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to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy

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  • miciofelice2003
    Dear Dan, I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at least I hope) to know more about our national distillate. Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 27, 2005
      Dear Dan,
      I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at least
      I hope) to know more about our national distillate.

      Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of the
      french person that codified the way to measure the content of alcohol
      in water.

      Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °trl., and
      so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.

      Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own alambhyc)
      and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
      (particularly calcium and magnesium).

      Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
      depending from the point of wiew.
      Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant level of
      salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
      soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
      collecting in tails zone.
      I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
      adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate that
      became "opaque".

      I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).

      Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula to
      get the right quantity of water to add to.
      Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what is
      exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after some
      months (and viceversa).

      When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
      distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But after
      some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!

      To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to destroy
      the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.

      So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.

      Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
      the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal dish-
      detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium bicarbonate.

      Then rinse with normal hot water.
      Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing out the
      condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
      treatment.

      Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a couple of
      times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if smell
      good.
      If you have the possibility give your distillate to a laboratory to
      check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian low
      allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a maximum of
      5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
      (normally 40 - 42 °trl).

      Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace wine.

      Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was checked by a
      laboratory.

      Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with water
      and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.

      What else? Nothing, I think.
    • morganfield1
      Dear Miciofelice, Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart for grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile ago,
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 27, 2005
        Dear Miciofelice,

        Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart for
        grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile ago,
        bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
        the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
        gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
        are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
        Tip one, Morgan

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
        <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Dan,
        > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
        least
        > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
        >
        > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of the
        > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
        alcohol
        > in water.
        >
        > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °trl., and
        > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
        >
        > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own alambhyc)
        > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
        > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
        >
        > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
        > depending from the point of wiew.
        > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant level of
        > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
        > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
        > collecting in tails zone.
        > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
        > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
        that
        > became "opaque".
        >
        > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
        >
        > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula to
        > get the right quantity of water to add to.
        > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what is
        > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
        some
        > months (and viceversa).
        >
        > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
        > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But after
        > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
        >
        > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to destroy
        > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
        >
        > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
        >
        > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
        > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal dish-
        > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium bicarbonate.
        >
        > Then rinse with normal hot water.
        > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing out
        the
        > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
        > treatment.
        >
        > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a couple
        of
        > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if smell
        > good.
        > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a laboratory to
        > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian low
        > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a maximum
        of
        > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
        > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
        >
        > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace wine.
        >
        > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was checked by
        a
        > laboratory.
        >
        > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
        water
        > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
        >
        > What else? Nothing, I think.
        >
      • miciofelice2003
        Hi Morgan. You moved me a little bit. And so, that s me that say thank you Morgan for your reply. take care of you micio felice ... for ... ago, ... the ...
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 27, 2005
          Hi Morgan.

          You moved me a little bit.
          And so, that's me that say "thank you Morgan" for your reply.

          take care of you

          micio felice




          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Miciofelice,
          >
          > Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart
          for
          > grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile
          ago,
          > bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
          > the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
          > gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
          > are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
          > Tip one, Morgan
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
          > <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear Dan,
          > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
          > least
          > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
          > >
          > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of
          the
          > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
          > alcohol
          > > in water.
          > >
          > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °trl.,
          and
          > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
          > >
          > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
          alambhyc)
          > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
          > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
          > >
          > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
          > > depending from the point of wiew.
          > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant level
          of
          > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
          > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
          > > collecting in tails zone.
          > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
          > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
          > that
          > > became "opaque".
          > >
          > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
          > >
          > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula
          to
          > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
          > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what is
          > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
          > some
          > > months (and viceversa).
          > >
          > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
          > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But after
          > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
          > >
          > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to destroy
          > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
          > >
          > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
          > >
          > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
          > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal
          dish-
          > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
          bicarbonate.
          > >
          > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
          > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing out
          > the
          > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
          > > treatment.
          > >
          > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
          couple
          > of
          > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
          smell
          > > good.
          > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a laboratory
          to
          > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian low
          > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
          maximum
          > of
          > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
          > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
          > >
          > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace wine.
          > >
          > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was checked
          by
          > a
          > > laboratory.
          > >
          > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
          > water
          > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
          > >
          > > What else? Nothing, I think.
          > >
          >
        • polenta222
          Salute Micio...and thank you for your patience and advice. The last two e-mails you sent to me have helped me so much, and I am very grateful. For awhile I
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 27, 2005
            Salute Micio...and thank you for your patience and advice. The last
            two e-mails you sent to me have helped me so much, and I am very
            grateful. For awhile I relied on my Italian relatives for advice on
            my wine and, now, my grappa. . .and they are very opinionated and
            CERTAIN about how to do things, so it is always tempting to follow
            their advice. But I have learned that much of what they were telling
            me was based on tradition rather than knowledge. The more I learn,
            the more I wonder how my family ever got a successful batch of
            anything in the bottle, but they did. Anyway, Micio, thank you again
            for your advice, your cautions, and your shortcuts---it is such
            welcome information and so timely. A presto. Cioa. Dan

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
            <miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Dan,
            > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
            least
            > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
            >
            > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of the
            > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
            alcohol
            > in water.
            >
            > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °trl., and
            > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
            >
            > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own alambhyc)
            > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
            > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
            >
            > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
            > depending from the point of wiew.
            > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant level of
            > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
            > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
            > collecting in tails zone.
            > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
            > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
            that
            > became "opaque".
            >
            > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
            >
            > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula to
            > get the right quantity of water to add to.
            > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what is
            > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
            some
            > months (and viceversa).
            >
            > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
            > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But after
            > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
            >
            > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to destroy
            > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
            >
            > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
            >
            > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
            > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal dish-
            > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium bicarbonate.
            >
            > Then rinse with normal hot water.
            > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing out
            the
            > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
            > treatment.
            >
            > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a couple
            of
            > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if smell
            > good.
            > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a laboratory to
            > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian low
            > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a maximum
            of
            > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
            > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
            >
            > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace wine.
            >
            > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was checked by
            a
            > laboratory.
            >
            > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
            water
            > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
            >
            > What else? Nothing, I think.
            >
          • Robert Hubble
            Morgan, This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their inputs. Thank you epecially , Micio. I have long been intersted in what I call rough
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 28, 2005
              Morgan,

              This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their inputs.
              Thank you epecially , Micio.

              I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies", like
              grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about grappa, the
              more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.

              After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we learn into a
              procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe and good
              grappa "by the book".

              The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide coating" on
              the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do 2 "steam runs"
              and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux, and
              specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect explored.

              Zymurgy Bob


              >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@...>
              >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
              >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
              >
              >Dear Miciofelice,
              >
              >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart for
              >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile ago,
              >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
              >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
              >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
              >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
              >Tip one, Morgan
              >
              >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
              ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Dan,
              > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
              >least
              > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
              > >
              > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of the
              > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
              >alcohol
              > > in water.
              > >
              > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 �trl., and
              > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
              > >
              > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own alambhyc)
              > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
              > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
              > >
              > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
              > > depending from the point of wiew.
              > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant level of
              > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
              > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
              > > collecting in tails zone.
              > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
              > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
              >that
              > > became "opaque".
              > >
              > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
              > >
              > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula to
              > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
              > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what is
              > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
              >some
              > > months (and viceversa).
              > >
              > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
              > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But after
              > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
              > >
              > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to destroy
              > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
              > >
              > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
              > >
              > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
              > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal dish-
              > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium bicarbonate.
              > >
              > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
              > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing out
              >the
              > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
              > > treatment.
              > >
              > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a couple
              >of
              > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if smell
              > > good.
              > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a laboratory to
              > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian low
              > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a maximum
              >of
              > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
              > > (normally 40 - 42 �trl).
              > >
              > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace wine.
              > >
              > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was checked by
              >a
              > > laboratory.
              > >
              > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
              >water
              > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
              > >
              > > What else? Nothing, I think.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >

