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Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy

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  • duds2u
    Hi Micio, I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of Italian descent fruit
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 28, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Micio,
      I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in
      Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of
      Italian descent fruit growers and have had the "pleasure" or
      otherwise of trying the home made grappa.

      More importantly I have also had the pleaseure of drinking and still
      have one bottle in my cellar of Brunello Fattoria Dei Barbi which I
      am trying to find the right occasion to open.
      Ciao
      Mal T

      Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003" <miciofelice2003@y...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi Robert.
      >
      > Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different: grappa
      is
      > made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is made
      > by ... I don't know, may be cherries.
      >
      > About the oxide coating may be I wasn't good in explanations: what
      I
      > meant was that you have to clean the internal surfaces by every
      bad
      > stuff, yes: but you have to avoid every acid attack because this
      can
      > destroy the film of oxides.
      > Is better to use a basic attack, like a weak solution in water of
      > caustic soda and then to rinse with a solution of water and
      > bicarbonate of sodium. To clean by "grease", if not very dirty, is
      > enough a hot solution of water and dish-cleaner.
      > I say this because the first time I was wrong: I "brushed" the
      > internal surfaces with steel wool till to get a nice, polished
      > surface.
      >
      > Then the effect was a lot of copper into my spirit due to acid
      attack
      > to "naked" metal by the acetic compounds of the head.
      >
      > I had to flush with steam, then with water, then to heat with
      flame
      > (heat help a lot to create a new film of oxides) then to wait more
      > than a month to let my alambhyc outside to be flushed by natural
      air.
      > Copper oxides are very resistant and so is enough a treatment to
      > clean the impurities.
      > About soldering, is better to avoid the alloy tin-lead: or 100%
      tin,
      > or copper, or silver alloy or castolin must be used.
      > Anyway, oxides film must be in and must stay: is for protection of
      > metal to avoid the metal in solution to the spirit.
      >
      > A trick used by asome people is to put a valve on the head of the
      > column to flush away the not-condensable acid vapours: when the
      head
      > temperature is about 70-75 °C they close the valve.
      >
      > Here you can find some internet places of italian grappa makers
      (in
      > italian are called distillerie) that have the english translation,
      > too: I hope you will give a glance.
      >
      > http://www.brunello.it/it/processi.php (this is good for process)
      >
      > http://www.nardini.it/eng/index.htm (this is the site of the
      oldest
      > grappa distillery in the world)
      >
      > http://www.primeuve.com/pages/english/index.html
      >
      > http://www.bonollo.it/index.asp?action=testo&lingua=2&id=298
      >
      > http://www.daponte.it/
      >
      > http://www.bertagnolli.it/
      >
      > http://www.distillerietrentine.it/eng/azienda.html#
      >
      > http://www.sari.it/pagine_ita/liquoridistillati/grappa.html
      >
      >
      > If those aren't enough you can try on Google
      > about "grappa", "distillazione della grappa", "grappa
      distillerie",
      > and so on.
      >
      > I'm preparing something about grappa, when will be ready I'll put
      on
      > the Forum.
      >
      > Ciao
      >
      > micio felice
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble"
      <zymurgybob@h...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Morgan,
      > >
      > > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
      > inputs.
      > > Thank you epecially , Micio.
      > >
      > > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
      > like
      > > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
      > grappa, the
      > > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
      > >
      > > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we
      learn
      > into a
      > > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe
      and
      > good
      > > grappa "by the book".
      > >
      > > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
      > coating" on
      > > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
      > 2 "steam runs"
      > > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux,
      and
      > > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
      > explored.
      > >
      > > Zymurgy Bob
      > >
      > >
      > > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
      > > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
      > > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
      > > >
      > > >Dear Miciofelice,
      > > >
      > > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my
      heart
      > for
      > > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away
      awhile
      > ago,
      > > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there
      not
      > > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old
      italian
      > > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of
      them
      > > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
      > > >Tip one, Morgan
      > > >
      > > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
      > > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Dear Dan,
      > > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody
      (at
      > > >least
      > > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name
      of
      > the
      > > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
      > > >alcohol
      > > > > in water.
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °
      trl.,
      > and
      > > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
      > > > >
      > > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
      > alambhyc)
      > > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
      > > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
      > > > >
      > > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
      > > > > depending from the point of wiew.
      > > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
      > level of
      > > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became
      not
      > > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
      > > > > collecting in tails zone.
      > > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel
      oils,
      > > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your
      distillate
      > > >that
      > > > > became "opaque".
      > > > >
      > > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
      > > > >
      > > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a
      formula
      > to
      > > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
      > > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste:
      what
      > is
      > > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal
      after
      > > >some
      > > > > months (and viceversa).
      > > > >
      > > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong:
      the
      > > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
      > after
      > > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
      > > > >
      > > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
      > destroy
      > > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
      > > > >
      > > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
      > > > >
      > > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
      > > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the
      normal
      > dish-
      > > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
      > bicarbonate.
      > > > >
      > > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
      > > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam
      flowing
      > out
      > > >the
      > > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat
      the
      > > > > treatment.
      > > > >
      > > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
      > couple
      > > >of
      > > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
      > smell
      > > > > good.
      > > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
      > laboratory to
      > > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the
      italian
      > low
      > > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
      > maximum
      > > >of
      > > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
      > > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
      > > > >
      > > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
      > wine.
      > > > >
      > > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
      > checked by
      > > >a
      > > > > laboratory.
      > > > >
      > > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only
      with
      > > >water
      > > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
      > > > >
      > > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > _________________________________________________________________
      > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
      > it's FREE!
      > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
      > >
      >
    • duds2u
      Hi Micio, I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of Italian descent fruit
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 28, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Micio,
        I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in
        Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of
        Italian descent fruit growers and have had the "pleasure" or
        otherwise of trying the home made grappa.

