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Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

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  • Mike Nixon
    ric hutchings wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!! I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C Probably pretty
    Message 1 of 16 , May 4, 2005
      ric hutchings wrote:
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

      I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C
      Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there.
      Or at least thats what I read on this forum.
      ==============
      What's all this about acetone? Don't you mean ethyl acetate?

      All the best,
      Mike N
    • ric hutchings
      Mike I include here a copy of an earlier post on this forum. Snowblind Moose Date: 02/26/05 17:01:21 To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Subject:
      Message 2 of 16 , May 4, 2005
        Mike I include here a copy of an earlier post on this forum.
        Snowblind Moose
        Date: 02/26/05 17:01:21
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Evaporation Temp, Table


        Hi Slipslider,

        Is this what you're looking for? - It's from homedistiller.org:


        The alcohols in the wash begin to vapourise from the wash around
        specific temperatures. If by themselves they would be ...

        Acetone 56.5C (134F)
        Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
        Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
        Ethanol 78C (172F)
        2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
        1-Propanol 97C (207F)
        Water 100C (212F)
        Butanol 116C (241F)
        Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
        Furfural 161C (322F)

        Once together, a mixture of several of them will be slightly
        different however. You no longer get them coming off seperately, but
        always as a mixture. Fortunately for us though, each of the species
        will tend to dominate around its boiling point temperature, thus we
        know whats "mostly" coming off at that point. By tracking the
        temperature of the vapour, you have a fairly good idea when you're
        collecting the Ethanol your after (78-82 °C), vs when it is starting
        to get lean and you're into the higher alcohols.

        -Tony



        If I have miss read Acetone for ethyl acetate then I apologies.
        If not then you may care to explain why such an erroneous posting could find
        its way to the forum and then become accepted fact.
        Or is it just more of that "nonsense " you referred to earlier today.
        regards ric

        -------Original Message-------

        From: Mike Nixon
        Date: 05/04/05 16:35:45
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

        ric hutchings wrote:
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

        I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C
        Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there.
        Or at least thats what I read on this forum.
        ==============
        What's all this about acetone? Don't you mean ethyl acetate?

        All the best,
        Mike N



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      • Mike Nixon
        ric hutchings wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!! Mike I include here a copy of an earlier post on this forum. Snowblind Moose Date:
        Message 3 of 16 , May 4, 2005
          ric hutchings wrote:
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

          Mike I include here a copy of an earlier post on this forum.
          Snowblind Moose
          Date: 02/26/05 17:01:21
          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Evaporation Temp, Table

          Hi Slipslider,

          Is this what you're looking for? - It's from homedistiller.org:

          The alcohols in the wash begin to vapourise from the wash around
          specific temperatures. If by themselves they would be ...

          Acetone 56.5C (134F)
          Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
          Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
          Ethanol 78C (172F)
          2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
          1-Propanol 97C (207F)
          Water 100C (212F)
          Butanol 116C (241F)
          Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
          Furfural 161C (322F)

          Once together, a mixture of several of them will be slightly
          different however. You no longer get them coming off seperately, but
          always as a mixture. Fortunately for us though, each of the species
          will tend to dominate around its boiling point temperature, thus we
          know whats "mostly" coming off at that point. By tracking the
          temperature of the vapour, you have a fairly good idea when you're
          collecting the Ethanol your after (78-82 °C), vs when it is starting
          to get lean and you're into the higher alcohols.

          -Tony
          ---------------------------------------
          If I have miss read Acetone for ethyl acetate then I apologies.
          If not then you may care to explain why such an erroneous posting could find
          its way to the forum and then become accepted fact.
          Or is it just more of that "nonsense " you referred to earlier today.
          regards ric
          ==========================
          Good grief Ric ,,, no apologies needed! We're all here to get at the truth
          of the matter I reckon. That list is a very fine one if you want a
          comprehensive reference for boiling points of many of the possible compounds
          that might be in a wash, and it is not "nonsense" at all. However, it does
          not say that they will all be present, nor does it include some of the more
          exotic compounds that might be around. In fact, not all of them are
          alcohols.

          Acetone is sometimes present in a wash, but almost always in very small
          quantities unless you have gone very badly astray. Acetone is not an
          alcohol ... it's a ketone. The most common compound in significant quantity
          in heads (particularly sugar washes) is usually ethyl acetate ... also not
          an alcohol. Yhis is a compound used in the food industry in small
          quantities to enhance flavors, so it's not likely to strike you dead on the
          spot. However, too much of it can be unpleasant.

          This thing about acetone may be similar to the methanol that we keep hearing
          about from those new to distilling. Both methanol and acetone are compounds
          that are commonly known, for folklore stresses the dangers of methanol (very
          real in the corn mashes the moonshiners used to make) and we still talk of
          "methylated spirits" when methanol hasn't been used for decades to denature
          ethanol.

