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RE: [Distillers] Re: potiasium sorbate. blue distillate???

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  • Anthony Athawes
    I m afraid I have been using the same 25 gal plastic carboys. I rinse them well with Soda Meta. I have only had one from Boots that failed whilst I was away,
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 28, 2006
      I'm afraid I have been using the same 25 gal plastic carboys. I rinse them
      well with Soda Meta. I have only had one from Boots that failed whilst I
      was away, and the beer appeared to have been steadily consumed by the
      domestic boiler. There was very little trace....

      I'm sure you're right about scarrifcation and will take it up. However, I
      have never had the consequences you describe, brewing perhaps three times a
      year and winning the odd prize (My secret was to increase the density of
      Malt!).

      Tony

      PS. Whilst I'm on, how do you address a letter to this web? I don't seem to
      get through. I tried once this morning re securing the lid on a 5 gal milk
      churn for distillation later on

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
      Behalf Of Andrew Bugal
      Sent: 28 June 2006 13:20
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: potiasium sorbate. blue distillate???

      Kirt,

      Home beer brewers, using the usual plastic carboys for brewing their beer
      know that the plastic carboys have a life of 1.5 to 2 years of constant use.
      During this time, they develop micro scratches inside the carboys which
      allows bacteria to grow. That is why most home brewers use a cup of plain,
      unscented bleach per 24 litres in the carboy to sterilise the container.

      Too many people scrub the hell out of the internal surface of their
      plastic carboys without realising that they are leaving small surface
      scratches behind which allows bacteria to grow and do not follow proper
      procedures to ensure their their carboy is properly sterilised. Cleaning
      the inside of the carboy should be done with a sponge after the carboy has
      been filled with water for 24 hours.

      Unfortunately, plastic carboys do have to be replaced for distilling after
      a period. Your cleaning and stated fact that you have been using this for
      years bears this out. You can extend their life a bit, if they are not in
      too rough a state, by using strong bleach and rinsing afterwards.

      Best regards,

      Bwyze

      kirtgk <kirtgk@...> wrote:
      i used one teaspoon per gallon of wash, and the total wash volume
      was 5 gallons. tonight i cleaned still very thouroughly and replaced
      all packings. ran a water/vinigar run to clean and take away
      anything that the new stainless steel scrubbies my have on them.
      then i did a five gallon wash run and all was fine. NO MORE BLUE
      im gonna haveto do some research on the prefered PH of the wash
      after fermenting is done andjust prior to distillation. wouldnt
      happen to know this info to save me some time??

      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kirtgk" <kirtgk@> wrote:
      > >
      > > the only thing in the wash was 15lbs. sugar water and alcotech
      > > turbo. ive been at this for a long time and in all my washes ive
      > > used the same water from my tap and never had this problem. ive
      used
      > > this same fermentor over and over and havent had any
      contaminations
      > > either. the final product smells of vinigar. possiable
      > > contamination???
      >
      >
      > Hi Kirt,
      > Rob is correct in that blue distillate comes from alkaline wash in
      > contact with copper. Therefore your wash is alkaline, no doubt.
      So,
      > how did it get this way? Probably because of the amount of
      sorbate
      > you used (you didn't say how much).
      >
      > Here's a bit of info on P.Sorbate and it's use in foods regarding
      > dosage and pH shifts...
      >
      >
      > <quote>
      > Potassium sorbate is effective against yeasts, molds, and select
      > bacteria, and is widely used at 0.025 to 0.10 % levels in cheeses,
      > dips, yogurt, sour cream, bread, cakes, pies and fillings, baking
      > mixes, doughs, icings, fudges, toppings, beverages, margarine,
      salads,
      > fermented and acidified vegetables, olives, fruit products,
      dressings,
      > smoked and salted fish, confections and mayonnaise.
      >
      > Potassium sorbate is a white crystalline powder, inexpensive (at
      the
      > usage level), with basically no noticeable flavor at normal usage
      > concentrations. In wine processing, sorbates are used to prevent
      > refermentation. MAXIMUM LEVEL allowable by law is 0.1%.
      >
      > It is important to know that the addition of sodium benzoate
      and/or
      > potassium sorbate to a food product will raise the pH by
      approximately
      > 0.1 to 0.5 pH units depending on the amount, pH, and type of
      product.
      > Additional adjustment of the pH might be needed to keep the pH at
      a
      > safe level.
      >
      > Source: Cornell University article
      > http://tinyurl.com/pss8o
      > </quote>
      >
      > Be aware that each 0.1 pH unit is effectively a twofold increase.
      > That is, pH 8 is actually TEN TIMES more alkaline than pH 7.
      >
      >
      > HTH
      > Slainte!
      > regards Harry
      >