        More importantly I have also had the pleaseure of drinking and still
        have one bottle in my cellar of Brunello Fattoria Dei Barbi which I
        am trying to find the right occasion to open.
        Ciao
        Mal T

        Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003" <miciofelice2003@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Robert.
        >
        > Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different: grappa
        is
        > made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is made
        > by ... I don't know, may be cherries.
        >
        > About the oxide coating may be I wasn't good in explanations: what
        I
        > meant was that you have to clean the internal surfaces by every
        bad
        > stuff, yes: but you have to avoid every acid attack because this
        can
        > destroy the film of oxides.
        > Is better to use a basic attack, like a weak solution in water of
        > caustic soda and then to rinse with a solution of water and
        > bicarbonate of sodium. To clean by "grease", if not very dirty, is
        > enough a hot solution of water and dish-cleaner.
        > I say this because the first time I was wrong: I "brushed" the
        > internal surfaces with steel wool till to get a nice, polished
        > surface.
        >
        > Then the effect was a lot of copper into my spirit due to acid
        attack
        > to "naked" metal by the acetic compounds of the head.
        >
        > I had to flush with steam, then with water, then to heat with
        flame
        > (heat help a lot to create a new film of oxides) then to wait more
        > than a month to let my alambhyc outside to be flushed by natural
        air.
        > Copper oxides are very resistant and so is enough a treatment to
        > clean the impurities.
        > About soldering, is better to avoid the alloy tin-lead: or 100%
        tin,
        > or copper, or silver alloy or castolin must be used.
        > Anyway, oxides film must be in and must stay: is for protection of
        > metal to avoid the metal in solution to the spirit.
        >
        > A trick used by asome people is to put a valve on the head of the
        > column to flush away the not-condensable acid vapours: when the
        head
        > temperature is about 70-75 °C they close the valve.
        >
        > Here you can find some internet places of italian grappa makers
        (in
        > italian are called distillerie) that have the english translation,
        > too: I hope you will give a glance.
        >
        > http://www.brunello.it/it/processi.php (this is good for process)
        >
        > http://www.nardini.it/eng/index.htm (this is the site of the
        oldest
        > grappa distillery in the world)
        >
        > http://www.primeuve.com/pages/english/index.html
        >
        > http://www.bonollo.it/index.asp?action=testo&lingua=2&id=298
        >
        > http://www.daponte.it/
        >
        > http://www.bertagnolli.it/
        >
        > http://www.distillerietrentine.it/eng/azienda.html#
        >
        > http://www.sari.it/pagine_ita/liquoridistillati/grappa.html
        >
        >
        > If those aren't enough you can try on Google
        > about "grappa", "distillazione della grappa", "grappa
        distillerie",
        > and so on.
        >
        > I'm preparing something about grappa, when will be ready I'll put
        on
        > the Forum.
        >
        > Ciao
        >
        > micio felice
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble"
        <zymurgybob@h...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Morgan,
        > >
        > > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
        > inputs.
        > > Thank you epecially , Micio.
        > >
        > > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
        > like
        > > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
        > grappa, the
        > > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
        > >
        > > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we
        learn
        > into a
        > > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe
        and
        > good
        > > grappa "by the book".
        > >
        > > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
        > coating" on
        > > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
        > 2 "steam runs"
        > > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux,
        and
        > > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
        > explored.
        > >
        > > Zymurgy Bob
        > >
        > >
        > > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
        > > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
        > > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
        > > >
        > > >Dear Miciofelice,
        > > >
        > > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my
        heart
        > for
        > > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away
        awhile
        > ago,
        > > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there
        not
        > > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old
        italian
        > > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of
        them
        > > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
        > > >Tip one, Morgan
        > > >
        > > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
        > > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Dear Dan,
        > > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody
        (at
        > > >least
        > > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
        > > > >
        > > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name
        of
        > the
        > > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
        > > >alcohol
        > > > > in water.
        > > > >
        > > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °
        trl.,
        > and
        > > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
        > > > >
        > > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
        > alambhyc)
        > > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
        > > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
        > > > >
        > > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
        > > > > depending from the point of wiew.
        > > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
        > level of
        > > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became
        not
        > > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
        > > > > collecting in tails zone.
        > > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel
        oils,
        > > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your
        distillate
        > > >that
        > > > > became "opaque".
        > > > >
        > > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
        > > > >
        > > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a
        formula
        > to
        > > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
        > > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste:
        what
        > is
        > > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal
        after
        > > >some
        > > > > months (and viceversa).
        > > > >
        > > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong:
        the
        > > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
        > after
        > > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
        > > > >
        > > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
        > destroy
        > > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
        > > > >
        > > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
        > > > >
        > > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
        > > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the
        normal
        > dish-
        > > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
        > bicarbonate.
        > > > >
        > > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
        > > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam
        flowing
        > out
        > > >the
        > > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat
        the
        > > > > treatment.
        > > > >
        > > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
        > couple
        > > >of
        > > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
        > smell
        > > > > good.
        > > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
        > laboratory to
        > > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the
        italian
        > low
        > > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
        > maximum
        > > >of
        > > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
        > > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
        > > > >
        > > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
        > wine.
        > > > >
        > > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
        > checked by
        > > >a
        > > > > laboratory.
        > > > >
        > > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only
        with
        > > >water
        > > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
        > > > >
        > > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > _________________________________________________________________
        > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
        > it's FREE!
        > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
        > >
        >
      • miciofelice2003
        Hi duds2u. If you mean that the bottle you have is the Brunello di Montalcino be happy !!! Brunello di Montalcino is a great wine: high alcohol content, long
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 29, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi duds2u.

