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Crossflow Plans for personal use

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  • Harry
    A few months ago I gave away the plans of the crossflow condenser to several members for trial purposes. Now it seems there s a bit of interest developing in
    Message 1 of 29 , May 30, 2005
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      A few months ago I gave away the plans of the crossflow condenser to
      several members for trial purposes. Now it seems there's a bit of
      interest developing in the concept, as a few people have build
      condensers based on the small amount of info I have so far released.
      So in the interests of giving something back to the hobby I enjoy, I've
      decided to go public with the condenser construction plans. While this
      doesn't give anyone the right to commercialize it, it will allow people
      to build one for their personal use. Hopefully this will be of benefit
      to those areas of the world where water is in short supply. Enjoy!


      http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/

      Monday, 30th May 2005

      1. Added Build A Practical Eco-Friendly Home Still. My contribution
      to still building at a practical level. It includes all plans and
      instructions for the Crossflow Condenser and recirculating coolant
      system.


      Friday, 27th May 2005

      1. Added site searching capabilities.



      Slainte!
      regards Harry





      Slainte!
      regards Harry


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    • markapp
      Congradulations harry on a well written well thought out unit. One bonus of the crossflow condensor that i did not notice mention of is the symetry. When
      Message 2 of 29 , May 30, 2005
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        Congradulations harry on a well written well thought out unit. One
        bonus of the crossflow condensor that i did not notice mention of is
        the symetry. When looking at the offset head reflux i notice some
        hbbyists have added tripod support column to boiler to help with the
        off-balance issue. the crossflow head apears to have very good
        properties of balance.I have no clue if this would or would not
        negate the need for bracing but it has to be better for balance of
        weight than the offset weight of an offset head. Just a thought but
        based on recent exchanger discusion regarding flow direction on the
        coil type condensor have you considered the possibility of
        incorporating say 2 pass to the desighn? A horizontal baffle plate in
        one end of the water header 1/2 way up (an even number of cross tubes
        on each side) the other end common with feed and discharge bottom and
        top on the same end as the baffle or dam? The reduced resitance to
        flow is of course dependant on many tubes so this may interfere with
        attempting to make 2 pass. Another alteration that may or may not
        bear investigation would a larger diameter shorter length crossflow
        top end possibly be more efficient? Upside more room for more tubes
        reducing resitance downside 3 inch fittings more costly. Hope the
        theoretical questions don't bother you too much it is so easy to peck
        at a desighn so difficult to create one. Good work thanks for sharing
        it with the public at large.--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Harry
        <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
        > A few months ago I gave away the plans of the crossflow condenser to
        > several members for trial purposes. Now it seems there's a bit of
        > interest developing in the concept, as a few people have build
        > condensers based on the small amount of info I have so far
        released.
        > So in the interests of giving something back to the hobby I enjoy,
        I've
        > decided to go public with the condenser construction plans. While
        this
        > doesn't give anyone the right to commercialize it, it will allow
        people
        > to build one for their personal use. Hopefully this will be of
        benefit
        > to those areas of the world where water is in short supply. Enjoy!
        >
        >
        > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
        >
        > Monday, 30th May 2005
        >
        > 1. Added Build A Practical Eco-Friendly Home Still. My
        contribution
        > to still building at a practical level. It includes all plans and
        > instructions for the Crossflow Condenser and recirculating coolant
        > system.
        >
        >
        > Friday, 27th May 2005
        >
        > 1. Added site searching capabilities.
        >
        >
        >
        > Slainte!
        > regards Harry
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Slainte!
        > regards Harry
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
      • markapp
        Very nice flange fabrication from a short scrap of tube in this file! I see a lot of posts that strugle with a way to flange. bravo! ... released. ... I ve ...
        Message 3 of 29 , May 30, 2005
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          Very nice flange fabrication from a short scrap of tube in this file!
          I see a lot of posts that strugle with a way to flange. bravo!

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Harry <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
          > A few months ago I gave away the plans of the crossflow condenser to
          > several members for trial purposes. Now it seems there's a bit of
          > interest developing in the concept, as a few people have build
          > condensers based on the small amount of info I have so far
          released.
          > So in the interests of giving something back to the hobby I enjoy,
          I've
          > decided to go public with the condenser construction plans. While
          this
          > doesn't give anyone the right to commercialize it, it will allow
          people
          > to build one for their personal use. Hopefully this will be of
          benefit
          > to those areas of the world where water is in short supply. Enjoy!
          >
          >
          > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
          >
          > Monday, 30th May 2005
          >
          > 1. Added Build A Practical Eco-Friendly Home Still. My
          contribution
          > to still building at a practical level. It includes all plans and
          > instructions for the Crossflow Condenser and recirculating coolant
          > system.
          >
          >
          > Friday, 27th May 2005
          >
          > 1. Added site searching capabilities.
          >
          >
          >
          > Slainte!
          > regards Harry
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Slainte!
          > regards Harry
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
        • Harry
          Hi Mark, Apologies for not responding earlier. The real world claimed my attention for a while. :) Replies interspersed... ... is ... the ...
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
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            Hi Mark,
            Apologies for not responding earlier. The real world claimed my
            attention for a while. :)
            Replies interspersed...

