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Re: Crossflow Plans for personal use

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  • Harry
    ... build ... easily ... Hi Riku, I don t know if you realise it, but you ve just hit on the reason why I decided to put the vapour OUTSIDE the cooling tubes.
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
      wrote:
      > I seem to be in a creative mood, how about making an inverted liebig
      > version of that crossflow condenser? It should be quite easy to
      build
      > with reglular plumbing components and when properly sized could
      easily
      > take 1kW or a bit more.
      >
      > - Riku



      Hi Riku,
      I don't know if you realise it, but you've just hit on the reason why
      I decided to put the vapour OUTSIDE the cooling tubes. Think about
      this...1ml of liquid produces some 45ml of vapour (roughly).
      Therefore it's logical to let the vapour expand into a large capacity
      cylinder, and the coolant to be in the smaller capacity side of the
      shell/tube configuration, no? Crossflows, liebigs, multipass etc can
      all be designed on this principle. The chemical engineers here will
      confirm this concept. I don't remember the 'rule-of-thumb' but there
      is a way of working out which fluid should occupy the shell-side and
      which should occupy the tube-side of a heat exchanger. If I find it
      among all my notes (25gig) I'll post it.


      Slainte!
      regards Harry
    • abbababbaccc
      Well, that s the reason I said INVERTED Liebig, ie. just a straight tube where water flows and a vapor jacket around it. With high capacity pump you could make
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
        Well, that's the reason I said INVERTED Liebig, ie. just a straight
        tube where water flows and a vapor jacket around it. With high
        capacity pump you could make it quite short and the construction
        would be very easy with standard plumbing components. Finding a
        proper sizing is naturally another matter. The reason I thought about
        this is that a large part of distillers here use 2" columns and
        heating elements in the neighborhood of 1kW.

        As an example a 50cm piece of 15mm pipe and water flow of
        180liters/hour should cool off 1 kW. Increasing the pipe size to 22mm
        allows using 35cm long condenser for that power. This is theory of
        course. In practise you'd have to find proper size for the vapor
        jacket and make sure the vapor actually flows around the condenser
        pipe.

        - Riku

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
        <abbababbaccc@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > I seem to be in a creative mood, how about making an inverted
        liebig
        > > version of that crossflow condenser? It should be quite easy to
        > build
        > > with reglular plumbing components and when properly sized could
        > easily
        > > take 1kW or a bit more.
        > >
        > > - Riku
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Riku,
        > I don't know if you realise it, but you've just hit on the reason
        why
        > I decided to put the vapour OUTSIDE the cooling tubes. Think about
        > this...1ml of liquid produces some 45ml of vapour (roughly).
        > Therefore it's logical to let the vapour expand into a large
        capacity
        > cylinder, and the coolant to be in the smaller capacity side of the
        > shell/tube configuration, no? Crossflows, liebigs, multipass etc
        can
        > all be designed on this principle. The chemical engineers here
        will
        > confirm this concept. I don't remember the 'rule-of-thumb' but
        there
        > is a way of working out which fluid should occupy the shell-side
        and
        > which should occupy the tube-side of a heat exchanger. If I find
        it
        > among all my notes (25gig) I'll post it.
        >
        >
        > Slainte!
        > regards Harry
      • Harry
        ... straight ... about ... 22mm ... Your theory is broadly correct. However, the details are a lot more intricate. You need to consider laminar flow (among
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
          <abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
          > Well, that's the reason I said INVERTED Liebig, ie. just a
          straight
          > tube where water flows and a vapor jacket around it. With high
          > capacity pump you could make it quite short and the construction
          > would be very easy with standard plumbing components. Finding a
          > proper sizing is naturally another matter. The reason I thought
          about
          > this is that a large part of distillers here use 2" columns and
          > heating elements in the neighborhood of 1kW.
          >
          > As an example a 50cm piece of 15mm pipe and water flow of
          > 180liters/hour should cool off 1 kW. Increasing the pipe size to
          22mm
          > allows using 35cm long condenser for that power. This is theory of
          > course. In practise you'd have to find proper size for the vapor
          > jacket and make sure the vapor actually flows around the condenser
          > pipe.
          >
          > - Riku



          Your theory is broadly correct. However, the details are a lot more
          intricate. You need to consider laminar flow (among other things),
          meaning that the fluid (liquid and gas) flow nearest the transfer
          wall moves slower than the fluid in the centre of the vapour or
          liquid medium, due to friction. Therefore the transfer of heat
          becomes other than linear. There are equations for working this
          out, but once again, you need to consult a chemical engineer to get
          the figures. I have the equations, but it's outside my field of
          expertise. Perhaps Mike Nixon or Tony Ackland can help.