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            • morganfield1
              Hi Robert, Make no mistake, I am not the one to ask about true grappa. My grappa is more of a colvado if I spelled that right. I crush 10 lbs. fresh,
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 28, 2005
                Hi Robert,
                Make no mistake, I am not the one to ask about true grappa. My grappa
                is more of a "colvado" if I spelled that right. I crush 10 lbs.
                fresh, seedless (no cyanide), grocery store grapes, boil them in
                water to soften them up so the yeasties can get at them (and
                sanititize them), ferment them on the skins, and wait. Then I strain
                out the skins (if you listen carefully, you can hear Uncle Joe
                rolling over in his grave), and distill.
                Any Italian grappa maker will tell you "ya godda distill on all the
                pumace, boy". Cleaning burnt grape skins of the bottom of the boiler
                looses it's charm fast for me. And most will say grappa made from
                seedless grapes!!! Well, "ok for leeteal ones, ha ha".
                True grappa, I believe, is made from wine pumace, including skins,
                seeds, stems (which I believe is one of the most important
                ingriedients, because of the bacteria introduced into the wash
                subsequently killed by alc. percentage of the wine, but not before it
                inparts it's flavor to the wine, and now the pumace wash. I could be
                totally off base here, JMSO). I don't use stems because of the
                bacteria introduced (lousey american strains), and that stems bring
                arsonic into the picture. Now theorietically (love my spelling, don't
                you!), arsonic, being a heavy metal, will stay in the bottom of the
                still boiler and not distill thru to the final product, but like a
                couple of great philosophers once said "No stems, no seeds, nothin'
                you don't need!".
                I believe making grappa, or any regional drink, is an art form, and
                because of the resourses available in that region, hard to truely
                replicate. I'll fumble along, though. Learning the finer points from
                the masters, like Micio, is a rare treat, and I thank him and all my
                other italian friends who help me along the way.
                Tip one, Morgan

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@h...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Morgan,
                >
                > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                inputs.
                > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                >
                >
              • miciofelice2003
                Hi Robert. Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different: grappa is made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is made by ... I
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 28, 2005
                  Hi Robert.

                  Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different: grappa is
                  made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is made
                  by ... I don't know, may be cherries.

                  About the oxide coating may be I wasn't good in explanations: what I
                  meant was that you have to clean the internal surfaces by every bad
                  stuff, yes: but you have to avoid every acid attack because this can
                  destroy the film of oxides.
                  Is better to use a basic attack, like a weak solution in water of
                  caustic soda and then to rinse with a solution of water and
                  bicarbonate of sodium. To clean by "grease", if not very dirty, is
                  enough a hot solution of water and dish-cleaner.
                  I say this because the first time I was wrong: I "brushed" the
                  internal surfaces with steel wool till to get a nice, polished
                  surface.

                  Then the effect was a lot of copper into my spirit due to acid attack
                  to "naked" metal by the acetic compounds of the head.

                  I had to flush with steam, then with water, then to heat with flame
                  (heat help a lot to create a new film of oxides) then to wait more
                  than a month to let my alambhyc outside to be flushed by natural air.
                  Copper oxides are very resistant and so is enough a treatment to
                  clean the impurities.
                  About soldering, is better to avoid the alloy tin-lead: or 100% tin,
                  or copper, or silver alloy or castolin must be used.
                  Anyway, oxides film must be in and must stay: is for protection of
                  metal to avoid the metal in solution to the spirit.

                  A trick used by asome people is to put a valve on the head of the
                  column to flush away the not-condensable acid vapours: when the head
                  temperature is about 70-75 °C they close the valve.

                  Here you can find some internet places of italian grappa makers (in
                  italian are called distillerie) that have the english translation,
                  too: I hope you will give a glance.

                  http://www.brunello.it/it/processi.php (this is good for process)

                  http://www.nardini.it/eng/index.htm (this is the site of the oldest
                  grappa distillery in the world)

                  http://www.primeuve.com/pages/english/index.html

                  http://www.bonollo.it/index.asp?action=testo&lingua=2&id=298

                  http://www.daponte.it/

                  http://www.bertagnolli.it/

                  http://www.distillerietrentine.it/eng/azienda.html#

                  http://www.sari.it/pagine_ita/liquoridistillati/grappa.html


                  If those aren't enough you can try on Google
                  about "grappa", "distillazione della grappa", "grappa distillerie",
                  and so on.

                  I'm preparing something about grappa, when will be ready I'll put on
                  the Forum.

                  Ciao

                  micio felice



                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@h...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Morgan,
                  >
                  > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                  inputs.
                  > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                  >
                  > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
                  like
                  > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
                  grappa, the
                  > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
                  >
                  > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we learn
                  into a
                  > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe and
                  good
                  > grappa "by the book".
                  >
                  > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
                  coating" on
                  > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
                  2 "steam runs"
                  > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux, and
                  > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
                  explored.
                  >
                  > Zymurgy Bob
                  >
                  >
                  > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
                  > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
                  > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
                  > >
                  > >Dear Miciofelice,
                  > >
                  > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart
                  for
                  > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile
                  ago,
                  > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
                  > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
                  > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
                  > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
                  > >Tip one, Morgan
                  > >
                  > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                  > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Dear Dan,
                  > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
                  > >least
                  > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of
                  the
                  > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
                  > >alcohol
                  > > > in water.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °trl.,
                  and
                  > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
                  > > >
                  > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
                  alambhyc)
                  > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
                  > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
                  > > >
                  > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
                  > > > depending from the point of wiew.
                  > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
                  level of
                  > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
                  > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
                  > > > collecting in tails zone.
                  > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
                  > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
                  > >that
                  > > > became "opaque".
                  > > >
                  > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
                  > > >
                  > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula
                  to
                  > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
                  > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what
                  is
                  > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
                  > >some
                  > > > months (and viceversa).
                  > > >
                  > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
                  > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
                  after
                  > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
                  > > >
                  > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
                  destroy
                  > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
                  > > >
                  > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
                  > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal
                  dish-
                  > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
                  bicarbonate.
                  > > >
                  > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
                  > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing
                  out
                  > >the
                  > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
                  > > > treatment.
                  > > >
                  > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
                  couple
                  > >of
                  > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
                  smell
                  > > > good.
                  > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
                  laboratory to
                  > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian
                  low
                  > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
                  maximum
                  > >of
                  > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
                  > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
                  > > >
                  > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
                  wine.
                  > > >
                  > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
                  checked by
                  > >a
                  > > > laboratory.
                  > > >
                  > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
                  > >water
                  > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
                  > > >
                  > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
                  it's FREE!
                  > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
                  >
                • miciofelice2003
                  Hi Morgan. I m not a master, my God: I m only an amateur that enioy to distillate some liters of grappa , even if isn t grappa but only brandy . Grappa is
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 28, 2005
                    Hi Morgan.

                    I'm not a master, my God: I'm only an amateur that enioy to
                    distillate some liters of "grappa", even if isn't grappa but
                    only "brandy". Grappa is what is made by grapes pomace, that is the
                    skin of the grape, the seeds and not the stems. Years ago they used
                    to put everything (also stems) into the boiler, but now not anymore.
                    Stems give a rough taste: now people are oriented to soft taste.

                    I read, horrified (smile), that you has to clean the bottom of boiler
                    because burnt grape skins!!!!

                    Grape skins doesn't have to get in touch with ANY hot surface.
                    You have to put grape pomace into a metallic basket made by a grid,
                    otherwise is possible to get a formation of furfural. At least, the
                    taste isn't very good because you will taste something "burnt".
                    Another way to distillate grape pomace is to put those ones on a
                    surface, made by a metallic grid, placed to divide the boiler in two
                    parts: the upper and the lower.
                    Up stay grape pomace, down stay some water. Such in this way steam
                    cross the grape pomace and strip the alcohol and aromatic stuff.
                    In the former case instead to use a basket is possible to let grape
                    pomace free into the water: then is better (almost compulsory) to
                    heat the boiler NOT with direct flame but by using a bigger vessel
                    (in which is plunged the boiler. Between the two vessels a boiling
                    water heat the internal boiler, to assure a soft and distributed
                    heating. In Italian language this heating way is called "bagnomaria".
                    Such in this way is possible to avoid to burn grape pomaces.


                    I don't use grape pomace.

