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Re: Distillation - Confectioner's Recipes

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  • waljaco
    The article uses the term pure proof spirit . I assume this means 50%abv (US system)? wal Useful concise compilation of 19th century recipes.
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 1, 2005
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      The article uses the term "pure proof spirit". I assume this means
      50%abv (US system)?
      wal
      Useful concise compilation of 19th century recipes.



      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
      >
      > There was a time when Bakers were more than just bread & biscuit
      > makers.
      > Enjoy.
      >
      > Slainte!
      > regards Harry
      > ------------------------
      >
      >
      > Extracted from...
      >
      > Title: The Complete Confectioner, Pastry-Cook, and Baker...
      > Author: Parkinson
      > Publisher: Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott & Co.
      >
      > WITH ADDITIONS AND ALTERATIONS,
      > BY PARKINSON,
      > Practical Confectioner, Chestnut Street.
      > PHILADELPHIA:
      > J. B. LIPPINCOTT & CO.
      > 1864.
      >
      > Entered, according to the Act of Congress, in the year 1849, by
      > W. A. LEARY.
      > in the clerk's office of the district court of the United States in
      > and the eastern district of Pennsylvania.
      > -----------------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS.
      >
      > Spirits and alcohol are obtained by the distillation of fermented
      > articles. The peculiar taste of each depends on the essential oil of
      > the article from which it is prepared being held in solution:
      > therefore, by knowing the nature of its oil, alcohol may be made to
      > imitate any desired spirit. A few drops of nitric ether added to
      > malt spirit will impart to it the flavour of cognac brandy; and two
      > scruples of benzoic acid, mixed with one quart of rum, will give it
      > the taste of arrack. Brandy is generally recommended for the use of
      > the confectioner in making spirits for liqueurs, but a superior
      > article may be made with less expense from rectified spirits of
      > wine, or pure spirit which has neither taste nor smell, as the
      > spirit afterwards drawn will only have the flavour of the articles
      > with which it is required to be impregnated. Rectified spirits may
      > be obtained from the dregs of beer, cider, ale or wine, suitable for
      > any purpose, as well as from brandy.
      >
      >
      > Spirits rise in the still with less heat than watery infusions,
      > therefore it is best to distil by means of the bain-marie, that is,
      > by the still being placed in another vessel containing water. This
      > method is more safe, as it prevents accidents, and the articles from
      > being burnt.
      >
      >
      > Common spirits may be deprived of their impurities by mixing them
      > with an equal quantity of water, and distilling them by a gentle
      > heat, or in a water-bath. Continue the operation until the phlegm
      > arises, which will appear milky and is of a nauseous taste. A great
      > quantity of the oil which it retained will remain in the water. If
      > the spirit was very impure, a second rectification may be necessary,
      > as before. A very pure and tasteless spirit may be obtained by
      > mixing with the spirit, after rectification, one-fourth of its
      > weight of pure dry salt of wormwood or tartar. Let it stand a little
      > time in a gentle heat, and distil in the bain-marie. A small portion
      > of alum being added
      >
      >
      > prevents any of the salt being brought over with the spirit. The
      > result is pure alcohol. It may be reduced to proof spirit by mixing
      > twenty ounces of alcohol with seventeen of water, by weight.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • waljaco
      The section on SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS suggests a triple distillation, with the addition of salt of wormwood prior to the final distillation to which alum is
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 3, 2005
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        The section on SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS suggests a triple distillation,
        with the addition of 'salt of wormwood' prior to the final
        distillation to which 'alum' is also added.

        'Salt of wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash') is
        potassium carbonate K2CO3.

        'Alum' is either Potassium aluminium sulphate or aluminium sulphate.