          Aside from that, the condenser would need to have turbulence
          introduced into the vapour, via baffles, as this increases the
          contact and changes the angle of attack between the vapour, the heat
          transfer medium (the tube walls) and the coolant.

          One thing in the favour of the hobbyist is that the designs we build
          are extremely small in the broad scheme of things, therefore if we
          make a small error in calculations, it's not critical (usually). A
          small increase in coolant flow will usually overcome most design
          errors.

          Slainte!
          regards Harry
        • stevolate
          Hi Harry Great job Just a couple of questions. How dose the liquid cross the dam wall to the other side, would it not build up on the other side. And possibly
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
            Hi Harry
            Great job
            Just a couple of questions.
            How dose the liquid cross the dam wall to the other side, would it not
            build up on the other side. And possibly fall back down the column?
            Would a large amount of condensate fall back down the column from the
            tubes above the column?

            I will have a go at building a Howard F Jackson crossflow condenser
            head when I get time.

            Thanks Harry fantastic setup.

            Stevo
          • Cary Rhodes
            I know the Q was to Harry, but I will interject a little here. Just because I have built one of Harry devices and use it regularly. I guess I, like ya ll, am
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
              I know the Q was to Harry, but I will interject a little here.


              Just because I have built one of Harry devices and use it regularly.

              I guess I, like ya'll, am accumulating a shelf full of items that I no
              longer use. That condensor over there is the previous model. "Does it
              work"? Yep, it works but this one works better.

              The crossflow is a good item. small, compact, efficient, low cooling
              water usage.

              Stevo, the insert that slides up inside the "T" needs to be sqeezed
              down to create a 'neck'. the condensate actually flows around the
              necked insert to reach the outlet port.

              to limit takeoff just throttle the outlet valve. the product will
              accumulate and overflow the 'dam' back into the column.

              I did have some difficulty stopping the leaks around the diaphram that
              separates the cooling water from the vapor chamber. I actually brazed
              the copper tubes to the diaphram plate.

              silver soldered the plate to the housing and soft soldered the caps
              onto the tee.

              this keeps from melting your previous work.

              cary r







              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stevolate" <stevolate@y...> wrote:
              > Hi Harry
              > Great job
              > Just a couple of questions.
              > How dose the liquid cross the dam wall to the other side, would it not
              > build up on the other side. And possibly fall back down the column?
              > Would a large amount of condensate fall back down the column from the
              > tubes above the column?
              >
              > I will have a go at building a Howard F Jackson crossflow condenser
              > head when I get time.
              >
              > Thanks Harry fantastic setup.
              >
              > Stevo
            • Dean Thomas
              Hi Harry, Riku, etc. Refrigeration heat transfer coils (condenser and evaporator) use Rifle bore tubing the idea is that as the refrigerant passes through the
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
                Hi Harry, Riku, etc.

                Refrigeration heat transfer coils (condenser and evaporator) use Rifle
                bore tubing the idea is that as the refrigerant passes through the
                rifle boring inside the tube not only is turbulence created but in the
                case of liquid/vapour phase change the liquid is thrown to the outside
                (against the walls) giving better heat transfer.

                Although our (Distillers) rate of flow isn't as fast as that inside a
                refrigerant system maybe this type of tubing would be of benefit when
                designing your next condenser.

                Dean.


