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Re: surging

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  • yukon656
    Hello Dean, thanks for the reply. I am not running a reflux but do have packing(ss scrubie) in the small column(20mmx220mm). I am heating with propane which is
    Message 1 of 11 , May 4, 2006
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      Hello Dean, thanks for the reply. I am not running a reflux but do
      have packing(ss scrubie) in the small column(20mmx220mm). I am heating
      with propane which is why I was so unnerved by this. Are you say the
      packing is most likely to tight? I can blow through the packed column
      with minimal resistance. I have pics of the setup on the new
      distillers page of the setup. Thanks again for the reply.

      S! Yukon

      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dean Thomas <deanlil2@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Yukon
      > I assume you are using a reflux still ?
      > Have you checked your packing ? The packing will more than likely be
      > your main culprit.
      > How are you heating your boiler ?
      >
      > Dean.
    • Dean Thomas
      Hi Yukon Yes Double check your packing, Make sure it is stainless steel i.e. pull it out and check it (copper is a better option for a stainless still). Seeing
      Message 2 of 11 , May 5, 2006
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        Hi Yukon
        Yes Double check your packing, Make sure it is stainless steel i.e. pull
        it out and check it (copper is a better option for a stainless still).
        Seeing that you are running on propane And looking at your set up the
        only thing I can think of that would cause surging would be a
        restriction, more than likely your packing. And yes I would be worried to.

        If you were running it as i think, that is basically a pot still with
        packing and a condenser the only thing that I can imagine causing your
        symptoms is a blockage of some description, either in the packing or
        possibly if your collection tube was below the collection level or
        submersed.

        Dean.

        yukon656 wrote:
        > Hello Dean, thanks for the reply. I am not running a reflux but do
        > have packing(ss scrubie) in the small column(20mmx220mm). I am heating
        > with propane which is why I was so unnerved by this. Are you say the
        > packing is most likely to tight? I can blow through the packed column
        > with minimal resistance. I have pics of the setup on the new
        > distillers page of the setup. Thanks again for the reply.
        >
        > S! Yukon
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dean Thomas <deanlil2@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Hi Yukon
        >> I assume you are using a reflux still ?
        >> Have you checked your packing ? The packing will more than likely be
        >> your main culprit.
        >> How are you heating your boiler ?
        >>
        >> Dean.
      • Andrew Bugal
        Yukon, I am not an engineer but rather try and take a common sense approach to problems. Am I right in assuming your column is only 20 mm diameter? If so,
        Message 3 of 11 , May 5, 2006
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          Yukon,

          I am not an engineer but rather try and take a common sense approach to problems.

          Am I right in assuming your column is only 20 mm diameter? If so, that is less than an inch in diameter. That could cause a pressure back-up where surging could occur due to the pressure of the "steam" rising out of the boiler in volume and being restricted down to a small output. Some of this pressure would have to hang around the boiler until the pressure became so great, it brute forces it's way up the column or "surges". This pressure could cause the SS packing to compact due to the size (remember that some things expand when heated - including air).

          Some experts warn of "channeling" with small diameter columns but it sounds like you are getting a pressure back-up due to the potential packing concentration under pressure due to the diameter of the column.

          Sorry I cannot explain this mathematically but that would be the first thing I would look at.

          Have you tried another type of loose packing such as raschig rings or stainless steel ball-bearings? Either of these do not compact under pressure

          Best regards,

          Bwyze

          Dean Thomas <deanlil2@...> wrote:
          Hi Yukon
          Yes Double check your packing, Make sure it is stainless steel i.e. pull
          it out and check it (copper is a better option for a stainless still).
          Seeing that you are running on propane And looking at your set up the
          only thing I can think of that would cause surging would be a
          restriction, more than likely your packing. And yes I would be worried to.

          If you were running it as i think, that is basically a pot still with
          packing and a condenser the only thing that I can imagine causing your
          symptoms is a blockage of some description, either in the packing or
          possibly if your collection tube was below the collection level or
          submersed.