        wal


        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > The article uses the term "pure proof spirit". I assume this means
        > 50%abv (US system)?
        > wal
        > Useful concise compilation of 19th century recipes.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > There was a time when Bakers were more than just bread & biscuit
        > > makers.
        > > Enjoy.
        > >
        > > Slainte!
        > > regards Harry
        > > ------------------------
        > >
        > >
        > > Extracted from...
        > >
        > > Title: The Complete Confectioner, Pastry-Cook, and Baker...
        > > Author: Parkinson
        > > Publisher: Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott & Co.
        > >
        > > WITH ADDITIONS AND ALTERATIONS,
        > > BY PARKINSON,
        > > Practical Confectioner, Chestnut Street.
        > > PHILADELPHIA:
        > > J. B. LIPPINCOTT & CO.
        > > 1864.
        > >
        > > Entered, according to the Act of Congress, in the year 1849, by
        > > W. A. LEARY.
        > > in the clerk's office of the district court of the United States in
        > > and the eastern district of Pennsylvania.
        > > -----------------------------------------
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > > SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS.
        > >
        > > Spirits and alcohol are obtained by the distillation of fermented
        > > articles. The peculiar taste of each depends on the essential oil of
        > > the article from which it is prepared being held in solution:
        > > therefore, by knowing the nature of its oil, alcohol may be made to
        > > imitate any desired spirit. A few drops of nitric ether added to
        > > malt spirit will impart to it the flavour of cognac brandy; and two
        > > scruples of benzoic acid, mixed with one quart of rum, will give it
        > > the taste of arrack. Brandy is generally recommended for the use of
        > > the confectioner in making spirits for liqueurs, but a superior
        > > article may be made with less expense from rectified spirits of
        > > wine, or pure spirit which has neither taste nor smell, as the
        > > spirit afterwards drawn will only have the flavour of the articles
        > > with which it is required to be impregnated. Rectified spirits may
        > > be obtained from the dregs of beer, cider, ale or wine, suitable for
        > > any purpose, as well as from brandy.
        > >
        > >
        > > Spirits rise in the still with less heat than watery infusions,
        > > therefore it is best to distil by means of the bain-marie, that is,
        > > by the still being placed in another vessel containing water. This
        > > method is more safe, as it prevents accidents, and the articles from
        > > being burnt.
        > >
        > >
        > > Common spirits may be deprived of their impurities by mixing them
        > > with an equal quantity of water, and distilling them by a gentle
        > > heat, or in a water-bath. Continue the operation until the phlegm
        > > arises, which will appear milky and is of a nauseous taste. A great
        > > quantity of the oil which it retained will remain in the water. If
        > > the spirit was very impure, a second rectification may be necessary,
        > > as before. A very pure and tasteless spirit may be obtained by
        > > mixing with the spirit, after rectification, one-fourth of its
        > > weight of pure dry salt of wormwood or tartar. Let it stand a little
        > > time in a gentle heat, and distil in the bain-marie. A small portion
        > > of alum being added
        > >
        > >
        > > prevents any of the salt being brought over with the spirit. The
        > > result is pure alcohol. It may be reduced to proof spirit by mixing
        > > twenty ounces of alcohol with seventeen of water, by weight.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Harry
        ... sulphate. ... The Alum of previous centuries was Potassium-alum aka native alum, Chemical Formula: KAl(SO4)2·12(H2O). Found worldwide but mainly
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 4, 2005
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          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
          >
          > The section on SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS suggests a triple distillation,
          > with the addition of 'salt of wormwood' prior to the final
          > distillation to which 'alum' is also added.
          >
          > 'Salt of wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash') is
          > potassium carbonate K2CO3.
          >
          > 'Alum' is either Potassium aluminium sulphate or aluminium
          sulphate.
          >
          > wal



          The 'Alum' of previous centuries was Potassium-alum aka native alum,
          Chemical Formula: KAl(SO4)2·12(H2O). Found worldwide but mainly
          Vesuvius, Italy and Alum Cave, Tennessee, USA. It was used in
          everything because of its flocculant properties. It removes many
          impurities in this way and is also a natural deodorant, in that it
          absorbs gases. It is still available as a food grade item from many
          sources. One I found here. ..
          http://tinyurl.com/azqt2

          The papermaker's alum in use today is not true alum, but either
          aluminum sulfate (Al2(SO4)3·14H2O), (Al2(SO4)3·18H2O), or a mixture
          of these hydrates, and is manufactured by treating pulverized
          bauxite with 80% sulfuric acid at 110° C., the resulting solution
          being purified, concentrated, and allowed to solidify. It is soluble
          in water, and, while slightly alkaline in the dry form, it is
          decidedly acidic when dissolved in water.


          Slainte!
          regards Harry
          Moderator
        • italiandistiller
          I would assume this method will produce extremely clean spirit! A good source for the Alum, as well as absinthe herb is:
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 5, 2005
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            I would assume this method will produce extremely clean spirit! A
            good source for the Alum, as well as absinthe herb is:

            http://www.shamanshop.net/store/proddetail.cfm/ItemID/15298.0/Category
            ID/15500.0/SubCatID/3620.0/file.htm

            The Potassium Carbonate is provided in bulk by Arm&Hammer for
            livestock, so if you're near a feedstore that carries it you're set,
            otherwise try ebay.

            Bob

            > >
            > > The section on SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS suggests a triple
            distillation,
            > > with the addition of 'salt of wormwood' prior to the final
            > > distillation to which 'alum' is also added.
            > >
            > > 'Salt of wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash') is
            > > potassium carbonate K2CO3.
            > >
            > > 'Alum' is either Potassium aluminium sulphate or aluminium
            > sulphate.
            > >
            > > wal
            >
            >
            >
            > The 'Alum' of previous centuries was Potassium-alum aka native alum,
            > Chemical Formula: KAl(SO4)2•12(H2O). Found worldwide but mainly
            > Vesuvius, Italy and Alum Cave, Tennessee, USA. It was used in
            > everything because of its flocculant properties. It removes many
            > impurities in this way and is also a natural deodorant, in that it
            > absorbs gases. It is still available as a food grade item from many
            > sources. One I found here. ..
            > http://tinyurl.com/azqt2
            >
            > The papermaker's alum in use today is not true alum, but either
            > aluminum sulfate (Al2(SO4)3•14H2O), (Al2(SO4)3•18H2O), or a mixture
            > of these hydrates, and is manufactured by treating pulverized
            > bauxite with 80% sulfuric acid at 110° C., the resulting solution
            > being purified, concentrated, and allowed to solidify. It is soluble
            > in water, and, while slightly alkaline in the dry form, it is
            > decidedly acidic when dissolved in water.
            >
            >
            > Slainte!
            > regards Harry
            > Moderator
            >
          • italiandistiller
            I m currently trying this method and doing the 2nd distillation with the addition of some Potassium Carbonate & Alum to clean the spirit. THE RESULT: The heads
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 15, 2005
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              I'm currently trying this method and doing the 2nd distillation with
              the addition of some Potassium Carbonate & Alum to clean the spirit.
              THE RESULT: The heads smells like household ammonia! The middle of
              the run now running at 78.2C has less of an ammonia smell, but it is
              very pungent. It's definitely not drinkable.