          If you mean that the bottle you have is the "Brunello di Montalcino"
          be happy !!!

          Brunello di Montalcino is a great wine: high alcohol content, long
          lasting a lot of years (more than 15 years), big and full personality.

          In my opinion, with Barolo and Amarone di Recioto that one is the
          third big italian wine.

          So, drink it in a big and good occasion, with the right food like
          game, rosts, stew.

          ciao

          micio felice



          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "duds2u" <taylormc@b...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Micio,
          > I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in
          > Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of
          > Italian descent fruit growers and have had the "pleasure" or
          > otherwise of trying the home made grappa.
          >
          > More importantly I have also had the pleaseure of drinking and
          still
          > have one bottle in my cellar of Brunello Fattoria Dei Barbi which
          I
          > am trying to find the right occasion to open.
          > Ciao
          > Mal T
          >
          > Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
          <miciofelice2003@y...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Robert.
          > >
          > > Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different:
          grappa
          > is
          > > made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is
          made
          > > by ... I don't know, may be cherries.
          > >
          > > About the oxide coating may be I wasn't good in explanations:
          what
          > I
          > > meant was that you have to clean the internal surfaces by every
          > bad
          > > stuff, yes: but you have to avoid every acid attack because this
          > can
          > > destroy the film of oxides.
          > > Is better to use a basic attack, like a weak solution in water of
          > > caustic soda and then to rinse with a solution of water and
          > > bicarbonate of sodium. To clean by "grease", if not very dirty,
          is
          > > enough a hot solution of water and dish-cleaner.
          > > I say this because the first time I was wrong: I "brushed" the
          > > internal surfaces with steel wool till to get a nice, polished
          > > surface.
          > >
          > > Then the effect was a lot of copper into my spirit due to acid
          > attack
          > > to "naked" metal by the acetic compounds of the head.
          > >
          > > I had to flush with steam, then with water, then to heat with
          > flame
          > > (heat help a lot to create a new film of oxides) then to wait
          more
          > > than a month to let my alambhyc outside to be flushed by natural
          > air.
          > > Copper oxides are very resistant and so is enough a treatment to
          > > clean the impurities.
          > > About soldering, is better to avoid the alloy tin-lead: or 100%
          > tin,
          > > or copper, or silver alloy or castolin must be used.
          > > Anyway, oxides film must be in and must stay: is for protection
          of
          > > metal to avoid the metal in solution to the spirit.
          > >
          > > A trick used by asome people is to put a valve on the head of the
          > > column to flush away the not-condensable acid vapours: when the
          > head
          > > temperature is about 70-75 °C they close the valve.
          > >
          > > Here you can find some internet places of italian grappa makers
          > (in
          > > italian are called distillerie) that have the english
          translation,
          > > too: I hope you will give a glance.
          > >
          > > http://www.brunello.it/it/processi.php (this is good for process)
          > >
          > > http://www.nardini.it/eng/index.htm (this is the site of the
          > oldest
          > > grappa distillery in the world)
          > >
          > > http://www.primeuve.com/pages/english/index.html
          > >
          > > http://www.bonollo.it/index.asp?action=testo&lingua=2&id=298
          > >
          > > http://www.daponte.it/
          > >
          > > http://www.bertagnolli.it/
          > >
          > > http://www.distillerietrentine.it/eng/azienda.html#
          > >
          > > http://www.sari.it/pagine_ita/liquoridistillati/grappa.html
          > >
          > >
          > > If those aren't enough you can try on Google
          > > about "grappa", "distillazione della grappa", "grappa
          > distillerie",
          > > and so on.
          > >
          > > I'm preparing something about grappa, when will be ready I'll put
          > on
          > > the Forum.
          > >
          > > Ciao
          > >
          > > micio felice
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble"
          > <zymurgybob@h...>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Morgan,
          > > >
          > > > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
          > > inputs.
          > > > Thank you epecially , Micio.
          > > >
          > > > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk
          brandies",
          > > like
          > > > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
          > > grappa, the
          > > > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
          > > >
          > > > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we
          > learn
          > > into a
          > > > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe
          > and
          > > good
          > > > grappa "by the book".
          > > >
          > > > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
          > > coating" on
          > > > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
          > > 2 "steam runs"
          > > > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux,
          > and
          > > > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
          > > explored.
          > > >
          > > > Zymurgy Bob
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
          > > > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
          > > > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
          > > > >
          > > > >Dear Miciofelice,
          > > > >
          > > > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my
          > heart
          > > for
          > > > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away
          > awhile
          > > ago,
          > > > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there
          > not
          > > > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old
          > italian
          > > > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of
          > them
          > > > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
          > > > >Tip one, Morgan
          > > > >
          > > > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
          > > > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Dear Dan,
          > > > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody
          > (at
          > > > >least
          > > > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name
          > of
          > > the
          > > > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content
          of
          > > > >alcohol
          > > > > > in water.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °
          > trl.,
          > > and
          > > > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
          > > alambhyc)
          > > > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
          > > > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or
          not
          > > > > > depending from the point of wiew.
          > > > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
          > > level of
          > > > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became
          > not
          > > > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was
          wrong
          > > > > > collecting in tails zone.
          > > > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel
          > oils,
          > > > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your
          > distillate
          > > > >that
          > > > > > became "opaque".
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a
          > formula
          > > to
          > > > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
          > > > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste:
          > what
          > > is
          > > > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal
          > after
          > > > >some
          > > > > > months (and viceversa).
          > > > > >
          > > > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was
          wrong:
          > the
          > > > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
          > > after
          > > > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
          > > > > >
          > > > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
          > > destroy
          > > > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
          > > > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the
          > normal
          > > dish-
          > > > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
          > > bicarbonate.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
          > > > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam
          > flowing
          > > out
          > > > >the
          > > > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat
          > the
          > > > > > treatment.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
          > > couple
          > > > >of
          > > > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even
          if
          > > smell
          > > > > > good.
          > > > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
          > > laboratory to
          > > > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the
          > italian
          > > low
          > > > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
          > > maximum
          > > > >of
          > > > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
          > > > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
          > > wine.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
          > > checked by
          > > > >a
          > > > > > laboratory.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only
          > with
          > > > >water
          > > > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          _________________________________________________________________
          > > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
          > > it's FREE!
          > > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Robert Hubble
          Micio, I understand the recipe difference between grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser; the similarity I referred to is their social and economic aspect. They
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 29, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Micio,

            I understand the recipe difference between grappa, slivovitz, and
            kirschwasser; the similarity I referred to is their social and economic
            aspect.

            They all have their origins in the peasant classes, made from inexpensive
            and readily-available materials, all are consumed "in the white", unaged,
            and produced on primitive hardware. All are usually consumed at higher
            proofs than "more sophisticated" liquors. Out American equivalent is "white
            lightening", or illegal mountain whisky.

            I have made slivovitz and kirschwasser, but my versions lask the character
            of the originals; even at proofs from 110 to 120, mine lack the
            clutch-your-throat harshness of these country eau-de-vies. I have to assume
            my still removes harshness by design. Normally I'm happy about that, but
            I'd still like to produce the "rough folk brandies".

            Could anyone on the list address the apparent opposites of exposed copper to
            reduce sulfides in the distillate, and Micio's carefully developed oxde film
            to reduce copper compounds in the distillate?

