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RE: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts

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  • Anthony Athawes
    I m right at the beginning of the trail of distillation, but it seems obvious that one needs to control the temp of the boil to within fairly close limits by
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1 7:33 AM
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      I'm right at the beginning of the trail of distillation, but it seems
      obvious that one needs to control the temp of the boil to within fairly
      close limits by increasing or reducing the output of the electric element.
      (Or if you used gas, turning it up or down).

      The alternative is to switch it on and off whilst reading the thermometer
      at the top of the column - rather laborious don't you think?!

      I don't think PV/T comes into it as the reflux column is open at the top.
      Use of Watts is immaterial - the right temp. is.

      Tony

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
      Behalf Of diskmaster23
      Sent: 01 August 2006 14:18
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts

      I have a question for all of you regarding boiling point and
      controlling temperature of the boiler. What is the reason why you
      would be controlling the boiler? Would it because you don't want to
      not apply more btu's or watt's than needed?

      Because you guys have always told me that you cannot control the
      boiling point (without pressure) (which is true of course). If I am
      wrong in this, what would be the reason in controlling it?

      Disk

      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Athawes"
      <Anthony.Athawes@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'd be interested if anyone has put together the power controller
      provided
      > on the web, as I'm in the middle of putting one together.
      >
      > There are a few parts, which cost about £1.50, plus a heat sink, box and
      > plugs.
      >
      > Additional to the design, it is recommended putting in a 1/2W 47K
      resistor,
      > after the variable resistor, to reduce the risk of totally turning
      it to the
      > straight through position.
      >
      > Another precaution is that the Triac may be an earthed version to
      the heat
      > sink, and so should be insulated - as well as treating it with respect.
      >
      > I understand that Sustronics do a professional controller for around
      £30. It
      > is well spoken of if you want to control the temperature of your
      still, and
      > no doubt contains some features not included in our basic design.
      I'd love
      > to have a circuit diagram and a picture if anyone has had the
      temerity to
      > have the back off!
      >
      > Tony
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >







      Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
      FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Cary Rhodes
      We whip this horse fairly regularly. For a more detailed explanation, search the archives. Heat input and temperature are two different things. Temperature is
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1 9:55 AM
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        We whip this horse fairly regularly. For a more detailed
        explanation, search the archives.

        Heat input and temperature are two different things.

        Temperature is a measure of the amount of heat, kinda.

        Power is measured in watts in our situation. The boiler controller
        will vary the power to the boiler. This will control how fast the
        product boils and not at what temperature the product boils.

        The more vapor you produce, the more vapor you have to condensate.

        The more vapor you produce, the faster it has to pass thru the
        column. The faster the vapor, the less reflux can take place.
        Therefore, the less quality.

        in a nutshell

        cary


















        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "diskmaster23" <diskmaster23@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I have a question for all of you regarding boiling point and
        > controlling temperature of the boiler. What is the reason why you
        > would be controlling the boiler? Would it because you don't want to
        > not apply more btu's or watt's than needed?
        >
        > Because you guys have always told me that you cannot control the
        > boiling point (without pressure) (which is true of course). If I am
        > wrong in this, what would be the reason in controlling it?
        >
        > Disk
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Athawes"
        > <Anthony.Athawes@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I'd be interested if anyone has put together the power controller
        > provided
        > > on the web, as I'm in the middle of putting one together.
        > >
        > > There are a few parts, which cost about £1.50, plus a heat sink,
        box and
        > > plugs.
        > >
        > > Additional to the design, it is recommended putting in a 1/2W 47K
        > resistor,
        > > after the variable resistor, to reduce the risk of totally
        turning
        > it to the
        > > straight through position.
        > >
        > > Another precaution is that the Triac may be an earthed version to
        > the heat
        > > sink, and so should be insulated - as well as treating it with
        respect.
        > >
        > > I understand that Sustronics do a professional controller for
        around
        > £30. It
        > > is well spoken of if you want to control the temperature of your
        > still, and
        > > no doubt contains some features not included in our basic design.
        > I'd love
        > > to have a circuit diagram and a picture if anyone has had the
        > temerity to
        > > have the back off!
        > >
        > > Tony
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • Trid
        ... To parrot what Cary said...and to put it in the context of your question, the control of the boiler that you want is how much energy you re putting into
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1 3:50 PM
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          --- diskmaster23 <diskmaster23@...> wrote:

          > I have a question for all of you regarding boiling point and
          > controlling temperature of the boiler. What is the reason why you
          > would be controlling the boiler? Would it because you don't want to
          > not apply more btu's or watt's than needed?

          To parrot what Cary said...and to put it in the context of your question, the
          control of the boiler that you want is how much energy you're putting into it.
          You don't want to exceed the amount of energy you can take out of it when you
          condense (or reflux, as appropriate).

          > Because you guys have always told me that you cannot control the
          > boiling point (without pressure) (which is true of course). If I am
          > wrong in this, what would be the reason in controlling it?

          You're not. You're controlling the RATE at which it boils. Once at boiling,
          any excess energy beyound that which maintains the boil makes it boil HARDER.
          The harder the boil, the faster the vapors leave, and the more work the reflux
          coil/condenser have to do to do their thing.