          Acetone is also very well known as nail polish remover, so both are chemical
          names that many people are familiar with. The hardest job is trying to
          convince people that these are not particularly common in what we do. As
          most now know, you cannot get methanol from a sugar wash, but only from
          grain or fruit washes that contain pectin. Acetone is actually quite hard
          to make. You can get it from decomposition of starch, together with n-butyl
          alcohol, but it is a bacterial reaction. This process was used widely in
          the first World War when acetone was required for the manufacture of cordite
          (see http://tinyurl.com/7s5dr ). You need a particularly dirty wash and the
          appropriate bacteria before you might see this in quantity in one of your
          brews ... but no brews are sterile, so a bit might crop up from time to
          time. Another way you could get acetone is by oxidation of iso-propyl
          alcohol (1-propanol), but you would need a mixture of sodium dichromate and
          sulphuric acid to do it. Not recommended if you are aiming for something
          good to drink!

          Boring, eh?
          All the best,
          Mike N
        • harle61274@aol.com
          OH MY LORD did you say cajun heheheheheeheh how bad did you get hurt or did you excape. harle In a message dated 5/3/2005 6:37:47 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          Message 4 of 16 , May 4, 2005
            OH MY LORD did you say cajun heheheheheeheh how bad did you get hurt or did
            you excape.
            harle

            In a message dated 5/3/2005 6:37:47 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            blackledge_02@... writes:

            WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH ACETONE ? BUILDING A BOMB ?

            slipslider2 <slipslider2@...> wrote:The old sitcom "LOST IN SPACE"
            should be tatooed on the foreheads of
            EVERY beginner of this hobby. I have been reading and studying this
            hobby for over a year while designing and building my still. I
            FINALLY cranked it up with water and vinegar for a final cleaning
            then proceeded to run my first sugar wash (18%). I'm cooking on
            propane and (the old crawfish boiling cajun that I am) cranked up the
            heat to get my 26 liters to a boil. In full reflux I watched the
            temp. gauge atop my column rise to 90 degrees then ZOOM to around 190
            in an instant. I expected my valved reflux still to stabilize at, or
            near 134 degrees(boiling point of acetone)deducing from my studies
            that the head temperature would remain in that zone refluxing the
            acetone until it was bled off. I immediately reduced the heat
            assuming that I was "too hot" on the burner and made a "bee line" to
            my computer to ask the simple question that I have NEVER read
            about ... "At what temp. SHOULD my reflux still stabilize". My phone
            line and impatience thwarted my effort. So ... seeing that my head
            temp. was again high and that I had a few drops of liquid on the top
            of my milk can, I decided to pull the cork on the top of the column
            to see if I was still applying too much heat and boiling up my
            column. As soon as I pulled the cork "Warning Will
            Robinson" "DANGER" "DANGER" permeated throughout my head!!!!







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • harle61274@aol.com
            In a message dated 5/3/2005 10:44:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, richutchings@adam.com.au writes: I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F
            Message 5 of 16 , May 4, 2005
              In a message dated 5/3/2005 10:44:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              richutchings@... writes:

              I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C
              Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there.
              Or at least thats what I read on this forum.



              I was thinking methanol was the first but I can be rong
              harle


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • rodmacd2000
              I have a very clear memory of the smell of my mother s nail polish remover (acetone)from when I was a small boy and I definitely perceive the same strong and
              Message 6 of 16 , May 4, 2005
                I have a very clear memory of the smell of my mother's nail polish
                remover (acetone)from when I was a small boy and I definitely perceive
                the same strong and noxious smell from the first couple of ounces of
                foreshots at the start of a spirit run. I'm certain this is not the
                smell of ethyl acetate.

                I'm not a fanatic about cleanliness given that I work with a straight
                sugar wash and a Turbo Yeast which completes its work in four days (so
                I'm confident that I'm not "very badly astray").

                No idea of *how much* acetone is there but it sure makes its presence
                known to the nose.

                IMHO

                Rod

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                ...
                > Acetone is sometimes present in a wash, but almost always in very
                small
                > quantities unless you have gone very badly astray.
                ...
                > Acetone is also very well known as nail polish remover, so both are
                chemical
                > names that many people are familiar with. The hardest job is
                trying to
                > convince people that these are not particularly common in what we
                do.
              • Mark
                I suggest that you calibrate the still, per Alex s instructions. Mark ... ... condenser ... on ... That ... same ... column ... changing
                Message 7 of 16 , May 4, 2005
                  I suggest that you "calibrate" the still, per Alex's instructions.
                  Mark