            Thnaks to all,

            Zymurgy Bob


            >From: "miciofelice2003" <miciofelice2003@...>
            >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
            >Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:41:13 -0000
            >
            >Hi Robert.
            >
            >Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different: grappa is
            >made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is made
            >by ... I don't know, may be cherries.
            >
            >About the oxide coating may be I wasn't good in explanations: what I
            >meant was that you have to clean the internal surfaces by every bad
            >stuff, yes: but you have to avoid every acid attack because this can
            >destroy the film of oxides.
            >Is better to use a basic attack, like a weak solution in water of
            >caustic soda and then to rinse with a solution of water and
            >bicarbonate of sodium. To clean by "grease", if not very dirty, is
            >enough a hot solution of water and dish-cleaner.
            >I say this because the first time I was wrong: I "brushed" the
            >internal surfaces with steel wool till to get a nice, polished
            >surface.
            >
            >Then the effect was a lot of copper into my spirit due to acid attack
            >to "naked" metal by the acetic compounds of the head.
            >
            >I had to flush with steam, then with water, then to heat with flame
            >(heat help a lot to create a new film of oxides) then to wait more
            >than a month to let my alambhyc outside to be flushed by natural air.
            >Copper oxides are very resistant and so is enough a treatment to
            >clean the impurities.
            >About soldering, is better to avoid the alloy tin-lead: or 100% tin,
            >or copper, or silver alloy or castolin must be used.
            >Anyway, oxides film must be in and must stay: is for protection of
            >metal to avoid the metal in solution to the spirit.
            >
            >A trick used by asome people is to put a valve on the head of the
            >column to flush away the not-condensable acid vapours: when the head
            >temperature is about 70-75 �C they close the valve.
            >
            >Here you can find some internet places of italian grappa makers (in
            >italian are called distillerie) that have the english translation,
            >too: I hope you will give a glance.
            >
            >http://www.brunello.it/it/processi.php (this is good for process)
            >
            >http://www.nardini.it/eng/index.htm (this is the site of the oldest
            >grappa distillery in the world)
            >
            >http://www.primeuve.com/pages/english/index.html
            >
            >http://www.bonollo.it/index.asp?action=testo&lingua=2&id=298
            >
            >http://www.daponte.it/
            >
            >http://www.bertagnolli.it/
            >
            >http://www.distillerietrentine.it/eng/azienda.html#
            >
            >http://www.sari.it/pagine_ita/liquoridistillati/grappa.html
            >
            >
            >If those aren't enough you can try on Google
            >about "grappa", "distillazione della grappa", "grappa distillerie",
            >and so on.
            >
            >I'm preparing something about grappa, when will be ready I'll put on
            >the Forum.
            >
            >Ciao
            >
            >micio felice
            >
            >
            >
            >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@h...>
            >wrote:
            > >
            > > Morgan,
            > >
            > > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
            >inputs.
            > > Thank you epecially , Micio.
            > >
            > > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
            >like
            > > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
            >grappa, the
            > > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
            > >
            > > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we learn
            >into a
            > > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe and
            >good
            > > grappa "by the book".
            > >
            > > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
            >coating" on
            > > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
            >2 "steam runs"
            > > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux, and
            > > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
            >explored.
            > >
            > > Zymurgy Bob
            > >
            > >
            > > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
            > > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
            > > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
            > > >
            > > >Dear Miciofelice,
            > > >
            > > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart
            >for
            > > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile
            >ago,
            > > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
            > > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
            > > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
            > > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
            > > >Tip one, Morgan
            > > >
            > > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
            > > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Dear Dan,
            > > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
            > > >least
            > > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
            > > > >
            > > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of
            >the
            > > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
            > > >alcohol
            > > > > in water.
            > > > >
            > > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 �trl.,
            >and
            > > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
            > > > >
            > > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
            >alambhyc)
            > > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
            > > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
            > > > >
            > > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
            > > > > depending from the point of wiew.
            > > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
            >level of
            > > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
            > > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
            > > > > collecting in tails zone.
            > > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
            > > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
            > > >that
            > > > > became "opaque".
            > > > >
            > > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
            > > > >
            > > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula
            >to
            > > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
            > > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what
            >is
            > > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
            > > >some
            > > > > months (and viceversa).
            > > > >
            > > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
            > > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
            >after
            > > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
            > > > >
            > > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
            >destroy
            > > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
            > > > >
            > > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
            > > > >
            > > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
            > > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal
            >dish-
            > > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
            >bicarbonate.
            > > > >
            > > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
            > > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing
            >out
            > > >the
            > > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
            > > > > treatment.
            > > > >
            > > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
            >couple
            > > >of
            > > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
            >smell
            > > > > good.
            > > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
            >laboratory to
            > > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian
            >low
            > > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
            >maximum
            > > >of
            > > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
            > > > > (normally 40 - 42 �trl).
            > > > >
            > > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
            >wine.
            > > > >
            > > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
            >checked by
            > > >a
            > > > > laboratory.
            > > > >
            > > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
            > > >water
            > > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
            > > > >
            > > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
            >it's FREE!
            > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
            Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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          • polenta222
            Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his advice not to use any acidic
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 30, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and
              brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his advice
              not to use any acidic (even vinegar) to season and/or clean a copper
              still. Surprised because I have been building a scrap book of
              distilling advice from this site and others over the past year---and
              the section on CLEANING AND SANITIZING is loaded with tips from
              longtime distillers advising just the opposite of what Micio advises,
              including distilling batches of raw vinegar to clean the inside of
              the work and couplings. Would someone else like to weigh in on this?
              My new 30-liter still from Italy is solid copper and I am thankful
              that I haven't used it yet. I'm going to wait until I hear from you
              regulars out there. (Thanks again, Micio, gratzie mille). Dan