                >Your theory is broadly correct. However, the details are a lot more
                >intricate. You need to consider laminar flow (among other things),
                >meaning that the fluid (liquid and gas) flow nearest the transfer
                >wall moves slower than the fluid in the centre of the vapour or
                >liquid medium, due to friction. Therefore the transfer of heat
                >becomes other than linear. There are equations for working this
                >out, but once again, you need to consult a chemical engineer to get
                >the figures. I have the equations, but it's outside my field of
                >expertise. Perhaps Mike Nixon or Tony Ackland can help.
                >
                >Aside from that, the condenser would need to have turbulence
                >introduced into the vapour, via baffles, as this increases the
                >contact and changes the angle of attack between the vapour, the heat
                >transfer medium (the tube walls) and the coolant.
                >
                >One thing in the favour of the hobbyist is that the designs we build
                >are extremely small in the broad scheme of things, therefore if we
                >make a small error in calculations, it's not critical (usually). A
                >small increase in coolant flow will usually overcome most design
                >errors.
                >
                >Slainte!
                >regards Harry
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • markapp
                Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool, never realy dripping.
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                  Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                  the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool, never
                  realy dripping. Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                  that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition. Also
                  kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                  reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be missing
                  something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                  the walls Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a
                  possible refinement? Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                  explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                  simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks
                • abbababbaccc
                  I have experimented a VM system with centered and non centered reflux. The setup was: Reflux coil directly above the packing, straight column so some reflux
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                    I have experimented a VM system with centered and non centered reflux.
                    The setup was:

                    Reflux coil directly above the packing, straight column so some reflux
                    will go down the column walls

                    The same as above but this time I made a collar inbetween the coil and
                    the packing to guide all reflux into middle of packing

                    The result was 30% less heads with latter setup. This means that the
                    separation was increased when reflux was guided into middle of the
                    packing.

                    - Riku

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "markapp" <markapp@y...> wrote:
                    > Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                    > the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool,
                    never
                    > realy dripping. Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                    > that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition. Also
                    > kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                    > reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be missing
                    > something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                    > the walls Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a
                    > possible refinement? Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                    > explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                    > simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks
                  • Harry
                    Hi Mark, I ll try to tackle this a step at a time... ... never ... ............Theory says there should always be a certain amount of reflux from dripping over
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                      Hi Mark,
                      I'll try to tackle this a step at a time...


                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "markapp" <markapp@y...> wrote:
                      > Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                      > the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool,
                      never
                      > realy dripping.


                      ............Theory says there should always be a certain amount of
                      reflux from dripping over the centre 45mm column top (the dam wall).
                      Practice shows that the drops of condensate tend to go along the tubes
                      to either end and fall into the sump. This is helped along by the
                      rising vapour, which is actually drawn into the condenser by the small
                      vacuum condition set up by the collapse of vapour to liquid (yes I
                      know it's open to atmosphere via the vent, but you still get partial
                      vacuum).
                      If you had the skill, money and time to make the condenser entirely
                      out of glass, you'd see what I'm talking about.


                      Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                      > that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition.

                      .............Because of the scenario above, very little reflux is via
                      dripping. It's safe to assume all reflux is via dam wall overflow.

                      Also
                      > kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                      > reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be
                      missing
                      > something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                      > the walls



                      ............Yes it does, but you still get minor tracking down the
                      wall of the column. This is not relevant in an insulated column, as
                      the temperature across an insulated column is the same at a give
                      height. Therefore it doesn't matter if the descending liquid is in
                      the centre or at the side. The temperature at that level is the same
                      for centre and edge, and the descending liquid will still reboil and
                      give up vapour as it reaches the correct temperature level. The
                      vapour thus given off will expand to occupy some 45 times the volume
                      of the parent liquid, thereby forcing itself back into the packing
                      thoroughly.

                      In an uninsulated column, all bets are off.



                      Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a possible
                      refinement?


                      ....................It could. So could doing away altogether with the
                      sump takeoff point and installing standard dual angled plates in the
                      column to capture all condensate. This could then be split into
                      reflux and product with a single valve. Alex has used this setup in
                      some of his columns.


                      > Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                      > explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                      > simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks


                      If you don't ask questions, you'll never know. :-))



                      Slainte!
                      regards Harry
                    • Alex _{*L*}_ (a.k.a. BOKAKOB)
                      There will be no dripping in any condenser if it is at an angle. Distillate will happily slide down along the cooling tubes toward the pool. Dripping will
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                        There will be no dripping in any condenser if it is at an angle. Distillate will happily slide down along the cooling tubes toward the pool.