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "markapp" <markapp@y...> wrote:
            > Congradulations harry on a well written well thought out unit. One
            > bonus of the crossflow condensor that i did not notice mention of
            is
            > the symetry. When looking at the offset head reflux i notice some
            > hbbyists have added tripod support column to boiler to help with
            the
            > off-balance issue. the crossflow head apears to have very good
            > properties of balance.I have no clue if this would or would not
            > negate the need for bracing but it has to be better for balance of
            > weight than the offset weight of an offset head.



            ...............Mine balances fine just the way it is as you see in
            the Eureka Still in the file. No extra support necessary.



            Just a thought but
            > based on recent exchanger discusion regarding flow direction on
            the
            > coil type condensor have you considered the possibility of
            > incorporating say 2 pass to the desighn? A horizontal baffle plate
            in
            > one end of the water header 1/2 way up (an even number of cross
            tubes
            > on each side) the other end common with feed and discharge bottom
            and
            > top on the same end as the baffle or dam? The reduced resitance to
            > flow is of course dependant on many tubes so this may interfere
            with
            > attempting to make 2 pass. Another alteration that may or may not
            > bear investigation would a larger diameter shorter length
            crossflow
            > top end possibly be more efficient? Upside more room for more
            tubes
            > reducing resitance downside 3 inch fittings more costly.


            ..................This condenser at its present size has been tested
            to easily handle 1800w input. I haven't done all the calculations
            but I do believe it will go considerably higher, as it largely
            depends on the throughput of coolant per minute, rather than the
            actual size of the unit (up to a point, of course). Multipass is
            always an option but it adds to the complexity of construction, and
            the cost, for not much gain in a condenser of this size. Remember
            the principle K.I.S.S. In its present iteration, it's extremely
            adequate for the equipment (meaning column sizes) we are using at
            present. It's a simple matter to upsize it (fries with that?) if
            necessary for larger diameter columns.


            Hope the
            > theoretical questions don't bother you too much it is so easy to
            peck
            > at a desighn so difficult to create one. Good work thanks for
            sharing
            > it with the public at large.


            .............Thank you for the kind words. Just trying to do my bit
            for the hobby. A man could easily get hit by a car tomorrow, and if
            not published, the knowledge would be lost until someone else
            stumbles on the ideas. This way it's out there, and be damned to
            any beaurocrat who wants to supress it. ;-)
            (Note to self: get off the soapbox, Harry).

            Slainte!
            regards Harry
          • Adam Donnison
            ... Harry, I hope you never get off the soapbox. Your input to this group is invaluable. I know I don t often have time to devote to the group, but I _always_
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
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              Harry wrote:
              > (Note to self: get off the soapbox, Harry).

              Harry, I hope you never get off the soapbox. Your input to this
              group is invaluable. I know I don't often have time to devote to
              the group, but I _always_ enjoy your posts. Keep up the good work.

              Adam

              --
              Adam Donnison email: adam@...
              Saki Computer Services Pty. Ltd.
              93 Kallista-Emerald Road phone: +61 3 9752 1512
              THE PATCH VIC 3792 AUSTRALIA fax: +61 3 9752 1098
            • abbababbaccc
              I seem to be in a creative mood, how about making an inverted liebig version of that crossflow condenser? It should be quite easy to build with reglular
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
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                I seem to be in a creative mood, how about making an inverted liebig
                version of that crossflow condenser? It should be quite easy to build
                with reglular plumbing components and when properly sized could easily
                take 1kW or a bit more.

                - Riku
              • Harry
                ... build ... easily ... Hi Riku, I don t know if you realise it, but you ve just hit on the reason why I decided to put the vapour OUTSIDE the cooling tubes.
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
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                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > I seem to be in a creative mood, how about making an inverted liebig
                  > version of that crossflow condenser? It should be quite easy to
                  build
                  > with reglular plumbing components and when properly sized could
                  easily
                  > take 1kW or a bit more.
                  >
                  > - Riku



                  Hi Riku,
                  I don't know if you realise it, but you've just hit on the reason why
                  I decided to put the vapour OUTSIDE the cooling tubes. Think about
                  this...1ml of liquid produces some 45ml of vapour (roughly).
                  Therefore it's logical to let the vapour expand into a large capacity
                  cylinder, and the coolant to be in the smaller capacity side of the
                  shell/tube configuration, no? Crossflows, liebigs, multipass etc can
                  all be designed on this principle. The chemical engineers here will
                  confirm this concept. I don't remember the 'rule-of-thumb' but there
                  is a way of working out which fluid should occupy the shell-side and
                  which should occupy the tube-side of a heat exchanger. If I find it
                  among all my notes (25gig) I'll post it.


