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Re: Bicarbonate and esters? proper terminology

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  • Michael
    Regarding the proper use of terms... You are correct, it is a hydrolysis reaction in that you are adding a water molecule to an ester bond to create etoh and
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 1, 2005
      Regarding the proper use of terms... You are correct, it is a
      hydrolysis reaction in that you are adding a water molecule to an
      ester bond to create etoh and co2. I am less certain about the use of
      the term "saponification" as a general descriptor of hydrolysis in an
      alkaline pH. It has been decades since I took O-chem, but I thought
      saponification involved the formation of a metallic salt from a
      esterified fatty acid? i.e. making sodium stearate from sodium
      hydroxide and a triglyceride fat. Refresh my memory. In the clearing
      of ethyl acetate we are not forming a metallic salt, just performing
      an alkaline hydrolysis.
      Regarding the use of the term "stripping"... I plead carlessness. I
      should more accurately have used the term "first distillation". I have
      a commercially available column still available from Brewhause.com.
      This still only operates at one setting. It does not have adjustable
      reflux. It is efficient in that I can clear 9 gallons of 18-20%(I use
      black label turbo yeast with 18 pounds of sugar in 10 gallons of
      water) sugar mash in about 3 1/2 hours with a gas burner. On the first
      pass, I run the still up till it reaches 97 degrees C at the top of
      the column. My usual yield is about 6 quarts of high abv product.
      After averaging,it is about 90%. I generally make three batches and
      collect all I can get. I call this stripping since I do not watch the
      cuts on the first distillation, but run strictly by temperature. I do
      watch the cuts carefully on the second distillation which combines the
      product of the first three stripping runs. On this second distillation
      I watch the cuts and maximize for the best neutral spirit. The product
      of the second run is 96% all the way through.



      -- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x> wrote:
      > Ah, so we don't have to worry about aeration and we can just chuck,
      > stir and go with the bicarb?
      >
      > Good point re the 95% "strip"!!
      >
      > Thanks for your knowledgeable contributions, Rob.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Lindsay.
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
      wrote:
      > > Hi Michael,
      > > Firstly, you're not oxidising, you're hydrolysing
      > > (saponifying), so you don't need air (although the
      > > jury is still out on other effects of aeration).
      > > I co with low abv, because that's the way it happens!
      > > I strip to ca 98C, dilute back to 20-25 litres (which
      > > I think helps the column stability) add bicarb and
      > > fire up the still. By the time I'm collecting, the
      > > jobs done.
      > > If you strip to 95% you haven't stripped!
      > > Cheers,
      > > Rob.
      > >
      > > --- Michael <hexenwolfe@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > I may have missed this point, but when using
      > > > bicarbonate and aeration
      > > > to oxidize ethyl acetate, between the stripping and
      > > > final
      > > > distillation, is it better to work with 95% or to
      > > > dilute it to 50%?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ____________________________________________________
      > > Yahoo! Sports
      > > Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
      > > http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
    • Robert Thomas
      ... It s been a decade since I taught PhD students (G) but saponification is the conversion of high molecular weight esters into alcohols and hight MW acid
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 1, 2005
        Hi Michael:

        --- Michael <hexenwolfe@...> wrote:

        > Regarding the proper use of terms... You are
        > correct, it is a
        > hydrolysis reaction in that you are adding a water
        > molecule to an
        > ester bond to create etoh and co2. I am less certain
        > about the use of
        > the term "saponification" as a general descriptor of
        > hydrolysis in an
        > alkaline pH. It has been decades since I took
        > O-chem, but I thought
        > saponification involved the formation of a metallic
        > salt from a
        > esterified fatty acid? i.e. making sodium stearate
        > from sodium
        > hydroxide and a triglyceride fat. Refresh my memory.

        It's been a decade since I taught PhD students (G) but
        saponification is the conversion of high molecular
        weight esters into alcohols and hight MW acid SALTS.
        Without lye we wouldn't have soap. While the process
        could be carried out without alkali it would take
        forever.