                    I prefer to use wine pomace, or second wine.
                    Secon wine is, in my mind, the wine you get from a second squeeze of
                    fermented grape pomace. Fermented because grape pomaces lied with
                    wine for a while during fermentation of that one, and so are rich of
                    alcohol.

                    So, I can say that I distil wine, even if not fine wine.

                    And I use red second wine because richer in alcohol rate.

                    So, what I get isn't grappa and isn't cognac because that one is
                    obtained by white wine only in a particular region of France.

                    But, anyway, I drink it the same whithout asking more about.

                    Ciao

                    micio felice



                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Robert,
                    > Make no mistake, I am not the one to ask about true grappa. My
                    grappa
                    > is more of a "colvado" if I spelled that right. I crush 10 lbs.
                    > fresh, seedless (no cyanide), grocery store grapes, boil them in
                    > water to soften them up so the yeasties can get at them (and
                    > sanititize them), ferment them on the skins, and wait. Then I
                    strain
                    > out the skins (if you listen carefully, you can hear Uncle Joe
                    > rolling over in his grave), and distill.
                    > Any Italian grappa maker will tell you "ya godda distill on all the
                    > pumace, boy". Cleaning burnt grape skins of the bottom of the
                    boiler
                    > looses it's charm fast for me. And most will say grappa made from
                    > seedless grapes!!! Well, "ok for leeteal ones, ha ha".
                    > True grappa, I believe, is made from wine pumace, including skins,
                    > seeds, stems (which I believe is one of the most important
                    > ingriedients, because of the bacteria introduced into the wash
                    > subsequently killed by alc. percentage of the wine, but not before
                    it
                    > inparts it's flavor to the wine, and now the pumace wash. I could
                    be
                    > totally off base here, JMSO). I don't use stems because of the
                    > bacteria introduced (lousey american strains), and that stems bring
                    > arsonic into the picture. Now theorietically (love my spelling,
                    don't
                    > you!), arsonic, being a heavy metal, will stay in the bottom of the
                    > still boiler and not distill thru to the final product, but like a
                    > couple of great philosophers once said "No stems, no seeds, nothin'
                    > you don't need!".
                    > I believe making grappa, or any regional drink, is an art form, and
                    > because of the resourses available in that region, hard to truely
                    > replicate. I'll fumble along, though. Learning the finer points
                    from
                    > the masters, like Micio, is a rare treat, and I thank him and all
                    my
                    > other italian friends who help me along the way.
                    > Tip one, Morgan
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble"
                    <zymurgybob@h...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Morgan,
                    > >
                    > > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                    > inputs.
                    > > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Henry Stamp
                    interesting post. how much product will you get from this 10 lbs. batch and how does it taste? -h
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 28, 2005
                      interesting post. how much product will you get from this 10 lbs. batch
                      and how does it taste?

                      -h

                      morganfield1 wrote:

                      >Hi Robert,
                      >Make no mistake, I am not the one to ask about true grappa. My grappa
                      >is more of a "colvado" if I spelled that right. I crush 10 lbs.
                      >fresh, seedless (no cyanide), grocery store grapes, boil them in
                      >water to soften them up so the yeasties can get at them (and
                      >sanititize them), ferment them on the skins, and wait. Then I strain
                      >out the skins (if you listen carefully, you can hear Uncle Joe
                      >rolling over in his grave), and distill.
                      >Any Italian grappa maker will tell you "ya godda distill on all the
                      >pumace, boy". Cleaning burnt grape skins of the bottom of the boiler
                      >looses it's charm fast for me. And most will say grappa made from
                      >seedless grapes!!! Well, "ok for leeteal ones, ha ha".
                      >True grappa, I believe, is made from wine pumace, including skins,
                      >seeds, stems (which I believe is one of the most important
                      >ingriedients, because of the bacteria introduced into the wash
                      >subsequently killed by alc. percentage of the wine, but not before it
                      >inparts it's flavor to the wine, and now the pumace wash. I could be
                      >totally off base here, JMSO). I don't use stems because of the
                      >bacteria introduced (lousey american strains), and that stems bring
                      >arsonic into the picture. Now theorietically (love my spelling, don't
                      >you!), arsonic, being a heavy metal, will stay in the bottom of the
                      >still boiler and not distill thru to the final product, but like a
                      >couple of great philosophers once said "No stems, no seeds, nothin'
                      >you don't need!".
                      >I believe making grappa, or any regional drink, is an art form, and
                      >because of the resourses available in that region, hard to truely
                      >replicate. I'll fumble along, though. Learning the finer points from
                      >the masters, like Micio, is a rare treat, and I thank him and all my
                      >other italian friends who help me along the way.
                      >Tip one, Morgan
                      >
                      >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@h...>
                      >wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >>Morgan,
                      >>
                      >>This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                      >>
                      >>
                      >inputs.
                      >
                      >
                      >>Thank you epecially , Micio.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                      > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • duds2u
                      Hi Micio, I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of Italian descent fruit
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 28, 2005
                        Hi Micio,
                        I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in
                        Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of
                        Italian descent fruit growers and have had the "pleasure" or
                        otherwise of trying the home made grappa.

                        More importantly I have also had the pleaseure of drinking and still
                        have one bottle in my cellar of Brunello Fattoria Dei Barbi which I
                        am trying to find the right occasion to open.
                        Ciao
                        Mal T

                        Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003" <miciofelice2003@y...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Robert.
                        >
                        > Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different: grappa
                        is
                        > made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is made
                        > by ... I don't know, may be cherries.
                        >
                        > About the oxide coating may be I wasn't good in explanations: what
                        I
                        > meant was that you have to clean the internal surfaces by every
                        bad
                        > stuff, yes: but you have to avoid every acid attack because this
                        can
                        > destroy the film of oxides.
                        > Is better to use a basic attack, like a weak solution in water of
                        > caustic soda and then to rinse with a solution of water and
                        > bicarbonate of sodium. To clean by "grease", if not very dirty, is
                        > enough a hot solution of water and dish-cleaner.
                        > I say this because the first time I was wrong: I "brushed" the
                        > internal surfaces with steel wool till to get a nice, polished
                        > surface.
                        >
                        > Then the effect was a lot of copper into my spirit due to acid
                        attack
                        > to "naked" metal by the acetic compounds of the head.
                        >
                        > I had to flush with steam, then with water, then to heat with
                        flame
                        > (heat help a lot to create a new film of oxides) then to wait more
                        > than a month to let my alambhyc outside to be flushed by natural
                        air.
                        > Copper oxides are very resistant and so is enough a treatment to
                        > clean the impurities.
                        > About soldering, is better to avoid the alloy tin-lead: or 100%
                        tin,
                        > or copper, or silver alloy or castolin must be used.
                        > Anyway, oxides film must be in and must stay: is for protection of
                        > metal to avoid the metal in solution to the spirit.
                        >
                        > A trick used by asome people is to put a valve on the head of the
                        > column to flush away the not-condensable acid vapours: when the
                        head
                        > temperature is about 70-75 °C they close the valve.
                        >
                        > Here you can find some internet places of italian grappa makers
                        (in
                        > italian are called distillerie) that have the english translation,
                        > too: I hope you will give a glance.
                        >
                        > http://www.brunello.it/it/processi.php (this is good for process)
                        >
                        > http://www.nardini.it/eng/index.htm (this is the site of the
                        oldest
                        > grappa distillery in the world)
                        >
                        > http://www.primeuve.com/pages/english/index.html
                        >
                        > http://www.bonollo.it/index.asp?action=testo&lingua=2&id=298
                        >
                        > http://www.daponte.it/
                        >
                        > http://www.bertagnolli.it/
                        >
                        > http://www.distillerietrentine.it/eng/azienda.html#
                        >
                        > http://www.sari.it/pagine_ita/liquoridistillati/grappa.html
                        >
                        >
                        > If those aren't enough you can try on Google
                        > about "grappa", "distillazione della grappa", "grappa
                        distillerie",
                        > and so on.
                        >
                        > I'm preparing something about grappa, when will be ready I'll put
                        on
                        > the Forum.
                        >
                        > Ciao
                        >
                        > micio felice
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble"
                        <zymurgybob@h...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Morgan,
                        > >
                        > > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                        > inputs.
                        > > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                        > >
                        > > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
                        > like
                        > > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
                        > grappa, the
                        > > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
                        > >
                        > > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we
                        learn
                        > into a
                        > > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe
                        and
                        > good
                        > > grappa "by the book".
                        > >
                        > > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
                        > coating" on
                        > > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
                        > 2 "steam runs"
                        > > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux,
                        and
                        > > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
                        > explored.
                        > >
                        > > Zymurgy Bob
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
                        > > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
                        > > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
                        > > >
                        > > >Dear Miciofelice,
                        > > >
                        > > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my
                        heart
                        > for
                        > > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away
                        awhile
                        > ago,
                        > > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there
                        not
                        > > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old
                        italian
                        > > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of
                        them
                        > > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
                        > > >Tip one, Morgan
                        > > >
                        > > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                        > > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Dear Dan,
                        > > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody
                        (at
                        > > >least
                        > > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name
                        of
                        > the
                        > > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
                        > > >alcohol
                        > > > > in water.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °
                        trl.,
                        > and
                        > > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
                        > alambhyc)
                        > > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
                        > > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
                        > > > > depending from the point of wiew.
                        > > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
                        > level of
                        > > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became
                        not
                        > > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
                        > > > > collecting in tails zone.
                        > > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel
                        oils,
                        > > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your
                        distillate
                        > > >that
                        > > > > became "opaque".
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a
                        formula
                        > to
                        > > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
                        > > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste:
                        what
                        > is
                        > > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal
                        after
                        > > >some
                        > > > > months (and viceversa).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong:
                        the
                        > > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
                        > after
                        > > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
                        > destroy
                        > > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
                        > > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the
                        normal
                        > dish-
                        > > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
                        > bicarbonate.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
                        > > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam
                        flowing
                        > out
                        > > >the
                        > > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat
                        the
                        > > > > treatment.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
                        > couple
                        > > >of
                        > > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
                        > smell
                        > > > > good.
                        > > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
                        > laboratory to
                        > > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the
                        italian
                        > low
                        > > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
                        > maximum
                        > > >of
                        > > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
                        > > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
                        > wine.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
                        > checked by
                        > > >a
                        > > > > laboratory.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only
                        with
                        > > >water
                        > > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > _________________________________________________________________
                        > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
                        > it's FREE!
                        > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
                        > >
                        >
                      • duds2u
                        Hi Micio, I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of Italian descent fruit
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 28, 2005
                          Hi Micio,
                          I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in
                          Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of
                          Italian descent fruit growers and have had the "pleasure" or
                          otherwise of trying the home made grappa.