          Dean.

          yukon656 wrote:
          > Hello Dean, thanks for the reply. I am not running a reflux but do
          > have packing(ss scrubie) in the small column(20mmx220mm). I am heating
          > with propane which is why I was so unnerved by this. Are you say the
          > packing is most likely to tight? I can blow through the packed column
          > with minimal resistance. I have pics of the setup on the new
          > distillers page of the setup. Thanks again for the reply.
          >
          > S! Yukon
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dean Thomas wrote:
          >
          >> Hi Yukon
          >> I assume you are using a reflux still ?
          >> Have you checked your packing ? The packing will more than likely be
          >> your main culprit.
          >> How are you heating your boiler ?
          >>
          >> Dean.



          Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
          FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
          Yahoo! Groups Links










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        • waljaco
          25mm (1 inch) diameter columns are easily flooded. You need to control the power much more and pack very lightly. wal ... approach to problems. ... that is
          Message 4 of 11 , May 6, 2006
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            25mm (1 inch) diameter columns are easily flooded. You need to control
            the power much more and pack very lightly.
            wal
            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Bugal <bwyze44@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yukon,
            >
            > I am not an engineer but rather try and take a common sense
            approach to problems.
            >
            > Am I right in assuming your column is only 20 mm diameter? If so,
            that is less than an inch in diameter. That could cause a pressure
            back-up where surging could occur due to the pressure of the "steam"
            rising out of the boiler in volume and being restricted down to a
            small output. Some of this pressure would have to hang around the
            boiler until the pressure became so great, it brute forces it's way up
            the column or "surges". This pressure could cause the SS packing to
            compact due to the size (remember that some things expand when heated
            - including air).
            >
            > Some experts warn of "channeling" with small diameter columns but
            it sounds like you are getting a pressure back-up due to the potential
            packing concentration under pressure due to the diameter of the column.
            >
            > Sorry I cannot explain this mathematically but that would be the
            first thing I would look at.
            >
            > Have you tried another type of loose packing such as raschig rings
            or stainless steel ball-bearings? Either of these do not compact
            under pressure
            >
            > Best regards,
            >
            > Bwyze
            >
            > Dean Thomas <deanlil2@...> wrote:
            > Hi Yukon
            > Yes Double check your packing, Make sure it is stainless steel i.e.
            pull
            > it out and check it (copper is a better option for a stainless still).
            > Seeing that you are running on propane And looking at your set up the
            > only thing I can think of that would cause surging would be a
            > restriction, more than likely your packing. And yes I would be
            worried to.
            >
            > If you were running it as i think, that is basically a pot still with
            > packing and a condenser the only thing that I can imagine causing your
            > symptoms is a blockage of some description, either in the packing or
            > possibly if your collection tube was below the collection level or
            > submersed.
            >
            > Dean.
            >
            > yukon656 wrote:
            > > Hello Dean, thanks for the reply. I am not running a reflux but do
            > > have packing(ss scrubie) in the small column(20mmx220mm). I am
            heating
            > > with propane which is why I was so unnerved by this. Are you say the
            > > packing is most likely to tight? I can blow through the packed column
            > > with minimal resistance. I have pics of the setup on the new
            > > distillers page of the setup. Thanks again for the reply.
            > >
            > > S! Yukon
            > >
            > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dean Thomas wrote:
            > >
            > >> Hi Yukon
            > >> I assume you are using a reflux still ?
            > >> Have you checked your packing ? The packing will more than likely be
            > >> your main culprit.
            > >> How are you heating your boiler ?
            > >>
            > >> Dean.
            >
            >
            >
            > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
            > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > On Yahoo!7
            > Answers: Real people ask and answer questions on any topic.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • yukon656
            Hello and thank you for the reply. The diam of the column is in fact 25mm instead of 20mm. The scrubbie is verified ss but may indeed be to tight. I am going
            Message 5 of 11 , May 6, 2006
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              Hello and thank you for the reply. The diam of the column is in fact
              25mm instead of 20mm. The scrubbie is verified ss but may indeed be
              to tight. I am going to remove it and replace with 10mm glass beads.
              Also am building a much more capable condenser. Thank you all again
              for the ideas and advice it is much appriciated.

