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Now I still have a problem !!!

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  • miciofelice2003
    Hy to everybody! Now I am a little bit confused: what to do? I realized , at least, a thing: use only fresh pomace and refuse everything isn t so !!! But: do I
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 29, 2005
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      Hy to everybody!

      Now I am a little bit confused: what to do?

      I realized , at least, a thing: use only fresh pomace and refuse
      everything isn't so !!!

      But: do I have to correct the pH or not? I understood this: if you
      don't use immediately correct the pH to 3 for the first run and then
      add sodium bicarbonate to the second run.
      Or, as alternative, add gypsum to the first distilate, stir, filter,
      redistil as second run. Is it O.K.?

      I didn't understand what Harry wrote about the blue colour of
      distillate and the cause: can you explain better?

      Harry, also, said that my alambhyc is a plated pot still and not a
      fractionating column: Harry, you destroyed my convinction about my
      still!!!

      I thought to have a fractionating column and the plates are the tools
      to fraction the vapours, I mean: instead to have Raschig rings or
      steel wool or glass balls inside the column I have some plates.

      What is wrong in this thinking?

      I noticed a difference of temperature between the bottom and the head
      of the column: on the first stages of distillation is about 12 °C, at
      the end (on tails zone or near) of distillation this gap is 4 - 5 °C
      and in hearth zone is about 8 - 10 °C: when on the head of column I
      have 83 °C on the bottom I have about 92 - 93 °C whithout using the
      reflux ( my reflux is working by using the cooling water of the
      condenser to flow into the 10 mm diameter tube that cross the head of
      the column).

      To have a plated pot still or to have a fractionnating still really
      doesn't matter, for me: what is important is to get a tasteful result.
      But I'm a little bit curious so, Harry, please, can you make a little
      bit clearness on what is my column? You can refer to photos of my
      still.

      Just an information: I got a very "dry" grappa, not sweet. But the
      taste I don't dislike, the opposite: my son and me appreciated a lot
      that taste.

      For now is all and so I'm going to bed because in the North of Italy
      we had today a snowfall and tomorrow I'll shovel a lot.

      ciao to everybody

      micio felice
    • Robert Thomas
      Hi Micio, ... If you are getting the pomace ready to distil , in other words, fully fermented, and it smells/tastes OK, then just distil it. If you are
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 30, 2005
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        Hi Micio,


        --- miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:

        > Hy to everybody!
        >
        > Now I am a little bit confused: what to do?
        >
        > I realized , at least, a thing: use only fresh pomace and refuse
        > everything isn't so !!!
        >
        > But: do I have to correct the pH or not? I understood this: if you
        > don't use immediately correct the pH to 3 for the first run and then
        > add sodium bicarbonate to the second run.
        If you are getting the pomace "ready to distil", in other words, fully
        fermented, and it smells/tastes OK, then just distil it.
        If you are getting unfermented pomace (say from white grapes, or you
        are making your own) then adjust the pH before fermentation (ph3).
        If you have pomace that is ready, but you don't have time to distil,
        then adjust the pH to 3 or put it outside if it is good and cold (keep
        covered).

        > Or, as alternative, add gypsum to the first distilate, stir, filter,
        > redistil as second run. Is it O.K.?
        Not gypsum (Magnesium sulphate) this will have little effect.

        >
        > I didn't understand what Harry wrote about the blue colour of
        > distillate and the cause: can you explain better?
        If you make the "wash" (stuff before distilling, containing the grape
        skins etc) alkaline (or even neutral), you will get decomposition of
        the amino acids and proteins giving amines and ammonia. The combine
        with copper in the still to produce copper ammine complexes in the
        product. these are blue (and poisonous).
        Always distil before adding alkalis (like bicarbonate) unless you can
        be really sure you keep the pH below about 6 (isoelectric point of many
        amino acids).

        >
        > Harry, also, said that my alambhyc is a plated pot still and not a
        > fractionating column: Harry, you destroyed my convinction about my
        > still!!!
        Ah, when harsh reality destroys a beautiful hypothesis!