              I'm hoping the final, 3rd distillation results in the odorless pure
              spirit promised. I'd hate to have to delegate these 4 gallons of
              spirit to cleaning the barbeque.

              Some numbers: The amount of Potassium Carbonate suggested calculates
              out to be 225 grams/liter using 50% abv spirit. In practice this
              comes to about 2-1/2 cups of K2CO3 per gallon of the spirit. To be
              conservative, I cut the K2CO3 to 1 cup/gallon for this test. I added
              about 1 tsp of the Alum (potassium aluminum sulphate) per gallon of
              50% abv spirit. I'm using sugar mash/turbo yeast and a reflux column.

              Cin Cin!

              Bob


              >The section on SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS suggests a triple distillation,
              >with the addition of 'salt of wormwood' prior to the final
              >distillation to which 'alum' is also added.
              >
              >'Salt of wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash') is
              >potassium carbonate K2CO3.
              >
              >'Alum' is either Potassium aluminium sulphate or aluminium sulphate.
              >
              >wal
              >>--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> The article uses the term "pure proof spirit". I assume this means
              >> 50%abv (US system)?
              >> wal
              >> Useful concise compilation of 19th century recipes.

              <snip>
              >> A very pure and tasteless spirit may be obtained by
              > > mixing with the spirit, after rectification, one-fourth of its
              > > weight of pure dry salt of wormwood or tartar. Let it stand a
              little
              > > time in a gentle heat, and distil in the bain-marie. A small
              portion
              > > of alum being added
              > >
            • waljaco
              Russian sites recommend 8-10 frams of sodium or potassium chloride/litre. Stir and allow to stand for 30 minutes. Then add 2 grams potassium permanganate/litre
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 16, 2005
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                Russian sites recommend 8-10 frams of sodium or potassium
                chloride/litre. Stir and allow to stand for 30 minutes. Then add 2
                grams potassium permanganate/litre and allow to stand for 12 hours.
                Decant and redistill. Before a triple distillation add 200 ml of
                fresh (skim?) milk/litre. Allow to stand for 30 minutes, add water and
                redistill.
                Alum? This is the first time I have seen it used. The literature says
                it is used to clear turbid liquids.
                wal
                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm currently trying this method and doing the 2nd distillation with
                > the addition of some Potassium Carbonate & Alum to clean the spirit.
                > THE RESULT: The heads smells like household ammonia! The middle of
                > the run now running at 78.2C has less of an ammonia smell, but it is
                > very pungent. It's definitely not drinkable.
                >
                > I'm hoping the final, 3rd distillation results in the odorless pure
                > spirit promised. I'd hate to have to delegate these 4 gallons of
                > spirit to cleaning the barbeque.
                >
                > Some numbers: The amount of Potassium Carbonate suggested calculates
                > out to be 225 grams/liter using 50% abv spirit. In practice this
                > comes to about 2-1/2 cups of K2CO3 per gallon of the spirit. To be
                > conservative, I cut the K2CO3 to 1 cup/gallon for this test. I added
                > about 1 tsp of the Alum (potassium aluminum sulphate) per gallon of
                > 50% abv spirit. I'm using sugar mash/turbo yeast and a reflux column.
                >
                > Cin Cin!
                >
                > Bob
                >
                >
                > >The section on SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS suggests a triple distillation,
                > >with the addition of 'salt of wormwood' prior to the final
                > >distillation to which 'alum' is also added.
                > >
                > >'Salt of wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash') is
                > >potassium carbonate K2CO3.
                > >
                > >'Alum' is either Potassium aluminium sulphate or aluminium sulphate.
                > >
                > >wal
                > >>--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> The article uses the term "pure proof spirit". I assume this means
                > >> 50%abv (US system)?
                > >> wal
                > >> Useful concise compilation of 19th century recipes.
                >
                > <snip>
                > >> A very pure and tasteless spirit may be obtained by
                > > > mixing with the spirit, after rectification, one-fourth of its
                > > > weight of pure dry salt of wormwood or tartar. Let it stand a
                > little
                > > > time in a gentle heat, and distil in the bain-marie. A small
                > portion
                > > > of alum being added
                > > >
                >
              • miciofelice2003
                Hi to everybody. Sorry to be so polemical, but I m wondering if it s so difficult to distil only good stuff. I learned on my skin that if you distil not good
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 16, 2005
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                  Hi to everybody.

                  Sorry to be so polemical, but I'm wondering if it's so difficult to
                  distil only good stuff.

                  I learned "on my skin" that if you distil not good stuff you'll get
                  only ... bad stuff: rubbish in, rubbish out.

                  And so you have to become crazy to correct your mistakes, adding some
                  chemicals, and so on.

                  Really, I learned from my personnel experience that it's better not
                  to accept any compromise: I got success in correcting my mistakes but
                  it's better to avoid to do any of it's.