                          More importantly I have also had the pleaseure of drinking and still
                          have one bottle in my cellar of Brunello Fattoria Dei Barbi which I
                          am trying to find the right occasion to open.
                          Ciao
                          Mal T

                          Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003" <miciofelice2003@y...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Robert.
                          >
                          > Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different: grappa
                          is
                          > made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is made
                          > by ... I don't know, may be cherries.
                          >
                          > About the oxide coating may be I wasn't good in explanations: what
                          I
                          > meant was that you have to clean the internal surfaces by every
                          bad
                          > stuff, yes: but you have to avoid every acid attack because this
                          can
                          > destroy the film of oxides.
                          > Is better to use a basic attack, like a weak solution in water of
                          > caustic soda and then to rinse with a solution of water and
                          > bicarbonate of sodium. To clean by "grease", if not very dirty, is
                          > enough a hot solution of water and dish-cleaner.
                          > I say this because the first time I was wrong: I "brushed" the
                          > internal surfaces with steel wool till to get a nice, polished
                          > surface.
                          >
                          > Then the effect was a lot of copper into my spirit due to acid
                          attack
                          > to "naked" metal by the acetic compounds of the head.
                          >
                          > I had to flush with steam, then with water, then to heat with
                          flame
                          > (heat help a lot to create a new film of oxides) then to wait more
                          > than a month to let my alambhyc outside to be flushed by natural
                          air.
                          > Copper oxides are very resistant and so is enough a treatment to
                          > clean the impurities.
                          > About soldering, is better to avoid the alloy tin-lead: or 100%
                          tin,
                          > or copper, or silver alloy or castolin must be used.
                          > Anyway, oxides film must be in and must stay: is for protection of
                          > metal to avoid the metal in solution to the spirit.
                          >
                          > A trick used by asome people is to put a valve on the head of the
                          > column to flush away the not-condensable acid vapours: when the
                          head
                          > temperature is about 70-75 °C they close the valve.
                          >
                          > Here you can find some internet places of italian grappa makers
                          (in
                          > italian are called distillerie) that have the english translation,
                          > too: I hope you will give a glance.
                          >
                          > http://www.brunello.it/it/processi.php (this is good for process)
                          >
                          > http://www.nardini.it/eng/index.htm (this is the site of the
                          oldest
                          > grappa distillery in the world)
                          >
                          > http://www.primeuve.com/pages/english/index.html
                          >
                          > http://www.bonollo.it/index.asp?action=testo&lingua=2&id=298
                          >
                          > http://www.daponte.it/
                          >
                          > http://www.bertagnolli.it/
                          >
                          > http://www.distillerietrentine.it/eng/azienda.html#
                          >
                          > http://www.sari.it/pagine_ita/liquoridistillati/grappa.html
                          >
                          >
                          > If those aren't enough you can try on Google
                          > about "grappa", "distillazione della grappa", "grappa
                          distillerie",
                          > and so on.
                          >
                          > I'm preparing something about grappa, when will be ready I'll put
                          on
                          > the Forum.
                          >
                          > Ciao
                          >
                          > micio felice
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble"
                          <zymurgybob@h...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Morgan,
                          > >
                          > > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                          > inputs.
                          > > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                          > >
                          > > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
                          > like
                          > > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
                          > grappa, the
                          > > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
                          > >
                          > > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we
                          learn
                          > into a
                          > > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe
                          and
                          > good
                          > > grappa "by the book".
                          > >
                          > > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
                          > coating" on
                          > > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
                          > 2 "steam runs"
                          > > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux,
                          and
                          > > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
                          > explored.
                          > >
                          > > Zymurgy Bob
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
                          > > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
                          > > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
                          > > >
                          > > >Dear Miciofelice,
                          > > >
                          > > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my
                          heart
                          > for
                          > > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away
                          awhile
                          > ago,
                          > > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there
                          not
                          > > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old
                          italian
                          > > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of
                          them
                          > > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
                          > > >Tip one, Morgan
                          > > >
                          > > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                          > > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dear Dan,
                          > > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody
                          (at
                          > > >least
                          > > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name
                          of
                          > the
                          > > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
                          > > >alcohol
                          > > > > in water.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °
                          trl.,
                          > and
                          > > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
                          > alambhyc)
                          > > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
                          > > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
                          > > > > depending from the point of wiew.
                          > > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
                          > level of
                          > > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became
                          not
                          > > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
                          > > > > collecting in tails zone.
                          > > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel
                          oils,
                          > > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your
                          distillate
                          > > >that
                          > > > > became "opaque".
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a
                          formula
                          > to
                          > > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
                          > > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste:
                          what
                          > is
                          > > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal
                          after
                          > > >some
                          > > > > months (and viceversa).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong:
                          the
                          > > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
                          > after
                          > > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
                          > destroy
                          > > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
                          > > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the
                          normal
                          > dish-
                          > > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
                          > bicarbonate.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
                          > > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam
                          flowing
                          > out
                          > > >the
                          > > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat
                          the
                          > > > > treatment.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
                          > couple
                          > > >of
                          > > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
                          > smell
                          > > > > good.
                          > > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
                          > laboratory to
                          > > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the
                          italian
                          > low
                          > > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
                          > maximum
                          > > >of
                          > > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
                          > > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
                          > wine.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
                          > checked by
                          > > >a
                          > > > > laboratory.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only
                          with
                          > > >water
                          > > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
                          > it's FREE!
                          > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
                          > >
                          >
                        • miciofelice2003
                          Hi duds2u. If you mean that the bottle you have is the Brunello di Montalcino be happy !!! Brunello di Montalcino is a great wine: high alcohol content, long
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 29, 2005
                            Hi duds2u.