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    • kirtgk
      i greatly agree with you. this was the first time ive ever had this problem and also the first time ive ever used p. sorbate. ive come to the conclusion that
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 28, 2006
        i greatly agree with you. this was the first time ive ever had this
        problem and also the first time ive ever used p. sorbate. ive come
        to the conclusion that ill not use it again.

        im heading out of town friday so im gonna try to make some wast to
        ferment whileim gone and do everything the same way minus the p.
        sorbate. ill basicaly be doing a controlled experiment where the
        only differance is the potassium sorbate.
        BTW on a wash that didnt have the sorbate the distillate was clear
        and very good. i did clean the entire still inside and out and
        replaced the scrubbies before running it on this clear wash.


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kirtgk" <kirtgk@> wrote:
        > >
        > > i used one teaspoon per gallon of wash, and the total wash
        volume
        > > was 5 gallons. tonight i cleaned still very thouroughly and
        replaced
        > > all packings. ran a water/vinigar run to clean and take away
        > > anything that the new stainless steel scrubbies my have on them.
        > > then i did a five gallon wash run and all was fine. NO MORE BLUE
        > > im gonna haveto do some research on the prefered PH of the wash
        > > after fermenting is done andjust prior to distillation. wouldnt
        > > happen to know this info to save me some time??
        >
        >
        >
        > Did you have copper mesh before the SS scrubs?
        >
        > You shouldn't need to adjust pH at all. The fermentation will be
        > acidic (ideally ~4.5 to 5 pH) as this is the environment that
        yeast
        > works in. It also finishes a tad more acidic than at the start
        due to
        > metabolic byproducts of fermentation. If it were alkaline, the
        yeast
        > wouldn't work (stuck ferment). Clearly you raised the pH to an
        > alkaline level by the addition of the P.Sorbate. Best to leave
        things
        > alone if the fermentation has gone ok.
        >
        >
        > Slainte!
        > regards Harry
        >
      • kirtgk
        the carboys in ? are around 8 months old. ( ive been at it longer than that though) as for cleaning them, i rinse them out as soon as i transfer the wash into
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 28, 2006
          the carboys in ? are around 8 months old. ( ive been at it longer
          than that though) as for cleaning them, i rinse them out as soon as
          i transfer the wash into the still (usually while its heating up)
          and then when it stabalizes i clean them. i use a very soft bottle
          brush and dont need to scrub for there isnt anything to scrub at.
          possiably a very little foam from the head of the ferment but it
          almost always just rinses off or a few passes with the bottle brush.
          then i steralize them with a steralizer i get at the brew store. and
          rinse them thouroughly. prior to their use i rerinse and resteralize
          them just for peace of mind. (im pretty picky, i dont like to waste
          possiable product) this regiment has never let me down untill
          possiably now. im gonna do everything the same way minus the p.
          sorbate to see if it was the culprit. if it was not then ill be
          bitchin about the blue again.

          thanks for the heads up on the life expectancy on plastic carboys
          though. seems possiable if you scrub them.


