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Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

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  • ric hutchings
    I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there. Or at least thats what I
    Message 1 of 16 , May 3, 2005
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      I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C
      Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there.
      Or at least thats what I read on this forum.

      regards ric

      -------Original Message-------

      From: donald holcombe
      Date: 05/04/05 14:45:27
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

      WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH ACETONE ? BUILDING A BOMB ?

      slipslider2 <slipslider2@...> wrote: I have been reading and studying
      this
      hobby for over a year while designing and building my still. I expected
      my valved reflux still to stabilize at, or
      near 134 degrees(boiling point of acetone)deducing from my studies
      that the head temperature would remain in that zone refluxing the
      acetone until it was bled off.





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    • Mike Nixon
      ric hutchings wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!! I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C Probably pretty
      Message 2 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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        ric hutchings wrote:
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

        I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C
        Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there.
        Or at least thats what I read on this forum.
        ==============
        What's all this about acetone? Don't you mean ethyl acetate?

        All the best,
        Mike N
      • ric hutchings
        Mike I include here a copy of an earlier post on this forum. Snowblind Moose Date: 02/26/05 17:01:21 To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Subject:
        Message 3 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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          Mike I include here a copy of an earlier post on this forum.
          Snowblind Moose
          Date: 02/26/05 17:01:21
          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Evaporation Temp, Table


          Hi Slipslider,

          Is this what you're looking for? - It's from homedistiller.org:


          The alcohols in the wash begin to vapourise from the wash around
          specific temperatures. If by themselves they would be ...

          Acetone 56.5C (134F)
          Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
          Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
          Ethanol 78C (172F)
          2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
          1-Propanol 97C (207F)
          Water 100C (212F)
          Butanol 116C (241F)
          Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
          Furfural 161C (322F)

          Once together, a mixture of several of them will be slightly
          different however. You no longer get them coming off seperately, but
          always as a mixture. Fortunately for us though, each of the species
          will tend to dominate around its boiling point temperature, thus we
          know whats "mostly" coming off at that point. By tracking the
          temperature of the vapour, you have a fairly good idea when you're
          collecting the Ethanol your after (78-82 °C), vs when it is starting
          to get lean and you're into the higher alcohols.

          -Tony



          If I have miss read Acetone for ethyl acetate then I apologies.
          If not then you may care to explain why such an erroneous posting could find
          its way to the forum and then become accepted fact.
          Or is it just more of that "nonsense " you referred to earlier today.
          regards ric

          -------Original Message-------

          From: Mike Nixon
          Date: 05/04/05 16:35:45
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

          ric hutchings wrote:
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

          I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C
          Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there.
          Or at least thats what I read on this forum.
          ==============
          What's all this about acetone? Don't you mean ethyl acetate?

          All the best,
          Mike N



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        • Mike Nixon
          ric hutchings wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!! Mike I include here a copy of an earlier post on this forum. Snowblind Moose Date:
          Message 4 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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            ric hutchings wrote:
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

            Mike I include here a copy of an earlier post on this forum.
            Snowblind Moose
            Date: 02/26/05 17:01:21
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Evaporation Temp, Table

            Hi Slipslider,

            Is this what you're looking for? - It's from homedistiller.org:

            The alcohols in the wash begin to vapourise from the wash around
            specific temperatures. If by themselves they would be ...

            Acetone 56.5C (134F)
            Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
            Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
            Ethanol 78C (172F)
            2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
            1-Propanol 97C (207F)
            Water 100C (212F)
            Butanol 116C (241F)
            Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
            Furfural 161C (322F)

            Once together, a mixture of several of them will be slightly
            different however. You no longer get them coming off seperately, but
            always as a mixture. Fortunately for us though, each of the species
            will tend to dominate around its boiling point temperature, thus we
            know whats "mostly" coming off at that point. By tracking the
            temperature of the vapour, you have a fairly good idea when you're
            collecting the Ethanol your after (78-82 °C), vs when it is starting
            to get lean and you're into the higher alcohols.

            -Tony
            ---------------------------------------
            If I have miss read Acetone for ethyl acetate then I apologies.
            If not then you may care to explain why such an erroneous posting could find
            its way to the forum and then become accepted fact.
            Or is it just more of that "nonsense " you referred to earlier today.
            regards ric
            ==========================
            Good grief Ric ,,, no apologies needed! We're all here to get at the truth
            of the matter I reckon. That list is a very fine one if you want a
            comprehensive reference for boiling points of many of the possible compounds
            that might be in a wash, and it is not "nonsense" at all. However, it does
            not say that they will all be present, nor does it include some of the more
            exotic compounds that might be around. In fact, not all of them are
            alcohols.