                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry
                • abbababbaccc
                  Well, that s the reason I said INVERTED Liebig, ie. just a straight tube where water flows and a vapor jacket around it. With high capacity pump you could make
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
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                    Well, that's the reason I said INVERTED Liebig, ie. just a straight
                    tube where water flows and a vapor jacket around it. With high
                    capacity pump you could make it quite short and the construction
                    would be very easy with standard plumbing components. Finding a
                    proper sizing is naturally another matter. The reason I thought about
                    this is that a large part of distillers here use 2" columns and
                    heating elements in the neighborhood of 1kW.

                    As an example a 50cm piece of 15mm pipe and water flow of
                    180liters/hour should cool off 1 kW. Increasing the pipe size to 22mm
                    allows using 35cm long condenser for that power. This is theory of
                    course. In practise you'd have to find proper size for the vapor
                    jacket and make sure the vapor actually flows around the condenser
                    pipe.

                    - Riku

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                    <abbababbaccc@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > I seem to be in a creative mood, how about making an inverted
                    liebig
                    > > version of that crossflow condenser? It should be quite easy to
                    > build
                    > > with reglular plumbing components and when properly sized could
                    > easily
                    > > take 1kW or a bit more.
                    > >
                    > > - Riku
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Riku,
                    > I don't know if you realise it, but you've just hit on the reason
                    why
                    > I decided to put the vapour OUTSIDE the cooling tubes. Think about
                    > this...1ml of liquid produces some 45ml of vapour (roughly).
                    > Therefore it's logical to let the vapour expand into a large
                    capacity
                    > cylinder, and the coolant to be in the smaller capacity side of the
                    > shell/tube configuration, no? Crossflows, liebigs, multipass etc
                    can
                    > all be designed on this principle. The chemical engineers here
                    will
                    > confirm this concept. I don't remember the 'rule-of-thumb' but
                    there
                    > is a way of working out which fluid should occupy the shell-side
                    and
                    > which should occupy the tube-side of a heat exchanger. If I find
                    it
                    > among all my notes (25gig) I'll post it.
                    >
                    >
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry
                  • Harry
                    ... straight ... about ... 22mm ... Your theory is broadly correct. However, the details are a lot more intricate. You need to consider laminar flow (among
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
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                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                      <abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
                      > Well, that's the reason I said INVERTED Liebig, ie. just a
                      straight
                      > tube where water flows and a vapor jacket around it. With high
                      > capacity pump you could make it quite short and the construction
                      > would be very easy with standard plumbing components. Finding a
                      > proper sizing is naturally another matter. The reason I thought
                      about
                      > this is that a large part of distillers here use 2" columns and
                      > heating elements in the neighborhood of 1kW.
                      >
                      > As an example a 50cm piece of 15mm pipe and water flow of
                      > 180liters/hour should cool off 1 kW. Increasing the pipe size to
                      22mm
                      > allows using 35cm long condenser for that power. This is theory of
                      > course. In practise you'd have to find proper size for the vapor
                      > jacket and make sure the vapor actually flows around the condenser
                      > pipe.
                      >
                      > - Riku



                      Your theory is broadly correct. However, the details are a lot more
                      intricate. You need to consider laminar flow (among other things),
                      meaning that the fluid (liquid and gas) flow nearest the transfer
                      wall moves slower than the fluid in the centre of the vapour or
                      liquid medium, due to friction. Therefore the transfer of heat
                      becomes other than linear. There are equations for working this
                      out, but once again, you need to consult a chemical engineer to get
                      the figures. I have the equations, but it's outside my field of
                      expertise. Perhaps Mike Nixon or Tony Ackland can help.

                      Aside from that, the condenser would need to have turbulence
                      introduced into the vapour, via baffles, as this increases the
                      contact and changes the angle of attack between the vapour, the heat
                      transfer medium (the tube walls) and the coolant.

                      One thing in the favour of the hobbyist is that the designs we build
                      are extremely small in the broad scheme of things, therefore if we
                      make a small error in calculations, it's not critical (usually). A
                      small increase in coolant flow will usually overcome most design
                      errors.

                      Slainte!
                      regards Harry
                    • stevolate
                      Hi Harry Great job Just a couple of questions. How dose the liquid cross the dam wall to the other side, would it not build up on the other side. And possibly
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
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                        Hi Harry
                        Great job
                        Just a couple of questions.
                        How dose the liquid cross the dam wall to the other side, would it not
                        build up on the other side. And possibly fall back down the column?
                        Would a large amount of condensate fall back down the column from the
                        tubes above the column?

                        I will have a go at building a Howard F Jackson crossflow condenser
                        head when I get time.

                        Thanks Harry fantastic setup.

                        Stevo
                      • Cary Rhodes
                        I know the Q was to Harry, but I will interject a little here. Just because I have built one of Harry devices and use it regularly. I guess I, like ya ll, am
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
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                          I know the Q was to Harry, but I will interject a little here.