                            If you mean that the bottle you have is the "Brunello di Montalcino"
                            be happy !!!

                            Brunello di Montalcino is a great wine: high alcohol content, long
                            lasting a lot of years (more than 15 years), big and full personality.

                            In my opinion, with Barolo and Amarone di Recioto that one is the
                            third big italian wine.

                            So, drink it in a big and good occasion, with the right food like
                            game, rosts, stew.

                            ciao

                            micio felice



                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "duds2u" <taylormc@b...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Micio,
                            > I have been folowing your posts with pleasure. I grew up in
                            > Stanthorp in QLD, Australia where there is a high percentage of
                            > Italian descent fruit growers and have had the "pleasure" or
                            > otherwise of trying the home made grappa.
                            >
                            > More importantly I have also had the pleaseure of drinking and
                            still
                            > have one bottle in my cellar of Brunello Fattoria Dei Barbi which
                            I
                            > am trying to find the right occasion to open.
                            > Ciao
                            > Mal T
                            >
                            > Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                            <miciofelice2003@y...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Robert.
                            > >
                            > > Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different:
                            grappa
                            > is
                            > > made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is
                            made
                            > > by ... I don't know, may be cherries.
                            > >
                            > > About the oxide coating may be I wasn't good in explanations:
                            what
                            > I
                            > > meant was that you have to clean the internal surfaces by every
                            > bad
                            > > stuff, yes: but you have to avoid every acid attack because this
                            > can
                            > > destroy the film of oxides.
                            > > Is better to use a basic attack, like a weak solution in water of
                            > > caustic soda and then to rinse with a solution of water and
                            > > bicarbonate of sodium. To clean by "grease", if not very dirty,
                            is
                            > > enough a hot solution of water and dish-cleaner.
                            > > I say this because the first time I was wrong: I "brushed" the
                            > > internal surfaces with steel wool till to get a nice, polished
                            > > surface.
                            > >
                            > > Then the effect was a lot of copper into my spirit due to acid
                            > attack
                            > > to "naked" metal by the acetic compounds of the head.
                            > >
                            > > I had to flush with steam, then with water, then to heat with
                            > flame
                            > > (heat help a lot to create a new film of oxides) then to wait
                            more
                            > > than a month to let my alambhyc outside to be flushed by natural
                            > air.
                            > > Copper oxides are very resistant and so is enough a treatment to
                            > > clean the impurities.
                            > > About soldering, is better to avoid the alloy tin-lead: or 100%
                            > tin,
                            > > or copper, or silver alloy or castolin must be used.
                            > > Anyway, oxides film must be in and must stay: is for protection
                            of
                            > > metal to avoid the metal in solution to the spirit.
                            > >
                            > > A trick used by asome people is to put a valve on the head of the
                            > > column to flush away the not-condensable acid vapours: when the
                            > head
                            > > temperature is about 70-75 °C they close the valve.
                            > >
                            > > Here you can find some internet places of italian grappa makers
                            > (in
                            > > italian are called distillerie) that have the english
                            translation,
                            > > too: I hope you will give a glance.
                            > >
                            > > http://www.brunello.it/it/processi.php (this is good for process)
                            > >
                            > > http://www.nardini.it/eng/index.htm (this is the site of the
                            > oldest
                            > > grappa distillery in the world)
                            > >
                            > > http://www.primeuve.com/pages/english/index.html
                            > >
                            > > http://www.bonollo.it/index.asp?action=testo&lingua=2&id=298
                            > >
                            > > http://www.daponte.it/
                            > >
                            > > http://www.bertagnolli.it/
                            > >
                            > > http://www.distillerietrentine.it/eng/azienda.html#
                            > >
                            > > http://www.sari.it/pagine_ita/liquoridistillati/grappa.html
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > If those aren't enough you can try on Google
                            > > about "grappa", "distillazione della grappa", "grappa
                            > distillerie",
                            > > and so on.
                            > >
                            > > I'm preparing something about grappa, when will be ready I'll put
                            > on
                            > > the Forum.
                            > >
                            > > Ciao
                            > >
                            > > micio felice
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble"
                            > <zymurgybob@h...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Morgan,
                            > > >
                            > > > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                            > > inputs.
                            > > > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk
                            brandies",
                            > > like
                            > > > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
                            > > grappa, the
                            > > > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
                            > > >
                            > > > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we
                            > learn
                            > > into a
                            > > > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe
                            > and
                            > > good
                            > > > grappa "by the book".
                            > > >
                            > > > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
                            > > coating" on
                            > > > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
                            > > 2 "steam runs"
                            > > > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux,
                            > and
                            > > > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
                            > > explored.
                            > > >
                            > > > Zymurgy Bob
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
                            > > > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
                            > > > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Dear Miciofelice,
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my
                            > heart
                            > > for
                            > > > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away
                            > awhile
                            > > ago,
                            > > > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there
                            > not
                            > > > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old
                            > italian
                            > > > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of
                            > them
                            > > > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
                            > > > >Tip one, Morgan
                            > > > >
                            > > > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                            > > > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Dear Dan,
                            > > > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody
                            > (at
                            > > > >least
                            > > > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name
                            > of
                            > > the
                            > > > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content
                            of
                            > > > >alcohol
                            > > > > > in water.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °
                            > trl.,
                            > > and
                            > > > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
                            > > alambhyc)
                            > > > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
                            > > > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or
                            not
                            > > > > > depending from the point of wiew.
                            > > > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
                            > > level of
                            > > > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became
                            > not
                            > > > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was
                            wrong
                            > > > > > collecting in tails zone.
                            > > > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel
                            > oils,
                            > > > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your
                            > distillate
                            > > > >that
                            > > > > > became "opaque".
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a
                            > formula
                            > > to
                            > > > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
                            > > > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste:
                            > what
                            > > is
                            > > > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal
                            > after
                            > > > >some
                            > > > > > months (and viceversa).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was
                            wrong:
                            > the
                            > > > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
                            > > after
                            > > > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
                            > > destroy
                            > > > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
                            > > > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the
                            > normal
                            > > dish-
                            > > > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
                            > > bicarbonate.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
                            > > > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam
                            > flowing
                            > > out
                            > > > >the
                            > > > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat
                            > the
                            > > > > > treatment.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
                            > > couple
                            > > > >of
                            > > > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even
                            if
                            > > smell
                            > > > > > good.
                            > > > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
                            > > laboratory to
                            > > > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the
                            > italian
                            > > low
                            > > > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
                            > > maximum
                            > > > >of
                            > > > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
                            > > > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
                            > > wine.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
                            > > checked by
                            > > > >a
                            > > > > > laboratory.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only
                            > with
                            > > > >water
                            > > > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            _________________________________________________________________
                            > > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
                            > > it's FREE!
                            > > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Robert Hubble
                            Micio, I understand the recipe difference between grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser; the similarity I referred to is their social and economic aspect. They
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 29, 2005
                              Micio,

                              I understand the recipe difference between grappa, slivovitz, and
                              kirschwasser; the similarity I referred to is their social and economic
                              aspect.

                              They all have their origins in the peasant classes, made from inexpensive
                              and readily-available materials, all are consumed "in the white", unaged,
                              and produced on primitive hardware. All are usually consumed at higher
                              proofs than "more sophisticated" liquors. Out American equivalent is "white
                              lightening", or illegal mountain whisky.

                              I have made slivovitz and kirschwasser, but my versions lask the character
                              of the originals; even at proofs from 110 to 120, mine lack the
                              clutch-your-throat harshness of these country eau-de-vies. I have to assume
                              my still removes harshness by design. Normally I'm happy about that, but
                              I'd still like to produce the "rough folk brandies".

                              Could anyone on the list address the apparent opposites of exposed copper to
                              reduce sulfides in the distillate, and Micio's carefully developed oxde film
                              to reduce copper compounds in the distillate?

