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design

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  • glen
    What do people have to say about the shape of the boiler and where the tower might sit. Does it matter if the lid on the boiler is flat say like a 25litre
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 3, 2001
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      What do people have to say about the shape of the boiler and where the tower might sit.   Does it matter if the lid on the boiler is flat say like a 25litre paint tin?(not that i was going to use one) and what about putting the tower say to one side of the lid as opposed to the centre?
    • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
      Glen, ... tower might sit. Does it matter if the lid on the boiler is flat say like a 25litre paint tin?(not that I was going to use one) and what about
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 3, 2001
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        Glen,

        >What do people have to say about the shape of the boiler and where the
        tower might sit. Does it matter if the lid on the boiler is flat say like
        a 25litre paint tin?(not that I was going to use one) and what about putting
        the tower say to one side of the lid as opposed to the centre?

        I reckon the only time it would be important is if you're making a
        traditional pot still, where you're relying on the shape of the lid to
        provide extra surface area for cooling so as to induce a small amount of
        internal reflux, and then want to distribute this internal reflux evenly so
        as to get it working effectively.

        But in a reflux still, where you're generating a far greater amount of
        reflux, and from the top of the column, you're counting on it working its
        magic over the column packing (to do the equivalent of say 8-10
        redistillations), and not via the lid (where you might get less than half an
        effective redistillation if it had heaps of surface area ?)

        In terms of whether or not you're going to affect the vapour flow up the
        column etc, basic hydraulics tells us that the pressure in a container is
        equal in all directions - e.g. a car tire will go flat whether the hole is
        at the top or at the bottom - so in our case, the steam will head out the
        hole in the lid, no matter where we put it.

        Tony
      • distiller@mafudesigns.com
        ... This being the case, what if you are planning to use the boiler for both a reflux still and a pot still? In my situation, I am building a reflux still, but
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 7, 2001
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          --- In Distillers@y..., "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)" <Tony.Ackland@c...>
          wrote:

          > Glen,
          >
          > > What do people have to say about the shape of the boiler
          > > and where the tower might sit. Does it matter if the
          > > lid on the boiler is flat say like a 25litre paint tin?
          > > (not that I was going to use one) and what about putting
          > > the tower say to one side of the lid as opposed to the centre?
          >
          > I reckon the only time it would be important is if you're making a
          > traditional pot still, where you're relying on the shape of the
          > lid to provide extra surface area for cooling so as to induce a
          > small amount of internal reflux, and then want to distribute this
          > internal reflux evenly so as to get it working effectively.
          >
          > But in a reflux still, where you're generating a far greater
          > amount of reflux, and from the top of the column, you're counting
          > on it working its magic over the column packing (to do the
          > equivalent of say 8-10 redistillations), and not via the lid
          > (where you might get less than half an effective redistillation
          > if it had heaps of surface area ?

          This being the case, what if you are planning to use the boiler for
          both a reflux still and a pot still?

          In my situation, I am building a reflux still, but have made the
          column and head removeable. I'm planning on making a very short
          column (maybe angled?) so I can also use it as a pot still.

          With this in mind, I am planning on getting the lid domed. Is this
          neccesary (I think so?) and will it effect the reflux column (I think
          not?).

          Matt
        • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
          Matt, ... The question you d have to ask then is exactly what do you want the product from the pot still to end up like ? Eg to replicate a favorite brand,
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 7, 2001
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            Matt,

            > This being the case, what if you are planning to use the boiler for
            > both a reflux still and a pot still?
            >
            > In my situation, I am building a reflux still, but have made the
            > column and head removeable. I'm planning on making a very short
            > column (maybe angled?) so I can also use it as a pot still.
            >
            > With this in mind, I am planning on getting the lid domed. Is this
            > neccesary (I think so?) and will it effect the reflux column (I think
            > not?).
            >
            > Matt

            The question you'd have to ask then is exactly what do you want the product
            from the pot still to end up like ? Eg to replicate a favorite brand, will
            you be able to get exactly the same amount of internal reflux as they do,
            and provide the same physical room for the various congeners etc to collect
            in the vapour space and maybe come over vs. maybe return to the pot etc ?
            Unless its on a similar scale, probably not. All you can maybe hope for is
            to achieve something similar, but not exactly the same.

            So what you're probably after then is to get somewhere close say to a couple
            of their parameters (e.g. the amount of internal reflux happening (which
            they're doing via lyne arm angle & surface area), and an equivalent HETP (do
            they get say an extra half or full plate performance from the lid surface
            area ?). In the hobby sense, you can probably achieve these by selecting
            how much of the column/offtake you'd insulate (if at all), and its height
            and angle, and get the same result, without having to worry about the head
            shape (e.g. do away with the doming, and just make the offtake a little
            taller ??) Maybe even induce a small amount of reflux cooling via a cold
            collar or coil, just to be able to exactly dial up the amount of internal
            reflux ??

            Has anyone experimented with different lids on an otherwise consistent setup
            ?

            Tony
          • Shane Kirkman
            Having some leftover 50mm stainless after making a stillmaker still, I thought i would make a nixon-stone still after I run a few designs past you guys. see
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 29, 2002
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              Having some leftover 50mm stainless after making a
              stillmaker still, I thought i would make a nixon-stone
              still after I run a few designs past you guys.
              "see attachment jpg".
              Is this a bit basic or would B be a better option
              Could i also have some input on column length and
              condenser length.


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              - It's My Yahoo! Get your own!
            • Tony & Elle Ackland
              ... Nah - looks great as it is. The only reason mine looks like B was because we used a T joint there. But its just dead space doing nothing but holding a
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 29, 2002
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                > Is this a bit basic or would B be a better option
                Nah - looks great as it is. The only reason mine looks like "B" was
                because we used a T joint there. But its just dead space doing nothing but
                holding a cork.