              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@h...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Morgan,
              >
              > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
              inputs.
              > Thank you epecially , Micio.
              >
              > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
              like
              > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
              grappa, the
              > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
              >
              > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we learn
              into a
              > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe and
              good
              > grappa "by the book".
              >
              > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
              coating" on
              > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
              2 "steam runs"
              > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux, and
              > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
              explored.
              >
              > Zymurgy Bob
              >
              >
              > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
              > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
              > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
              > >
              > >Dear Miciofelice,
              > >
              > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart
              for
              > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile
              ago,
              > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
              > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
              > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
              > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
              > >Tip one, Morgan
              > >
              > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
              > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Dear Dan,
              > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
              > >least
              > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
              > > >
              > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of
              the
              > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
              > >alcohol
              > > > in water.
              > > >
              > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °trl.,
              and
              > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
              > > >
              > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
              alambhyc)
              > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
              > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
              > > >
              > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
              > > > depending from the point of wiew.
              > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
              level of
              > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
              > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
              > > > collecting in tails zone.
              > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
              > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
              > >that
              > > > became "opaque".
              > > >
              > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
              > > >
              > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula
              to
              > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
              > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what
              is
              > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
              > >some
              > > > months (and viceversa).
              > > >
              > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
              > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
              after
              > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
              > > >
              > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
              destroy
              > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
              > > >
              > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
              > > >
              > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
              > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal
              dish-
              > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
              bicarbonate.
              > > >
              > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
              > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing
              out
              > >the
              > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
              > > > treatment.
              > > >
              > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
              couple
              > >of
              > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
              smell
              > > > good.
              > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
              laboratory to
              > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian
              low
              > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
              maximum
              > >of
              > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
              > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
              > > >
              > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
              wine.
              > > >
              > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
              checked by
              > >a
              > > > laboratory.
              > > >
              > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
              > >water
              > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
              > > >
              > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
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            • polenta222
              Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his advice not to use any acidic
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 30, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and
                brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his advice
                not to use any acidic (even vinegar) to season and/or clean a copper
                still. Surprised because I have been building a scrap book of
                distilling advice from this site and others over the past year---and
                the section on CLEANING AND SANITIZING is loaded with tips from
                longtime distillers advising just the opposite of what Micio advises,
                including distilling batches of raw vinegar to clean the inside of
                the work and couplings. Would someone else like to weigh in on this?
                My new 30-liter still from Italy is solid copper and I am thankful
                that I haven't used it yet. I'm going to wait until I hear from you
                regulars out there. (Thanks again, Micio, gratzie mille). Dan


                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@h...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Morgan,
                >
                > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                inputs.
                > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                >
                > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
                like
                > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
                grappa, the
                > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
                >
                > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we learn
                into a
                > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe and
                good
                > grappa "by the book".
                >
                > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
                coating" on
                > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
                2 "steam runs"
                > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux, and
                > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
                explored.
                >
                > Zymurgy Bob
                >
                >
                > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
                > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
                > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
                > >
                > >Dear Miciofelice,
                > >
                > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart
                for
                > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile
                ago,
                > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
                > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
                > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
                > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
                > >Tip one, Morgan
                > >
                > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Dear Dan,
                > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
                > >least
                > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
                > > >
                > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of
                the
                > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
                > >alcohol
                > > > in water.
                > > >
                > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °trl.,
                and
                > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
                > > >
                > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
                alambhyc)
                > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
                > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
                > > >
                > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
                > > > depending from the point of wiew.
                > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
                level of
                > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
                > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
                > > > collecting in tails zone.
                > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
                > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
                > >that
                > > > became "opaque".
                > > >
                > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
                > > >
                > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula
                to
                > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
                > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what
                is
                > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
                > >some
                > > > months (and viceversa).
                > > >
                > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
                > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
                after
                > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
                > > >
                > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
                destroy
                > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
                > > >
                > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
                > > >
                > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
                > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal
                dish-
                > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
                bicarbonate.
                > > >
                > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
                > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing
                out
                > >the
                > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
                > > > treatment.
                > > >
                > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
                couple
                > >of
                > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
                smell
                > > > good.
                > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
                laboratory to
                > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian
                low
                > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
                maximum
                > >of
                > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
                > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
                > > >
                > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
                wine.
                > > >
                > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
                checked by
                > >a
                > > > laboratory.
                > > >
                > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
                > >water
                > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
                > > >
                > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
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              • miciofelice2003
                Hi Dan. Why are you surprised? To clean copper doesn t mean to polish to the metallic surface your still. Is enough to have it cleaned from grease and other
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 30, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Dan.