              !S

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
              >
              > 25mm (1 inch) diameter columns are easily flooded. You need to
              control
              > the power much more and pack very lightly.
              > wal
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Bugal <bwyze44@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Yukon,
              > >
              > > I am not an engineer but rather try and take a common sense
              > approach to problems.
              > >
              > > Am I right in assuming your column is only 20 mm diameter? If
              so,
              > that is less than an inch in diameter. That could cause a pressure
              > back-up where surging could occur due to the pressure of
              the "steam"
              > rising out of the boiler in volume and being restricted down to a
              > small output. Some of this pressure would have to hang around the
              > boiler until the pressure became so great, it brute forces it's
              way up
              > the column or "surges". This pressure could cause the SS packing
              to
              > compact due to the size (remember that some things expand when
              heated
              > - including air).
              > >
              > > Some experts warn of "channeling" with small diameter columns
              but
              > it sounds like you are getting a pressure back-up due to the
              potential
              > packing concentration under pressure due to the diameter of the
              column.
              > >
              > > Sorry I cannot explain this mathematically but that would be
              the
              > first thing I would look at.
              > >
              > > Have you tried another type of loose packing such as raschig
              rings
              > or stainless steel ball-bearings? Either of these do not compact
              > under pressure
              > >
              > > Best regards,
              > >
              > > Bwyze
            • Lindsay Williams
              Seems to me you need to decide whether you want to go with a reflux rig or a pot still. What you have now is a very bad compromise. So bad, in fact, that it
              Message 6 of 11 , May 6, 2006
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                Seems to me you need to decide whether you want to go with a reflux
                rig or a pot still. What you have now is a very bad compromise. So
                bad, in fact, that it doesn't work. Like Wal said, your power will
                need to be just enough to boil the wash. If you want to do reflux, I
                would seriously suggest you use a bigger diameter column and do it
                properly.

                A reflective note on pot versus reflux:- IMHO, after some experience
                in this area, trying to turn a pot still into a reflux still is not
                worth it. So, you raise the abv up to 80-85%? But it is still skanky
                (low purity) and slow to produce.

                Just my thoughts - feel fre to totally ignore them!!

                Cheers,
                Lindsay.

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "yukon656" <yukon656@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello and thank you for the reply. The diam of the column is in fact
                > 25mm instead of 20mm. The scrubbie is verified ss but may indeed be
                > to tight. I am going to remove it and replace with 10mm glass beads.
                > Also am building a much more capable condenser. Thank you all again
                > for the ideas and advice it is much appriciated.
                >
                > !S
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                > >
                > > 25mm (1 inch) diameter columns are easily flooded. You need to
                > control
                > > the power much more and pack very lightly.
                > > wal
                > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Bugal <bwyze44@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Yukon,
                > > >
                > > > I am not an engineer but rather try and take a common sense
                > > approach to problems.
                > > >
                > > > Am I right in assuming your column is only 20 mm diameter? If
                > so,
                > > that is less than an inch in diameter. That could cause a pressure
                > > back-up where surging could occur due to the pressure of
                > the "steam"
                > > rising out of the boiler in volume and being restricted down to a
                > > small output. Some of this pressure would have to hang around the
                > > boiler until the pressure became so great, it brute forces it's
                > way up
                > > the column or "surges". This pressure could cause the SS packing
                > to
                > > compact due to the size (remember that some things expand when
                > heated
                > > - including air).
                > > >
                > > > Some experts warn of "channeling" with small diameter columns
                > but
                > > it sounds like you are getting a pressure back-up due to the
                > potential
                > > packing concentration under pressure due to the diameter of the
                > column.
                > > >
                > > > Sorry I cannot explain this mathematically but that would be
                > the
                > > first thing I would look at.
                > > >
                > > > Have you tried another type of loose packing such as raschig
                > rings
                > > or stainless steel ball-bearings? Either of these do not compact
                > > under pressure
                > > >
                > > > Best regards,
                > > >
                > > > Bwyze
                >
              • donald holcombe
                Is this column perking like a coffee pot? I asked about making a 3/4 inch column a while back . I got no replies but during research i found out that a small
                Message 7 of 11 , May 6, 2006
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                  Is this column perking like a coffee pot? I asked about making a 3/4 inch column a while back . I got no replies but during research i found out that a small column will Flood and berp kinda like a coffee pot . Just a thought.

                  Andrew Bugal <bwyze44@...> wrote: Yukon,

                  I am not an engineer but rather try and take a common sense approach to problems.

                  Am I right in assuming your column is only 20 mm diameter? If so, that is less than an inch in diameter. That could cause a pressure back-up where surging could occur due to the pressure of the "steam" rising out of the boiler in volume and being restricted down to a small output. Some of this pressure would have to hang around the boiler until the pressure became so great, it brute forces it's way up the column or "surges". This pressure could cause the SS packing to compact due to the size (remember that some things expand when heated - including air).