                        Dripping will occur only on condition when surface tension is less than the gravity pull. In other words -- if you have almost any angle (15* and up) then all your distillate will cling to the cooling tubes.

                        To prevent it some drip points should be regularly made along the cooling tubes. Otherwise you need horizontal arrangement of the cooling tubes.

                        That is what I think! ;-)

                        markapp <markapp@...> wrote:
                        Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                        the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool, never
                        realy dripping. Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                        that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition. Also
                        kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                        reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be missing
                        something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                        the walls Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a
                        possible refinement? Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                        explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                        simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks




                        Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                        FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org



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                        Alex_{*L*}_(a.k.a. BOKAKOB)
                        http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bokakob

























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                      • Harry
                        ... Distillate will happily slide down along the cooling tubes toward the pool. ... than the gravity pull. In other words -- if you have almost any angle (15*
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex _{*L*}_ \(a.k.a. BOKAKOB\)"
                          <bokakob@y...> wrote:
                          > There will be no dripping in any condenser if it is at an angle.
                          Distillate will happily slide down along the cooling tubes toward
                          the pool.

                          .........True, but this condenser is level.


                          >
                          > Dripping will occur only on condition when surface tension is less
                          than the gravity pull. In other words -- if you have almost any
                          angle (15* and up) then all your distillate will cling to the
                          cooling tubes.




                          ..............Partially true. Moreso for the first part of your
                          statement. Liquid tends to cling to the surface where it condensed,
                          or first landed. Think about raindrops on an old-fashioned clothes
                          line wire. But don't forget about the pressure of rising vapour.



                          >
                          > To prevent it some drip points should be regularly made along the
                          cooling tubes. Otherwise you need horizontal arrangement of the
                          cooling tubes.


                          ............Why would you want to prevent it? It's practical for
                          the condensate to work its way over the sump area. Don't forget it
                          is helped along by the pressure of rising vapour. If you slowed the
                          coolant feed to a trickle, then rising vapour would cause pressure
                          shear in the direction of the condenser endplates. We need to
                          strike a happy balance between coolant speed and condensate movement.



                          >
                          > That is what I think! ;-)

                          .............Good points, Alex. Practical thought is what makes
                          this hobby so fascinating, from many angles.


                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
                        • Lindsay Williams
                          Interesting to see some empirical evidence. I might have another go at my washer to make doubly sure it drips into the centre (a glass column would be
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                            Interesting to see some empirical evidence. I might have another go at
                            my 'washer' to make doubly sure it drips into the centre (a glass
                            column would be good!). Thanks for the work and sharing it with us.

                            Cheers,
                            Lindsay.

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > I have experimented a VM system with centered and non centered reflux.
                            > The setup was:
                            >
                            > Reflux coil directly above the packing, straight column so some reflux
                            > will go down the column walls
                            >
                            > The same as above but this time I made a collar inbetween the coil and
                            > the packing to guide all reflux into middle of packing
                            >
                            > The result was 30% less heads with latter setup. This means that the
                            > separation was increased when reflux was guided into middle of the
                            > packing.
                            >
                            > - Riku
                            >
                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "markapp" <markapp@y...> wrote:
                            > > Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                            > > the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool,
                            > never
                            > > realy dripping. Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                            > > that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition. Also
                            > > kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                            > > reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be missing
                            > > something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                            > > the walls Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a
                            > > possible refinement? Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                            > > explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                            > > simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks
                          • stevolate
                            Hi Harry and others. If your cross flow condenser was made out of Stainless steel, dose anyone know how big it would need to be. Do you think it would work
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 6, 2005
                              Hi Harry and others.
                              If your cross flow condenser was made out of Stainless steel,
                              dose anyone know how big it would need to be.
                              Do you think it would work with the poor thermal properties?

