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Re: [Distillers] Re: MICIO I NEED YOUR GRAPPA ADVICE

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  • Robert Thomas
    I beg to differ Sven, Although I don t have multiple thermometers, I can see a very good reason for having at least a second one. A head/take-off therm is
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 2, 2006
      I beg to differ Sven,
      Although I don't have multiple thermometers, I can see a very good
      reason for having at least a second one. A head/take-off therm is
      obvious. I t tells you what the boiling point of your product is, and
      therefore an indication of it's purity.
      Having a thermometer in the vapour space above the boiler tells you
      what the temp gradient is along the column. To take extreme examples;
      if your boiler temp (vapour) is 100 degC then your column is maxed out.
      if your boiler temp (vapour) is at (say) 80 and your head is at (say)
      79 then the whole of your column is refining the fraction between those
      two temps: very efficient in therms of purity, lousy in terms of speed.
      There is definately valuable info to be gained by having the boiler
      thermometer.

      That said, it is not necessary or foolproof, and perhaps should be
      avoided be beginners for those reasons alone.
      You decide
      Cheers,
      Rob.


      --- Sven Pfitt <the_gimp98@...> wrote:

      > I bow to your experience on points speciffic to making Grappa, but
      > take exception to your comment on thermometers.
      >
      > The only point that a thermometer is really useful at is the vapor
      > temp as it reaches the swan's neck (in a pot still).
      >
      > Monitoring this tells you everything you need to know about the
      > process, including the temp of the liquid, which really is irrelevent
      >
      > because you can do nothing to change it but wait for the
      > concentration to shift. Adding power does not change the liquid temp.
      >
      > It only makes it boil more vigorously, and gives you a greater flow
      > of product.
      >
      > It is possible to run without a thermometer at all, but it takes
      > closer monitoring and experience.
      >
      > Take your output in small samples of say 5% of the expected output
      > until you reach 25%, collect in a single vessle until you reach60% of
      >
      > your expected volume and switch back to 5% samples.
      >
      > Don't mix them until they are all chilled below 25C/75F. Sample
      > carefully and blend to reach your objective.
      >
      > Having a beginner try to pay attention to three thermometers will
      > just confuse them.
      >
      > Best wishes.
      >
      > Sven
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
      > <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi, Dan.
      > > Nice to hear you.
      > >
      > > Answering to your post:
      > >
      > > > of my second wine and was stunned at the good results. The first
      > > half
      > > > gallon was fragrant, smooth, really wonderful---far more
      > > enjoyable,
      > > > in my opinion,
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I'm glad for this.
      > ....snip....
      > >
      > > Micio, I do not have a
      > > > thermometer on my still so I am doing this the old fashioned way,
      >
      > > by
      > > > nose and flavor.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > What happens if you are cold or having a flue?
      > > No, you must have at least three termometers: the head termometer,
      > > the first vapour termometer, the boiler termometer. If you have a
      > > pot still you can avoid to have the first vapour termometer, but
      > > it's necessary to have the other ones.
      > >
      > ....snip....>
      > > micio felice
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      Cheers,
      Rob.

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    • Sven Pfitt
      polenta222 Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:55 pm Subject: MICIO I NEED YOUR GRAPPA ADVICE polenta222 Micio, several months ago I had a
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 2, 2006
        "polenta222" <polenta222@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:55 pm
        Subject: MICIO I NEED YOUR GRAPPA ADVICE polenta222

        Micio, several months ago I had a traditional 30-liter copper pot
        still sent from my family's village in Northern Italy. "

        1)Polenta was talking about a pot still.


        > Having a thermometer in the vapour space above the boiler tells you
        > what the temp gradient is along the column.

        I dissagree.

        The temperature gradient in a properly insulated column in in
        equalibrium is so small that we can not properly measure it without
        spending thousands of dollars on high precision thermometers.

        The boiler temp is irrelivent if you have a properly insulated and
        equaliberated collumn.