                              Thnaks to all,

                              Zymurgy Bob


                              >From: "miciofelice2003" <miciofelice2003@...>
                              >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
                              >Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:41:13 -0000
                              >
                              >Hi Robert.
                              >
                              >Grappa, Slivovitz ank kirsh are different, quite different: grappa is
                              >made by grape pomace, slivovitz is made by plums and kirsh is made
                              >by ... I don't know, may be cherries.
                              >
                              >About the oxide coating may be I wasn't good in explanations: what I
                              >meant was that you have to clean the internal surfaces by every bad
                              >stuff, yes: but you have to avoid every acid attack because this can
                              >destroy the film of oxides.
                              >Is better to use a basic attack, like a weak solution in water of
                              >caustic soda and then to rinse with a solution of water and
                              >bicarbonate of sodium. To clean by "grease", if not very dirty, is
                              >enough a hot solution of water and dish-cleaner.
                              >I say this because the first time I was wrong: I "brushed" the
                              >internal surfaces with steel wool till to get a nice, polished
                              >surface.
                              >
                              >Then the effect was a lot of copper into my spirit due to acid attack
                              >to "naked" metal by the acetic compounds of the head.
                              >
                              >I had to flush with steam, then with water, then to heat with flame
                              >(heat help a lot to create a new film of oxides) then to wait more
                              >than a month to let my alambhyc outside to be flushed by natural air.
                              >Copper oxides are very resistant and so is enough a treatment to
                              >clean the impurities.
                              >About soldering, is better to avoid the alloy tin-lead: or 100% tin,
                              >or copper, or silver alloy or castolin must be used.
                              >Anyway, oxides film must be in and must stay: is for protection of
                              >metal to avoid the metal in solution to the spirit.
                              >
                              >A trick used by asome people is to put a valve on the head of the
                              >column to flush away the not-condensable acid vapours: when the head
                              >temperature is about 70-75 �C they close the valve.
                              >
                              >Here you can find some internet places of italian grappa makers (in
                              >italian are called distillerie) that have the english translation,
                              >too: I hope you will give a glance.
                              >
                              >http://www.brunello.it/it/processi.php (this is good for process)
                              >
                              >http://www.nardini.it/eng/index.htm (this is the site of the oldest
                              >grappa distillery in the world)
                              >
                              >http://www.primeuve.com/pages/english/index.html
                              >
                              >http://www.bonollo.it/index.asp?action=testo&lingua=2&id=298
                              >
                              >http://www.daponte.it/
                              >
                              >http://www.bertagnolli.it/
                              >
                              >http://www.distillerietrentine.it/eng/azienda.html#
                              >
                              >http://www.sari.it/pagine_ita/liquoridistillati/grappa.html
                              >
                              >
                              >If those aren't enough you can try on Google
                              >about "grappa", "distillazione della grappa", "grappa distillerie",
                              >and so on.
                              >
                              >I'm preparing something about grappa, when will be ready I'll put on
                              >the Forum.
                              >
                              >Ciao
                              >
                              >micio felice
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@h...>
                              >wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Morgan,
                              > >
                              > > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                              >inputs.
                              > > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                              > >
                              > > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
                              >like
                              > > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
                              >grappa, the
                              > > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
                              > >
                              > > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we learn
                              >into a
                              > > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe and
                              >good
                              > > grappa "by the book".
                              > >
                              > > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
                              >coating" on
                              > > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
                              >2 "steam runs"
                              > > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux, and
                              > > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
                              >explored.
                              > >
                              > > Zymurgy Bob
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
                              > > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              > > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              > > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
                              > > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
                              > > >
                              > > >Dear Miciofelice,
                              > > >
                              > > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart
                              >for
                              > > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile
                              >ago,
                              > > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
                              > > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
                              > > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
                              > > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
                              > > >Tip one, Morgan
                              > > >
                              > > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                              > > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dear Dan,
                              > > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
                              > > >least
                              > > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of
                              >the
                              > > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
                              > > >alcohol
                              > > > > in water.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 �trl.,
                              >and
                              > > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
                              >alambhyc)
                              > > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
                              > > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
                              > > > > depending from the point of wiew.
                              > > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
                              >level of
                              > > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
                              > > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
                              > > > > collecting in tails zone.
                              > > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
                              > > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
                              > > >that
                              > > > > became "opaque".
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula
                              >to
                              > > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
                              > > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what
                              >is
                              > > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
                              > > >some
                              > > > > months (and viceversa).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
                              > > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
                              >after
                              > > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
                              >destroy
                              > > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
                              > > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal
                              >dish-
                              > > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
                              >bicarbonate.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
                              > > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing
                              >out
                              > > >the
                              > > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
                              > > > > treatment.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
                              >couple
                              > > >of
                              > > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
                              >smell
                              > > > > good.
                              > > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
                              >laboratory to
                              > > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian
                              >low
                              > > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
                              >maximum
                              > > >of
                              > > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
                              > > > > (normally 40 - 42 �trl).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
                              >wine.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
                              >checked by
                              > > >a
                              > > > > laboratory.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
                              > > >water
                              > > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > _________________________________________________________________
                              > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
                              >it's FREE!
                              > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

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                            • polenta222
                              Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his advice not to use any acidic
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 30, 2005
                                Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and
                                brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his advice
                                not to use any acidic (even vinegar) to season and/or clean a copper
                                still. Surprised because I have been building a scrap book of
                                distilling advice from this site and others over the past year---and
                                the section on CLEANING AND SANITIZING is loaded with tips from
                                longtime distillers advising just the opposite of what Micio advises,
                                including distilling batches of raw vinegar to clean the inside of
                                the work and couplings. Would someone else like to weigh in on this?
                                My new 30-liter still from Italy is solid copper and I am thankful
                                that I haven't used it yet. I'm going to wait until I hear from you
                                regulars out there. (Thanks again, Micio, gratzie mille). Dan


                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@h...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Morgan,
                                >
                                > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                                inputs.
                                > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                                >
                                > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
                                like
                                > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
                                grappa, the
                                > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
                                >
                                > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we learn
                                into a
                                > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe and
                                good
                                > grappa "by the book".
                                >
                                > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
                                coating" on
                                > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
                                2 "steam runs"
                                > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux, and
                                > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
                                explored.
                                >
                                > Zymurgy Bob
                                >
                                >
                                > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
                                > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
                                > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
                                > >
                                > >Dear Miciofelice,
                                > >
                                > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart
                                for
                                > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile
                                ago,
                                > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
                                > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
                                > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
                                > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
                                > >Tip one, Morgan
                                > >
                                > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                                > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Dear Dan,
                                > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
                                > >least
                                > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
                                > > >
                                > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of
                                the
                                > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
                                > >alcohol
                                > > > in water.
                                > > >
                                > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °trl.,
                                and
                                > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
                                > > >
                                > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
                                alambhyc)
                                > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
                                > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
                                > > >
                                > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
                                > > > depending from the point of wiew.
                                > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
                                level of
                                > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
                                > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
                                > > > collecting in tails zone.
                                > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
                                > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
                                > >that
                                > > > became "opaque".
                                > > >
                                > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
                                > > >
                                > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula
                                to
                                > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
                                > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what
                                is
                                > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
                                > >some
                                > > > months (and viceversa).
                                > > >
                                > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
                                > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
                                after
                                > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
                                > > >
                                > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
                                destroy
                                > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
                                > > >
                                > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
                                > > >
                                > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
                                > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal
                                dish-
                                > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
                                bicarbonate.
                                > > >
                                > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
                                > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing
                                out
                                > >the
                                > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
                                > > > treatment.
                                > > >
                                > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
                                couple
                                > >of
                                > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
                                smell
                                > > > good.
                                > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
                                laboratory to
                                > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian
                                low
                                > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
                                maximum
                                > >of
                                > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
                                > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
                                > > >
                                > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
                                wine.
                                > > >
                                > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
                                checked by
                                > >a
                                > > > laboratory.
                                > > >
                                > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
                                > >water
                                > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
                                > > >
                                > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > _________________________________________________________________
                                > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
                                it's FREE!
                                > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
                                >
                              • polenta222
                                Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his advice not to use any acidic
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 30, 2005
                                  Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and
                                  brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his advice
                                  not to use any acidic (even vinegar) to season and/or clean a copper
                                  still. Surprised because I have been building a scrap book of
                                  distilling advice from this site and others over the past year---and
                                  the section on CLEANING AND SANITIZING is loaded with tips from
                                  longtime distillers advising just the opposite of what Micio advises,
                                  including distilling batches of raw vinegar to clean the inside of
                                  the work and couplings. Would someone else like to weigh in on this?
                                  My new 30-liter still from Italy is solid copper and I am thankful
                                  that I haven't used it yet. I'm going to wait until I hear from you
                                  regulars out there. (Thanks again, Micio, gratzie mille). Dan