        >
        > I thought to have a fractionating column and the plates are the tools
        >
        > to fraction the vapours, I mean: instead to have Raschig rings or
        > steel wool or glass balls inside the column I have some plates.
        >
        > What is wrong in this thinking?
        Yes, you're wrong, unfortunately. In order to fractionate, there must
        be intimate mixing of the liquid and vapour. This can be done by having
        a very large surface area covered with a thin film of liquid, which the
        vapour passes.
        Or, the vapour can be made to bubble through slightly larger volumes of
        liquid in trays with bubble caps.
        In your case neither of these possibilities is happening. There is just
        too big a vapour path that is not hindered by liquid.

        >
        > I noticed a difference of temperature between the bottom and the head
        >
        > of the column: on the first stages of distillation is about 12 °C, at
        >
        > the end (on tails zone or near) of distillation this gap is 4 - 5 °C
        > and in hearth zone is about 8 - 10 °C: when on the head of column I
        > have 83 °C on the bottom I have about 92 - 93 °C whithout using the
        > reflux ( my reflux is working by using the cooling water of the
        > condenser to flow into the 10 mm diameter tube that cross the head of
        >
        > the column).
        >
        > To have a plated pot still or to have a fractionnating still really
        > doesn't matter, for me: what is important is to get a tasteful
        > result.
        > But I'm a little bit curious so, Harry, please, can you make a little
        >
        > bit clearness on what is my column? You can refer to photos of my
        > still.
        Harry may differ, but I think you have a very very inefficient reflux
        still (it is not fractionating: otherwise you would get clear bands of
        pure product).
        The temperature differences are basically caused by the amount of
        returning ethanol. The more there is, the lower the head temp. As it is
        removed, so the head temp approaches the boiler temp. At the final
        extreme, with just water, the heat temp will be the same as the boiler
        temp (100).

        Cheers,
        Rob.

        >
        > Just an information: I got a very "dry" grappa, not sweet. But the
        > taste I don't dislike, the opposite: my son and me appreciated a lot
        > that taste.
        >
        > For now is all and so I'm going to bed because in the North of Italy
        >
        > we had today a snowfall and tomorrow I'll shovel a lot.
        >
        > ciao to everybody
        >
        > micio felice
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        Cheers,
        Rob.




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      • Harry
        ... tools ... really ... result. ... little ... Hi Micio, I m a bit late with this reply, but no matter. Rob has told you all the right things in his message.
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 30, 2005
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          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
          <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Harry, also, said that my alambhyc is a plated pot still and not a
          > fractionating column: Harry, you destroyed my convinction about my
          > still!!!
          >
          > I thought to have a fractionating column and the plates are the
          tools
          > to fraction the vapours, I mean: instead to have Raschig rings or
          > steel wool or glass balls inside the column I have some plates.
          >
          > What is wrong in this thinking?
          >
          > To have a plated pot still or to have a fractionnating still
          really
          > doesn't matter, for me: what is important is to get a tasteful
          result.
          > But I'm a little bit curious so, Harry, please, can you make a
          little
          > bit clearness on what is my column? You can refer to photos of my
          > still.



          Hi Micio,
          I'm a bit late with this reply, but no matter. Rob has told you all
          the right things in his message.

          Sorry I destroyed your ideas about your still, but you should be
          happy! Your still is the ideal type for your grappa. Your still
          is better for grappa that a potstill, because you can have a little
          bit of control of the reflux. Potstills do not.

          Your still is better for grappa than a fractionating still, because
          that type of still removes much of the flavours. Your still will
          leave them in.

          SO! You have a good still for grappa, and it has enough copper in
          it to fix the sulfides. Just to help you understand the
          differences, here is a drawing for you to look at. I put drawings
          of the two types beside each other. Pictures are worth many words.
          http://www.geocities.com/gnikomson2000/Compare.JPG


          Slainte!
          regards Harry
          Moderator
        • miciofelice2003
          Hi to everybody. Dear Harry and Rob, really I m very impressed of your courtesy and competence. Something of regal, be sure! Now I solved my problem, tomorrow
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 1, 2005
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            Hi to everybody.