                          Just because I have built one of Harry devices and use it regularly.

                          I guess I, like ya'll, am accumulating a shelf full of items that I no
                          longer use. That condensor over there is the previous model. "Does it
                          work"? Yep, it works but this one works better.

                          The crossflow is a good item. small, compact, efficient, low cooling
                          water usage.

                          Stevo, the insert that slides up inside the "T" needs to be sqeezed
                          down to create a 'neck'. the condensate actually flows around the
                          necked insert to reach the outlet port.

                          to limit takeoff just throttle the outlet valve. the product will
                          accumulate and overflow the 'dam' back into the column.

                          I did have some difficulty stopping the leaks around the diaphram that
                          separates the cooling water from the vapor chamber. I actually brazed
                          the copper tubes to the diaphram plate.

                          silver soldered the plate to the housing and soft soldered the caps
                          onto the tee.

                          this keeps from melting your previous work.

                          cary r







                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stevolate" <stevolate@y...> wrote:
                          > Hi Harry
                          > Great job
                          > Just a couple of questions.
                          > How dose the liquid cross the dam wall to the other side, would it not
                          > build up on the other side. And possibly fall back down the column?
                          > Would a large amount of condensate fall back down the column from the
                          > tubes above the column?
                          >
                          > I will have a go at building a Howard F Jackson crossflow condenser
                          > head when I get time.
                          >
                          > Thanks Harry fantastic setup.
                          >
                          > Stevo
                        • Dean Thomas
                          Hi Harry, Riku, etc. Refrigeration heat transfer coils (condenser and evaporator) use Rifle bore tubing the idea is that as the refrigerant passes through the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
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                            Hi Harry, Riku, etc.

                            Refrigeration heat transfer coils (condenser and evaporator) use Rifle
                            bore tubing the idea is that as the refrigerant passes through the
                            rifle boring inside the tube not only is turbulence created but in the
                            case of liquid/vapour phase change the liquid is thrown to the outside
                            (against the walls) giving better heat transfer.

                            Although our (Distillers) rate of flow isn't as fast as that inside a
                            refrigerant system maybe this type of tubing would be of benefit when
                            designing your next condenser.

                            Dean.


                            >Your theory is broadly correct. However, the details are a lot more
                            >intricate. You need to consider laminar flow (among other things),
                            >meaning that the fluid (liquid and gas) flow nearest the transfer
                            >wall moves slower than the fluid in the centre of the vapour or
                            >liquid medium, due to friction. Therefore the transfer of heat
                            >becomes other than linear. There are equations for working this
                            >out, but once again, you need to consult a chemical engineer to get
                            >the figures. I have the equations, but it's outside my field of
                            >expertise. Perhaps Mike Nixon or Tony Ackland can help.
                            >
                            >Aside from that, the condenser would need to have turbulence
                            >introduced into the vapour, via baffles, as this increases the
                            >contact and changes the angle of attack between the vapour, the heat
                            >transfer medium (the tube walls) and the coolant.
                            >
                            >One thing in the favour of the hobbyist is that the designs we build
                            >are extremely small in the broad scheme of things, therefore if we
                            >make a small error in calculations, it's not critical (usually). A
                            >small increase in coolant flow will usually overcome most design
                            >errors.
                            >
                            >Slainte!
                            >regards Harry
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                            > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • markapp
                            Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool, never realy dripping.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
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                              Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                              the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool, never
                              realy dripping. Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                              that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition. Also
                              kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                              reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be missing
                              something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                              the walls Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a
                              possible refinement? Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                              explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                              simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks
                            • abbababbaccc
                              I have experimented a VM system with centered and non centered reflux. The setup was: Reflux coil directly above the packing, straight column so some reflux
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                I have experimented a VM system with centered and non centered reflux.
                                The setup was:

                                Reflux coil directly above the packing, straight column so some reflux
                                will go down the column walls

                                The same as above but this time I made a collar inbetween the coil and
                                the packing to guide all reflux into middle of packing

                                The result was 30% less heads with latter setup. This means that the
                                separation was increased when reflux was guided into middle of the
                                packing.

                                - Riku

                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "markapp" <markapp@y...> wrote:
                                > Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                                > the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool,
                                never
                                > realy dripping. Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                                > that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition. Also
                                > kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                                > reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be missing
                                > something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                                > the walls Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a
                                > possible refinement? Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                                > explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                                > simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks
                              • Harry
                                Hi Mark, I ll try to tackle this a step at a time... ... never ... ............Theory says there should always be a certain amount of reflux from dripping over
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                  Hi Mark,
                                  I'll try to tackle this a step at a time...


                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "markapp" <markapp@y...> wrote:
                                  > Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                                  > the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool,
                                  never
                                  > realy dripping.


