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Double action (was) Re: temp misreradings

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  • miciofelice2003
    Hi Harry. Yes, I think I ve to speak with somebody in my native language, also because I found we say the same things but in different way. Just for having a
    Message 1 of 94 , Jun 2, 2006
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      Hi Harry.

      Yes, I think I've to speak with somebody in my native language, also
      because I found we say the same things but in different way.
      Just for having a conversation, (and then I'll come back to my old
      university to speak with some teacher) I've the impression that our
      conversation is like the etern question if was born first the egg or
      the hen.


      > that is < T1 because there are some heat losses.
      > >

      > Yes and no. Yes because if the column is not perfectly insulated,
      > you will get heat loss. No because there are heat transfers (not
      > losses) to the descending liquid, which means that the vapour that
      > arrives at the top is purer therefore it condenses at a lower temp
      > than the parent liquid from where it came, which was not as pure.
      > Heat TRANSFER is not loss, it remains in the system.
      >
      >
      ============= In my opinion here you confirm that the head column
      has a lower temperature than the bottom " ... the vapour that
      arrives at the top is purer therefore it condenses at a lower temp
      than the parent liquid from where it came...".
      Of course heat transfer remain in the system, but I know that the
      quantity of energy contained in a substance is correlated to the
      quantity of that one: less the quantity, less the total energy, that
      is the temperature (if the other parameters stay constant.
      ==========
      >
      >
      >
      > > At temperature T2 you have only the fractions that can stay as
      > > vapour, that means the lighter components: the heavier
      components
      > > are already condensated because T2 is less than the condensation
      > > temperature of those ones.
      >
      >
      > >>>>>>>>>>> In practice, no.
      > They, (meaning components that are NOT ethanol) are not
      > necessarily 'condensed', because there's a certain amount of
      > ENTRAINMENT (meaning carried up with) of impurities (meaning
      > anything NOT ethanol) in all fractions of a distillation. Pure
      > separation is not possible via simple distillation. There is also
      > the situation where some of these 'impurities' may be gases, not
      > liquids or solids. You really need to understand this concept, or
      > you will never understand the meaning of distillation.
      Distillation
      > is a SEPARATION process.
      >
      ================ In practice, you are talking about "stripping":
      O.K., I know what stripping is (I worked 6 years in a crude
      refinery), but don't forget that I'm distilling "grappa", and so I
      want to have some stripping of tails: not a lot, not a few, just the
      quantity able to give flavours.============



      > >
      > > Talking not in terms of temperature but energy (heat): you have
      at
      > > the bottom of column the 100% of energy: along the column you
      lose
      > > some -let's imagine - 50% and so, to respect the balance only
      the
      > > quantity of lighter components that can stay as vapour with that
      > > quantity of energy are present on the top of column.
      >
      >
      >
      > >>>>>>>>>>> No. See my previous comment about entrainment. Think
      > also that without a condenser on top to 'force' condensation and
      > reflux, the column would need to be many metres long (or high) for
      > this 'lighter' elements to gather and be noticeable.



      =============== Yes, is correct. But my sentence should be intended
      as a "statistical" result. Of course some heavier components will be
      included (the stripping), and those ones will not condense because
      will not touch a colder substance (wall or colder surrounding
      vapours). It's for this reason that a reflux device is used.
      ===============

      >
      > >
      > > Let's imagine the phenomena: on the bottom of the column is a
      mix
      > of
      > > elements that can stay as vapour because the temperature is = or
      >
      > > than the evaporating temperture of those components.
      >
      >
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ermm...I think you mean 'condensing' temp, not
      > evaporating temp.
      >
      ===================== Yes, I was meaning "condensing", even if
      a "condensing" temperature is also a "evaporating" temperature.
      Water boil at 100 °C and, under the same conditions, steam condense
      at 100°C. =======================



      > >
      > > Climbing along the column the walls are less hot than before,
      and
      > so
      > > some heavier elements will start to condense. This happen
      because
      > > the temperature in that point is lower than the condensing
      > > temperature of those elements.
      >
      >
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why is the temp lower at that point? Because
      this
      > happens if there is reflux/condensation/liquid DESCENDING. This
      > will be lower in temp. The DESCENDING liquid accepts a TRANSFER
      of
      > heat from the vapour and thus reboils. If there is NO DESCENDING
      > liquid, the vapour just goes on it's merry way up to the top, and
      > carries its ENTRAINED impurities (anything NOT ethanol) along with
      > it. Result is 'heavier' (less pure) product.
      >
      >

      ================ Here it's possible to see the question about egg
      and hen: I wrote that the vapours condense because wall are cold,
      you said that wall are cold because vapours condense ....
      But, let's imagine to insulate so well the column that no heat
      losses can happen: such in this way will happen what you described
      above, I mean that result is heavier product.
      So, if you insulate a column you will have an heavier product, the
      opposite if you don't insulate the column. =================