            Acetone is sometimes present in a wash, but almost always in very small
            quantities unless you have gone very badly astray. Acetone is not an
            alcohol ... it's a ketone. The most common compound in significant quantity
            in heads (particularly sugar washes) is usually ethyl acetate ... also not
            an alcohol. Yhis is a compound used in the food industry in small
            quantities to enhance flavors, so it's not likely to strike you dead on the
            spot. However, too much of it can be unpleasant.

            This thing about acetone may be similar to the methanol that we keep hearing
            about from those new to distilling. Both methanol and acetone are compounds
            that are commonly known, for folklore stresses the dangers of methanol (very
            real in the corn mashes the moonshiners used to make) and we still talk of
            "methylated spirits" when methanol hasn't been used for decades to denature
            ethanol.

            Acetone is also very well known as nail polish remover, so both are chemical
            names that many people are familiar with. The hardest job is trying to
            convince people that these are not particularly common in what we do. As
            most now know, you cannot get methanol from a sugar wash, but only from
            grain or fruit washes that contain pectin. Acetone is actually quite hard
            to make. You can get it from decomposition of starch, together with n-butyl
            alcohol, but it is a bacterial reaction. This process was used widely in
            the first World War when acetone was required for the manufacture of cordite
            (see http://tinyurl.com/7s5dr ). You need a particularly dirty wash and the
            appropriate bacteria before you might see this in quantity in one of your
            brews ... but no brews are sterile, so a bit might crop up from time to
            time. Another way you could get acetone is by oxidation of iso-propyl
            alcohol (1-propanol), but you would need a mixture of sodium dichromate and
            sulphuric acid to do it. Not recommended if you are aiming for something
            good to drink!

            Boring, eh?
            All the best,
            Mike N
          • harle61274@aol.com
            OH MY LORD did you say cajun heheheheheeheh how bad did you get hurt or did you excape. harle In a message dated 5/3/2005 6:37:47 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            Message 5 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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              OH MY LORD did you say cajun heheheheheeheh how bad did you get hurt or did
              you excape.
              harle

              In a message dated 5/3/2005 6:37:47 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              blackledge_02@... writes:

              WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH ACETONE ? BUILDING A BOMB ?

              slipslider2 <slipslider2@...> wrote:The old sitcom "LOST IN SPACE"
              should be tatooed on the foreheads of
              EVERY beginner of this hobby. I have been reading and studying this
              hobby for over a year while designing and building my still. I
              FINALLY cranked it up with water and vinegar for a final cleaning
              then proceeded to run my first sugar wash (18%). I'm cooking on
              propane and (the old crawfish boiling cajun that I am) cranked up the
              heat to get my 26 liters to a boil. In full reflux I watched the
              temp. gauge atop my column rise to 90 degrees then ZOOM to around 190
              in an instant. I expected my valved reflux still to stabilize at, or
              near 134 degrees(boiling point of acetone)deducing from my studies
              that the head temperature would remain in that zone refluxing the
              acetone until it was bled off. I immediately reduced the heat
              assuming that I was "too hot" on the burner and made a "bee line" to
              my computer to ask the simple question that I have NEVER read
              about ... "At what temp. SHOULD my reflux still stabilize". My phone
              line and impatience thwarted my effort. So ... seeing that my head
              temp. was again high and that I had a few drops of liquid on the top
              of my milk can, I decided to pull the cork on the top of the column
              to see if I was still applying too much heat and boiling up my
              column. As soon as I pulled the cork "Warning Will
              Robinson" "DANGER" "DANGER" permeated throughout my head!!!!







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • harle61274@aol.com
              In a message dated 5/3/2005 10:44:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, richutchings@adam.com.au writes: I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F
              Message 6 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                In a message dated 5/3/2005 10:44:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                richutchings@... writes:

                I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C
                Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there.
                Or at least thats what I read on this forum.



                I was thinking methanol was the first but I can be rong
                harle


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • rodmacd2000
                I have a very clear memory of the smell of my mother s nail polish remover (acetone)from when I was a small boy and I definitely perceive the same strong and
                Message 7 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                  I have a very clear memory of the smell of my mother's nail polish
                  remover (acetone)from when I was a small boy and I definitely perceive
                  the same strong and noxious smell from the first couple of ounces of
                  foreshots at the start of a spirit run. I'm certain this is not the
                  smell of ethyl acetate.

                  I'm not a fanatic about cleanliness given that I work with a straight
                  sugar wash and a Turbo Yeast which completes its work in four days (so
                  I'm confident that I'm not "very badly astray").

                  No idea of *how much* acetone is there but it sure makes its presence
                  known to the nose.