                                  ............Theory says there should always be a certain amount of
                                  reflux from dripping over the centre 45mm column top (the dam wall).
                                  Practice shows that the drops of condensate tend to go along the tubes
                                  to either end and fall into the sump. This is helped along by the
                                  rising vapour, which is actually drawn into the condenser by the small
                                  vacuum condition set up by the collapse of vapour to liquid (yes I
                                  know it's open to atmosphere via the vent, but you still get partial
                                  vacuum).
                                  If you had the skill, money and time to make the condenser entirely
                                  out of glass, you'd see what I'm talking about.


                                  Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                                  > that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition.

                                  .............Because of the scenario above, very little reflux is via
                                  dripping. It's safe to assume all reflux is via dam wall overflow.

                                  Also
                                  > kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                                  > reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be
                                  missing
                                  > something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                                  > the walls



                                  ............Yes it does, but you still get minor tracking down the
                                  wall of the column. This is not relevant in an insulated column, as
                                  the temperature across an insulated column is the same at a give
                                  height. Therefore it doesn't matter if the descending liquid is in
                                  the centre or at the side. The temperature at that level is the same
                                  for centre and edge, and the descending liquid will still reboil and
                                  give up vapour as it reaches the correct temperature level. The
                                  vapour thus given off will expand to occupy some 45 times the volume
                                  of the parent liquid, thereby forcing itself back into the packing
                                  thoroughly.

                                  In an uninsulated column, all bets are off.



                                  Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a possible
                                  refinement?


                                  ....................It could. So could doing away altogether with the
                                  sump takeoff point and installing standard dual angled plates in the
                                  column to capture all condensate. This could then be split into
                                  reflux and product with a single valve. Alex has used this setup in
                                  some of his columns.


                                  > Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                                  > explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                                  > simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks


                                  If you don't ask questions, you'll never know. :-))



                                  Slainte!
                                  regards Harry
                                • Alex _{*L*}_ (a.k.a. BOKAKOB)
                                  There will be no dripping in any condenser if it is at an angle. Distillate will happily slide down along the cooling tubes toward the pool. Dripping will
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                    There will be no dripping in any condenser if it is at an angle. Distillate will happily slide down along the cooling tubes toward the pool.

                                    Dripping will occur only on condition when surface tension is less than the gravity pull. In other words -- if you have almost any angle (15* and up) then all your distillate will cling to the cooling tubes.

                                    To prevent it some drip points should be regularly made along the cooling tubes. Otherwise you need horizontal arrangement of the cooling tubes.

                                    That is what I think! ;-)

                                    markapp <markapp@...> wrote:
                                    Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                                    the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool, never
                                    realy dripping. Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                                    that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition. Also
                                    kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                                    reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be missing
                                    something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                                    the walls Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a
                                    possible refinement? Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                                    explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                                    simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks




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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Harry
                                    ... Distillate will happily slide down along the cooling tubes toward the pool. ... than the gravity pull. In other words -- if you have almost any angle (15*
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex _{*L*}_ \(a.k.a. BOKAKOB\)"
                                      <bokakob@y...> wrote:
                                      > There will be no dripping in any condenser if it is at an angle.
                                      Distillate will happily slide down along the cooling tubes toward
                                      the pool.

                                      .........True, but this condenser is level.


                                      >
                                      > Dripping will occur only on condition when surface tension is less
                                      than the gravity pull. In other words -- if you have almost any
                                      angle (15* and up) then all your distillate will cling to the
                                      cooling tubes.




                                      ..............Partially true. Moreso for the first part of your
                                      statement. Liquid tends to cling to the surface where it condensed,
                                      or first landed. Think about raindrops on an old-fashioned clothes
                                      line wire. But don't forget about the pressure of rising vapour.



                                      >
                                      > To prevent it some drip points should be regularly made along the
                                      cooling tubes. Otherwise you need horizontal arrangement of the
                                      cooling tubes.


                                      ............Why would you want to prevent it? It's practical for
                                      the condensate to work its way over the sump area. Don't forget it
                                      is helped along by the pressure of rising vapour. If you slowed the
                                      coolant feed to a trickle, then rising vapour would cause pressure
                                      shear in the direction of the condenser endplates. We need to
                                      strike a happy balance between coolant speed and condensate movement.



                                      >
                                      > That is what I think! ;-)

                                      .............Good points, Alex. Practical thought is what makes
                                      this hobby so fascinating, from many angles.


                                      Slainte!
                                      regards Harry
                                    • Lindsay Williams
                                      Interesting to see some empirical evidence. I might have another go at my washer to make doubly sure it drips into the centre (a glass column would be
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Interesting to see some empirical evidence. I might have another go at
                                        my 'washer' to make doubly sure it drips into the centre (a glass
                                        column would be good!). Thanks for the work and sharing it with us.

                                        Cheers,
                                        Lindsay.