          Make any sense?
          Trid
        • Trid
          ... First and foremost...you cannot, nor will anyone, ever, control the temperature of the boil. You control the RATE...how hard it boils. ... Switching the
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1 3:57 PM
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            --- Anthony Athawes <Anthony.Athawes@...> wrote:

            > I'm right at the beginning of the trail of distillation, but it seems
            > obvious that one needs to control the temp of the boil to within fairly
            > close limits by increasing or reducing the output of the electric element.
            > (Or if you used gas, turning it up or down).

            First and foremost...you cannot, nor will anyone, ever, control the
            "temperature" of the boil. You control the RATE...how hard it boils.

            > The alternative is to switch it on and off whilst reading the thermometer
            > at the top of the column - rather laborious don't you think?!

            Switching the heating element on and off is what an electric stove's dial does,
            automatically. This will suffice for running a pot still, but for reflux, it
            never allows you to stabilize and achieve proper reflux. That's why power
            controllers which adjust the amount of power to the heating element while
            constantly energized is the preferred method of variable electric heat input.
            It allows finer tuning of the vapor rate than simply using a lower wattage
            element always on.

            > I don't think PV/T comes into it as the reflux column is open at the top.
            > Use of Watts is immaterial - the right temp. is.

            The temperature will just happen...use of watts is quite crucial. Too many and
            your boil is too fast and your reflux is inefficient and you get less
            separation. Too few and you either stop boiling, or the takeoff rate is minute
            (translated, running aaaaaaaallllllllllllllll day long). Trust me, it's all
            about the watts/btus.

            Trid
            -the horse needeed another one :)
          • Larry
            ... You can t control the temp of the boil. That is determined by the boiling point of the liquid being heated, and your altitude above sea level. What you do
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 1 4:28 PM
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              At 09:33 AM 08/01/2006, you wrote:

              >I'm right at the beginning of the trail of distillation, but it seems
              >obvious that one needs to control the temp of the boil to within fairly
              >close limits by increasing or reducing the output of the electric element.
              >(Or if you used gas, turning it up or down).
              >
              >The alternative is to switch it on and off whilst reading the thermometer
              >at the top of the column - rather laborious don't you think?!

              You can't control the temp of the boil. That is determined by the boiling
              point of the liquid being heated, and your altitude above sea level.

              What you do is control the RATE of the boil.

              Water boils at 212F. If you throw it on an element that is 1500 degrees, it
              will never go above 212, though whatever amount of it actually touches the
              1500-degree source will reach 212 VERY quickly, as it flashes to steam.

              Since ethanol boils at 170, and water boils at 212, the steam from pure
              ethanol will never be above 170.

              Your wash is a mixture of water and various alcohols.

              If it was pure ethanol, head-temperature would rise to 170 and never vary,
              until the boiler ran dry and started throwing nothing but hot air up the
              column.

              However, since there are several different alcohols, and water in your
              wash, the head temp will vary with what is actually being boiled... the
              thermometer is reading the temp of whatever steam is reaching it.

              As the wash gets closer to being pure water, it's temp (and the steam it
              produces) will also increase to the boiling point of pure water.

              That's how you can tell when you're getting close to having boiled all the
              alcohol out of the wash by watching your head temperature.

              If your head temp reaches 212F, you are making pure distilled water,
              diluting whatever alcohol you may have already collected, just as if you'd
              poured it in from a water bottle.
            • Link D'Antoni
              Trid/Alias, Cycling on and off with pot still is no fun at all. My kitchen stove is electric. The cycling on and off drove---me---crazy! I seperate (make a
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 1 5:53 PM
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                Trid/Alias,

                Cycling on and off with pot still is no fun at all.
                My kitchen stove is electric. The cycling on and off
                drove---me---crazy! I seperate (make a cut) every 150
                ml. The percent condensed varied depending on the
                cycle. I constantly worried about boil over as well.
                I went to natural and propane for both pot and reflux.


                Link


                --- Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:

                > --- Anthony Athawes <Anthony.Athawes@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > I'm right at the beginning of the trail of
                > distillation, but it seems
                > > obvious that one needs to control the temp of the
                > boil to within fairly
                > > close limits by increasing or reducing the output
                > of the electric element.
                > > (Or if you used gas, turning it up or down).
                >
                > First and foremost...you cannot, nor will anyone,
                > ever, control the
                > "temperature" of the boil. You control the
                > RATE...how hard it boils.
                >
                > > The alternative is to switch it on and off whilst
                > reading the thermometer
                > > at the top of the column - rather laborious don't
                > you think?!
                >
                > Switching the heating element on and off is what an
                > electric stove's dial does,
                > automatically. This will suffice for running a pot
                > still, but for reflux, it
                > never allows you to stabilize and achieve proper
                > reflux. That's why power
                > controllers which adjust the amount of power to the
                > heating element while
                > constantly energized is the preferred method of
                > variable electric heat input.
                > It allows finer tuning of the vapor rate than simply
                > using a lower wattage
                > element always on.
                >
                > > I don't think PV/T comes into it as the reflux
                > column is open at the top.
                > > Use of Watts is immaterial - the right temp. is.
                >
                > The temperature will just happen...use of watts is
                > quite crucial. Too many and
                > your boil is too fast and your reflux is inefficient
                > and you get less
                > separation. Too few and you either stop boiling, or
                > the takeoff rate is minute
                > (translated, running aaaaaaaallllllllllllllll day
                > long). Trust me, it's all
                > about the watts/btus.
                >
                > Trid
                > -the horse needeed another one :)
                >


