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What proof is preservative?

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  • richardt2005
    One of the many hats I wear is doing disaster planning for my company. We ve been talking about water storage - adding a few drops of bleach to a gallon of
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 2, 2006
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      One of the many hats I wear is doing disaster planning for my
      company. We've been talking about water storage - adding a few drops
      of bleach to a gallon of water before putting it on the shelf,
      replacing it every couple of months, etc.

      It occurred to me that alcohol is a terrific preservative. Would 1 or
      2% ABV water keep on the shelf? Or would the concentration have to be
      higher?
    • Robert Thomas
      Hi Richard, you ll need much higher %ages and preferably acidic. As an analogy, think how easy beer turns to vinegar, and how much more difficult it is to have
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 2, 2006
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        Hi Richard,
        you'll need much higher %ages and preferably acidic. As an analogy,
        think how easy beer turns to vinegar, and how much more difficult it is
        to have 12% wine go off (it still does though). Alcohol as a sterilant
        swab is usually ca 50% (higher is actually less effective, for reasons
        I won't go into).
        I suppose you are thinking of storing largish quantities, otherwise
        distillation (or even boiling - preferably 2 times with 3 days between
        to kill spores) would be good.
        cheers
        Rob.

        --- richardt2005 <richardt2005@...> wrote:

        > One of the many hats I wear is doing disaster planning for my
        > company. We've been talking about water storage - adding a few drops
        >
        > of bleach to a gallon of water before putting it on the shelf,
        > replacing it every couple of months, etc.
        >
        > It occurred to me that alcohol is a terrific preservative. Would 1
        > or
        > 2% ABV water keep on the shelf? Or would the concentration have to
        > be
        > higher?
        >
        >
        >


        Cheers,
        Rob.



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      • Harry
        ... it is ... sterilant ... reasons ... between ... 16%+ abv is the sterility cutoff point vintners advocate in wines. This prevents most (not all) microbes.
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 3, 2006
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          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Richard,
          > you'll need much higher %ages and preferably acidic. As an analogy,
          > think how easy beer turns to vinegar, and how much more difficult
          it is
          > to have 12% wine go off (it still does though). Alcohol as a
          sterilant
          > swab is usually ca 50% (higher is actually less effective, for
          reasons
          > I won't go into).
          > I suppose you are thinking of storing largish quantities, otherwise
          > distillation (or even boiling - preferably 2 times with 3 days
          between
          > to kill spores) would be good.
          > cheers
          > Rob.


          16%+ abv is the sterility cutoff point vintners advocate in wines.
          This prevents most (not all) microbes. For short term (several
          months) it's fine. For long term, think 20%+. This is one of the
          main reasons that wine was consumed as a hydrating liquid in
          preference to water in the dark ages, as it was known that strong
          wine could withstand spoilage by bacteria. However the logic was
          flawed.

          Bubonic plague (black death) was thought at the time to be spread by
          rats pissing in the water supply. More recent investigation has
          proven that it is spread mostly by infected fleas ravenously sucking
          blood from host animals, notably rats, but also dogs, cats, deer,
          and human lice. Rats urine spreads a different (but still very
          nasty) disease called 'leptospirosis'.

          Slainte!
          regards Harry
        • gff_stwrt
          ... snip . Alcohol as a sterilant swab is usually ca 50% (higher is actually less effective, for reasons I won t go into). big snip ... In our food business
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 3, 2006
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            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@...>
            wrote:
            >
            snip

            . Alcohol as a sterilant swab is usually ca 50% (higher is actually
            less effective, for reasons I won't go into).

            big snip
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Rob.
            >
            > Hi, Rob, hi folks,

            In our food business careful handwashing is essential, and we
            currently use antibacterial soap solutions.

            > A fairly recent innovation in hospitals is alcohol based (not sure
            if it is used as a 'hand-rub' or a soap, maybe either).

            I had considered using alcohol in a handwashing solution, possibly
            mixed with the glycerine that is a by-product of my son's bio-diesel
            production.

            Would a mixture giving 50% or a bit higher alcohol by volume be
            effective? Should other ingredients be used as well, or instead of
            the glycerine?

            Given that methanol is poisonous, would it be OK to use heads
            and/or tails in such a product?

            If this works it will be a lot cheaper than buying special soap and
            might be better too.