        If you don't, then all the thermometers in the world are useless.

        If you have a vapor temp of 100C in your boiler you aren't distilling
        alcohol water mix, you are boiling water.

        On the other hand, if you are in to tinkering and just wat to see
        what you can do with multiple thremometers, more power to you.

        Sven

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I beg to differ Sven,
        > Although I don't have multiple thermometers, I can see a very good
        > reason for having at least a second one. A head/take-off therm is
        > obvious. I t tells you what the boiling point of your product is,
        and
        > therefore an indication of it's purity.
        > Having a thermometer in the vapour space above the boiler tells you
        > what the temp gradient is along the column. To take extreme
        examples;
        > if your boiler temp (vapour) is 100 degC then your column is maxed
        out.
        > if your boiler temp (vapour) is at (say) 80 and your head is at
        (say)
        > 79 then the whole of your column is refining the fraction between
        those
        > two temps: very efficient in therms of purity, lousy in terms of
        speed.
        > There is definately valuable info to be gained by having the boiler
        > thermometer.
        >
        > That said, it is not necessary or foolproof, and perhaps should be
        > avoided be beginners for those reasons alone.
        > You decide
        > Cheers,
        > Rob.
        >
        >
        > --- Sven Pfitt <the_gimp98@...> wrote:
        >
        > > I bow to your experience on points speciffic to making Grappa,
        but
        > > take exception to your comment on thermometers.
        > >
        > > The only point that a thermometer is really useful at is the
        vapor
        > > temp as it reaches the swan's neck (in a pot still).
        > >
        > > Monitoring this tells you everything you need to know about the
        > > process, including the temp of the liquid, which really is
        irrelevent
        > >
        > > because you can do nothing to change it but wait for the
        > > concentration to shift. Adding power does not change the liquid
        temp.
        > >
        > > It only makes it boil more vigorously, and gives you a greater
        flow
        > > of product.
        > >
        > > It is possible to run without a thermometer at all, but it takes
        > > closer monitoring and experience.
        > >
        > > Take your output in small samples of say 5% of the expected
        output
        > > until you reach 25%, collect in a single vessle until you
        reach60% of
        > >
        > > your expected volume and switch back to 5% samples.
        > >
        > > Don't mix them until they are all chilled below 25C/75F. Sample
        > > carefully and blend to reach your objective.
        > >
        > > Having a beginner try to pay attention to three thermometers will
        > > just confuse them.
        > >
        > > Best wishes.
        > >
        > > Sven
        > >
        > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
        > > <miciofelice2003@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi, Dan.
        > > > Nice to hear you.
        > > >
        > > > Answering to your post:
        > > >
        > > > > of my second wine and was stunned at the good results. The
        first
        > > > half
        > > > > gallon was fragrant, smooth, really wonderful---far more
        > > > enjoyable,
        > > > > in my opinion,
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I'm glad for this.
        > > ....snip....
        > > >
        > > > Micio, I do not have a
        > > > > thermometer on my still so I am doing this the old fashioned
        way,
        > >
        > > > by
        > > > > nose and flavor.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > What happens if you are cold or having a flue?
        > > > No, you must have at least three termometers: the head
        termometer,
        > > > the first vapour termometer, the boiler termometer. If you have
        a
        > > > pot still you can avoid to have the first vapour termometer,
        but
        > > > it's necessary to have the other ones.
        > > >
        > > ....snip....>
        > > > micio felice
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Rob.
        >
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        >
      • Robert Thomas
        ... Point taken! and there fore my points are relevant. ... But not in a grappa still. Or indead any badly insulated still. Or any still when you reach then
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 2, 2006
          --- Sven Pfitt <the_gimp98@...> wrote:

          > "polenta222" <polenta222@...>
          > Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:55 pm
          > Subject: MICIO I NEED YOUR GRAPPA ADVICE polenta222
          >
          > Micio, several months ago I had a traditional 30-liter copper pot
          > still sent from my family's village in Northern Italy. "
          >
          > 1)Polenta was talking about a pot still.
          Point taken! and there fore my points are relevant.