                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > I have experimented a VM system with centered and non centered reflux.
                                        > The setup was:
                                        >
                                        > Reflux coil directly above the packing, straight column so some reflux
                                        > will go down the column walls
                                        >
                                        > The same as above but this time I made a collar inbetween the coil and
                                        > the packing to guide all reflux into middle of packing
                                        >
                                        > The result was 30% less heads with latter setup. This means that the
                                        > separation was increased when reflux was guided into middle of the
                                        > packing.
                                        >
                                        > - Riku
                                        >
                                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "markapp" <markapp@y...> wrote:
                                        > > Just wondering does some reflux drip all over or does it tend to run
                                        > > the coolant tubes to the header plates and run dowwn to the pool,
                                        > never
                                        > > realy dripping. Reasoning is, does some reflux always occur, as drips
                                        > > that hit the hole or is reflux only in a dam overflow condition. Also
                                        > > kind of wondering about the theories regarding prefered placement of
                                        > > reflux to be center of column rather than perimeter. I may be missing
                                        > > something as the dam sleeve may be intended to direct the reflux off
                                        > > the walls Could a t and second valve piped to a center drip be a
                                        > > possible refinement? Hope it is ok to ask as i know the theory and
                                        > > explaination was intentionaly avoided to some extent in favor of
                                        > > simplicity and clarity in the instruction. thanks
                                      • stevolate
                                        Hi Harry and others. If your cross flow condenser was made out of Stainless steel, dose anyone know how big it would need to be. Do you think it would work
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                          Hi Harry and others.
                                          If your cross flow condenser was made out of Stainless steel,
                                          dose anyone know how big it would need to be.
                                          Do you think it would work with the poor thermal properties?

                                          Happy drinking


                                          Stevo
                                        • Harry
                                          ... I haven t used stainless, but there s no reason why it can t be used for the shell. However the tubes are a different matter. They are the transfer
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stevolate" <stevolate@y...> wrote:
                                            > Hi Harry and others.
                                            > If your cross flow condenser was made out of Stainless steel,
                                            > dose anyone know how big it would need to be.
                                            > Do you think it would work with the poor thermal properties?
                                            >
                                            > Happy drinking
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Stevo



                                            I haven't used stainless, but there's no reason why it can't be used
                                            for the shell. However the tubes are a different matter. They are
                                            the transfer medium between the hot vapours and the coolant. They
                                            need to be made of metal with good thermal conductivity
                                            characteristics.

                                            There's only one metal that's got a better transfer rate than copper
                                            and that's silver.
                                            ..................Thermal Conductivity
                                            ..................BTU / (hr - ft - °F)

                                            Silver.............. 247.87
                                            Copper.............. 231
                                            Gold................ 183
                                            Aluminum............ 136
                                            Brass................ 69.33
                                            Mild Steel........... 26
                                            Lead................. 20.39
                                            Stainless (304)....... 8.09


                                            Which explains why those little stainless condensers on some
                                            commercial hobby stills are so pitifully inadequate, or require so
                                            much coolant to function.


                                            Slainte!
                                            regards Harry
                                          • don1lia2joe3
                                            Silver, what an idea, I used to do silver and goldsmithing and my wife says that I don t spend enough money on my hobbies anymore, at least I think that is
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                              Silver, what an idea, I used to do silver and goldsmithing and my
                                              wife says that I don't spend enough money on my hobbies anymore, at
                                              least I think that is what I wanted to hear her say, but if she
                                              didn't at least I can pleade dejivu.

                                              Her favorite saying is: "The only difference between men and boys is
                                              the price of their toys."



                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stevolate" <stevolate@y...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > > Hi Harry and others.
                                              > > If your cross flow condenser was made out of Stainless
                                              steel,
                                              > > dose anyone know how big it would need to be.
                                              > > Do you think it would work with the poor thermal properties?
                                              > >
                                              > > Happy drinking
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Stevo
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I haven't used stainless, but there's no reason why it can't be
                                              used
                                              > for the shell. However the tubes are a different matter. They
                                              are
                                              > the transfer medium between the hot vapours and the coolant. They
                                              > need to be made of metal with good thermal conductivity
                                              > characteristics.
                                              >
                                              > There's only one metal that's got a better transfer rate than
                                              copper
                                              > and that's silver.
                                              > ..................Thermal Conductivity
                                              > ..................BTU / (hr - ft - °F)
                                              >
                                              > Silver.............. 247.87
                                              > Copper.............. 231
                                              > Gold................ 183
                                              > Aluminum............ 136
                                              > Brass................ 69.33
                                              > Mild Steel........... 26
                                              > Lead................. 20.39
                                              > Stainless (304)....... 8.09
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Which explains why those little stainless condensers on some
                                              > commercial hobby stills are so pitifully inadequate, or require so
                                              > much coolant to function.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Slainte!
                                              > regards Harry
                                            • Derek Hamlet
                                              Harry, When I built my x flow I used brass pipe because that was all that was available in hard drawn 1/4 tubing. It works just fine. However, in looking at
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
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                                                Harry,
                                                When I built my x flow I used brass pipe because that was all that was
                                                available in hard drawn 1/4" tubing. It works just fine. However, in
                                                looking at the thermal properties comparison I can see that I would have
                                                been much better off with copper.
                                                I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe. Is that
                                                available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft" copper and
                                                contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?
                                                At 05:50 PM 6/6/05, you wrote:
                                                >gnikomson2000@...