                  So, please, learn by other's people mistakes (including me): use
                  only
                  good, fresh stuff and add nothing else than your experience,
                  passion, and love for what you are doing.

                  ciao to everybody and... Merry Christmas by

                  micio felice



                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Russian sites recommend 8-10 frams of sodium or potassium
                  > chloride/litre. Stir and allow to stand for 30 minutes. Then add 2
                  > grams potassium permanganate/litre and allow to stand for 12 hours.
                  > Decant and redistill. Before a triple distillation add 200 ml of
                  > fresh (skim?) milk/litre. Allow to stand for 30 minutes, add water
                  and
                  > redistill.
                  > Alum? This is the first time I have seen it used. The literature
                  says
                  > it is used to clear turbid liquids.
                  > wal
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                  > <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I'm currently trying this method and doing the 2nd distillation
                  with
                  > > the addition of some Potassium Carbonate & Alum to clean the
                  spirit.
                  > > THE RESULT: The heads smells like household ammonia! The middle
                  of
                  > > the run now running at 78.2C has less of an ammonia smell, but it
                  is
                  > > very pungent. It's definitely not drinkable.
                  > >
                  > > I'm hoping the final, 3rd distillation results in the odorless
                  pure
                  > > spirit promised. I'd hate to have to delegate these 4 gallons of
                  > > spirit to cleaning the barbeque.
                  > >
                  > > Some numbers: The amount of Potassium Carbonate suggested
                  calculates
                  > > out to be 225 grams/liter using 50% abv spirit. In practice this
                  > > comes to about 2-1/2 cups of K2CO3 per gallon of the spirit. To
                  be
                  > > conservative, I cut the K2CO3 to 1 cup/gallon for this test. I
                  added
                  > > about 1 tsp of the Alum (potassium aluminum sulphate) per gallon
                  of
                  > > 50% abv spirit. I'm using sugar mash/turbo yeast and a reflux
                  column.
                  > >
                  > > Cin Cin!
                  > >
                  > > Bob
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >The section on SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS suggests a triple
                  distillation,
                  > > >with the addition of 'salt of wormwood' prior to the final
                  > > >distillation to which 'alum' is also added.
                  > > >
                  > > >'Salt of wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash') is
                  > > >potassium carbonate K2CO3.
                  > > >
                  > > >'Alum' is either Potassium aluminium sulphate or aluminium
                  sulphate.
                  > > >
                  > > >wal
                  > > >>--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...>
                  wrote:
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >> The article uses the term "pure proof spirit". I assume this
                  means
                  > > >> 50%abv (US system)?
                  > > >> wal
                  > > >> Useful concise compilation of 19th century recipes.
                  > >
                  > > <snip>
                  > > >> A very pure and tasteless spirit may be obtained by
                  > > > > mixing with the spirit, after rectification, one-fourth of
                  its
                  > > > > weight of pure dry salt of wormwood or tartar. Let it stand a
                  > > little
                  > > > > time in a gentle heat, and distil in the bain-marie. A small
                  > > portion
                  > > > > of alum being added
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Robert Thomas
                  Hi all, I m typing here for two reasons: 1. to Micio, there are lots of ways of chemically removing everything except alcohol, if that is what is wanted.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 16, 2005
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                    Hi all,
                    I'm typing here for two reasons:
                    1. to Micio, there are lots of ways of chemically removing everything
                    except alcohol, if that is what is wanted. Obviously, if your grappa
                    came out tasting (?) like neutral alcohol, you would be unhappy. But if
                    you are going to flavour after, then maybe it is a way to go (let's say
                    for gin). I think, however, that you are right. It really isn't
                    difficult to get a clean fermentation. After that it is down to still
                    design and experience. I would much rather invest in getting the still
                    perfect than invest in chemicals that need to be bought every time.
                    2. the second reason is that I want to time the arrival of this post!
                    People must think I just answer messages after everyone else has said
                    what I do. not true, I seem to have a very slow line somewhere!
                    time is now 13:37 GMT.
                    Cheers,
                    Rob.


                    --- miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:

                    > Hi to everybody.
                    >
                    > Sorry to be so polemical, but I'm wondering if it's so difficult to
                    > distil only good stuff.
                    >
                    > I learned "on my skin" that if you distil not good stuff you'll get
                    > only ... bad stuff: rubbish in, rubbish out.
                    >
                    > So, please, learn by other's people mistakes (including me): use only
                    >
                    > good, fresh stuff and add nothing else than your experience, passion,
                    >
                    > and love for what you are doing.
                    >
                    > ciao to everybody and... Merry Christmas by
                    >
                    > micio felice
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Russian sites recommend 8-10 frams of sodium or potassium
                    > > chloride/litre. Stir and allow to stand for 30 minutes. Then add 2
                    > > grams potassium permanganate/litre and allow to stand for 12 hours.
                    > > Decant and redistill. Before a triple distillation add 200 ml of
                    > > fresh (skim?) milk/litre. Allow to stand for 30 minutes, add water
                    > and
                    > > redistill.
                    > > Alum? This is the first time I have seen it used. The literature
                    > says
                    > > it is used to clear turbid liquids.
                    > > wal
                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                    > > <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm currently trying this method and doing the 2nd distillation
                    > with
                    > > > the addition of some Potassium Carbonate & Alum to clean the
                    > spirit.
                    > > > THE RESULT: The heads smells like household ammonia! The middle
                    > of
                    > > > the run now running at 78.2C has less of an ammonia smell, but it
                    >
                    > is
                    > > > very pungent. It's definitely not drinkable.
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm hoping the final, 3rd distillation results in the odorless
                    > pure
                    > > > spirit promised. I'd hate to have to delegate these 4 gallons of
                    > > > spirit to cleaning the barbeque.
                    > > >
                    > > > Some numbers: The amount of Potassium Carbonate suggested
                    > calculates
                    > > > out to be 225 grams/liter using 50% abv spirit. In practice this
                    > > > comes to about 2-1/2 cups of K2CO3 per gallon of the spirit. To
                    > be
                    > > > conservative, I cut the K2CO3 to 1 cup/gallon for this test. I
                    > added
                    > > > about 1 tsp of the Alum (potassium aluminum sulphate) per gallon
                    > of
                    > > > 50% abv spirit. I'm using sugar mash/turbo yeast and a reflux
                    > column.
                    > > >
                    > > > Cin Cin!
                    > > >
                    > > > Bob
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >The section on SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS suggests a triple
                    > distillation,
                    > > > >with the addition of 'salt of wormwood' prior to the final
                    > > > >distillation to which 'alum' is also added.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >'Salt of wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash') is
                    > > > >potassium carbonate K2CO3.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >'Alum' is either Potassium aluminium sulphate or aluminium
                    > sulphate.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >wal
                    > > > >>--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> The article uses the term "pure proof spirit". I assume this
                    > means
                    > > > >> 50%abv (US system)?
                    > > > >> wal
                    > > > >> Useful concise compilation of 19th century recipes.
                    > > >
                    > > > <snip>
                    > > > >> A very pure and tasteless spirit may be obtained by
                    > > > > > mixing with the spirit, after rectification, one-fourth of
                    > its
                    > > > > > weight of pure dry salt of wormwood or tartar. Let it stand a
                    >
                    > > > little
                    > > > > > time in a gentle heat, and distil in the bain-marie. A small
                    > > > portion
                    > > > > > of alum being added
                    > > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    Cheers,
                    Rob.

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                  • miciofelice2003
                    Yes Rob, you are right. Sometimes, like my previous post, I forget that we are in a world Forum, where a lot of people distil a lot of different things getting
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 16, 2005
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                      Yes Rob, you are right.

                      Sometimes, like my previous post, I forget that we are in a world
                      Forum, where a lot of people distil a lot of different things getting
                      a lot of different distillates.

                      So, what is right for grappa isn't right (or not completely right)
                      for gin, or vodka, or something else.

                      Sorry for my post, but take the positive thing from it: use only good
                      quality stuff.
                      After all, you are doing it for yourself.

                      Merry Christmas one more time
                      from

                      micio felice





                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      > I'm typing here for two reasons:
                      > 1. to Micio, there are lots of ways of chemically removing
                      everything
                      > except alcohol, if that is what is wanted. Obviously, if your grappa
                      > came out tasting (?) like neutral alcohol, you would be unhappy.
                      But if
                      > you are going to flavour after, then maybe it is a way to go (let's
                      say
                      > for gin). I think, however, that you are right. It really isn't
                      > difficult to get a clean fermentation. After that it is down to
                      still
                      > design and experience. I would much rather invest in getting the
                      still
                      > perfect than invest in chemicals that need to be bought every time.
                      > 2. the second reason is that I want to time the arrival of this
                      post!
                      > People must think I just answer messages after everyone else has
                      said
                      > what I do. not true, I seem to have a very slow line somewhere!
                      > time is now 13:37 GMT.
                      > Cheers,
                      > Rob.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Hi to everybody.
                      > >
                      > > Sorry to be so polemical, but I'm wondering if it's so difficult
                      to
                      > > distil only good stuff.
                      > >
                      > > I learned "on my skin" that if you distil not good stuff you'll
                      get
                      > > only ... bad stuff: rubbish in, rubbish out.
                      > >
                      > > So, please, learn by other's people mistakes (including me): use
                      only
                      > >
                      > > good, fresh stuff and add nothing else than your experience,
                      passion,
                      > >
                      > > and love for what you are doing.
                      > >
                      > > ciao to everybody and... Merry Christmas by
                      > >
                      > > micio felice
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Russian sites recommend 8-10 frams of sodium or potassium
                      > > > chloride/litre. Stir and allow to stand for 30 minutes. Then
                      add 2
                      > > > grams potassium permanganate/litre and allow to stand for 12
                      hours.
                      > > > Decant and redistill. Before a triple distillation add 200 ml
                      of
                      > > > fresh (skim?) milk/litre. Allow to stand for 30 minutes, add
                      water
                      > > and
                      > > > redistill.
                      > > > Alum? This is the first time I have seen it used. The
                      literature
                      > > says
                      > > > it is used to clear turbid liquids.
                      > > > wal
                      > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                      > > > <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I'm currently trying this method and doing the 2nd
                      distillation
                      > > with
                      > > > > the addition of some Potassium Carbonate & Alum to clean the
                      > > spirit.
                      > > > > THE RESULT: The heads smells like household ammonia! The
                      middle
                      > > of
                      > > > > the run now running at 78.2C has less of an ammonia smell,
                      but it
                      > >
                      > > is
                      > > > > very pungent. It's definitely not drinkable.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I'm hoping the final, 3rd distillation results in the
                      odorless
                      > > pure
                      > > > > spirit promised. I'd hate to have to delegate these 4 gallons
                      of
                      > > > > spirit to cleaning the barbeque.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Some numbers: The amount of Potassium Carbonate suggested
                      > > calculates
                      > > > > out to be 225 grams/liter using 50% abv spirit. In practice
                      this
                      > > > > comes to about 2-1/2 cups of K2CO3 per gallon of the spirit.
                      To
                      > > be
                      > > > > conservative, I cut the K2CO3 to 1 cup/gallon for this test.
                      I
                      > > added
                      > > > > about 1 tsp of the Alum (potassium aluminum sulphate) per
                      gallon
                      > > of
                      > > > > 50% abv spirit. I'm using sugar mash/turbo yeast and a reflux
                      > > column.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Cin Cin!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Bob
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >The section on SPIRITS FOR LIQUEURS suggests a triple
                      > > distillation,
                      > > > > >with the addition of 'salt of wormwood' prior to the final
                      > > > > >distillation to which 'alum' is also added.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >'Salt of wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash')
                      is
                      > > > > >potassium carbonate K2CO3.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >'Alum' is either Potassium aluminium sulphate or aluminium
                      > > sulphate.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >wal
                      > > > > >>--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > > >>
                      > > > > >>
                      > > > > >> The article uses the term "pure proof spirit". I assume
                      this
                      > > means
                      > > > > >> 50%abv (US system)?
                      > > > > >> wal
                      > > > > >> Useful concise compilation of 19th century recipes.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > <snip>
                      > > > > >> A very pure and tasteless spirit may be obtained by
                      > > > > > > mixing with the spirit, after rectification, one-fourth
                      of
                      > > its
                      > > > > > > weight of pure dry salt of wormwood or tartar. Let it
                      stand a
                      > >
                      > > > > little
                      > > > > > > time in a gentle heat, and distil in the bain-marie. A
                      small
                      > > > > portion
                      > > > > > > of alum being added
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Rob.
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                      >
                    • italiandistiller
                      I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the second distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol ever-- hydrometer sails up
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 16, 2005
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                        I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the second
                        distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol ever--
                        hydrometer sails up there at 195! This will be ideal to make excellent
                        infusions of botanicals for gin.