                  Why are you surprised? To clean copper doesn't mean to polish to the
                  metallic surface your still. Is enough to have it "cleaned" from
                  grease and other stuff.
                  The oxides film is very resistant, strongly attached to the copper
                  surface, not dangerous for human health, protective for the metal,....

                  I was told by a chemist, about this. And that one isn't the only
                  person that say that. I?m not a chemist, I'm an engineer, that got
                  the master in Milan many years ago.

                  Anyway, it's possible to check by yourself: I'm going to put on the
                  section database the address of all the institutes of copper in the
                  world: they are full of informations.

                  So, everybody can give a look.

                  Ciao

                  micio felice

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "polenta222" <polenta222@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and
                  > brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his
                  advice
                  > not to use any acidic (even vinegar) to season and/or clean a
                  copper
                  > still. Surprised because I have been building a scrap book of
                  > distilling advice from this site and others over the past year---
                  and
                  > the section on CLEANING AND SANITIZING is loaded with tips from
                  > longtime distillers advising just the opposite of what Micio
                  advises,
                  > including distilling batches of raw vinegar to clean the inside of
                  > the work and couplings. Would someone else like to weigh in on
                  this?
                  > My new 30-liter still from Italy is solid copper and I am thankful
                  > that I haven't used it yet. I'm going to wait until I hear from
                  you
                  > regulars out there. (Thanks again, Micio, gratzie mille). Dan
                  >
                  >
                • morganfield1
                  ... batch ... Hi Henry, I should give you the mash bill first, not very complicated, 10 lbs. white, seedless grapes, 10 lbs. white sugar, and enough water to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 30, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Henry Stamp <henrystamp@g...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > interesting post. how much product will you get from this 10 lbs.
                    batch
                    > and how does it taste?
                    >
                    > -h
                    >
                    Hi Henry,
                    I should give you the mash bill first, not very complicated, 10 lbs.
                    white, seedless grapes, 10 lbs. white sugar, and enough water to
                    bring liquid up to the 6 gal. mark on the fermenter. That gave me an
                    O.G. of 1.07. Final was 1.000. I use Red Star Champaigne yeast for
                    all my stuff (will try bakers yeast on my next rum!) because of low
                    off flavor production (and I can pick it up just down the road!).
                    Having said that, I distill twice (packed column pot still), first
                    take is from 75% to 40%, second take is from 80% to 65%.
                    Now, I dilute mine to 50% then bottle. Before diluting, I get about
                    2.4 ltrs. Most grappa is not diluted when bottled, but I perfer to
                    serve mine without the complimentary pitcher of ice water.
                    As for how it tastes, that's a matter of opinion. Tastes like grappa
                    to me, but alittle smoother, and without that wet cardboard smell,
                    but wait, without that harsh edge, it's not grappa!!! To each his
                    own. What do ya want, have your cake and eat it, too!! (I've always
                    wondered what good cake is if you can't eat it?)
                    Tip one to the mysteries of life,
                    Morgan
                    >
                  • king pin
                    I m pleased to see Dan getting some help from the forum and that there are others interested in grappa. I, myself, made the still for this purpose alone and
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 31, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I'm pleased to see Dan getting some help from the forum and that there are others interested in grappa. I, myself, made the still for this purpose alone and was pleased to learn other recepies and try dif things. Some very interesting info from Micio. I myself don't use a seperator from the pot and the pomace, I find with a lower heat, there is no burning of the pomace and the boiler. I do remove as many stems as possible though. I find the comments about cutting the final product interesting also. I'll be having to cut soon, just one more batch of pomace left to do. I may have left too much in regard to tails so I'm a bit concerned about clouding and what to use. In the old days, from what I've learned, they used the tails and late tails to cut the final product. I'm looking forward to hearing of Dans run and final taste test. Its nice to keep tradition. Now......when I have time and a good source for prunes....it'll be time to try my hand at prugna :))

                      morganfield1 <morganfield1@...> wrote:--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Henry Stamp <henrystamp@g...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > interesting post. how much product will you get from this 10 lbs.
                      batch
                      > and how does it taste?
                      >
                      > -h
                      >
                      Hi Henry,
                      I should give you the mash bill first, not very complicated, 10 lbs.
                      white, seedless grapes, 10 lbs. white sugar, and enough water to
                      bring liquid up to the 6 gal. mark on the fermenter. That gave me an
                      O.G. of 1.07. Final was 1.000. I use Red Star Champaigne yeast for
                      all my stuff (will try bakers yeast on my next rum!) because of low
                      off flavor production (and I can pick it up just down the road!).
                      Having said that, I distill twice (packed column pot still), first
                      take is from 75% to 40%, second take is from 80% to 65%.
                      Now, I dilute mine to 50% then bottle. Before diluting, I get about
                      2.4 ltrs. Most grappa is not diluted when bottled, but I perfer to
                      serve mine without the complimentary pitcher of ice water.
                      As for how it tastes, that's a matter of opinion. Tastes like grappa
                      to me, but alittle smoother, and without that wet cardboard smell,
                      but wait, without that harsh edge, it's not grappa!!! To each his
                      own. What do ya want, have your cake and eat it, too!! (I've always
                      wondered what good cake is if you can't eat it?)
                      Tip one to the mysteries of life,
                      Morgan
                      >





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                    • miciofelice2003
                      Ciao king pin. may I answer to you about tails? If you can smell something like a wet cardboard you already are in tails. You have to smell frequently and to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 31, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Ciao king pin.

