much
                                > for fusils!
                                >
                                > Tony
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                                > Behalf Of dcrawford@...
                                > Sent: 09 November 2006 15:48
                                > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Distillers] Apple Jack (was: Re: Corn Mash Pilot Test
                                > Results)
                                >
                                > On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:00:16 -0000, you wrote:
                                >
                                > >I can’t find Apple Jack in the dictionary so am not sure what it
                                > really is.
                                > >I used to think it was another name for Cider, but we have now seen
                                > recipes
                                > >from virtually 100% ethanol plus apple skins, to a 50/50 mix of
                                > Vodka and
                                > >apple juice.
                                > >
                                > >Does Apple Jack have to be anything specific to qualify?
                                >
                                > Around here, applejack is hard cider that is left to freeze.Pour off
                                > the unfrozen portion, and drink.
                                >
                                > My grandpa's way:
                                > While you're pressing cider, sneak enough into a milkcan to 2/3 fill
                                > it. Put it in the milkhouse and add the raisins and oranges you grab
                                > from Grandma's pantry - while you're in there, grab a couple of the
                                > molassas cookies. (She'll wonder where they went, but DO NOT TALK!!)
                                > Forget about the cider until the frost starts coming regular (late
                                > November around here). Move the (now hard) cider out back, behind the
                                > milk house. (Keep an eye on it, so the boys don't get into it early).
                                > After the hard freeze sets in, you'll have a can of ice with a slurry
                                > of liquid that didn't freeze. That's the good stuff - just use the
                                > ladle from the milkhouse. And remember two things:
                                > 1) deer hunting BEFORE applejack
                                > 2) mum's the word - Grandma is a Baptist.
                                >
                                > DC
                                >
                                >


                                Cheers,
                                Rob.



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                              • dcrawford@clarityconnect.com
                                On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 06:08:58 -0800 (PST), you wrote: ... In general, in the US, cider is fresh, hard cider is fermented Cider (or cyder) is an
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 10, 2006
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                                  On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 06:08:58 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

                                  <snip>
                                  >"hard cider" in the US means cider: cider is apple juice (I'm biting my
                                  >tongue as I type, don't want to get into a semantic argument!).
                                  <snip>

                                  In general, in the US, cider is fresh, hard cider is fermented

                                  "Cider (or cyder) is an alcoholic beverage made primarily from the
                                  juices of specially grown varieties of apples. In most places in the
                                  world, the term refers to fermented apple juice, but the drink is
                                  known as hard cider in the United States, where the term "cider"
                                  almost exclusively refers to apple cider, a fresh, minimally processed
                                  variety of apple juice. "

                                  -quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcoholic_beverages

                                  DC
                                • Michael
                                  I agree that there is no specific definition of Apple Jack I have seen the term used for a number of different drinks. These include: Apple wine Apple wine
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 10, 2006
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                                    I agree that there is no specific definition of "Apple Jack"  I have seen the term used for a number of different drinks. These include:
                                       Apple wine
                                       Apple wine fortifed with vodka
                                       Apple juice (sweet cider) with various percentages of vodka (basically a mixed drink)
                                       Fermented apple juice (crudely made apple wine or "hard cider")
                                       Apple wine distilled in a pot still or retort still to make apple brandy
                                       Apple wine ice concentrated  to approximately 20-30% alcohol
                                    When I posted my recipe for Apple Jack, I stated that  was posting a recipe for apple flavored spirit. I also stated that I  had never tasted apple brandy, but if I were to imagine what "Apple Jack" SHOULD taste like, it would be a fairly strongly flavored spirit.

                                    If I were to define the various products, I would define as follows: Remenber I am in the USA 
                                       Sweet Cider = fresh unfermented apple juice
                                       Hard cider =  fermented apple juice. 3-12% etoh
                                       Apple wine = Hard cider in a fancy bottle. 12-15% etoh (sometimes used for apple flavored grape wine)
                                       Apple Brandy = Distilled from apple wine or hard cider using a retort or pot still. Would also include ice concentrated wine. 25-35% etoh
                                       Fortified apple wine = apple wine fortified with neutral spirits. 25-35% etoh
                                       Apple flavored spirits = neutral spirits flavored with apples in some fashion such as decoction, or concentrate.  Apple flavored vodka 40-65% etoh
                                      Apple Jack = apple brandy, fortified wine, flavored spirits or ice concentrated wine. At least 25% etoh to differentiate from hard cider.

                                    Just my opinion. Feel free to add yours!!

                                     

                                     
                                      
                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Athawes" <anthony.athawes@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I can't find Apple Jack in the dictionary so am not sure what it really is.
                                    > I used to think it was another name for Cider, but we have now seen recipes
                                    > from virtually 100% ethanol plus apple skins, to a 50/50 mix of Vodka and
                                    > apple juice.
                                    >
                                    > Does Apple Jack have to be anything specific to qualify?
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                                    > Behalf Of CHRIS STEVENS
                                    > Sent: 08 November 2006 17:57
                                    > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Corn Mash Pilot Test Results
                                    >
                                    > Litre of Vodka , liter of supermarket apple juice (organic) - hey presto
                                    > Apple Jack. Tastes OK to me !!!!
                                    >
                                  • Harry
                                    ... cider. ... Applejack is fermented apple juice that has been through the process of Jacking . This process requires the fermented juice to be frozen by
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Nov 10, 2006
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                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <hexenwolfe@...> wrote:

                                      > Apple Jack = apple brandy, fortified wine, flavored spirits or ice
                                      > concentrated wine. At least 25% etoh to differentiate from hard
                                      cider.
                                      >
                                      > Just my opinion. Feel free to add yours!!


                                      Applejack is fermented apple juice that has been through the process
                                      of "Jacking".

                                      This process requires the fermented juice to be frozen by some means,
                                      like leaving it out in winter (traditional) or putting it in a freezer
                                      (modern). In both cases you get a somewhat solid block of ice with a
                                      slushy semi-liquid core of liquid. This liquid is much higher in
                                      alcohol than the parent fermented juice. Remember alcohol doesn't
                                      freeze at these temps, only the water does.

                                      Break through the ice into the slush core, drain it into another
                                      container. This is the "applejack". The method is sometimes
                                      called "Freeze Distillation". It's crude in that you can't remove
                                      heads & tails like with a heated still. So hangovers are part of the
                                      equation.

                                      Slainte!
                                      regards Harry
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