        > In the clearing
        > of ethyl acetate we are not forming a metallic salt,
        > just performing
        > an alkaline hydrolysis.
        Alc-Acid + sod- carb + H2O = alcOH + sod-Acid +CO2
        It doesn't balance, but you get the idea. There is
        definately an acid salt.

        > Regarding the use of the term "stripping"... I
        > plead carlessness. I
        > should more accurately have used the term "first
        > distillation". I have
        > a commercially available column still available from
        > Brewhause.com.
        > This still only operates at one setting. It does not
        > have adjustable
        > reflux. It is efficient in that I can clear 9
        > gallons of 18-20%(I use
        > black label turbo yeast with 18 pounds of sugar in
        > 10 gallons of
        > water) sugar mash in about 3 1/2 hours with a gas

        gas? then it's adjustable.

        > burner. On the first
        > pass, I run the still up till it reaches 97 degrees
        > C at the top of
        > the column. My usual yield is about 6 quarts of high
        > abv product.
        > After averaging,it is about 90%. I generally make
        > three batches and
        > collect all I can get. I call this stripping since I
        > do not watch the
        > cuts on the first distillation, but run strictly by
        > temperature. I do
        > watch the cuts carefully on the second distillation
        > which combines the
        > product of the first three stripping runs. On this
        > second distillation
        > I watch the cuts and maximize for the best neutral
        > spirit. The product
        > of the second run is 96% all the way through.

        It all sounds great! go with it!
        Cheers
        Rob.



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      • Harry
        ... wrote: ... Hi Rob, Speaking of proper terminology, I thought I d send you this off- list. Your use of definately vs definitely . 1.
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 1, 2005
          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
          wrote:
          <snip>

          > Alc-Acid + sod- carb + H2O = alcOH + sod-Acid +CO2
          > It doesn't balance, but you get the idea. There is
          > definately an acid salt.
          <snip>



          Hi Rob,
          Speaking of proper terminology, I thought I'd send you this off-
          list. Your use of 'definately' vs 'definitely'.


          1. Definite: (precise; explicit and clearly defined) "I want a
          definite answer"; "a definite statement of the terms of the
          will"; "a definite amount"; "definite restrictions on the sale of
          alcohol"; "the wedding date is now definite"; "a definite drop in
          attendance"

          2. Definite: (known for certain) "it is definite that they have won"


          DEFINATE (Def·i·nate) (def¢[ibreve]-n[amacr]t): trademark for a
          preparation of docusate sodium.

          Docusate Sodium [USP]: an anionic surfactant used as a stool
          softener, administered orally or rectally.


          *Not being pedantic, just thought you'd get a giggle outta that
          one. :-)

          Slainte!
          regards Harry
        • Harry
          OOPS!!! I guess off-list has a different meaning to Yahoo servers. Sorry for any embarassment. Slainte! regards Harry
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 1, 2005
            OOPS!!! I guess off-list has a different meaning to Yahoo servers.
            Sorry for any embarassment.


            Slainte!
            regards Harry
          • Robert Thomas
            Harry, I d like to talk butt I m in a hurry. I m definately right now. !!! Rob. ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 1, 2005
              Harry,
              I'd like to talk butt I'm in a hurry.
              I'm definately right now.
              !!!
              Rob.


              --- Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

              > OOPS!!! I guess off-list has a different meaning to
              > Yahoo servers.
              > Sorry for any embarassment.
              >
              >
              > Slainte!
              > regards Harry
              >
              >
              >


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            • Lindsay Williams
              Is that why drinking too much can give you the runs?? I will definitely try to keep this stuff outa my product. Cheers, Lindsay.
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 1, 2005
                Is that why drinking too much can give you the runs??

                I will definitely try to keep this stuff outa my product.

                Cheers,
                Lindsay.
                >
                > DEFINATE (Def·i·nate) (def¢[ibreve]-n[amacr]t): trademark for a
                > preparation of docusate sodium.
                >
                > Docusate Sodium [USP]: an anionic surfactant used as a stool
                > softener, administered orally or rectally.
                >
                >
                > *Not being pedantic, just thought you'd get a giggle outta that
                > one. :-)
                >
                > Slainte!
                > regards Harry
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