                              Happy drinking


                              Stevo
                            • Harry
                              ... I haven t used stainless, but there s no reason why it can t be used for the shell. However the tubes are a different matter. They are the transfer
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 6, 2005
                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stevolate" <stevolate@y...> wrote:
                                > Hi Harry and others.
                                > If your cross flow condenser was made out of Stainless steel,
                                > dose anyone know how big it would need to be.
                                > Do you think it would work with the poor thermal properties?
                                >
                                > Happy drinking
                                >
                                >
                                > Stevo



                                I haven't used stainless, but there's no reason why it can't be used
                                for the shell. However the tubes are a different matter. They are
                                the transfer medium between the hot vapours and the coolant. They
                                need to be made of metal with good thermal conductivity
                                characteristics.

                                There's only one metal that's got a better transfer rate than copper
                                and that's silver.
                                ..................Thermal Conductivity
                                ..................BTU / (hr - ft - °F)

                                Silver.............. 247.87
                                Copper.............. 231
                                Gold................ 183
                                Aluminum............ 136
                                Brass................ 69.33
                                Mild Steel........... 26
                                Lead................. 20.39
                                Stainless (304)....... 8.09


                                Which explains why those little stainless condensers on some
                                commercial hobby stills are so pitifully inadequate, or require so
                                much coolant to function.


                                Slainte!
                                regards Harry
                              • don1lia2joe3
                                Silver, what an idea, I used to do silver and goldsmithing and my wife says that I don t spend enough money on my hobbies anymore, at least I think that is
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 6, 2005
                                  Silver, what an idea, I used to do silver and goldsmithing and my
                                  wife says that I don't spend enough money on my hobbies anymore, at
                                  least I think that is what I wanted to hear her say, but if she
                                  didn't at least I can pleade dejivu.

                                  Her favorite saying is: "The only difference between men and boys is
                                  the price of their toys."



                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stevolate" <stevolate@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > Hi Harry and others.
                                  > > If your cross flow condenser was made out of Stainless
                                  steel,
                                  > > dose anyone know how big it would need to be.
                                  > > Do you think it would work with the poor thermal properties?
                                  > >
                                  > > Happy drinking
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Stevo
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I haven't used stainless, but there's no reason why it can't be
                                  used
                                  > for the shell. However the tubes are a different matter. They
                                  are
                                  > the transfer medium between the hot vapours and the coolant. They
                                  > need to be made of metal with good thermal conductivity
                                  > characteristics.
                                  >
                                  > There's only one metal that's got a better transfer rate than
                                  copper
                                  > and that's silver.
                                  > ..................Thermal Conductivity
                                  > ..................BTU / (hr - ft - °F)
                                  >
                                  > Silver.............. 247.87
                                  > Copper.............. 231
                                  > Gold................ 183
                                  > Aluminum............ 136
                                  > Brass................ 69.33
                                  > Mild Steel........... 26
                                  > Lead................. 20.39
                                  > Stainless (304)....... 8.09
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Which explains why those little stainless condensers on some
                                  > commercial hobby stills are so pitifully inadequate, or require so
                                  > much coolant to function.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Slainte!
                                  > regards Harry
                                • Derek Hamlet
                                  Harry, When I built my x flow I used brass pipe because that was all that was available in hard drawn 1/4 tubing. It works just fine. However, in looking at
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                    Harry,
                                    When I built my x flow I used brass pipe because that was all that was
                                    available in hard drawn 1/4" tubing. It works just fine. However, in
                                    looking at the thermal properties comparison I can see that I would have
                                    been much better off with copper.
                                    I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe. Is that
                                    available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft" copper and
                                    contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?
                                    At 05:50 PM 6/6/05, you wrote:
                                    >gnikomson2000@...

                                    Derek Hamlet
                                    Victoria, B.C.
                                  • Andrew Forsberg
                                    ... Hi Derek, Why does it have to be perfectly straight? As long as the ends of the pipe fit into the corresponding holds in the caps then that should do the
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                      On Mon, 2005-06-13 at 16:35 -0700, Derek Hamlet wrote:

                                      > I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe. Is that
                                      > available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft" copper and
                                      > contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?

                                      Hi Derek,

                                      Why does it have to be perfectly straight? As long as the ends of the
                                      pipe fit into the corresponding holds in the caps then that should do
                                      the job just fine. Put a different way -- the more bends in the pipe the
                                      more surface area there is for heat exchange.