                        Note: I do have very controlled clean fermentations and obtain very
                        good alcohol on the second distillation without the chem additives, but
                        this procedure does really kick it up several notches! Thanks to
                        Moderator & the Good Distillers here for sharing the lore.

                        Bam!

                        Bob
                      • Harry
                        ... second ... excellent ... very ... additives, but ... Thank you for the experimentation,commentary and updates, Bob. It s good to see you proved the old
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 16, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                          <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the
                          second
                          > distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol ever--
                          > hydrometer sails up there at 195! This will be ideal to make
                          excellent
                          > infusions of botanicals for gin.
                          >
                          > Note: I do have very controlled clean fermentations and obtain
                          very
                          > good alcohol on the second distillation without the chem
                          additives, but
                          > this procedure does really kick it up several notches! Thanks to
                          > Moderator & the Good Distillers here for sharing the lore.
                          >
                          > Bam!
                          >
                          > Bob
                          >


                          Thank you for the experimentation,commentary and updates, Bob. It's
                          good to see you proved the old fellas knew what they were on about.
                          It never ceases to amaze me how they arrived at all these results
                          without benefit of gas chromatographs, modern chemistry or even a
                          thorough knowledge of how fermentation works! It just goes to show,
                          we could do worse than follow the traditional methods, albeit with
                          help from our knowledge of modern techniques thrown in.


                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
                        • waljaco
                          The alkali potassium carbonate reacts with fusels. But what does potash alum do? wal
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 17, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            The alkali potassium carbonate reacts with fusels. But what does
                            potash alum do?
                            wal
                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                            <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the second
                            > distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol ever--
                            > hydrometer sails up there at 195! This will be ideal to make excellent
                            > infusions of botanicals for gin.
                            >
                            > Note: I do have very controlled clean fermentations and obtain very
                            > good alcohol on the second distillation without the chem additives, but
                            > this procedure does really kick it up several notches! Thanks to
                            > Moderator & the Good Distillers here for sharing the lore.
                            >
                            > Bam!
                            >
                            > Bob
                            >
                          • Robert Thomas
                            Could it be that the alum is acting as a mordant, essentially making the acids and higher alcohols nonvolatile? It is certainly used in dying as a mordant, and
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 17, 2005
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                              Could it be that the alum is acting as a mordant, essentially making
                              the acids and higher alcohols nonvolatile? It is certainly used in
                              dying as a mordant, and in paper making as size (I think).
                              Cheers,
                              Rob.


                              --- waljaco <waljaco@...> wrote:

                              > The alkali potassium carbonate reacts with fusels. But what does
                              > potash alum do?
                              > wal
                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                              > <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the second
                              >
                              > > distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol ever--
                              > > hydrometer sails up there at 195! This will be ideal to make
                              > excellent
                              > > infusions of botanicals for gin.
                              > >
                              > > Note: I do have very controlled clean fermentations and obtain very
                              >
                              > > good alcohol on the second distillation without the chem additives,
                              > but
                              > > this procedure does really kick it up several notches! Thanks to
                              > > Moderator & the Good Distillers here for sharing the lore.
                              > >
                              > > Bam!
                              > >
                              > > Bob
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              Cheers,
                              Rob.