                  Some experts warn of "channeling" with small diameter columns but it sounds like you are getting a pressure back-up due to the potential packing concentration under pressure due to the diameter of the column.

                  Sorry I cannot explain this mathematically but that would be the first thing I would look at.

                  Have you tried another type of loose packing such as raschig rings or stainless steel ball-bearings? Either of these do not compact under pressure

                  Best regards,

                  Bwyze

                  Dean Thomas <deanlil2@...> wrote:
                  Hi Yukon
                  Yes Double check your packing, Make sure it is stainless steel i.e. pull
                  it out and check it (copper is a better option for a stainless still).
                  Seeing that you are running on propane And looking at your set up the
                  only thing I can think of that would cause surging would be a
                  restriction, more than likely your packing. And yes I would be worried to.

                  If you were running it as i think, that is basically a pot still with
                  packing and a condenser the only thing that I can imagine causing your
                  symptoms is a blockage of some description, either in the packing or
                  possibly if your collection tube was below the collection level or
                  submersed.

                  Dean.

                  yukon656 wrote:
                  > Hello Dean, thanks for the reply. I am not running a reflux but do
                  > have packing(ss scrubie) in the small column(20mmx220mm). I am heating
                  > with propane which is why I was so unnerved by this. Are you say the
                  > packing is most likely to tight? I can blow through the packed column
                  > with minimal resistance. I have pics of the setup on the new
                  > distillers page of the setup. Thanks again for the reply.
                  >
                  > S! Yukon
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dean Thomas wrote:
                  >
                  >> Hi Yukon
                  >> I assume you are using a reflux still ?
                  >> Have you checked your packing ? The packing will more than likely be
                  >> your main culprit.
                  >> How are you heating your boiler ?
                  >>
                  >> Dean.



                  Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                  FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                  Yahoo! Groups Links










                  ---------------------------------
                  On Yahoo!7
                  Answers: Real people ask and answer questions on any topic.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                • waljaco
                  Glass beads might give too much obstruction - cut copper tubing did not work very well for me. I found on my 25mm extension that rolling structured copper
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 6, 2006
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                    Glass beads might give too much obstruction - cut copper tubing did
                    not work very well for me. I found on my 25mm extension that rolling
                    structured copper scrubbers/scourers and using them lenghwise in an
                    uninsulated 25mm column worked OK.
                    wal
                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "yukon656" <yukon656@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello and thank you for the reply. The diam of the column is in fact
                    > 25mm instead of 20mm. The scrubbie is verified ss but may indeed be
                    > to tight. I am going to remove it and replace with 10mm glass beads.
                    > Also am building a much more capable condenser. Thank you all again
                    > for the ideas and advice it is much appriciated.
                    >
                    > !S
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > 25mm (1 inch) diameter columns are easily flooded. You need to
                    > control
                    > > the power much more and pack very lightly.
                    > > wal
                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Bugal <bwyze44@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Yukon,
                    > > >
                    > > > I am not an engineer but rather try and take a common sense
                    > > approach to problems.
                    > > >
                    > > > Am I right in assuming your column is only 20 mm diameter? If
                    > so,
                    > > that is less than an inch in diameter. That could cause a pressure
                    > > back-up where surging could occur due to the pressure of
                    > the "steam"
                    > > rising out of the boiler in volume and being restricted down to a
                    > > small output. Some of this pressure would have to hang around the
                    > > boiler until the pressure became so great, it brute forces it's
                    > way up
                    > > the column or "surges". This pressure could cause the SS packing
                    > to
                    > > compact due to the size (remember that some things expand when
                    > heated
                    > > - including air).
                    > > >
                    > > > Some experts warn of "channeling" with small diameter columns
                    > but
                    > > it sounds like you are getting a pressure back-up due to the
                    > potential
                    > > packing concentration under pressure due to the diameter of the
                    > column.
                    > > >
                    > > > Sorry I cannot explain this mathematically but that would be
                    > the
                    > > first thing I would look at.
                    > > >
                    > > > Have you tried another type of loose packing such as raschig
                    > rings
                    > > or stainless steel ball-bearings? Either of these do not compact
                    > > under pressure
                    > > >
                    > > > Best regards,
                    > > >
                    > > > Bwyze
                    >
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