          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Bugal <bwyze44@...> wrote:
          >
          > Kirt,
          >
          > Home beer brewers, using the usual plastic carboys for brewing
          their beer know that the plastic carboys have a life of 1.5 to 2
          years of constant use. During this time, they develop micro
          scratches inside the carboys which allows bacteria to grow. That is
          why most home brewers use a cup of plain, unscented bleach per 24
          litres in the carboy to sterilise the container.
          >
          > Too many people scrub the hell out of the internal surface of
          their plastic carboys without realising that they are leaving small
          surface scratches behind which allows bacteria to grow and do not
          follow proper procedures to ensure their their carboy is properly
          sterilised. Cleaning the inside of the carboy should be done with a
          sponge after the carboy has been filled with water for 24 hours.
          >
          > Unfortunately, plastic carboys do have to be replaced for
          distilling after a period. Your cleaning and stated fact that you
          have been using this for years bears this out. You can extend their
          life a bit, if they are not in too rough a state, by using strong
          bleach and rinsing afterwards.
          >
          > Best regards,
          >
          > Bwyze
          >
          > kirtgk <kirtgk@...> wrote:
          > i used one teaspoon per gallon of wash, and the total
          wash volume
          > was 5 gallons. tonight i cleaned still very thouroughly and
          replaced
          > all packings. ran a water/vinigar run to clean and take away
          > anything that the new stainless steel scrubbies my have on them.
          > then i did a five gallon wash run and all was fine. NO MORE BLUE
          > im gonna haveto do some research on the prefered PH of the wash
          > after fermenting is done andjust prior to distillation. wouldnt
          > happen to know this info to save me some time??
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kirtgk" <kirtgk@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > the only thing in the wash was 15lbs. sugar water and alcotech
          > > > turbo. ive been at this for a long time and in all my washes
          ive
          > > > used the same water from my tap and never had this problem.
          ive
          > used
          > > > this same fermentor over and over and havent had any
          > contaminations
          > > > either. the final product smells of vinigar. possiable
          > > > contamination???
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Kirt,
          > > Rob is correct in that blue distillate comes from alkaline wash
          in
          > > contact with copper. Therefore your wash is alkaline, no doubt.
          > So,
          > > how did it get this way? Probably because of the amount of
          > sorbate
          > > you used (you didn't say how much).
          > >
          > > Here's a bit of info on P.Sorbate and it's use in foods
          regarding
          > > dosage and pH shifts...
          > >
          > >
          > > <quote>
          > > Potassium sorbate is effective against yeasts, molds, and select
          > > bacteria, and is widely used at 0.025 to 0.10 % levels in
          cheeses,
          > > dips, yogurt, sour cream, bread, cakes, pies and fillings,
          baking
          > > mixes, doughs, icings, fudges, toppings, beverages, margarine,
          > salads,
          > > fermented and acidified vegetables, olives, fruit products,
          > dressings,
          > > smoked and salted fish, confections and mayonnaise.
          > >
          > > Potassium sorbate is a white crystalline powder, inexpensive (at
          > the
          > > usage level), with basically no noticeable flavor at normal
          usage
          > > concentrations. In wine processing, sorbates are used to prevent
          > > refermentation. MAXIMUM LEVEL allowable by law is 0.1%.
          > >
          > > It is important to know that the addition of sodium benzoate
          > and/or
          > > potassium sorbate to a food product will raise the pH by
          > approximately
          > > 0.1 to 0.5 pH units depending on the amount, pH, and type of
          > product.
          > > Additional adjustment of the pH might be needed to keep the pH
          at
          > a
          > > safe level.
          > >
          > > Source: Cornell University article
          > > http://tinyurl.com/pss8o
          > > </quote>
          > >
          > > Be aware that each 0.1 pH unit is effectively a twofold
          increase.
          > > That is, pH 8 is actually TEN TIMES more alkaline than pH 7.
          > >
          > >
          > > HTH
          > > Slainte!
          > > regards Harry
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > ____________________________________________________
          > ---------------------------------
          > On Yahoo!7
          > 24: Watch it from 9.30pm on Thursdays on Seven
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Link D'Antoni
          Why is it necessary to kill the yeast after fermentaion if you are going to distill anyway? I only us P. Sorbate to prevent re-fermentation for bottling my
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 29, 2006
            Why is it necessary to 'kill' the yeast after
            fermentaion if you are going to distill anyway?
            I only us P. Sorbate to prevent re-fermentation for
            bottling my wines, especially sweetened fruit wines.
            Yes, that is a matter of experience... bad expeince.

            Link




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