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              • Larry
                ... Man, cycling with a reflux still is just as bad, if not worse. My boiler came from Brewhaus.com, along with a free aluminum plate to go between the kettle
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 1 7:09 PM
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                  At 07:53 PM 08/01/2006, you wrote:

                  >Trid/Alias,
                  >
                  >Cycling on and off with pot still is no fun at all.

                  Man, cycling with a reflux still is just as bad, if not worse.

                  My boiler came from Brewhaus.com, along with a free aluminum plate to go
                  between the kettle and the burner.

                  That helps some, as the 1/4" thick aluminum acts as a buffer, passing on
                  retained heat while the element is cycled off.

                  However, it imparts heat to the bottom of the boiler AND to the hotplate
                  heating element, which I suspect makes the hotplate stay cycled off longer,
                  allowing the plate and boiler to both cool anyway...

                  I've gone to propane, myself.


                  Barefoot Larry
                  The Tradition String Band
                  www.traditionmusic.com



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Brendan Keith
                  The cycling is controlled entirely within the stove control. Lingering temperature of the element, due to a hot pot or an aluminum plate, has no effect. --
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 1 7:58 PM
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                    The cycling is controlled entirely within the stove control. Lingering
                    temperature of the element, due to a hot pot or an aluminum plate, has no
                    effect.


                    --
                    Brendan Keith
                    bkeith@...

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Larry
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:10 PM
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts


                    At 07:53 PM 08/01/2006, you wrote:

                    >Trid/Alias,
                    >
                    >Cycling on and off with pot still is no fun at all.

                    ...

                    That helps some, as the 1/4" thick aluminum acts as a buffer, passing on
                    retained heat while the element is cycled off.

                    However, it imparts heat to the bottom of the boiler AND to the hotplate
                    heating element, which I suspect makes the hotplate stay cycled off longer,
                    allowing the plate and boiler to both cool anyway...

                    I've gone to propane, myself.

                    Barefoot Larry
                    The Tradition String Band
                    www.traditionmusic.com
                  • daver01a
                    OK - One question :: Ias your Reflux Still the tone or two condensor model... I have a reflux column with three condensors... My column uses a boiler (pot) to
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 1 8:21 PM
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                      OK - One question :: Ias your Reflux Still the tone or two condensor
                      model...
                      I have a reflux column with three condensors...
                      My column uses a boiler (pot) to generate the steam at the bottom of
                      the column (just like a pot still)... But I have a feed line to add
                      depleted water (Yes I said Water)...
                      My Beer Mash feed is right above the stripper column (just before the
                      first condensor)....
                      The bottom condensor (1 st condensor) is right above the stripper
                      column...
                      Then I have the reflux column .....
                      Then I have a 2nd condensor sitting on top of the reflux column - and
                      just before the condensation dome (collector)...
                      I have a feed tube takung off from the condensation dome that feeds
                      into the final alcohol condensor (my 3rd condensor)..
                      Then I have a set of 3-way ball valves that allow me to feed the
                      product into a hydrometed cup for on the spot proof
                      testing/verification....
                      I'm only getting 2.8 Gallons per minute at 94% ...
                      Haven't tried grain yet - but yard grass mash seems to be working fine
                      for me...
                      Too much detail about the mash concoction to go into here...
                      But I believe you can control either an electric powered or gas
                      powered still with at moderating condensor (like my 1st condensor)...
                      Or if using electric elements - a dryer thermostat (those varistors
                      they put on electric dryer drums)... All you have to do is place a
                      semi metalic shim and practice with the thickness to cause the
                      thermostat to kick out at your target temp...
                      .....
                      Sorry I got long wnded - but thought I'd throw my two cents (or 2 1/2)
                      in...
                      I'll put my still design on one of my web sites and include a link
                      later - but it really isn't that revolutionary..
                      Thanks..
                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Larry <larry@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > At 07:53 PM 08/01/2006, you wrote:
                      >
                      > >Trid/Alias,
                      > >
                      > >Cycling on and off with pot still is no fun at all.
                      >
                      > Man, cycling with a reflux still is just as bad, if not worse.
                      >
                      > My boiler came from Brewhaus.com, along with a free aluminum plate
                      to go
                      > between the kettle and the burner.
                      >
                      > That helps some, as the 1/4" thick aluminum acts as a buffer,
                      passing on
                      > retained heat while the element is cycled off.
                      >
                      > However, it imparts heat to the bottom of the boiler AND to the
                      hotplate
                      > heating element, which I suspect makes the hotplate stay cycled off
                      longer,
                      > allowing the plate and boiler to both cool anyway...
                      >
                      > I've gone to propane, myself.
                      >
                      >
                      > Barefoot Larry
                      > The Tradition String Band
                      > www.traditionmusic.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • diskmaster23
                      Makes perfect sense. ... to ... question, the ... putting into it. ... it when you ... am ... at boiling, ... boil HARDER. ... work the reflux
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 2 5:35 AM
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                        Makes perfect sense.