            Regards,

            The Baker
            >
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          • Robert Thomas
            Hi TB, By swabs I meant for cleaning surfaces etc, so your point about glyceline/ol is important: you will end up with dermatitis otherwise, if you re not
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 3, 2006
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              Hi TB,
              By swabs I meant for cleaning surfaces etc, so your point about
              glyceline/ol is important: you will end up with dermatitis otherwise,
              if you're not lucky.
              I need to check my data (micro book has walked off the shelf). Ethanol
              at ca 50-60% is optimal (relying on memory here) because:
              1. it evaporates quickly
              2. higher % dries the bug cell membrane, but doesn't enter the cell to
              kill it. just add water and you have reconstituted bugs!

              phenol is often added to hand wash (if it smells horrible, you've got
              phenol in it). Short of mercury based sterilants (where's my hat??)
              phenol is among the best biocides.

              I wouldn't use meths as this is absorbed through the skin: not a
              problem for the occasional spillage, but regular hand washing with it
              is not clever! Plus, higher alcohols are more effective (hence the
              common use of isopropanol).

              Now, where's that book gone.....
              cheers
              rob.

              --- gff_stwrt <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:

              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > snip
              >
              > . Alcohol as a sterilant swab is usually ca 50% (higher is actually
              > less effective, for reasons I won't go into).
              >
              > big snip
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > > Rob.
              > >
              > > Hi, Rob, hi folks,
              >
              > In our food business careful handwashing is essential, and we
              > currently use antibacterial soap solutions.
              >
              > > A fairly recent innovation in hospitals is alcohol based (not sure
              > if it is used as a 'hand-rub' or a soap, maybe either).
              >
              > I had considered using alcohol in a handwashing solution, possibly
              > mixed with the glycerine that is a by-product of my son's bio-diesel
              > production.
              >
              > Would a mixture giving 50% or a bit higher alcohol by volume be
              > effective? Should other ingredients be used as well, or instead of
              > the glycerine?
              >
              > Given that methanol is poisonous, would it be OK to use heads
              > and/or tails in such a product?
              >
              > If this works it will be a lot cheaper than buying special soap and
              >
              > might be better too.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > The Baker
              > >
              >
              ______________________________________________________________________
              > ______________
              > > Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone
              >
              > call rates
              > > (http://voice.yahoo.com)
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              Cheers,
              Rob.



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            • Robert Hubble
              Harry, for Pete s sake, don t DISSUADE him! If you decide on 25% as a safe concentration, or even 43%, when whatever disaster they are afraid of strikes, it ll
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 9, 2006
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                Harry, for Pete's sake, don't DISSUADE him!

                If you decide on 25% as a safe concentration, or even 43%, when whatever
                disaster they are afraid of strikes, it'll be the happiest damned disaster
                on record.

                You're kinda turning into a spoil-sport.

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                >From: "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...>
                >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [Distillers] Re: What proof is preservative?
                >Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 09:03:35 -0000
                >
                >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@...>
                >wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Richard,
                > > you'll need much higher %ages and preferably acidic. As an analogy,
                > > think how easy beer turns to vinegar, and how much more difficult
                >it is
                > > to have 12% wine go off (it still does though). Alcohol as a
                >sterilant
                > > swab is usually ca 50% (higher is actually less effective, for
                >reasons
                > > I won't go into).
                > > I suppose you are thinking of storing largish quantities, otherwise
                > > distillation (or even boiling - preferably 2 times with 3 days
                >between
                > > to kill spores) would be good.
                > > cheers
                > > Rob.
                >
                >
                >16%+ abv is the sterility cutoff point vintners advocate in wines.
                >This prevents most (not all) microbes. For short term (several
                >months) it's fine. For long term, think 20%+. This is one of the
                >main reasons that wine was consumed as a hydrating liquid in
                >preference to water in the dark ages, as it was known that strong
                >wine could withstand spoilage by bacteria. However the logic was
                >flawed.
                >
                >Bubonic plague (black death) was thought at the time to be spread by
                >rats pissing in the water supply. More recent investigation has
                >proven that it is spread mostly by infected fleas ravenously sucking
                >blood from host animals, notably rats, but also dogs, cats, deer,
                >and human lice. Rats urine spreads a different (but still very
                >nasty) disease called 'leptospirosis'.
                >
                >Slainte!
                >regards Harry
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

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