            Dear Harry and Rob,
            really I'm very impressed of your courtesy and competence.

            Something of regal, be sure!

            Now I solved my problem, tomorrow I'm going to treat my distillate (
            I cheked the pH of the distillate and is 4).

            If you like I'll report you the results.

            I was told by a friend of me that what happened to me isn't very
            usual: only one time in a distillery of the North of Italy that
            distilled some dregs: they changed the feed in and everything
            finished.

            Harry, thaks a lot for your drawing, is exactly what I have.
            Only a thing: I have (at least, I think to have) also some
            condensing on the lower plates.
            In my opinion I have a temperature gradient along the column: so the
            upper-boiling components that leave the boiler have a condensation
            when they bump on a relatively cold plate. Such in this way I get a
            partial purification of the vapours that climb along the column,
            isn't it?

            Now I'm in doubt if I have to insulate my column or not: when it
            is "naked" the temperature difference between head and bottom column
            is an average of about 9 °C for the 90% of the distillation time.
            When insulated this temperature difference is around 4 - 5 °C.

            What should be better and why?

            I close my post congratulating on the Forum: is really something!!!

            ciao

            micio felice



            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
            > <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Harry, also, said that my alambhyc is a plated pot still and not
            a
            > > fractionating column: Harry, you destroyed my convinction about
            my
            > > still!!!
            > >
            > > I thought to have a fractionating column and the plates are the
            > tools
            > > to fraction the vapours, I mean: instead to have Raschig rings
            or
            > > steel wool or glass balls inside the column I have some plates.
            > >
            > > What is wrong in this thinking?
            > >
            > > To have a plated pot still or to have a fractionnating still
            > really
            > > doesn't matter, for me: what is important is to get a tasteful
            > result.
            > > But I'm a little bit curious so, Harry, please, can you make a
            > little
            > > bit clearness on what is my column? You can refer to photos of my
            > > still.
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Micio,
            > I'm a bit late with this reply, but no matter. Rob has told you
            all
            > the right things in his message.
            >
            > Sorry I destroyed your ideas about your still, but you should be
            > happy! Your still is the ideal type for your grappa. Your still
            > is better for grappa that a potstill, because you can have a little
            > bit of control of the reflux. Potstills do not.
            >
            > Your still is better for grappa than a fractionating still, because
            > that type of still removes much of the flavours. Your still will
            > leave them in.
            >
            > SO! You have a good still for grappa, and it has enough copper in
            > it to fix the sulfides. Just to help you understand the
            > differences, here is a drawing for you to look at. I put drawings
            > of the two types beside each other. Pictures are worth many words.
            > http://www.geocities.com/gnikomson2000/Compare.JPG
            >
            >
            > Slainte!
            > regards Harry
            > Moderator
            >
          • Harry
            ... ( ... .........Yes please. There are many here who would like to make traditional grappa. ... the ... a ... ................You are correct. But the
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 1, 2005
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              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
              <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi to everybody.
              >
              > Dear Harry and Rob,
              > really I'm very impressed of your courtesy and competence.
              >
              > Something of regal, be sure!



              .............Thank you for the kind words, Micio.



              >
              > Now I solved my problem, tomorrow I'm going to treat my distillate
              (
              > I cheked the pH of the distillate and is 4).
              >
              > If you like I'll report you the results.



              .........Yes please. There are many here who would like to make
              traditional grappa.


              >
              > I was told by a friend of me that what happened to me isn't very
              > usual: only one time in a distillery of the North of Italy that
              > distilled some dregs: they changed the feed in and everything
              > finished.
              >
              > Harry, thaks a lot for your drawing, is exactly what I have.