          >
          >
          > > Having a thermometer in the vapour space above the boiler tells you
          > > what the temp gradient is along the column.
          >
          > I dissagree.
          >
          > The temperature gradient in a properly insulated column in in
          > equalibrium is so small that we can not properly measure it without
          > spending thousands of dollars on high precision thermometers.
          But not in a grappa still. Or indead any badly insulated still.
          Or any still when you reach then end of the viable distillable
          fraction.

          >
          > The boiler temp is irrelivent if you have a properly insulated and
          > equaliberated collumn.
          >
          > If you don't, then all the thermometers in the world are useless.
          >
          > If you have a vapor temp of 100C in your boiler you aren't distilling
          sorry Sven, I was being extreme to make my point.

          >
          > alcohol water mix, you are boiling water.
          >
          > On the other hand, if you are in to tinkering and just wat to see
          > what you can do with multiple thremometers, more power to you.

          Given a sterting abv of lets say 10% and distilling to 90%, surely you
          cannot argue that the temp difference is (a) measurable, and (b)
          significant? (99degC vs. 79degC).
          As this difference decreases, so your inaccuracies increase.

          AND NO, I'm not saying that the boiling point is variable. What I'm
          saying is, if the boiler vapour is nearing 99 then the column is empty
          of useful ethanol.

          Cheers
          Rob.


          Cheers,
          Rob.

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        • miciofelice2003
          Hi Sven. In a pot still the bottom column thermometer is useless: a pot still doesn t has column. But my experience suggest that is very useful to have this
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 2, 2006
            Hi Sven.


            In a pot still the bottom column thermometer is useless: a pot still
            doesn't has column.


            But my experience suggest that is very useful to have this when you
            have a column.
            I have to say that I was talking about my column: a very simple
            column, made for grappa (that means a spirit full of aroma and not
            so refined and pure as making vodka and gin).

            When I'm in the middle of the "heart" the difference of temperature
            bottom/head column is about 8-9 °C.
            That means the "heart" is evaporating and condensing. I rimember
            what a "guru" of home distilling is used to say: "the alcohol must
            be manipulated, as the bread".

            My column, and all the columns to make grappa in industrial
            distillers, is necked, without insulation because must have an heat
            exchange with the external.

            If I insulate my column I'll collect an "heavier" spirit, richer in
            components "tail-oriented", and I don't want it.

            About the boiler thermometer I have to say that the boiler
            thermometer is very useful: Morganfield wrote, some weeks ago, a
            good post (I don't remember the number of it, sorry)about it.
            I recognized in those words my behaviour in consulting the boiler
            thermometer.

            For example, when the head column temperature is 85 - 87 °C (and so
            I'm in the middle of hearth collecting), the boiler temperature is
            about 95 °C, in full tails zone.

            And those tails are evaporating, believe me.

            What avoid me to collect tails on my distillate is the capacity of
            my column to knock down those tails. The column get this by cooling
            the vapours.

            In my humble opinion we have a completely different distilling way
            because our spirits are different.

            You look for the purity of spirit, I look for aroma, flavours, and
            so on.