                > Could i also have some input on column length and
                > condenser length.

                Column Length - at least 1m. If you want to be able to run faster at the
                same purity, then going taller will help. 1.2m is nice, 1.5m if you really
                want the guarantee.

                Condensor Length - you want at least 10-12 foot of coiled tube inside
                there. Make the coil first, then just have that outer length to suit.

                Tony
              • mattdistiller
                ... was ... nothing but ... I don t know whether I would agree that it is dead space - I thought the idea of the extra height was so that the base of the
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 29, 2002
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                  > > Is this a bit basic or would B be a better option
                  > Nah - looks great as it is. The only reason mine looks like "B"
                  was
                  > because we used a T joint there. But its just dead space doing
                  nothing but
                  > holding a cork.

                  I don't know whether I would agree that it is dead space - I thought
                  the idea of the extra height was so that the base of the thermometer
                  (or probe) was at the same height as the base of the condenser, so
                  that you were measuring the temperature of the vapour at the same
                  height as the vapour you were condesing. Otherwise, surely you would
                  be measuring the temperature of vapour lower in the column than is
                  actually being condensed/used? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong
                  on this.

                  > Condensor Length - you want at least 10-12 foot of coiled tube
                  inside
                  > there. Make the coil first, then just have that outer length to
                  suit.

                  Yep! I see you are using the photos of my still - I went seriously
                  overkill on the condenser size - I think I could reduce it safely by
                  a third. The reason I initially made it so big is that our cold tap
                  water is 29 degrees C! So I went on the side of caution. However in
                  reality, all that get used is the bottom 12 coils, and the inside
                  bottom 1 coil.

                  Matt
                • Tony & Elle Ackland
                  ... Once the vapour has left the packing, its not going to be doing a lot more purifying. So it wont be changing composition, nor temperature. So hopefully
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 30, 2002
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                    > I don't know whether I would agree that it is dead space - I thought
                    > the idea of the extra height was so that the base of the thermometer
                    > (or probe) was at the same height as the base of the condenser, so
                    > that you were measuring the temperature of the vapour at the same
                    > height as the vapour you were condesing. Otherwise, surely you would
                    > be measuring the temperature of vapour lower in the column than is
                    > actually being condensed/used? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong
                    > on this.

                    Once the vapour has left the packing, its not going to be doing a lot more
                    purifying. So it wont be changing composition, nor temperature. So
                    hopefully (?) all that vapour anywhere in that head is at the same
                    temperature.

                    Tony
                  • Bennett, Mark E [TES]
                    The thing that I would pay close attention to in either of the designs is to how the refluxed liquid is distributed over the packing, the trick is get it as
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 30, 2002
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                      The thing that I would pay close attention to in either of the designs is to
                      how the refluxed liquid is distributed over the packing, the trick is get it
                      as even as possible. If you get this right your purity and flow rates will
                      be very good. If you get it wrong your purity will be poor for even very
                      low flow rates. For the column height the longer the better although you
                      need to keep the whole thing insulated. I personally run a 2m column and
                      have found that my output flow rate quadrupled for the same quality over a 1
                      m column.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: mattdistiller [mailto:distiller@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2002 3:56 PM
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Distillers] Re: design


                      > > Is this a bit basic or would B be a better option
                      > Nah - looks great as it is. The only reason mine looks like "B"
                      was
                      > because we used a T joint there. But its just dead space doing
                      nothing but
                      > holding a cork.

                      I don't know whether I would agree that it is dead space - I thought
                      the idea of the extra height was so that the base of the thermometer
                      (or probe) was at the same height as the base of the condenser, so
                      that you were measuring the temperature of the vapour at the same
                      height as the vapour you were condesing. Otherwise, surely you would
                      be measuring the temperature of vapour lower in the column than is
                      actually being condensed/used? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong
                      on this.

                      > Condensor Length - you want at least 10-12 foot of coiled tube
                      inside
                      > there. Make the coil first, then just have that outer length to
                      suit.

                      Yep! I see you are using the photos of my still - I went seriously
                      overkill on the condenser size - I think I could reduce it safely by
                      a third. The reason I initially made it so big is that our cold tap
                      water is 29 degrees C! So I went on the side of caution. However in
                      reality, all that get used is the bottom 12 coils, and the inside
                      bottom 1 coil.

                      Matt






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                    • klcampbell
                      G day Tony,the temperature will only be at the same temp.if the thermometer is in the moving stream of vapour.I made sure of placing my thermocouple and
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 1, 2002
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                        G'day Tony,the temperature will only be at the same temp.if the thermometer is in the moving stream of vapour.I made sure of placing my thermocouple and thermometer at exactly the same level within the vapour stream to get the right control of the system.(not the first few times I ran) but then I noticed a lag between the thermometer and the PID controller.It was at this time I purchased a digital thermometer which updates its reading every few seconds and now it precedes the controller by about half a degree if there is any change of composition of the vapour.
                        Regards,Ken.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2002 4:34
                        Subject: RE: [Distillers] Re: design


                        > I don't know whether I would agree that it is dead space - I thought
                        > the idea of the extra height was so that the base of the thermometer
                        > (or probe) was at the same height as the base of the condenser, so
                        > that you were measuring the temperature of the vapour at the same
                        > height as the vapour you were condesing.  Otherwise, surely you would
                        > be measuring the temperature of vapour lower in the column than is
                        > actually being condensed/used?  Feel free to correct me if I am wrong
                        > on this.

                        Once the vapour has left the packing, its not going to be doing a lot more
                        purifying.  So it wont be changing composition, nor temperature.  So
                        hopefully (?) all that vapour anywhere in that head is at the same
                        temperature.

                        Tony


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