              .........Pictures are better than words, yes? ;-)



              > Only a thing: I have (at least, I think to have) also some
              > condensing on the lower plates.
              > In my opinion I have a temperature gradient along the column: so
              the
              > upper-boiling components that leave the boiler have a condensation
              > when they bump on a relatively cold plate. Such in this way I get
              a
              > partial purification of the vapours that climb along the column,
              > isn't it?



              ................You are correct. But the reason is the surrounding
              air removes some of the heat from the column.


              >
              > Now I'm in doubt if I have to insulate my column or not: when it
              > is "naked" the temperature difference between head and bottom
              column
              > is an average of about 9 °C for the 90% of the distillation time.
              > When insulated this temperature difference is around 4 - 5 °C.
              >
              > What should be better and why?




              ........As I said before, you have a good potstill for grappa. DO
              NOT INSULATE the column, unless you want the grappa to be heavier in
              tails. It is a good balance between heating and air cooling, and it
              allows a little more reflux to make the grappa cleaner. It works
              similar to the old Scotch potstills or the French brandy stills,
              except you have a little more control with the water tube in the top.

              If you insulate the column, the grappa distillate will be heavier
              with impurities and taste much different. Try both ways and you
              will see the difference. If you don't like it, you can always re-
              distill it.



              >
              > I close my post congratulating on the Forum: is really something!!!
              >
              > ciao
              >
              > micio felice


              Slainte!
              regards Harry
              Moderator
            • Robert Thomas
              ... ...... Now, if you could just email us a sample of the grappa!! Cheers, Rob. Cheers, Rob. __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! -
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 2, 2005
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                --- Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                > <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi to everybody.
                > >
                > > Dear Harry and Rob,
                > > really I'm very impressed of your courtesy and competence.
                > >
                > > Something of regal, be sure!
                >
                >
                >
                > .............Thank you for the kind words, Micio.

                ............... ditto!

                >
                > >
                > > If you like I'll report you the results.
                >
                >
                >
                > .........Yes please. There are many here who would like to make
                > traditional grappa.

                ...... Now, if you could just email us a sample of the grappa!!

                Cheers,
                Rob.


                Cheers,
                Rob.



                __________________________________
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              • miciofelice2003
                ... It was already on my mind to do this: so, please, send me your mail address and I ll make a nice pack of my grappa to send to you and Harry. Be sure I ll
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 2, 2005
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                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > ...... Now, if you could just email us a sample of the grappa!!
                  >
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Rob.
                  >
                  > You can count on it, be sure !!! It's the minimum I've to do !!!

                  It was already on my mind to do this: so, please, send me your mail
                  address and I'll make a nice pack of my grappa to send to you and Harry.
                  Be sure I'll want your opinion on it, too !!!

                  ciao

                  micio felice
                  > __________________________________
                  > >
                • Robert Thomas
                  Well, that s very generous Micio, but I was only joking (hence the use of email not mail!!) Cin cin, Rob. ... Cheers, Rob.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 2, 2005
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                    Well, that's very generous Micio, but I was only joking (hence the use
                    of "email" not mail!!)
                    Cin cin,
                    Rob.


                    --- miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:

                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > ...... Now, if you could just email us a sample of the grappa!!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Cheers,
                    > > Rob.
                    > >
                    > > You can count on it, be sure !!! It's the minimum I've to do !!!
                    >
                    > It was already on my mind to do this: so, please, send me your mail
                    > address and I'll make a nice pack of my grappa to send to you and
                    > Harry.
                    > Be sure I'll want your opinion on it, too !!!
                    >
                    > ciao
                    >
                    > micio felice
                    > > __________________________________
                    > > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    Cheers,
                    Rob.



                    __________________________________________
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                  • donald holcombe
                    Dont be SILLY ! Everyone knows you need a FAX machine to do that. miciofelice2003 wrote: --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 4, 2005
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                      Dont be SILLY ! Everyone knows you need a FAX machine to do that.

                      miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote: --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > ...... Now, if you could just email us a sample of the grappa!!
                      >
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Rob.
                      >
                      > You can count on it, be sure !!! It's the minimum I've to do !!!