                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Hubble" <zymurgybob@h...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Morgan,
                                  >
                                  > This is all great stuff for me, and I thank everyone for their
                                  inputs.
                                  > Thank you epecially , Micio.
                                  >
                                  > I have long been intersted in what I call "rough folk brandies",
                                  like
                                  > grappa, slivovitz, and kirschwasser, but the more I learn about
                                  grappa, the
                                  > more I understand that I'm too ill-informed to make any safely.
                                  >
                                  > After all this discussion, I hope we end up by putting all we learn
                                  into a
                                  > procedure (including Micio's formula) so we can all make safe and
                                  good
                                  > grappa "by the book".
                                  >
                                  > The big surprise for me was the effort to maintain the "oxide
                                  coating" on
                                  > the still's internal copper. When I build a new still, I do
                                  2 "steam runs"
                                  > and one vinegar run to flush out contamination, soldering flux, and
                                  > specifically copper compounds. I'd like to hear this aspect
                                  explored.
                                  >
                                  > Zymurgy Bob
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >From: "morganfield1" <morganfield1@y...>
                                  > >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >Subject: [Distillers] Re: to polenta 222. subject grappa-brandy
                                  > >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:14:04 -0000
                                  > >
                                  > >Dear Miciofelice,
                                  > >
                                  > >Thank you for that wonderful info. I have a soft spot in my heart
                                  for
                                  > >grappa, and my source, an old italian friend, passed away awhile
                                  ago,
                                  > >bless him. My own efforts smell better,taste better, but there not
                                  > >the same. I grew up in an italian niehborhood, all the old italian
                                  > >gentelmen made wine, and gave "Uncle Joe" the pumace. Most of them
                                  > >are gone now. Thank you for bringing back those memories.
                                  > >Tip one, Morgan
                                  > >
                                  > >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                                  > ><miciofelice2003@y...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dear Dan,
                                  > > > I reply on the Forum because I think is good for everybody (at
                                  > >least
                                  > > > I hope) to know more about our national distillate.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yes, 12 trl means 12%. Trl is a short for Tralles, the name of
                                  the
                                  > > > french person that codified the way to measure the content of
                                  > >alcohol
                                  > > > in water.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yes, I add water.Normally the distillate is more than 70 °trl.,
                                  and
                                  > > > so is not good to drink it at that alcohol level.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Somebody use distilled water (made by themselves by own
                                  alambhyc)
                                  > > > and somebody use mineral water with low rate of salts in
                                  > > > (particularly calcium and magnesium).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Distilled water doesn't give any flavour, that is good or not
                                  > > > depending from the point of wiew.
                                  > > > Don't use normal water from the tap: normally has relevant
                                  level of
                                  > > > salts in. This is not good because those salts can became not
                                  > > > soluble if the level of alcohol is low, like if you was wrong
                                  > > > collecting in tails zone.
                                  > > > I mean: if you was not careful and you collect some fusel oils,
                                  > > > adding normal water can give a "milky" colour to your distillate
                                  > >that
                                  > > > became "opaque".
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I use "oligo mineral" water (low contents of salts).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Don't follow your tongue when you add water: there is a formula
                                  to
                                  > > > get the right quantity of water to add to.
                                  > > > Don't follow your tongue because grappa change the taste: what
                                  is
                                  > > > exceptional just distilled can became something of normal after
                                  > >some
                                  > > > months (and viceversa).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > When I did it the first time I though the formula was wrong: the
                                  > > > distillate was like water with a little bit of alcohol. But
                                  after
                                  > > > some weeks the taste changed: so ... trust in formulas!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To prepare your new still you must be careful to avoid to
                                  destroy
                                  > > > the "film" of oxides that protect the metal.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > So, don't use any kind of acid: even vinegar is not good.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Somebody use a weak solution of caustic soda to eliminate
                                  > > > the "grease" of factory: you can do this or can use the normal
                                  dish-
                                  > > > detergent, followed by a rinse of a solution of sodium
                                  bicarbonate.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Then rinse with normal hot water.
                                  > > > Distill a couple of liters of water and let the steam flowing
                                  out
                                  > >the
                                  > > > condenser (I mean: not cool the condenser), and then repeat the
                                  > > > treatment.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Now your alambhyc is ready to work: so you can distil for a
                                  couple
                                  > >of
                                  > > > times some liters of cheap wine. Don't try to drink, even if
                                  smell
                                  > > > good.
                                  > > > If you have the possibility give your distillate to a
                                  laboratory to
                                  > > > check the content of methilic alcohol and copper: the italian
                                  low
                                  > > > allow a maximum of 1% in volume for methilic alcohol and a
                                  maximum
                                  > >of
                                  > > > 5 ppm (part per million)for copper in the diluted distillate
                                  > > > (normally 40 - 42 °trl).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Then ... you can start to do your best to distil yor pomace
                                  wine.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Remember: the first times you distil drink only what was
                                  checked by
                                  > >a
                                  > > > laboratory.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Remember also to clean your alambhyc, after the use, only with
                                  > >water
                                  > > > and nothing else: you must protect your "film" of oxides.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What else? Nothing, I think.
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > _________________________________________________________________
                                  > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
                                  it's FREE!
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                                • miciofelice2003
                                  Hi Dan. Why are you surprised? To clean copper doesn t mean to polish to the metallic surface your still. Is enough to have it cleaned from grease and other
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 30, 2005
                                    Hi Dan.

                                    Why are you surprised? To clean copper doesn't mean to polish to the
                                    metallic surface your still. Is enough to have it "cleaned" from
                                    grease and other stuff.
                                    The oxides film is very resistant, strongly attached to the copper
                                    surface, not dangerous for human health, protective for the metal,....

                                    I was told by a chemist, about this. And that one isn't the only
                                    person that say that. I?m not a chemist, I'm an engineer, that got
                                    the master in Milan many years ago.

                                    Anyway, it's possible to check by yourself: I'm going to put on the
                                    section database the address of all the institutes of copper in the
                                    world: they are full of informations.

                                    So, everybody can give a look.