                                      When I made my shotgun condenser (inside-out, rotated, crossflow) about
                                      a year or so back I remember having a bit of trouble getting the soft
                                      drawn lengths of pipe to fit through all the correct holes. A bit of
                                      perseverance, lot of swearing, and extra filing of the holes in the
                                      closing plate, and it all came together nicely.

                                      Cheers
                                      Andrew
                                    • Derek Hamlet
                                      Andrew, Yes, I may go that way on the condenser for my wife s aromatics still (she is into eau de vie), but, if I could find hard 1/4 copper it would reduce
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                        Andrew,
                                        Yes, I may go that way on the condenser for my wife's aromatics still (she
                                        is into eau de vie), but, if I could find hard 1/4" copper it would reduce
                                        my frustration level methinks.
                                        At 05:17 PM 6/13/05, you wrote:
                                        >On Mon, 2005-06-13 at 16:35 -0700, Derek Hamlet wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe. Is that
                                        > > available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft" copper
                                        > and
                                        > > contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?
                                        >
                                        >Hi Derek,
                                        >
                                        >Why does it have to be perfectly straight? As long as the ends of the
                                        >pipe fit into the corresponding holds in the caps then that should do
                                        >the job just fine. Put a different way -- the more bends in the pipe the
                                        >more surface area there is for heat exchange.
                                        >
                                        >When I made my shotgun condenser (inside-out, rotated, crossflow) about
                                        >a year or so back I remember having a bit of trouble getting the soft
                                        >drawn lengths of pipe to fit through all the correct holes. A bit of
                                        >perseverance, lot of swearing, and extra filing of the holes in the
                                        >closing plate, and it all came together nicely.
                                        >
                                        >Cheers
                                        >Andrew
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                        > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        Derek Hamlet
                                        Victoria, B.C.
                                      • l0a4n5g3e
                                        ... still (she ... would reduce ... Hi Derek, Me again. My experience is, to roll the soft 1/4 pipe segments between flat wood boards, which you put under
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@s...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > Andrew,
                                          > Yes, I may go that way on the condenser for my wife's aromatics
                                          still (she
                                          > is into eau de vie), but, if I could find hard 1/4" copper it
                                          would reduce
                                          > my frustration level methinks.
                                          > Derek Hamlet
                                          > Victoria, B.C.


                                          Hi Derek,

                                          Me again.

                                          My experience is, to roll the soft 1/4 " pipe segments between
                                          flat wood boards, which you put under pressure, i.e. place one board
                                          on the floor, place one piece of pipe on the board and with your
                                          foot on the covering board roll the pipe to and fro.
                                          And see it will straighten.

                                          As an electrician I had to straighten 6 and 10 mM square copper wire
                                          for installation inside cabinets, it was there that I practised it.
                                          Later as captain of the technical committee of our scuba diving club
                                          I was responsible for the installation of the high pressure piping
                                          for the filling of our dive tanks. We used a lot of softdrawn copper
                                          pipe and straightening was no problem at all! Especially as most of
                                          the piping was in clear view of all who needed a refill.

                                          It really works! I managed to straighten lengths of up to 1 meter
                                          (just over 3 feet)