            ciao a tutti

            micio felice



            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > "polenta222" <polenta222@>
            > Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:55 pm
            > Subject: MICIO I NEED YOUR GRAPPA ADVICE polenta222
            >
            > Micio, several months ago I had a traditional 30-liter copper pot
            > still sent from my family's village in Northern Italy. "
            >
            > 1)Polenta was talking about a pot still.
            >
            >
            > > Having a thermometer in the vapour space above the boiler tells
            you
            > > what the temp gradient is along the column.
            >
            > I dissagree.
            >
            > The temperature gradient in a properly insulated column in in
            > equalibrium is so small that we can not properly measure it
            without
            > spending thousands of dollars on high precision thermometers.
            >
            > The boiler temp is irrelivent if you have a properly insulated and
            > equaliberated collumn.
            >
            > If you don't, then all the thermometers in the world are useless.
            >
            > If you have a vapor temp of 100C in your boiler you aren't
            distilling
            > alcohol water mix, you are boiling water.
            >
            > On the other hand, if you are in to tinkering and just wat to see
            > what you can do with multiple thremometers, more power to you.
            >
            > Sven
            >
          • miciofelice2003
            ... Not capacity . I wanted to mean ability . Sorry for it micio felice ... tells ... and ... see
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 2, 2006
              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
              <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Sven.
              >
              >
              > What avoid me to collect tails on my distillate is the capacity of
              > my column to knock down those tails. >
              >


              Not "capacity". I wanted to mean "ability" .


              Sorry for it

              micio felice
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > "polenta222" <polenta222@>
              > > Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:55 pm
              > > Subject: MICIO I NEED YOUR GRAPPA ADVICE polenta222
              > >
              > > Micio, several months ago I had a traditional 30-liter copper pot
              > > still sent from my family's village in Northern Italy. "
              > >
              > > 1)Polenta was talking about a pot still.
              > >
              > >
              > > > Having a thermometer in the vapour space above the boiler
              tells
              > you
              > > > what the temp gradient is along the column.
              > >
              > > I dissagree.
              > >
              > > The temperature gradient in a properly insulated column in in
              > > equalibrium is so small that we can not properly measure it
              > without
              > > spending thousands of dollars on high precision thermometers.
              > >
              > > The boiler temp is irrelivent if you have a properly insulated
              and
              > > equaliberated collumn.
              > >
              > > If you don't, then all the thermometers in the world are useless.
              > >
              > > If you have a vapor temp of 100C in your boiler you aren't
              > distilling
              > > alcohol water mix, you are boiling water.
              > >
              > > On the other hand, if you are in to tinkering and just wat to
              see
              > > what you can do with multiple thremometers, more power to you.
              > >
              > > Sven
              > >
              >
            • miciofelice2003
              ... Not capacity . I wanted to mean ability . Sorry for it micio felice ... tells ... and ... see
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 2, 2006
                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Sven.
                >
                >
                > What avoid me to collect tails on my distillate is the capacity of
                > my column to knock down those tails. >
                >


                Not "capacity". I wanted to mean "ability" .


                Sorry for it

                micio felice
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > "polenta222" <polenta222@>
                > > Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:55 pm
                > > Subject: MICIO I NEED YOUR GRAPPA ADVICE polenta222
                > >
                > > Micio, several months ago I had a traditional 30-liter copper pot
                > > still sent from my family's village in Northern Italy. "
                > >
                > > 1)Polenta was talking about a pot still.
                > >
                > >
                > > > Having a thermometer in the vapour space above the boiler
                tells
                > you
                > > > what the temp gradient is along the column.
                > >
                > > I dissagree.
                > >
                > > The temperature gradient in a properly insulated column in in
                > > equalibrium is so small that we can not properly measure it
                > without
                > > spending thousands of dollars on high precision thermometers.
                > >
                > > The boiler temp is irrelivent if you have a properly insulated
                and
                > > equaliberated collumn.
                > >
                > > If you don't, then all the thermometers in the world are useless.
                > >
                > > If you have a vapor temp of 100C in your boiler you aren't
                > distilling
                > > alcohol water mix, you are boiling water.
                > >
                > > On the other hand, if you are in to tinkering and just wat to
                see
                > > what you can do with multiple thremometers, more power to you.
                > >
                > > Sven
                > >
                >
              • king pin
                Dan, I m very pleased to see you had success in your grappa endeavor!! I ve been away for so long I had to search through a few thousand posts to see how you
                Message 7 of 10 , May 2, 2006
                  Dan, I'm very pleased to see you had success in your grappa endeavor!! I've been away for so long I had to search through a few thousand posts to see how you made out :D

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