                        may I answer to you about tails?

                        If you can smell something like a wet cardboard you already are in
                        tails.
                        You have to smell frequently and to low your heat source, when you
                        are around 92 °C head temperature.

                        Tails are behind the corner and can suddenly jump into the distillate
                        you collect, especially if you used a lot the reflux.
                        You have to taste, too. Is better to taste diluting with the same
                        volume of low-content-of- salts water.
                        You can also rub with fingers (like counting money) a little bit of
                        distillate: if you are in tails you will fill the distillate a little
                        bit oily.

                        Old people, and me too, are used to collect a little bit of
                        distillate into the hands and then to strongly rub these ones and
                        then to smell the hands. Be sure that if you are in tails you will
                        smell very clearly the typical wet cardboard.

                        Stop to collect at the end of 92 °C, when the temperature start to
                        increase and point up.

                        Don't regret to lose some drops: you can continue to distil till the
                        alcohol is about 40 trl. Only you don't have to collect but to add to
                        the next batch to distil.


                        If your spirit is " cloudly" if diluted with water, don't worry: try
                        to freeze (not in the fridge but in the freezer, at -20 °C or less)
                        your distillate for 48 hours and then filter it with paper filter.
                        At that temperature it form some "macromolecules" and so it's easy to
                        lock them.

                        If this method doesn't work you have only to distil one more time. Of
                        course you have to dilute till 12 - 15 °trl your distillate.
                        Next time use low content of salts water and you will reduce the
                        possibility to have "clouds" into your distillate.

                        Let me know about your distillate.

                        ciao

                        micio felice

                        P.S. May be my english isn't good or "rich": sorry for it but I
                        learned only to 50 level of Shenker Method (smile)


                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, king pin
                        <kingpin_kingpin2001@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I'm pleased to see Dan getting some help from the forum and that
                        there are others interested in grappa. I, myself, made the still for
                        this purpose alone and was pleased to learn other recepies and try
                        dif things. Some very interesting info from Micio. I myself don't
                        use a seperator from the pot and the pomace, I find with a lower
                        heat, there is no burning of the pomace and the boiler. I do remove
                        as many stems as possible though. I find the comments about cutting
                        the final product interesting also. I'll be having to cut soon, just
                        one more batch of pomace left to do. I may have left too much in
                        regard to tails so I'm a bit concerned about clouding and what to
                        use. In the old days, from what I've learned, they used the tails
                        and late tails to cut the final product. I'm looking forward to
                        hearing of Dans run and final taste test. Its nice to keep
                        tradition. Now......when I have time and a good source for
                        prunes....it'll be time to try my hand at prugna :))
                        >
                        > morganfield1 <morganfield1@y...> wrote:--- In
                        Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Henry Stamp <henrystamp@g...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > interesting post. how much product will you get from this 10
                        lbs.
                        > batch
                        > > and how does it taste?
                        > >
                        > > -h
                        > >
                        > Hi Henry,
                        > I should give you the mash bill first, not very complicated, 10
                        lbs.
                        > white, seedless grapes, 10 lbs. white sugar, and enough water to
                        > bring liquid up to the 6 gal. mark on the fermenter. That gave me
                        an
                        > O.G. of 1.07. Final was 1.000. I use Red Star Champaigne yeast for
                        > all my stuff (will try bakers yeast on my next rum!) because of low
                        > off flavor production (and I can pick it up just down the road!).
                        > Having said that, I distill twice (packed column pot still), first
                        > take is from 75% to 40%, second take is from 80% to 65%.
                        > Now, I dilute mine to 50% then bottle. Before diluting, I get about
                        > 2.4 ltrs. Most grappa is not diluted when bottled, but I perfer to
                        > serve mine without the complimentary pitcher of ice water.
                        > As for how it tastes, that's a matter of opinion. Tastes like
                        grappa
                        > to me, but alittle smoother, and without that wet cardboard smell,
                        > but wait, without that harsh edge, it's not grappa!!! To each his
                        > own. What do ya want, have your cake and eat it, too!! (I've always
                        > wondered what good cake is if you can't eat it?)
                        > Tip one to the mysteries of life,
                        > Morgan
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                        > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                        >
                        >
                        >
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