                                                Derek Hamlet
                                                Victoria, B.C.
                                              • Andrew Forsberg
                                                ... Hi Derek, Why does it have to be perfectly straight? As long as the ends of the pipe fit into the corresponding holds in the caps then that should do the
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  On Mon, 2005-06-13 at 16:35 -0700, Derek Hamlet wrote:

                                                  > I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe. Is that
                                                  > available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft" copper and
                                                  > contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?

                                                  Hi Derek,

                                                  Why does it have to be perfectly straight? As long as the ends of the
                                                  pipe fit into the corresponding holds in the caps then that should do
                                                  the job just fine. Put a different way -- the more bends in the pipe the
                                                  more surface area there is for heat exchange.

                                                  When I made my shotgun condenser (inside-out, rotated, crossflow) about
                                                  a year or so back I remember having a bit of trouble getting the soft
                                                  drawn lengths of pipe to fit through all the correct holes. A bit of
                                                  perseverance, lot of swearing, and extra filing of the holes in the
                                                  closing plate, and it all came together nicely.

                                                  Cheers
                                                  Andrew
                                                • Derek Hamlet
                                                  Andrew, Yes, I may go that way on the condenser for my wife s aromatics still (she is into eau de vie), but, if I could find hard 1/4 copper it would reduce
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Andrew,
                                                    Yes, I may go that way on the condenser for my wife's aromatics still (she
                                                    is into eau de vie), but, if I could find hard 1/4" copper it would reduce
                                                    my frustration level methinks.
                                                    At 05:17 PM 6/13/05, you wrote:
                                                    >On Mon, 2005-06-13 at 16:35 -0700, Derek Hamlet wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe. Is that
                                                    > > available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft" copper
                                                    > and
                                                    > > contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?
                                                    >
                                                    >Hi Derek,
                                                    >
                                                    >Why does it have to be perfectly straight? As long as the ends of the
                                                    >pipe fit into the corresponding holds in the caps then that should do
                                                    >the job just fine. Put a different way -- the more bends in the pipe the
                                                    >more surface area there is for heat exchange.
                                                    >
                                                    >When I made my shotgun condenser (inside-out, rotated, crossflow) about
                                                    >a year or so back I remember having a bit of trouble getting the soft
                                                    >drawn lengths of pipe to fit through all the correct holes. A bit of
                                                    >perseverance, lot of swearing, and extra filing of the holes in the
                                                    >closing plate, and it all came together nicely.
                                                    >
                                                    >Cheers
                                                    >Andrew
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                                    > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    Derek Hamlet
                                                    Victoria, B.C.
                                                  • l0a4n5g3e
                                                    ... still (she ... would reduce ... Hi Derek, Me again. My experience is, to roll the soft 1/4 pipe segments between flat wood boards, which you put under
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@s...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      > Andrew,
                                                      > Yes, I may go that way on the condenser for my wife's aromatics
                                                      still (she
                                                      > is into eau de vie), but, if I could find hard 1/4" copper it
                                                      would reduce
                                                      > my frustration level methinks.
                                                      > Derek Hamlet
                                                      > Victoria, B.C.


                                                      Hi Derek,

                                                      Me again.

                                                      My experience is, to roll the soft 1/4 " pipe segments between
                                                      flat wood boards, which you put under pressure, i.e. place one board
                                                      on the floor, place one piece of pipe on the board and with your
                                                      foot on the covering board roll the pipe to and fro.
                                                      And see it will straighten.

                                                      As an electrician I had to straighten 6 and 10 mM square copper wire
                                                      for installation inside cabinets, it was there that I practised it.
                                                      Later as captain of the technical committee of our scuba diving club
                                                      I was responsible for the installation of the high pressure piping
                                                      for the filling of our dive tanks. We used a lot of softdrawn copper
                                                      pipe and straightening was no problem at all! Especially as most of
                                                      the piping was in clear view of all who needed a refill.