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- diskmaster23 <diskmaster23@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > I have a question for all of you regarding boiling point and
                        > > controlling temperature of the boiler. What is the reason why you
                        > > would be controlling the boiler? Would it because you don't want
                        to
                        > > not apply more btu's or watt's than needed?
                        >
                        > To parrot what Cary said...and to put it in the context of your
                        question, the
                        > control of the boiler that you want is how much energy you're
                        putting into it.
                        > You don't want to exceed the amount of energy you can take out of
                        it when you
                        > condense (or reflux, as appropriate).
                        >
                        > > Because you guys have always told me that you cannot control the
                        > > boiling point (without pressure) (which is true of course). If I
                        am
                        > > wrong in this, what would be the reason in controlling it?
                        >
                        > You're not. You're controlling the RATE at which it boils. Once
                        at boiling,
                        > any excess energy beyound that which maintains the boil makes it
                        boil HARDER.
                        > The harder the boil, the faster the vapors leave, and the more
                        work the reflux
                        > coil/condenser have to do to do their thing.
                        >
                        > Make any sense?
                        > Trid
                        >
                      • Anthony Athawes
                        Larry, Thank you very much for taking this business up. Well, it s rather like your head bone s connected to your neck bone......I d sure like to see a picture
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 2 6:08 AM
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                          Larry,

                          Thank you very much for taking this business up.

                          Well, it's rather like your head bone's connected to your neck bone......I'd
                          sure like to see a picture to see what's going on.

                          Thank goodness we are back on track though!

                          You get 2.8 gals /minute? They usually talk in terms of 3 drips a second.
                          They must be the size of hen's eggs!

                          My nearly completed still is the "World Class Reflux Still". Why it is so
                          named I am still to determine or somebody to tell me? It was the one on the
                          web. Basically it cost around £50 plus a certain amount of hardware I had in
                          stock from brewing beer from grain.

                          What the devil is Yard Grass? I raised a question about using Sugar Beet
                          which sounds a lot more likely than grass - but it was poorly spoken of.

                          The Varistors sound interesting . Any more info? Is it a domestic dryer or
                          one in the hairdressers? Have tried a Variac which started to smoke, and
                          looked at the Simmerstats they put in electric ovens, but they only turn the
                          current on and off at varying intervals and are likely to be difficult to
                          manage

                          Thank you very much again , Larry. It's good to see other peoples
                          experience.

                          Tony.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                          Behalf Of daver01a
                          Sent: 02 August 2006 04:22
                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts

                          OK - One question :: Ias your Reflux Still the tone or two condensor
                          model...
                          I have a reflux column with three condensors...
                          My column uses a boiler (pot) to generate the steam at the bottom of
                          the column (just like a pot still)... But I have a feed line to add
                          depleted water (Yes I said Water)...
                          My Beer Mash feed is right above the stripper column (just before the
                          first condensor)....
                          The bottom condensor (1 st condensor) is right above the stripper
                          column...
                          Then I have the reflux column .....
                          Then I have a 2nd condensor sitting on top of the reflux column - and
                          just before the condensation dome (collector)...
                          I have a feed tube takung off from the condensation dome that feeds
                          into the final alcohol condensor (my 3rd condensor)..
                          Then I have a set of 3-way ball valves that allow me to feed the
                          product into a hydrometed cup for on the spot proof
                          testing/verification....
                          I'm only getting 2.8 Gallons per minute at 94% ...
                          Haven't tried grain yet - but yard grass mash seems to be working fine
                          for me...
                          Too much detail about the mash concoction to go into here...
                          But I believe you can control either an electric powered or gas
                          powered still with at moderating condensor (like my 1st condensor)...
                          Or if using electric elements - a dryer thermostat (those varistors
                          they put on electric dryer drums)... All you have to do is place a
                          semi metalic shim and practice with the thickness to cause the
                          thermostat to kick out at your target temp...
                          .....
                          Sorry I got long wnded - but thought I'd throw my two cents (or 2 1/2)
                          in...
                          I'll put my still design on one of my web sites and include a link
                          later - but it really isn't that revolutionary..
                          Thanks..
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Larry <larry@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > At 07:53 PM 08/01/2006, you wrote:
                          >
                          > >Trid/Alias,
                          > >
                          > >Cycling on and off with pot still is no fun at all.
                          >
                          > Man, cycling with a reflux still is just as bad, if not worse.
                          >
                          > My boiler came from Brewhaus.com, along with a free aluminum plate
                          to go
                          > between the kettle and the burner.
                          >
                          > That helps some, as the 1/4" thick aluminum acts as a buffer,
                          passing on
                          > retained heat while the element is cycled off.
                          >
                          > However, it imparts heat to the bottom of the boiler AND to the
                          hotplate
                          > heating element, which I suspect makes the hotplate stay cycled off
                          longer,
                          > allowing the plate and boiler to both cool anyway...
                          >
                          > I've gone to propane, myself.
                          >
                          >
                          > Barefoot Larry
                          > The Tradition String Band
                          > www.traditionmusic.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >










                          Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                          FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Anthony Athawes
                          Yes, I know this from school, PV/T etc. But I think most ordinary stills operate to atmosphere, in which case the heat required to maintain a given temp. would
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 2 6:15 AM
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                            Yes, I know this from school, PV/T etc. But I think most ordinary stills
                            operate to atmosphere, in which case the heat required to maintain a given
                            temp. would gradually get less.

                            My interest is focused on electrical controllers though.

                            Tony

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                            Behalf Of diskmaster23
                            Sent: 02 August 2006 13:35
                            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts

                            Makes perfect sense.

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Trid <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- diskmaster23 <diskmaster23@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > I have a question for all of you regarding boiling point and
                            > > controlling temperature of the boiler. What is the reason why you
                            > > would be controlling the boiler? Would it because you don't want
                            to
                            > > not apply more btu's or watt's than needed?
                            >
                            > To parrot what Cary said...and to put it in the context of your
                            question, the
                            > control of the boiler that you want is how much energy you're
                            putting into it.
                            > You don't want to exceed the amount of energy you can take out of
                            it when you
                            > condense (or reflux, as appropriate).
                            >
                            > > Because you guys have always told me that you cannot control the
                            > > boiling point (without pressure) (which is true of course). If I
                            am
                            > > wrong in this, what would be the reason in controlling it?
                            >
                            > You're not. You're controlling the RATE at which it boils. Once
                            at boiling,
                            > any excess energy beyound that which maintains the boil makes it
                            boil HARDER.
                            > The harder the boil, the faster the vapors leave, and the more
                            work the reflux
                            > coil/condenser have to do to do their thing.
                            >
                            > Make any sense?
                            > Trid
                            >






                            Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                            FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • daver01a
                            Yard grass is the grass clippings you get from your yard when you mow the grass... We use an acid flash to break the lignin binders at the cellular level...
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 2 9:36 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yard grass is the grass clippings you get from your yard when you mow
                              the grass...
                              We use an acid flash to break the lignin binders at the cellular level...
                              Then after rinse we treat the brew with cellulase enzymes... the
                              result is fermentable sugar proteins...
                              From here on it is just like any other distillation...
                              It called cellular conversion - the enzymes are availiable
                              commercially and are now cheap enough for practical use...
                              Since we have 1,000;s of miles of golf coarses here in Phoenix,
                              Arizona - we thought we'd put the 140 tons of monthly clippings to
                              good use...
                              But we use our ethanol to make E-85 gas ( so I'l just have to start
                              another thread - because I do realize that my comments are off track -
                              I apologize)....
                              Take care.
                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Athawes"
                              <Anthony.Athawes@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Larry,
                              >
                              > Thank you very much for taking this business up.
                              >
                              > Well, it's rather like your head bone's connected to your neck
                              bone......I'd
                              > sure like to see a picture to see what's going on.
                              >
                              > Thank goodness we are back on track though!
                              >
                              > You get 2.8 gals /minute? They usually talk in terms of 3 drips a
                              second.
                              > They must be the size of hen's eggs!
                              >
                              > My nearly completed still is the "World Class Reflux Still". Why it
                              is so
                              > named I am still to determine or somebody to tell me? It was the one
                              on the
                              > web. Basically it cost around £50 plus a certain amount of hardware
                              I had in
                              > stock from brewing beer from grain.
                              >