                              __________________________________________________
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                            • italiandistiller
                              The article states the alum s purpose: A small portion of alum being added prevents any of the salt being brought over with the spirit. The result is pure
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 17, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The article states the alum's purpose: "A small portion
                                of alum being added prevents any of the salt being brought over with
                                the spirit. The result is pure alcohol. It may be reduced to proof
                                spirit by mixing twenty ounces of alcohol with seventeen of water, by
                                weight."

                                Of course salt here refers to the Potassium Carbonate: "Salt of
                                wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash') is potassium
                                carbonate K2CO3."

                                Bob

                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Could it be that the alum is acting as a mordant, essentially making
                                > the acids and higher alcohols nonvolatile? It is certainly used in
                                > dying as a mordant, and in paper making as size (I think).
                                > Cheers,
                                > Rob.
                                >
                                >
                                > --- waljaco <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > The alkali potassium carbonate reacts with fusels. But what does
                                > > potash alum do?
                                > > wal
                                > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                                > > <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the
                                second
                                > >
                                > > > distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol
                                ever--
                                > > > hydrometer sails up there at 195! This will be ideal to make
                                > > excellent
                                > > > infusions of botanicals for gin.
                                > > >
                                > > > Note: I do have very controlled clean fermentations and obtain
                                very
                                > >
                                > > > good alcohol on the second distillation without the chem
                                additives,
                                > > but
                                > > > this procedure does really kick it up several notches! Thanks
                                to
                                > > > Moderator & the Good Distillers here for sharing the lore.
                                > > >
                                > > > Bam!
                                > > >
                                > > > Bob
                              • waljaco
                                A mordant is either inherently colloidal or produces colloids. Alum in this case is then used to trap the soaps produced from the pearl ash acting on the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 17, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  A mordant is either inherently colloidal or produces colloids. Alum in
                                  this case is then used to trap the 'soaps' produced from the pearl ash
                                  acting on the fusel oils (higher alcohols). The milk proteins in the
                                  Russian usage act in a similar way. The amount of milk used is 1
                                  tbsp/litre for clarification purposes.
                                  wal
                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                                  <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The article states the alum's purpose: "A small portion
                                  > of alum being added prevents any of the salt being brought over with
                                  > the spirit. The result is pure alcohol. It may be reduced to proof
                                  > spirit by mixing twenty ounces of alcohol with seventeen of water, by
                                  > weight."
                                  >
                                  > Of course salt here refers to the Potassium Carbonate: "Salt of
                                  > wormwood' (a.k.a. 'Salt of tartar' or 'pearl ash') is potassium
                                  > carbonate K2CO3."
                                  >
                                  > Bob
                                  >
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Could it be that the alum is acting as a mordant, essentially making
                                  > > the acids and higher alcohols nonvolatile? It is certainly used in
                                  > > dying as a mordant, and in paper making as size (I think).
                                  > > Cheers,
                                  > > Rob.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- waljaco <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > The alkali potassium carbonate reacts with fusels. But what does
                                  > > > potash alum do?
                                  > > > wal
                                  > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                                  > > > <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the
                                  > second
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol
                                  > ever--
                                  > > > > hydrometer sails up there at 195! This will be ideal to make
                                  > > > excellent
                                  > > > > infusions of botanicals for gin.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Note: I do have very controlled clean fermentations and obtain
                                  > very
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > good alcohol on the second distillation without the chem
                                  > additives,
                                  > > > but
                                  > > > > this procedure does really kick it up several notches! Thanks
                                  > to
                                  > > > > Moderator & the Good Distillers here for sharing the lore.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Bam!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Bob
                                  >
                                • waljaco
                                  Chemists were quite active in the 19th century as attested by the number of publications. The amount of potassium carbonate suggested in the article (1/4 of
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 17, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Chemists were quite active in the 19th century as attested by the
                                    number of publications.
                                    The amount of potassium carbonate suggested in the article (1/4 of the
                                    weight of the distillate or 225g/l) seems excessive when compared to
                                    the results of current Distillers using potassium bicarbonate - about
                                    5-10g/litre.

                                    wal
                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                                    > <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the
                                    > second
                                    > > distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol ever--
                                    > > hydrometer sails up there at 195! This will be ideal to make
                                    > excellent
                                    > > infusions of botanicals for gin.
                                    > >
                                    > > Note: I do have very controlled clean fermentations and obtain
                                    > very
                                    > > good alcohol on the second distillation without the chem
                                    > additives, but
                                    > > this procedure does really kick it up several notches! Thanks to
                                    > > Moderator & the Good Distillers here for sharing the lore.
                                    > >
                                    > > Bam!
                                    > >
                                    > > Bob
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for the experimentation,commentary and updates, Bob. It's
                                    > good to see you proved the old fellas knew what they were on about.
                                    > It never ceases to amaze me how they arrived at all these results
                                    > without benefit of gas chromatographs, modern chemistry or even a
                                    > thorough knowledge of how fermentation works! It just goes to show,
                                    > we could do worse than follow the traditional methods, albeit with
                                    > help from our knowledge of modern techniques thrown in.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Slainte!
                                    > regards Harry
                                    >
                                  • italiandistiller
                                    I agree. For my tests I cut the suggested amount by 0.5 using 112.5 gr/liter and that seemed excessive. I used 1 teaspoon of the alum per gallon of 50% abv and
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 17, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I agree. For my tests I cut the suggested amount by 0.5 using 112.5
                                      gr/liter and that seemed excessive. I used 1 teaspoon of the alum per
                                      gallon of 50% abv and that was probably overboard as formulary
                                      indicates "a pinch" to generally be less than 1/8 teaspoon. Potassium
                                      Carbonate in bulk is not a great expense and the results were
                                      excellent, but the Potassium Bicarbonate, if it produces a similar
                                      result would be the way to go. Can you suggest a good method of using
                                      Potassium bicarbonate?