                                          Good luck again,

                                          LangeA3
                                          Holland.
                                        • Derek Hamlet
                                          I ll try it on my next version of Harry s condenser. ... Derek Hamlet Victoria, B.C.
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                            I"ll try it on my next version of Harry's condenser.
                                            At 07:43 PM 6/13/05, you wrote:
                                            >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@s...>
                                            >wrote:
                                            > > Andrew,
                                            > > Yes, I may go that way on the condenser for my wife's aromatics
                                            >still (she
                                            > > is into eau de vie), but, if I could find hard 1/4" copper it
                                            >would reduce
                                            > > my frustration level methinks.
                                            > > Derek Hamlet
                                            > > Victoria, B.C.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Hi Derek,
                                            >
                                            >Me again.
                                            >
                                            >My experience is, to roll the soft 1/4 " pipe segments between
                                            >flat wood boards, which you put under pressure, i.e. place one board
                                            >on the floor, place one piece of pipe on the board and with your
                                            >foot on the covering board roll the pipe to and fro.
                                            >And see it will straighten.
                                            >
                                            >As an electrician I had to straighten 6 and 10 mM square copper wire
                                            >for installation inside cabinets, it was there that I practised it.
                                            >Later as captain of the technical committee of our scuba diving club
                                            >I was responsible for the installation of the high pressure piping
                                            >for the filling of our dive tanks. We used a lot of softdrawn copper
                                            >pipe and straightening was no problem at all! Especially as most of
                                            >the piping was in clear view of all who needed a refill.
                                            >
                                            >It really works! I managed to straighten lengths of up to 1 meter
                                            >(just over 3 feet)
                                            >
                                            >Good luck again,
                                            >
                                            >LangeA3
                                            >Holland.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                            > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            Derek Hamlet
                                            Victoria, B.C.
                                          • Harry
                                            ... was ... However, in ... would have ... Is that ... copper and ... Soft copper, a wooden mallet, a flat hardwood block as an anvil, and a little patience.
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@s...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > Harry,
                                              > When I built my x flow I used brass pipe because that was all that
                                              was
                                              > available in hard drawn 1/4" tubing. It works just fine.
                                              However, in
                                              > looking at the thermal properties comparison I can see that I
                                              would have
                                              > been much better off with copper.
                                              > I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe.
                                              Is that
                                              > available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft"
                                              copper and
                                              > contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?
                                              > At 05:50 PM 6/6/05, you wrote:
                                              > >gnikomson2000@y...
                                              >
                                              > Derek Hamlet
                                              > Victoria, B.C.



                                              Soft copper, a wooden mallet, a flat hardwood block as an anvil, and
                                              a little patience. Gently straighten enough length off the coil for
                                              about 2 pipes. Measure, cut with a small cheap pipecutter. Repeat
                                              until done.


                                              Slainte!
                                              regards Harry
                                            • Derek Hamlet
                                              Okay, that is what I ll do. I did find a web reference to a company (Cerrus) who make hard drawn 1/4 copper pipe, but, can find no supplier in Canada or more
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jun 14, 2005
                                                Okay, that is what I'll do.
                                                I did find a web reference to a company (Cerrus) who make hard drawn 1/4"
                                                copper pipe, but, can find no supplier in Canada or more importantly locally.
                                                So, soft copper it will be.
                                                I love my Crossflow condenser. It works so well.
                                                Kudos to Harry for sharing his plan.
                                                At 10:57 PM 6/13/05, you wrote:
                                                >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@s...>
                                                >wrote:
                                                > > Harry,
                                                > > When I built my x flow I used brass pipe because that was all that
                                                >was
                                                > > available in hard drawn 1/4" tubing. It works just fine.
                                                >However, in
                                                > > looking at the thermal properties comparison I can see that I
                                                >would have
                                                > > been much better off with copper.
                                                > > I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe.
                                                >Is that
                                                > > available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft"
                                                >copper and
                                                > > contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?
                                                > > At 05:50 PM 6/6/05, you wrote:
                                                > > >gnikomson2000@y...
                                                > >
                                                > > Derek Hamlet
                                                > > Victoria, B.C.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Soft copper, a wooden mallet, a flat hardwood block as an anvil, and
                                                >a little patience. Gently straighten enough length off the coil for
                                                >about 2 pipes. Measure, cut with a small cheap pipecutter. Repeat
                                                >until done.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Slainte!
                                                >regards Harry
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                                > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >

                                                Derek Hamlet
                                                Victoria, B.C.
                                              • oliminun
                                                Hej Riku, minun kaveri joka on nyt täälä tahtoo jutella sinun kanssasi kun se tulee takaisin ruotsiin. Hänen osoite on hattaratour2005@yahoo.se Terveisin
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jun 27, 2005
                                                  Hej Riku, minun kaveri joka on nyt täälä tahtoo jutella sinun kanssasi
                                                  kun se tulee takaisin ruotsiin. Hänen osoite on
                                                  hattaratour2005@...
                                                  Terveisin Merenkulkija reima@...

                                                  >
                                                  > - Riku
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