                      It was already on my mind to do this: so, please, send me your mail
                      address and I'll make a nice pack of my grappa to send to you and Harry.
                      Be sure I'll want your opinion on it, too !!!

                      ciao

                      micio felice
                      > __________________________________
                      > >







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                    • miciofelice2003
                      I m not a silly person. I only wanted to be grateful and polite. And you? ciao micio felice ... Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 4, 2005
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                        I'm not a silly person.

                        I only wanted to be grateful and polite.
                        And you?

                        ciao

                        micio felice


                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, donald holcombe
                        <blackledge_02@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dont be SILLY ! Everyone knows you need a FAX machine to do that.
                        >
                        > miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote: --- In
                        Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > ...... Now, if you could just email us a sample of the grappa!!
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Cheers,
                        > > Rob.
                        > >
                        > > You can count on it, be sure !!! It's the minimum I've to
                        do !!!
                        >
                        > It was already on my mind to do this: so, please, send me your mail
                        > address and I'll make a nice pack of my grappa to send to you and
                        Harry.
                        > Be sure I'll want your opinion on it, too !!!
                        >
                        > ciao
                        >
                        > micio felice
                        > > __________________________________
                        > > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                        > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > SPONSORED LINKS
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                        culture change Business culture of china Corporate culture
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                      • donald holcombe
                        Indeed ! Just kidding . Ive never tasted Grappa. I may have to find or make some. Enjoy DONALD miciofelice2003 wrote: I m not a
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 4, 2005
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                          Indeed ! Just kidding . Ive never tasted Grappa. I may have to find or make some.
                          Enjoy DONALD
                          miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote: I'm not a silly person.

                          I only wanted to be grateful and polite.
                          And you?

                          ciao

                          micio felice


                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, donald holcombe
                          <blackledge_02@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dont be SILLY ! Everyone knows you need a FAX machine to do that.
                          >
                          > miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote: --- In
                          Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > ...... Now, if you could just email us a sample of the grappa!!
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Cheers,
                          > > Rob.
                          > >
                          > > You can count on it, be sure !!! It's the minimum I've to
                          do !!!
                          >
                          > It was already on my mind to do this: so, please, send me your mail
                          > address and I'll make a nice pack of my grappa to send to you and
                          Harry.
                          > Be sure I'll want your opinion on it, too !!!
                          >
                          > ciao
                          >
                          > micio felice
                          > > __________________________________
                          > > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                          > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > SPONSORED LINKS
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                          >
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                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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                        • miciofelice2003
                          I ll be happy in helping you, if necessary. ciao micio felice ... or make some. ... person. ... mail ... culture change Business culture of china
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 4, 2005
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                            I'll be happy in helping you, if necessary.

                            ciao

                            micio felice



                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, donald holcombe
                            <blackledge_02@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Indeed ! Just kidding . Ive never tasted Grappa. I may have to find
                            or make some.
                            > Enjoy DONALD
                            > miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote: I'm not a silly
                            person.
                            >
                            > I only wanted to be grateful and polite.
                            > And you?
                            >
                            > ciao
                            >
                            > micio felice
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, donald holcombe
                            > <blackledge_02@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Dont be SILLY ! Everyone knows you need a FAX machine to do that.
                            > >
                            > > miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote: --- In
                            > Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > ...... Now, if you could just email us a sample of the grappa!!
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Cheers,
                            > > > Rob.
                            > > >
                            > > > You can count on it, be sure !!! It's the minimum I've to
                            > do !!!
                            > >
                            > > It was already on my mind to do this: so, please, send me your
                            mail
                            > > address and I'll make a nice pack of my grappa to send to you and
                            > Harry.
                            > > Be sure I'll want your opinion on it, too !!!
                            > >
                            > > ciao
                            > >
                            > > micio felice
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