                                      Bob

                                      >
                                      > Chemists were quite active in the 19th century as attested by the
                                      > number of publications.
                                      > The amount of potassium carbonate suggested in the article (1/4 of
                                      the
                                      > weight of the distillate or 225g/l) seems excessive when compared to
                                      > the results of current Distillers using potassium bicarbonate -
                                      about
                                      > 5-10g/litre.
                                      >
                                      > wal
                                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                                      > > <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the
                                      > > second
                                      > > > distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol
                                      ever--
                                      > > > hydrometer sails up there at 195! This will be ideal to make
                                      > > excellent
                                      > > > infusions of botanicals for gin.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Note: I do have very controlled clean fermentations and obtain
                                      > > very
                                      > > > good alcohol on the second distillation without the chem
                                      > > additives, but
                                      > > > this procedure does really kick it up several notches! Thanks to
                                      > > > Moderator & the Good Distillers here for sharing the lore.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Bam!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Bob
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you for the experimentation,commentary and updates, Bob.
                                      It's
                                      > > good to see you proved the old fellas knew what they were on
                                      about.
                                      > > It never ceases to amaze me how they arrived at all these results
                                      > > without benefit of gas chromatographs, modern chemistry or even a
                                      > > thorough knowledge of how fermentation works! It just goes to
                                      show,
                                      > > we could do worse than follow the traditional methods, albeit with
                                      > > help from our knowledge of modern techniques thrown in.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Slainte!
                                      > > regards Harry
                                    • waljaco
                                      Pearl ash used to be made by burning wood - possibly the quantity of 1/4 of the weight of the distillate refers to this source. Some Italian communities used
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 19, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        'Pearl ash' used to be made by burning wood - possibly the quantity of
                                        1/4 of the weight of the distillate refers to this source. Some
                                        Italian communities used to dissolve this ash in water to produce a
                                        washing lye which was also added to fats to make soap.
                                        Harry (see msg 31737) says that sodium bicarbonate reaches saturation
                                        at roughly 100g/litre but most use from 1tsp/l to 1 tbsp/l. Keep in
                                        mind that with proper disilling your product is relatively clean to
                                        begin with.
                                        wal

                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                                        <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I agree. For my tests I cut the suggested amount by 0.5 using 112.5
                                        > gr/liter and that seemed excessive. I used 1 teaspoon of the alum per
                                        > gallon of 50% abv and that was probably overboard as formulary
                                        > indicates "a pinch" to generally be less than 1/8 teaspoon. Potassium
                                        > Carbonate in bulk is not a great expense and the results were
                                        > excellent, but the Potassium Bicarbonate, if it produces a similar
                                        > result would be the way to go. Can you suggest a good method of using
                                        > Potassium bicarbonate?
                                        >
                                        > Bob
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > Chemists were quite active in the 19th century as attested by the
                                        > > number of publications.
                                        > > The amount of potassium carbonate suggested in the article (1/4 of
                                        > the
                                        > > weight of the distillate or 225g/l) seems excessive when compared to
                                        > > the results of current Distillers using potassium bicarbonate -
                                        > about
                                        > > 5-10g/litre.
                                        > >
                                        > > wal
                                        > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "italiandistiller"
                                        > > > <italiandistiller@y...> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I did the 3rd Distillation after using the K2C03/Alum on the
                                        > > > second
                                        > > > > distillation and it has yielded the cleanest purest alcohol
                                        > ever--
                                        > > > > hydrometer sails up there at 195! This will be ideal to make
                                        > > > excellent
                                        > > > > infusions of botanicals for gin.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Note: I do have very controlled clean fermentations and obtain
                                        > > > very
                                        > > > > good alcohol on the second distillation without the chem
                                        > > > additives, but
                                        > > > > this procedure does really kick it up several notches! Thanks to
                                        > > > > Moderator & the Good Distillers here for sharing the lore.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Bam!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Bob
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thank you for the experimentation,commentary and updates, Bob.
                                        > It's
                                        > > > good to see you proved the old fellas knew what they were on
                                        > about.
                                        > > > It never ceases to amaze me how they arrived at all these results
                                        > > > without benefit of gas chromatographs, modern chemistry or even a
                                        > > > thorough knowledge of how fermentation works! It just goes to
                                        > show,
                                        > > > we could do worse than follow the traditional methods, albeit with
                                        > > > help from our knowledge of modern techniques thrown in.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Slainte!
                                        > > > regards Harry
                                        >
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