                                    Ciao

                                    micio felice

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "polenta222" <polenta222@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Morgan, I too am grateful to Micio for his advice on grappa and
                                    > brandy---and, like you, one of the big surprises to me is his
                                    advice
                                    > not to use any acidic (even vinegar) to season and/or clean a
                                    copper
                                    > still. Surprised because I have been building a scrap book of
                                    > distilling advice from this site and others over the past year---
                                    and
                                    > the section on CLEANING AND SANITIZING is loaded with tips from
                                    > longtime distillers advising just the opposite of what Micio
                                    advises,
                                    > including distilling batches of raw vinegar to clean the inside of
                                    > the work and couplings. Would someone else like to weigh in on
                                    this?
                                    > My new 30-liter still from Italy is solid copper and I am thankful
                                    > that I haven't used it yet. I'm going to wait until I hear from
                                    you
                                    > regulars out there. (Thanks again, Micio, gratzie mille). Dan
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • morganfield1
                                    ... batch ... Hi Henry, I should give you the mash bill first, not very complicated, 10 lbs. white, seedless grapes, 10 lbs. white sugar, and enough water to
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 30, 2005
                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Henry Stamp <henrystamp@g...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > interesting post. how much product will you get from this 10 lbs.
                                      batch
                                      > and how does it taste?
                                      >
                                      > -h
                                      >
                                      Hi Henry,
                                      I should give you the mash bill first, not very complicated, 10 lbs.
                                      white, seedless grapes, 10 lbs. white sugar, and enough water to
                                      bring liquid up to the 6 gal. mark on the fermenter. That gave me an
                                      O.G. of 1.07. Final was 1.000. I use Red Star Champaigne yeast for
                                      all my stuff (will try bakers yeast on my next rum!) because of low
                                      off flavor production (and I can pick it up just down the road!).
                                      Having said that, I distill twice (packed column pot still), first
                                      take is from 75% to 40%, second take is from 80% to 65%.
                                      Now, I dilute mine to 50% then bottle. Before diluting, I get about
                                      2.4 ltrs. Most grappa is not diluted when bottled, but I perfer to
                                      serve mine without the complimentary pitcher of ice water.
                                      As for how it tastes, that's a matter of opinion. Tastes like grappa
                                      to me, but alittle smoother, and without that wet cardboard smell,
                                      but wait, without that harsh edge, it's not grappa!!! To each his
                                      own. What do ya want, have your cake and eat it, too!! (I've always
                                      wondered what good cake is if you can't eat it?)
                                      Tip one to the mysteries of life,
                                      Morgan
                                      >
                                    • king pin
                                      I m pleased to see Dan getting some help from the forum and that there are others interested in grappa. I, myself, made the still for this purpose alone and
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Oct 31, 2005
                                        I'm pleased to see Dan getting some help from the forum and that there are others interested in grappa. I, myself, made the still for this purpose alone and was pleased to learn other recepies and try dif things. Some very interesting info from Micio. I myself don't use a seperator from the pot and the pomace, I find with a lower heat, there is no burning of the pomace and the boiler. I do remove as many stems as possible though. I find the comments about cutting the final product interesting also. I'll be having to cut soon, just one more batch of pomace left to do. I may have left too much in regard to tails so I'm a bit concerned about clouding and what to use. In the old days, from what I've learned, they used the tails and late tails to cut the final product. I'm looking forward to hearing of Dans run and final taste test. Its nice to keep tradition. Now......when I have time and a good source for prunes....it'll be time to try my hand at prugna :))

                                        morganfield1 <morganfield1@...> wrote:--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Henry Stamp <henrystamp@g...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > interesting post. how much product will you get from this 10 lbs.
                                        batch
                                        > and how does it taste?
                                        >
                                        > -h
                                        >
                                        Hi Henry,
                                        I should give you the mash bill first, not very complicated, 10 lbs.
                                        white, seedless grapes, 10 lbs. white sugar, and enough water to
                                        bring liquid up to the 6 gal. mark on the fermenter. That gave me an
                                        O.G. of 1.07. Final was 1.000. I use Red Star Champaigne yeast for
                                        all my stuff (will try bakers yeast on my next rum!) because of low
                                        off flavor production (and I can pick it up just down the road!).
                                        Having said that, I distill twice (packed column pot still), first
                                        take is from 75% to 40%, second take is from 80% to 65%.
                                        Now, I dilute mine to 50% then bottle. Before diluting, I get about
                                        2.4 ltrs. Most grappa is not diluted when bottled, but I perfer to
                                        serve mine without the complimentary pitcher of ice water.
                                        As for how it tastes, that's a matter of opinion. Tastes like grappa
                                        to me, but alittle smoother, and without that wet cardboard smell,
                                        but wait, without that harsh edge, it's not grappa!!! To each his
                                        own. What do ya want, have your cake and eat it, too!! (I've always
                                        wondered what good cake is if you can't eat it?)
                                        Tip one to the mysteries of life,
                                        Morgan
                                        >





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                                      • miciofelice2003
                                        Ciao king pin. may I answer to you about tails? If you can smell something like a wet cardboard you already are in tails. You have to smell frequently and to
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Oct 31, 2005
                                          Ciao king pin.

                                          may I answer to you about tails?

                                          If you can smell something like a wet cardboard you already are in
                                          tails.
                                          You have to smell frequently and to low your heat source, when you
                                          are around 92 °C head temperature.

                                          Tails are behind the corner and can suddenly jump into the distillate
                                          you collect, especially if you used a lot the reflux.
                                          You have to taste, too. Is better to taste diluting with the same
                                          volume of low-content-of- salts water.
                                          You can also rub with fingers (like counting money) a little bit of
                                          distillate: if you are in tails you will fill the distillate a little
                                          bit oily.

                                          Old people, and me too, are used to collect a little bit of
                                          distillate into the hands and then to strongly rub these ones and
                                          then to smell the hands. Be sure that if you are in tails you will
                                          smell very clearly the typical wet cardboard.

                                          Stop to collect at the end of 92 °C, when the temperature start to
                                          increase and point up.

                                          Don't regret to lose some drops: you can continue to distil till the
                                          alcohol is about 40 trl. Only you don't have to collect but to add to
                                          the next batch to distil.


                                          If your spirit is " cloudly" if diluted with water, don't worry: try
                                          to freeze (not in the fridge but in the freezer, at -20 °C or less)
                                          your distillate for 48 hours and then filter it with paper filter.
                                          At that temperature it form some "macromolecules" and so it's easy to
                                          lock them.

                                          If this method doesn't work you have only to distil one more time. Of
                                          course you have to dilute till 12 - 15 °trl your distillate.
                                          Next time use low content of salts water and you will reduce the
                                          possibility to have "clouds" into your distillate.

                                          Let me know about your distillate.

                                          ciao

                                          micio felice

                                          P.S. May be my english isn't good or "rich": sorry for it but I
                                          learned only to 50 level of Shenker Method (smile)


                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, king pin
                                          <kingpin_kingpin2001@y...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I'm pleased to see Dan getting some help from the forum and that
                                          there are others interested in grappa. I, myself, made the still for
                                          this purpose alone and was pleased to learn other recepies and try
                                          dif things. Some very interesting info from Micio. I myself don't
                                          use a seperator from the pot and the pomace, I find with a lower
                                          heat, there is no burning of the pomace and the boiler. I do remove
                                          as many stems as possible though. I find the comments about cutting
                                          the final product interesting also. I'll be having to cut soon, just
                                          one more batch of pomace left to do. I may have left too much in
                                          regard to tails so I'm a bit concerned about clouding and what to
                                          use. In the old days, from what I've learned, they used the tails
                                          and late tails to cut the final product. I'm looking forward to
                                          hearing of Dans run and final taste test. Its nice to keep
                                          tradition. Now......when I have time and a good source for
                                          prunes....it'll be time to try my hand at prugna :))
                                          >
                                          > morganfield1 <morganfield1@y...> wrote:--- In
                                          Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Henry Stamp <henrystamp@g...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > interesting post. how much product will you get from this 10
                                          lbs.
                                          > batch
                                          > > and how does it taste?
                                          > >
                                          > > -h
                                          > >
                                          > Hi Henry,
                                          > I should give you the mash bill first, not very complicated, 10
                                          lbs.
                                          > white, seedless grapes, 10 lbs. white sugar, and enough water to
                                          > bring liquid up to the 6 gal. mark on the fermenter. That gave me
                                          an
                                          > O.G. of 1.07. Final was 1.000. I use Red Star Champaigne yeast for
                                          > all my stuff (will try bakers yeast on my next rum!) because of low
                                          > off flavor production (and I can pick it up just down the road!).
                                          > Having said that, I distill twice (packed column pot still), first
                                          > take is from 75% to 40%, second take is from 80% to 65%.
                                          > Now, I dilute mine to 50% then bottle. Before diluting, I get about
                                          > 2.4 ltrs. Most grappa is not diluted when bottled, but I perfer to
                                          > serve mine without the complimentary pitcher of ice water.
                                          > As for how it tastes, that's a matter of opinion. Tastes like
                                          grappa
                                          > to me, but alittle smoother, and without that wet cardboard smell,
                                          > but wait, without that harsh edge, it's not grappa!!! To each his
                                          > own. What do ya want, have your cake and eat it, too!! (I've always
                                          > wondered what good cake is if you can't eat it?)
                                          > Tip one to the mysteries of life,
                                          > Morgan
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                          > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          > Visit your group "Distillers" on the web.
                                          >
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                                          >
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                                          Service.
                                          >
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