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Re: condenser

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  • abbababbaccc
    Kim, Yes, 1.5 pipe will have more area and cooling effect. Since you have all the stuff why don t you just build one and see how it works. If 1.5 is too much
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 1, 2005
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      Kim,

      Yes, 1.5" pipe will have more area and cooling effect. Since you have
      all the stuff why don't you just build one and see how it works. If
      1.5" is too much you can just get reducer couplings for 1" that go
      inside the 1.5" couplings and try with 1" pipe. Theory is nice but
      it's all up to trying things in practise.

      Since you use propane it could actually be beneficial to build your
      condenser for 1-1.2kW for 2" pipe which is close to perfect power for
      that pipe size. That would provide you a method of running at proper
      power. If steam is pouring out of your ventilation hole it's a good
      sign to turn down the power. You can see it quite well by looking
      against a light. I've tried that method with my air cooled condensers
      and power regulator and it seems to work OK.

      - Riku

      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kiss my ass" <kiss_my_ass@c...>
      wrote:
      > Riku
      >
      > point well taken on 1 in pipe and standard fittings..... it
      certainly would
      > be a no machine work or drilling construction using standard
      parts....
      >
      > I do think that the 1 1/2 in pipe will close down the volumn but it
      will be
      > much more surface area and the vapor will be forced closer to the
      condensing
      > surface.....I have a big pump for high coolant volume... and
      already have
      > the 2 in to 1 1/2 reducers....I can scrounge all the parts from
      other "not
      > so good experiments" I have on hand.....
      >
      > I use propane for heat so I have no idea of the actual power output
      but I
      > turn the flame down considerably after reaching distilling
      temperature.....
      > I think it is probably 2kw or less....{just guessing}
      >
      >
      >
      > Kim
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
      > To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:07 AM
      > Subject: [Distillers] Re: condenser
      >
      > > That's exactly what I was talking about. I'd try 1" pipe inside to
      > > give vapors more room to turn around and cool. Also it would be
      > > easier to use reducers to 1/2" at the end of the 1" pipe and
      attach
      > > hoses directly to those. This means that everything can be put
      > > together using standard easy to solder plumbing components.
      > >
      > > You can use condenser size calculator at homedistiller.org to
      > > estimate the length of the condenser + required waterflow. I did
      some
      > > math and this type of setup will work at least up to 2kW if enough
      > > waterflow is provided.
      > >
      > > - Riku
      > >
      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kiss_my_ass@c...> wrote:
      > >> I have been lurking and watching the discussion on
      condensers.... I
      > >> have come up with an example that I am in the process of
      > > building....
      > >> I have uploaded a diagram in the photos section in the
      > > album "condenser"
      > >>
      > >> I call it the "crossflow inverted liebig condenser"
      > >>
      > >> I have tried to make a crossflow condenser with construction and
      > >> materials that might not be as intimidating to the home distiller
      > >> using common tools.
      > >>
      > >> I am not sure how long to make it.... I am guessing 18 to 20
      inches
      > >> will give the proper amount of internal surface area..... and the
      > >> necessary cooling capacity with a large pump and water flow....
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> comments please
      > >>
      > >> Kim
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
      > > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
    • Harry
      ... wrote: If steam is pouring out of your ventilation hole it s a good ... condensers ... A child s balloon placed over the vent
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 1, 2005
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
        <abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
        <snip>
        If steam is pouring out of your ventilation hole it's a good
        > sign to turn down the power. You can see it quite well by looking
        > against a light. I've tried that method with my air cooled
        condensers
        > and power regulator and it seems to work OK.
        >
        > - Riku



        A child's balloon placed over the vent tube is a good indicator. It
        springs up the moment excess vapour comes out the vent. Also
        prevents getting a room full of ethanol that might go BANG around
        propane. Of course you will get some balloon spring as you reach
        distilling temperature. That's the air being purged from the system
        by the rising vapours. All good column designs should have no air
        in them during operation, just ethanol & water vapour. This
        eliminates the potential for flash fires & explosions. If a spark is
        generated somehow by add-on equipment, and finds ethanol and AIR
        mixture, you've got serious problems, RAPIDLY.


        Slainte!
        regards Harry
      • abbababbaccc
        You are right again Harry. I ve played too much with electric stuff and forgotten the realities of open flame. A more civilized way could be to use a long
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 1, 2005
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          You are right again Harry. I've played too much with electric stuff
          and forgotten the realities of open flame. A more "civilized" way
          could be to use a long ventilation pipe made of copper that has a
          vaporlock in it. If it starts bubling you need to reduce the power
          quickly. Play it safe.