      > > The vapours, such in this way, become more "pure" because lost
      the
      > > heavier components, or not?
      >
      >
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The vapour can't lose the heavier components
      > unless there is DESCENDING liquid. See previous comment.
      >
      >
      ===================== In my humble opinion a vapour condense when
      get in touch with a colder element, may be a colder liquid or a
      colder wall. If you don't have a descending liquid but you have a
      colder column wall, you will have a condensation. Yes, but you can
      say that you have a colder wall because you have a liquid flowing
      down .... ( egg or hen?)========================

      >
      > >
      > > On the top of the column will stay (theoretically speaking) only
      > the
      > > components that have their condensing temperature lower that
      > > temperature existing on the top of the column in that moment.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand what you're trying to say, but the
      > vapours will be at the temp of boiling/condensation point of that
      > particular ratio of [ethanol : other-things] that make up that
      > vapour.
      >
      ============== And let me say that that particular composition of
      ethanol and other components is reached because the heavier
      components were already condensed: and, if so, the top temperature
      result lower than the condensing temperature of heavier components
      (otherwise also the heavier components will stay on the top, that
      happen at the final time of distillation, when temperatures
      increases). =========================



      > >
      > > If you insulate the column, the top temperature is higher than
      > > before,
      >
      >
      >
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>> No it isn't. This is the thing about distilling
      that
      > people find so hard to come to terms with. Insulating the column
      > only contains the heat necessary for the separation process,
      > preventing it being lost from the system and not doing anything.
      > The temp at the top, bottom, or anywhere in between is purely a
      > measurement of the boiling/condensation temp of the stuff inside
      the
      > column at that point.
      >
      ================= I agree with you.
      Just to explain why I said that, I was assuming the (unexpressed,
      unfortunately) condition of constance of heat supply. I mean,
      considering the heat supply the same, both the conditions of
      insulated or not insulated column.
      But I'm also referring to what you wrote on the forum to me about my
      column, now I'm a little bit confused. Let me attach here:

      snip
      > Harry, thaks a lot for your drawing, is exactly what I have.


      .........Pictures are better than words, yes? ;-)



      > Only a thing: I have (at least, I think to have) also some
      > condensing on the lower plates.
      > In my opinion I have a temperature gradient along the column: so
      the
      > upper-boiling components that leave the boiler have a condensation
      > when they bump on a relatively cold plate. Such in this way I get
      a
      > partial purification of the vapours that climb along the column,
      > isn't it?



      ................You are correct. But the reason is the surrounding
      air removes some of the heat from the column.


      >
      > Now I'm in doubt if I have to insulate my column or not: when it
      > is "naked" the temperature difference between head and bottom
      column
      > is an average of about 9 °C for the 90% of the distillation time.
      > When insulated this temperature difference is around 4 - 5 °C.
      >
      > What should be better and why?




      ........As I said before, you have a good potstill for grappa. DO
      NOT INSULATE the column, unless you want the grappa to be heavier in
      tails. It is a good balance between heating and air cooling, and it
      allows a little more reflux to make the grappa cleaner. It works
      similar to the old Scotch potstills or the French brandy stills,
      except you have a little more control with the water tube in the top.

      If you insulate the column, the grappa distillate will be heavier
      with impurities and taste much different. Try both ways and you
      will see the difference. If you don't like it, you can always re-
      distill it.
      snip

      So, I agreed with you and I did what you said: I had the idea that
      insulating a column give an heavier product and a not insulated
      column give a purer product.

      Is something changed? ========================


      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you haven't got the idea by now from what I've
      > explained, then there's not much more I can do. Perhaps you
      should
      > talk to some of the professional distillers in Italy to explain it
      > better in your native language, Micio.
      >
      ================= Yes, may be the language. Anyway, now I'm a little
      bit curious and so I'm activating to follow your advice.

      Thanks a lot, Harry.====================


      ciao a tutti
      micio felice
    • Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      The following Distillers poll is now closed. Here are the final results: POLL QUESTION: Potstillers How do you decide when to make a cut in your spirit run ?
      Message 94 of 94 , Apr 2 3:42 AM
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        The following Distillers poll is now closed. Here are the
        final results:


        POLL QUESTION: Potstillers
        How do you decide when to make a cut in your spirit run ?

        CHOICES AND RESULTS
        - By Taste, 4 votes, 6.15%
        - By Smell, 3 votes, 4.62%
        - By Taste & Smell, 28 votes, 43.08%
        - By Temprature, 15 votes, 23.08%
        - By Alchohol Volume, 15 votes, 23.08%



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