                              > What the devil is Yard Grass? I raised a question about using Sugar Beet
                              > which sounds a lot more likely than grass - but it was poorly spoken of.
                              >
                              > The Varistors sound interesting . Any more info? Is it a domestic
                              dryer or
                              > one in the hairdressers? Have tried a Variac which started to smoke, and
                              > looked at the Simmerstats they put in electric ovens, but they only
                              turn the
                              > current on and off at varying intervals and are likely to be
                              difficult to
                              > manage
                              >
                              > Thank you very much again , Larry. It's good to see other peoples
                              > experience.
                              >
                              > Tony.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                              > Behalf Of daver01a
                              > Sent: 02 August 2006 04:22
                              > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts
                              >
                              > OK - One question :: Ias your Reflux Still the tone or two condensor
                              > model...
                              > I have a reflux column with three condensors...
                              > My column uses a boiler (pot) to generate the steam at the bottom of
                              > the column (just like a pot still)... But I have a feed line to add
                              > depleted water (Yes I said Water)...
                              > My Beer Mash feed is right above the stripper column (just before the
                              > first condensor)....
                              > The bottom condensor (1 st condensor) is right above the stripper
                              > column...
                              > Then I have the reflux column .....
                              > Then I have a 2nd condensor sitting on top of the reflux column - and
                              > just before the condensation dome (collector)...
                              > I have a feed tube takung off from the condensation dome that feeds
                              > into the final alcohol condensor (my 3rd condensor)..
                              > Then I have a set of 3-way ball valves that allow me to feed the
                              > product into a hydrometed cup for on the spot proof
                              > testing/verification....
                              > I'm only getting 2.8 Gallons per minute at 94% ...
                              > Haven't tried grain yet - but yard grass mash seems to be working fine
                              > for me...
                              > Too much detail about the mash concoction to go into here...
                              > But I believe you can control either an electric powered or gas
                              > powered still with at moderating condensor (like my 1st condensor)...
                              > Or if using electric elements - a dryer thermostat (those varistors
                              > they put on electric dryer drums)... All you have to do is place a
                              > semi metalic shim and practice with the thickness to cause the
                              > thermostat to kick out at your target temp...
                              > .....
                              > Sorry I got long wnded - but thought I'd throw my two cents (or 2 1/2)
                              > in...
                              > I'll put my still design on one of my web sites and include a link
                              > later - but it really isn't that revolutionary..
                              > Thanks..
                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Larry <larry@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > At 07:53 PM 08/01/2006, you wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >Trid/Alias,
                              > > >
                              > > >Cycling on and off with pot still is no fun at all.
                              > >
                              > > Man, cycling with a reflux still is just as bad, if not worse.
                              > >
                              > > My boiler came from Brewhaus.com, along with a free aluminum plate
                              > to go
                              > > between the kettle and the burner.
                              > >
                              > > That helps some, as the 1/4" thick aluminum acts as a buffer,
                              > passing on
                              > > retained heat while the element is cycled off.
                              > >
                              > > However, it imparts heat to the bottom of the boiler AND to the
                              > hotplate
                              > > heating element, which I suspect makes the hotplate stay cycled off
                              > longer,
                              > > allowing the plate and boiler to both cool anyway...
                              > >
                              > > I've gone to propane, myself.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Barefoot Larry
                              > > The Tradition String Band
                              > > www.traditionmusic.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                              > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                            • Anthony Athawes
                              Larry, You didn t comment on the size per min. of your drips - either you have a very big stiil or there s a mistake - surely? Well, we don t have yards in
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 3 7:41 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Larry, You didn't comment on the size per min. of your drips - either you
                                have a very big stiil or there's a mistake - surely?