          - Riku

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
          > <abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
          > <snip>
          > If steam is pouring out of your ventilation hole it's a good
          > > sign to turn down the power. You can see it quite well by looking
          > > against a light. I've tried that method with my air cooled
          > condensers
          > > and power regulator and it seems to work OK.
          > >
          > > - Riku
          >
          >
          >
          > A child's balloon placed over the vent tube is a good indicator.
          It
          > springs up the moment excess vapour comes out the vent. Also
          > prevents getting a room full of ethanol that might go BANG around
          > propane. Of course you will get some balloon spring as you reach
          > distilling temperature. That's the air being purged from the
          system
          > by the rising vapours. All good column designs should have no air
          > in them during operation, just ethanol & water vapour. This
          > eliminates the potential for flash fires & explosions. If a spark
          is
          > generated somehow by add-on equipment, and finds ethanol and AIR
          > mixture, you've got serious problems, RAPIDLY.
          >
          >
          > Slainte!
          > regards Harry
        • kiss my ass
          Riku Your are right ..... I will try it and see..... all the theory in the world won t replace actual hard testing..... of course theory will get you in the
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 1, 2005
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            Riku

            Your are right ..... I will try it and see..... all the theory in the world
            won't replace actual hard testing..... of course theory will get you in the
            ball park....

            if it doesn't work.... well I'll switch to the 1 in pipe.....

            Kim


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
            To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:29 PM
            Subject: [Distillers] Re: condenser


            > Kim,
            >
            > Yes, 1.5" pipe will have more area and cooling effect. Since you have
            > all the stuff why don't you just build one and see how it works. If
            > 1.5" is too much you can just get reducer couplings for 1" that go
            > inside the 1.5" couplings and try with 1" pipe. Theory is nice but
            > it's all up to trying things in practise.
            >
            > Since you use propane it could actually be beneficial to build your
            > condenser for 1-1.2kW for 2" pipe which is close to perfect power for
            > that pipe size. That would provide you a method of running at proper
            > power. If steam is pouring out of your ventilation hole it's a good
            > sign to turn down the power. You can see it quite well by looking
            > against a light. I've tried that method with my air cooled condensers
            > and power regulator and it seems to work OK.
            >
            > - Riku
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kiss my ass" <kiss_my_ass@c...>
            > wrote:
            >> Riku
            >>
            >> point well taken on 1 in pipe and standard fittings..... it
            > certainly would
            >> be a no machine work or drilling construction using standard
            > parts....
            >>
            >> I do think that the 1 1/2 in pipe will close down the volumn but it
            > will be
            >> much more surface area and the vapor will be forced closer to the
            > condensing
            >> surface.....I have a big pump for high coolant volume... and
            > already have
            >> the 2 in to 1 1/2 reducers....I can scrounge all the parts from
            > other "not
            >> so good experiments" I have on hand.....
            >>
            >> I use propane for heat so I have no idea of the actual power output
            > but I
            >> turn the flame down considerably after reaching distilling
            > temperature.....
            >> I think it is probably 2kw or less....{just guessing}
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Kim
            >>
            >>
            >> ----- Original Message -----
            >> From: "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
            >> To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            >> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:07 AM
            >> Subject: [Distillers] Re: condenser
            >>
            >> > That's exactly what I was talking about. I'd try 1" pipe inside to
            >> > give vapors more room to turn around and cool. Also it would be
            >> > easier to use reducers to 1/2" at the end of the 1" pipe and
            > attach
            >> > hoses directly to those. This means that everything can be put
            >> > together using standard easy to solder plumbing components.
            >> >
            >> > You can use condenser size calculator at homedistiller.org to
            >> > estimate the length of the condenser + required waterflow. I did
            > some
            >> > math and this type of setup will work at least up to 2kW if enough
            >> > waterflow is provided.
            >> >
            >> > - Riku
            >> >
            >> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kiss_my_ass@c...> wrote:
            >> >> I have been lurking and watching the discussion on
            > condensers.... I
            >> >> have come up with an example that I am in the process of
            >> > building....
            >> >> I have uploaded a diagram in the photos section in the
            >> > album "condenser"
            >> >>
            >> >> I call it the "crossflow inverted liebig condenser"
            >> >>
            >> >> I have tried to make a crossflow condenser with construction and
            >> >> materials that might not be as intimidating to the home distiller
            >> >> using common tools.
            >> >>
            >> >> I am not sure how long to make it.... I am guessing 18 to 20
            > inches
            >> >> will give the proper amount of internal surface area..... and the
            >> >> necessary cooling capacity with a large pump and water flow....
            >> >>
            >> >>
            >> >> comments please
            >> >>
            >> >> Kim
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
            >> > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
            >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
            > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Harry
            ... the world ... you in the ... It s an interesting concept, Kim. Let us know the results. As to working out the size, just calculate the hot/cold transfer
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 1, 2005
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              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kiss my ass" <kiss_my_ass@c...>
              wrote:
              > Riku
              >
              > Your are right ..... I will try it and see..... all the theory in
              the world
              > won't replace actual hard testing..... of course theory will get
              you in the
              > ball park....
              >
              > if it doesn't work.... well I'll switch to the 1 in pipe.....
              >
              > Kim



              It's an interesting concept, Kim. Let us know the results. As to
              working out the size, just calculate the hot/cold transfer area.
              IOW the outer surface area of the inside water pipe.