                                                      It really works! I managed to straighten lengths of up to 1 meter
                                                      (just over 3 feet)

                                                      Good luck again,

                                                      LangeA3
                                                      Holland.
                                                    • Derek Hamlet
                                                      I ll try it on my next version of Harry s condenser. ... Derek Hamlet Victoria, B.C.
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
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                                                        I"ll try it on my next version of Harry's condenser.
                                                        At 07:43 PM 6/13/05, you wrote:
                                                        >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@s...>
                                                        >wrote:
                                                        > > Andrew,
                                                        > > Yes, I may go that way on the condenser for my wife's aromatics
                                                        >still (she
                                                        > > is into eau de vie), but, if I could find hard 1/4" copper it
                                                        >would reduce
                                                        > > my frustration level methinks.
                                                        > > Derek Hamlet
                                                        > > Victoria, B.C.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >Hi Derek,
                                                        >
                                                        >Me again.
                                                        >
                                                        >My experience is, to roll the soft 1/4 " pipe segments between
                                                        >flat wood boards, which you put under pressure, i.e. place one board
                                                        >on the floor, place one piece of pipe on the board and with your
                                                        >foot on the covering board roll the pipe to and fro.
                                                        >And see it will straighten.
                                                        >
                                                        >As an electrician I had to straighten 6 and 10 mM square copper wire
                                                        >for installation inside cabinets, it was there that I practised it.
                                                        >Later as captain of the technical committee of our scuba diving club
                                                        >I was responsible for the installation of the high pressure piping
                                                        >for the filling of our dive tanks. We used a lot of softdrawn copper
                                                        >pipe and straightening was no problem at all! Especially as most of
                                                        >the piping was in clear view of all who needed a refill.
                                                        >
                                                        >It really works! I managed to straighten lengths of up to 1 meter
                                                        >(just over 3 feet)
                                                        >
                                                        >Good luck again,
                                                        >
                                                        >LangeA3
                                                        >Holland.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                                        > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >

                                                        Derek Hamlet
                                                        Victoria, B.C.
                                                      • Harry
                                                        ... was ... However, in ... would have ... Is that ... copper and ... Soft copper, a wooden mallet, a flat hardwood block as an anvil, and a little patience.
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jun 13, 2005
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@s...>
                                                          wrote:
                                                          > Harry,
                                                          > When I built my x flow I used brass pipe because that was all that
                                                          was
                                                          > available in hard drawn 1/4" tubing. It works just fine.
                                                          However, in
                                                          > looking at the thermal properties comparison I can see that I
                                                          would have
                                                          > been much better off with copper.
                                                          > I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe.
                                                          Is that
                                                          > available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft"
                                                          copper and
                                                          > contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?
                                                          > At 05:50 PM 6/6/05, you wrote:
                                                          > >gnikomson2000@y...
                                                          >
                                                          > Derek Hamlet
                                                          > Victoria, B.C.



                                                          Soft copper, a wooden mallet, a flat hardwood block as an anvil, and
                                                          a little patience. Gently straighten enough length off the coil for
                                                          about 2 pipes. Measure, cut with a small cheap pipecutter. Repeat
                                                          until done.


                                                          Slainte!
                                                          regards Harry
                                                        • Derek Hamlet
                                                          Okay, that is what I ll do. I did find a web reference to a company (Cerrus) who make hard drawn 1/4 copper pipe, but, can find no supplier in Canada or more
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jun 14, 2005
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Okay, that is what I'll do.
                                                            I did find a web reference to a company (Cerrus) who make hard drawn 1/4"
                                                            copper pipe, but, can find no supplier in Canada or more importantly locally.
                                                            So, soft copper it will be.
                                                            I love my Crossflow condenser. It works so well.
                                                            Kudos to Harry for sharing his plan.
                                                            At 10:57 PM 6/13/05, you wrote:
                                                            >--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@s...>
                                                            >wrote:
                                                            > > Harry,
                                                            > > When I built my x flow I used brass pipe because that was all that
                                                            >was
                                                            > > available in hard drawn 1/4" tubing. It works just fine.
                                                            >However, in
                                                            > > looking at the thermal properties comparison I can see that I
                                                            >would have
                                                            > > been much better off with copper.
                                                            > > I have yet to track down a source of the "hard" 1/4" copper pipe.
                                                            >Is that
                                                            > > available to you southern hemisphere types or did you use "soft"
                                                            >copper and
                                                            > > contrive a way to get them perfectly straight?
                                                            > > At 05:50 PM 6/6/05, you wrote:
                                                            > > >gnikomson2000@y...
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Derek Hamlet
                                                            > > Victoria, B.C.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >Soft copper, a wooden mallet, a flat hardwood block as an anvil, and
                                                            >a little patience. Gently straighten enough length off the coil for
                                                            >about 2 pipes. Measure, cut with a small cheap pipecutter. Repeat
                                                            >until done.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >Slainte!
                                                            >regards Harry
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                                            > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >

                                                            Derek Hamlet
                                                            Victoria, B.C.
                                                          • oliminun
                                                            Hej Riku, minun kaveri joka on nyt täälä tahtoo jutella sinun kanssasi kun se tulee takaisin ruotsiin. Hänen osoite on hattaratour2005@yahoo.se Terveisin
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jun 27, 2005
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                                                              Hej Riku, minun kaveri joka on nyt täälä tahtoo jutella sinun kanssasi
                                                              kun se tulee takaisin ruotsiin. Hänen osoite on
                                                              hattaratour2005@...
                                                              Terveisin Merenkulkija reima@...

                                                              >
                                                              > - Riku
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