                                Well, we don't have "yards" in Britain, but we certainly have to cut the
                                grass in our gardens. Are you really saying you can concoct a good wash for
                                making whisky etc. out of grass clippings? As I said last time, even Sugar
                                Beet is reckoned to be poor. There was no enthusiasm for the idea at any
                                rate - so grass.......?

                                I don't know if you play golf, but courses will be a fairly unlikely source
                                of clippings. Most are left on the ground, and after that we have a powerful
                                tractor that blows them into the rough. No body's going to rescue them. Most
                                parts are cut weekly or twice weekly and only the Greens are dumped - in
                                small piles.

                                But let's keep to the subject - POWER CONTROLLERS.

                                Tony

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                                Behalf Of daver01a
                                Sent: 03 August 2006 05:37
                                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts

                                Yard grass is the grass clippings you get from your yard when you mow
                                the grass...
                                We use an acid flash to break the lignin binders at the cellular level...
                                Then after rinse we treat the brew with cellulase enzymes... the
                                result is fermentable sugar proteins...
                                From here on it is just like any other distillation...
                                It called cellular conversion - the enzymes are availiable
                                commercially and are now cheap enough for practical use...
                                Since we have 1,000;s of miles of golf coarses here in Phoenix,
                                Arizona - we thought we'd put the 140 tons of monthly clippings to
                                good use...
                                But we use our ethanol to make E-85 gas ( so I'l just have to start
                                another thread - because I do realize that my comments are off track -
                                I apologize)....
                                Take care.
                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Athawes"
                                <Anthony.Athawes@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Larry,
                                >
                                > Thank you very much for taking this business up.
                                >
                                > Well, it's rather like your head bone's connected to your neck
                                bone......I'd
                                > sure like to see a picture to see what's going on.
                                >
                                > Thank goodness we are back on track though!
                                >
                                > You get 2.8 gals /minute? They usually talk in terms of 3 drips a
                                second.
                                > They must be the size of hen's eggs!
                                >
                                > My nearly completed still is the "World Class Reflux Still". Why it
                                is so
                                > named I am still to determine or somebody to tell me? It was the one
                                on the
                                > web. Basically it cost around £50 plus a certain amount of hardware
                                I had in
                                > stock from brewing beer from grain.
                                >
                                > What the devil is Yard Grass? I raised a question about using Sugar Beet
                                > which sounds a lot more likely than grass - but it was poorly spoken of.
                                >
                                > The Varistors sound interesting . Any more info? Is it a domestic
                                dryer or
                                > one in the hairdressers? Have tried a Variac which started to smoke, and
                                > looked at the Simmerstats they put in electric ovens, but they only
                                turn the
                                > current on and off at varying intervals and are likely to be
                                difficult to
                                > manage
                                >
                                > Thank you very much again , Larry. It's good to see other peoples
                                > experience.
                                >
                                > Tony.
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                                > Behalf Of daver01a
                                > Sent: 02 August 2006 04:22
                                > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts
                                >
                                > OK - One question :: Ias your Reflux Still the tone or two condensor
                                > model...
                                > I have a reflux column with three condensors...
                                > My column uses a boiler (pot) to generate the steam at the bottom of
                                > the column (just like a pot still)... But I have a feed line to add
                                > depleted water (Yes I said Water)...
                                > My Beer Mash feed is right above the stripper column (just before the
                                > first condensor)....
                                > The bottom condensor (1 st condensor) is right above the stripper
                                > column...
                                > Then I have the reflux column .....
                                > Then I have a 2nd condensor sitting on top of the reflux column - and
                                > just before the condensation dome (collector)...
                                > I have a feed tube takung off from the condensation dome that feeds
                                > into the final alcohol condensor (my 3rd condensor)..
                                > Then I have a set of 3-way ball valves that allow me to feed the
                                > product into a hydrometed cup for on the spot proof
                                > testing/verification....
                                > I'm only getting 2.8 Gallons per minute at 94% ...
                                > Haven't tried grain yet - but yard grass mash seems to be working fine
                                > for me...
                                > Too much detail about the mash concoction to go into here...
                                > But I believe you can control either an electric powered or gas
                                > powered still with at moderating condensor (like my 1st condensor)...
                                > Or if using electric elements - a dryer thermostat (those varistors
                                > they put on electric dryer drums)... All you have to do is place a
                                > semi metalic shim and practice with the thickness to cause the
                                > thermostat to kick out at your target temp...
                                > .....
                                > Sorry I got long wnded - but thought I'd throw my two cents (or 2 1/2)
                                > in...
                                > I'll put my still design on one of my web sites and include a link
                                > later - but it really isn't that revolutionary..
                                > Thanks..
                                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Larry <larry@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > At 07:53 PM 08/01/2006, you wrote:
                                > >
                                > > >Trid/Alias,
                                > > >
                                > > >Cycling on and off with pot still is no fun at all.
                                > >
                                > > Man, cycling with a reflux still is just as bad, if not worse.
                                > >
                                > > My boiler came from Brewhaus.com, along with a free aluminum plate
                                > to go
                                > > between the kettle and the burner.
                                > >
                                > > That helps some, as the 1/4" thick aluminum acts as a buffer,
                                > passing on
                                > > retained heat while the element is cycled off.
                                > >
                                > > However, it imparts heat to the bottom of the boiler AND to the
                                > hotplate
                                > > heating element, which I suspect makes the hotplate stay cycled off
                                > longer,
                                > > allowing the plate and boiler to both cool anyway...
                                > >
                                > > I've gone to propane, myself.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Barefoot Larry
                                > > The Tradition String Band
                                > > www.traditionmusic.com
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >









                                Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • diskmaster23
                                I am sure some of us are wondering if it relates to the grass kind that some of us love to smoke or the grass kind that is invovled in your yard?
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 3 1:37 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I am sure some of us are wondering if it relates to the "grass" kind
                                  that some of us love to smoke or the grass kind that is invovled in
                                  your yard?

                                  distillation of grass? wtf....