              The crossflow has 19 pipes @ 140mm x 6.5mm Ø which is (in cm)...

              Diameter x Pi x length x num.pipes
              .65 x 3.14159 x 14 x 19 --> 543 sq.cm


              This easily handles 1800w under test, and I'm sure it could do more
              if the need arises. It's just a matter of increasing the coolant
              flow. So to get something in that known range using a single
              central pipe, just work backwards with the equation and plug in
              figures...

              543 = Diam x Pi x Length
              543 = 3.8 x 3.14159 x ?
              543 / (3.8 x 3.14159) --> 45.5 cm length @ 3.8 cm diameter
              or 18" x 1.5" pipe
              For 1.25" pipe it's...
              543 / (3.2 x 3.14159) --> 54 cm length @ 3.2 cm diameter
              or 21.25" x 1.25" pipe

              You will also get a very small amount of cooling from the shell side
              to atmosphere transfer, but in condensers this small it's not worth
              calculating.


              Slainte!
              regards Harry
            • foutzdj
              Hi, I was just looking at some of the photos of stills in the photos section and I noticed a lot of people had caps on the top of the condenser casing. I am
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 14, 2005
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                Hi, I was just looking at some of the photos of stills in the photos
                section and I noticed a lot of people had caps on the top of the
                condenser casing. I am preparing my design and I had thought that that
                part was supposed to be open to the atmosphere. Can anyone clear this
                up for me?
              • Mike Nixon
                foutzdj wrote: Subject: [Distillers] condenser Hi, I was just looking at some of the photos of stills in the photos section and I noticed a lot of people had
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 14, 2005
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                  foutzdj wrote:
                  Subject: [Distillers] condenser

                  Hi, I was just looking at some of the photos of stills in the photos
                  section and I noticed a lot of people had caps on the top of the
                  condenser casing. I am preparing my design and I had thought that that
                  part was supposed to be open to the atmosphere. Can anyone clear this
                  up for me?
                  ===============
                  Yup. They should all have small vent holes in those caps, but that is not
                  always obvious from pics taken from the side. A cap like that is useful for
                  supporting the top condenser.

                  All the best,
                  Mike N
                • Lindsay Williams
                  Your supposition is correct but I am sure you will find that they just sit loosely and/or have holes in the top. They are not necessary - an open top is fine.
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 15, 2005
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                    Your supposition is correct but I am sure you will find that they just
                    sit loosely and/or have holes in the top. They are not necessary - an
                    open top is fine. Mine is open but I have stuffed a SS scrubber down
                    into the top of my coil.

                    Cheers,
                    Lindsay.

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "foutzdj" <foutzdj@y...> wrote:
                    > Hi, I was just looking at some of the photos of stills in the photos
                    > section and I noticed a lot of people had caps on the top of the
                    > condenser casing. I am preparing my design and I had thought that that
                    > part was supposed to be open to the atmosphere. Can anyone clear this
                    > up for me?
                  • Alex _{*L*}_ (a.k.a. BOKAKOB)
                    There is ALWAYS an opening in the cups or at the coil tubing entrance points. The opening should not be less than 1/4 diameter. With a properly sized
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 22, 2005
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                      There is ALWAYS an opening in the cups or at the coil tubing entrance points. The opening should not be less than 1/4'' diameter. With a properly sized condenser coil there is no need for anything with the coil perfectly open to the atmosphere.


                      ---------------------------------
                      Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Robert Thomas
                      Alex, why 1/4 minimum? Not that it s relevant to me, but reasons give understanding. I should have thought any air gap was enough. cheers, Rob. ...
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 22, 2005
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                        Alex,
                        why 1/4" minimum? Not that it's relevant to me, but
                        reasons give understanding. I should have thought any
                        air gap was enough.
                        cheers,
                        Rob.


                        --- "Alex _{*L*}_ (a.k.a. BOKAKOB)"
                        <bokakob@...> wrote:

                        > There is ALWAYS an opening in the cups or at the
                        > coil tubing entrance points. The opening should not
                        > be less than 1/4'' diameter. With a properly sized
                        > condenser coil there is no need for anything with
                        > the coil perfectly open to the atmosphere.
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >


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                      • bokakob
                        I use 1/4 drill bit for all tubing in my still columns. This is a logical extension to use the same drill bit avoiding any changes and cut time on labor. In
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 22, 2005
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                          I use 1/4" drill bit for all tubing in my still columns. This is a
                          logical extension to use the same drill bit avoiding any changes and
                          cut time on labor. In theory you are correct, even a slight gap is
                          enough.


                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > Alex, why 1/4" minimum? Not that it's relevant to me, but
                          > reasons give understanding. I should have thought any
                          > air gap was enough.
                          > cheers,
                          > Rob.
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