                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "slipslider2"
                  <slipslider2@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Dean'
                  > > I'm running an OFFSET valved reflux head. The top of the
                  > condenser
                  > > has 4 - 1" holes drilled in the cap. See pics in slipsliders
                  > > photos. I was just running WAY too many B.T. U.'s
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My guess is ALL of your problems are stemming from just that, too
                  > many BTU's. You push it hard, there's lots of vapour, the
                  condenser
                  > liquefy's it, it fills up PAST the reflux return pipe, then goes
                  > back to the column via the larger vapour pipe. That accounts for
                  > the sudden drop in temperature. Liquid is hitting the temp probe
                  on
                  > it's way to escaping back to the column thru the vapour pipe.
                  That
                  > also accounts for the spillage when you opened the column. The
                  same
                  > escaping liquid was blown out the top as the path of least
                  > resistance. You need to lower the flame considerably, and adjust
                  > your takeoff rate / reflux rate so that reflux returns to the
                  column
                  > through the correct (lower) pipe. You might also consider
                  changing
                  > the angle of the reflux return pipe to 30° or bigger downward
                  > slope. That will allow the reflux to return much easier, but
                  above
                  > all REDUCE that flame.
                  >
                  > Slainte!
                  > regards Harry
                • donald holcombe
                  I went back and reread your story and got a grip on all the contents. I spoke too quickly ! I cant say exactly what comes out of some of the washes we make .
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 4, 2005
                    I went back and reread your story and got a grip on all the contents. I spoke too quickly ! I cant say exactly what comes out of some of the washes we make . Iagree a small amount of several compound may be present. My origenal thought was you did a cleaning run. Cleaning with acetone and alcohol could be scary ! Ive only had one still blow up and I wasnt running it at the time. It was a 3 gallon still sealed with flour paste. It did fill the garage rapidly with steam, I never knew a 1 legged 260lb man could run faster than me. Be careful and I hope youre oK.

                    ric hutchings <richutchings@...> wrote:I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C
                    Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there.
                    Or at least thats what I read on this forum.

                    regards ric

                    -------Original Message-------

                    From: donald holcombe
                    Date: 05/04/05 14:45:27
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

                    WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH ACETONE ? BUILDING A BOMB ?

                    slipslider2 <slipslider2@...> wrote: I have been reading and studying
                    this
                    hobby for over a year while designing and building my still. I expected
                    my valved reflux still to stabilize at, or
                    near 134 degrees(boiling point of acetone)deducing from my studies
                    that the head temperature would remain in that zone refluxing the
                    acetone until it was bled off.





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                  • slipslider2
                    You were right Harry ... I WAS running too many B.T.U. S ... FOR RATIO OF REFLUX RATE vs. TAKEOFF RATE that I was using. It wasn t that the amount of heat
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 21, 2005
                      You were right Harry ...
                      I WAS running too many B.T.U.'S ... FOR RATIO OF REFLUX RATE vs.
                      TAKEOFF RATE that I was using. It wasn't that the amount of heat
                      was too high in as much as the take-off rate was too low - allowing
                      the condensation tube to overflow into the vapour pipe.

                      I calibrated my still at the lower temp. setting and got 30
                      ml./minute. I adjusted my take off rate to 5 ml/minute and all
                      worked as it should.

                      GREAT troubleshooting skills Harry. KUDOS!

                      Laissez le bon temps roulette,
                      Slipslider the Cajun




                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "slipslider2"
                      <slipslider2@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Dean'
                      > > I'm running an OFFSET valved reflux head. The top of the
                      > condenser
                      > > has 4 - 1" holes drilled in the cap. See pics in slipsliders
                      > > photos. I was just running WAY too many B.T. U.'s
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > My guess is ALL of your problems are stemming from just that, too
                      > many BTU's. You push it hard, there's lots of vapour, the
                      condenser
                      > liquefy's it, it fills up PAST the reflux return pipe, then goes
                      > back to the column via the larger vapour pipe. That accounts for
                      > the sudden drop in temperature. Liquid is hitting the temp probe
                      on
                      > it's way to escaping back to the column thru the vapour pipe.
                      That
                      > also accounts for the spillage when you opened the column. The
                      same
                      > escaping liquid was blown out the top as the path of least
                      > resistance. You need to lower the flame considerably, and adjust
                      > your takeoff rate / reflux rate so that reflux returns to the
                      column
                      > through the correct (lower) pipe. You might also consider
                      changing
                      > the angle of the reflux return pipe to 30° or bigger downward
                      > slope. That will allow the reflux to return much easier, but
                      above
                      > all REDUCE that flame.
                      >
                      > Slainte!
                      > regards Harry
                    • Harry
                      ... allowing ... Merci. Ca c est bon! Lache pas la patate. Slainte! regards Harry
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 21, 2005
                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "slipslider2" <slipslider2@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > You were right Harry ...
                        > I WAS running too many B.T.U.'S ... FOR RATIO OF REFLUX RATE vs.
                        > TAKEOFF RATE that I was using. It wasn't that the amount of heat
                        > was too high in as much as the take-off rate was too low -
                        allowing
                        > the condensation tube to overflow into the vapour pipe.
                        >
                        > I calibrated my still at the lower temp. setting and got 30
                        > ml./minute. I adjusted my take off rate to 5 ml/minute and all
                        > worked as it should.
                        >
                        > GREAT troubleshooting skills Harry. KUDOS!
                        >
                        > Laissez le bon temps roulette,
                        > Slipslider the Cajun



                        Merci. Ca c'est bon! Lache pas la patate.

                        Slainte!
                        regards Harry
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