                                  Disk

                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Athawes"
                                  <Anthony.Athawes@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Larry, You didn't comment on the size per min. of your drips -
                                  either you
                                  > have a very big stiil or there's a mistake - surely?
                                  >
                                  > Well, we don't have "yards" in Britain, but we certainly have to cut the
                                  > grass in our gardens. Are you really saying you can concoct a good
                                  wash for
                                  > making whisky etc. out of grass clippings? As I said last time,
                                  even Sugar
                                  > Beet is reckoned to be poor. There was no enthusiasm for the idea at any
                                  > rate - so grass.......?
                                  >
                                  > I don't know if you play golf, but courses will be a fairly unlikely
                                  source
                                  > of clippings. Most are left on the ground, and after that we have a
                                  powerful
                                  > tractor that blows them into the rough. No body's going to rescue
                                  them. Most
                                  > parts are cut weekly or twice weekly and only the Greens are dumped - in
                                  > small piles.
                                  >
                                  > But let's keep to the subject - POWER CONTROLLERS.
                                  >
                                  > Tony
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                                  > Behalf Of daver01a
                                  > Sent: 03 August 2006 05:37
                                  > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts
                                  >
                                  > Yard grass is the grass clippings you get from your yard when you mow
                                  > the grass...
                                  > We use an acid flash to break the lignin binders at the cellular
                                  level...
                                  > Then after rinse we treat the brew with cellulase enzymes... the
                                  > result is fermentable sugar proteins...
                                  > From here on it is just like any other distillation...
                                  > It called cellular conversion - the enzymes are availiable
                                  > commercially and are now cheap enough for practical use...
                                  > Since we have 1,000;s of miles of golf coarses here in Phoenix,
                                  > Arizona - we thought we'd put the 140 tons of monthly clippings to
                                  > good use...
                                  > But we use our ethanol to make E-85 gas ( so I'l just have to start
                                  > another thread - because I do realize that my comments are off track -
                                  > I apologize)....
                                  > Take care.
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Athawes"
                                  > <Anthony.Athawes@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Larry,
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you very much for taking this business up.
                                  > >
                                  > > Well, it's rather like your head bone's connected to your neck
                                  > bone......I'd
                                  > > sure like to see a picture to see what's going on.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank goodness we are back on track though!
                                  > >
                                  > > You get 2.8 gals /minute? They usually talk in terms of 3 drips a
                                  > second.
                                  > > They must be the size of hen's eggs!
                                  > >
                                  > > My nearly completed still is the "World Class Reflux Still". Why it
                                  > is so
                                  > > named I am still to determine or somebody to tell me? It was the one
                                  > on the
                                  > > web. Basically it cost around £50 plus a certain amount of hardware
                                  > I had in
                                  > > stock from brewing beer from grain.
                                  > >
                                  > > What the devil is Yard Grass? I raised a question about using
                                  Sugar Beet
                                  > > which sounds a lot more likely than grass - but it was poorly
                                  spoken of.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Varistors sound interesting . Any more info? Is it a domestic
                                  > dryer or
                                  > > one in the hairdressers? Have tried a Variac which started to
                                  smoke, and
                                  > > looked at the Simmerstats they put in electric ovens, but they only
                                  > turn the
                                  > > current on and off at varying intervals and are likely to be
                                  > difficult to
                                  > > manage
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you very much again , Larry. It's good to see other peoples
                                  > > experience.
                                  > >
                                  > > Tony.
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                                  > > Behalf Of daver01a
                                  > > Sent: 02 August 2006 04:22
                                  > > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Power Controller for 2400 Watts
                                  > >
                                  > > OK - One question :: Ias your Reflux Still the tone or two condensor
                                  > > model...
                                  > > I have a reflux column with three condensors...
                                  > > My column uses a boiler (pot) to generate the steam at the bottom of
                                  > > the column (just like a pot still)... But I have a feed line to add
                                  > > depleted water (Yes I said Water)...
                                  > > My Beer Mash feed is right above the stripper column (just before the
                                  > > first condensor)....
                                  > > The bottom condensor (1 st condensor) is right above the stripper
                                  > > column...
                                  > > Then I have the reflux column .....
                                  > > Then I have a 2nd condensor sitting on top of the reflux column - and
                                  > > just before the condensation dome (collector)...
                                  > > I have a feed tube takung off from the condensation dome that feeds
                                  > > into the final alcohol condensor (my 3rd condensor)..
                                  > > Then I have a set of 3-way ball valves that allow me to feed the
                                  > > product into a hydrometed cup for on the spot proof
                                  > > testing/verification....
                                  > > I'm only getting 2.8 Gallons per minute at 94% ...
                                  > > Haven't tried grain yet - but yard grass mash seems to be working fine
                                  > > for me...
                                  > > Too much detail about the mash concoction to go into here...
                                  > > But I believe you can control either an electric powered or gas
                                  > > powered still with at moderating condensor (like my 1st condensor)...
                                  > > Or if using electric elements - a dryer thermostat (those varistors
                                  > > they put on electric dryer drums)... All you have to do is place a
                                  > > semi metalic shim and practice with the thickness to cause the
                                  > > thermostat to kick out at your target temp...
                                  > > .....
                                  > > Sorry I got long wnded - but thought I'd throw my two cents (or 2 1/2)
                                  > > in...
                                  > > I'll put my still design on one of my web sites and include a link
                                  > > later - but it really isn't that revolutionary..
                                  > > Thanks..
                                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Larry <larry@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > At 07:53 PM 08/01/2006, you wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >Trid/Alias,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >Cycling on and off with pot still is no fun at all.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Man, cycling with a reflux still is just as bad, if not worse.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My boiler came from Brewhaus.com, along with a free aluminum plate
                                  > > to go
                                  > > > between the kettle and the burner.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That helps some, as the 1/4" thick aluminum acts as a buffer,
                                  > > passing on
                                  > > > retained heat while the element is cycled off.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > However, it imparts heat to the bottom of the boiler AND to the
                                  > > hotplate
                                  > > > heating element, which I suspect makes the hotplate stay cycled off
                                  > > longer,
                                  > > > allowing the plate and boiler to both cool anyway...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I've gone to propane, myself.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Barefoot Larry
                                  > > > The Tradition String Band
                                  > > > www.traditionmusic.com
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                  > > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                  > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                • Harry
                                  ... Could you please trim the message to include only the relevant parts, instead of the entire several messages of the thread? Slainte! regards Harry
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 3 5:32 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "diskmaster23" <diskmaster23@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am sure some of us are wondering if it relates to the "grass" kind
                                    > that some of us love to smoke or the grass kind that is invovled in
                                    > your yard?
                                    >
                                    > distillation of grass? wtf....
                                    >
                                    > Disk



                                    Could you please trim the message to include only the relevant parts,
                                    instead of the entire several messages of the thread?

                                    Slainte!
                                    regards Harry
                                    Moderator
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.