                  IMHO

                  Rod

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                  ...
                  > Acetone is sometimes present in a wash, but almost always in very
                  small
                  > quantities unless you have gone very badly astray.
                  ...
                  > Acetone is also very well known as nail polish remover, so both are
                  chemical
                  > names that many people are familiar with. The hardest job is
                  trying to
                  > convince people that these are not particularly common in what we
                  do.
                • Mark
                  I suggest that you calibrate the still, per Alex s instructions. Mark ... ... condenser ... on ... That ... same ... column ... changing
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                    I suggest that you "calibrate" the still, per Alex's instructions.
                    Mark



                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "slipslider2"
                    <slipslider2@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > Dean'
                    > > I'm running an OFFSET valved reflux head. The top of the
                    > condenser
                    > > has 4 - 1" holes drilled in the cap. See pics in slipsliders
                    > > photos. I was just running WAY too many B.T. U.'s
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > My guess is ALL of your problems are stemming from just that, too
                    > many BTU's. You push it hard, there's lots of vapour, the
                    condenser
                    > liquefy's it, it fills up PAST the reflux return pipe, then goes
                    > back to the column via the larger vapour pipe. That accounts for
                    > the sudden drop in temperature. Liquid is hitting the temp probe
                    on
                    > it's way to escaping back to the column thru the vapour pipe.
                    That
                    > also accounts for the spillage when you opened the column. The
                    same
                    > escaping liquid was blown out the top as the path of least
                    > resistance. You need to lower the flame considerably, and adjust
                    > your takeoff rate / reflux rate so that reflux returns to the
                    column
                    > through the correct (lower) pipe. You might also consider
                    changing
                    > the angle of the reflux return pipe to 30° or bigger downward
                    > slope. That will allow the reflux to return much easier, but
                    above
                    > all REDUCE that flame.
                    >
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry
                  • donald holcombe
                    I went back and reread your story and got a grip on all the contents. I spoke too quickly ! I cant say exactly what comes out of some of the washes we make .
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                      I went back and reread your story and got a grip on all the contents. I spoke too quickly ! I cant say exactly what comes out of some of the washes we make . Iagree a small amount of several compound may be present. My origenal thought was you did a cleaning run. Cleaning with acetone and alcohol could be scary ! Ive only had one still blow up and I wasnt running it at the time. It was a 3 gallon still sealed with flour paste. It did fill the garage rapidly with steam, I never knew a 1 legged 260lb man could run faster than me. Be careful and I hope youre oK.

                      ric hutchings <richutchings@...> wrote:I believe Acetone is the first alcohol to boil off at 134 F or 56.6 C
                      Probably pretty hard to do what we do without a bit of it there.
                      Or at least thats what I read on this forum.

                      regards ric

                      -------Original Message-------

                      From: donald holcombe
                      Date: 05/04/05 14:45:27
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] 1st run I caught on fire!!

                      WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH ACETONE ? BUILDING A BOMB ?

                      slipslider2 <slipslider2@...> wrote: I have been reading and studying
                      this
                      hobby for over a year while designing and building my still. I expected
                      my valved reflux still to stabilize at, or
                      near 134 degrees(boiling point of acetone)deducing from my studies
                      that the head temperature would remain in that zone refluxing the
                      acetone until it was bled off.





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                    • slipslider2
                      You were right Harry ... I WAS running too many B.T.U. S ... FOR RATIO OF REFLUX RATE vs. TAKEOFF RATE that I was using. It wasn t that the amount of heat
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 21, 2005
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                        You were right Harry ...
                        I WAS running too many B.T.U.'S ... FOR RATIO OF REFLUX RATE vs.
                        TAKEOFF RATE that I was using. It wasn't that the amount of heat
                        was too high in as much as the take-off rate was too low - allowing
                        the condensation tube to overflow into the vapour pipe.

                        I calibrated my still at the lower temp. setting and got 30
                        ml./minute. I adjusted my take off rate to 5 ml/minute and all
                        worked as it should.

                        GREAT troubleshooting skills Harry. KUDOS!

                        Laissez le bon temps roulette,
                        Slipslider the Cajun




                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "slipslider2"
                        <slipslider2@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > Dean'
                        > > I'm running an OFFSET valved reflux head. The top of the
                        > condenser
                        > > has 4 - 1" holes drilled in the cap. See pics in slipsliders
                        > > photos. I was just running WAY too many B.T. U.'s
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My guess is ALL of your problems are stemming from just that, too
                        > many BTU's. You push it hard, there's lots of vapour, the
                        condenser
                        > liquefy's it, it fills up PAST the reflux return pipe, then goes
                        > back to the column via the larger vapour pipe. That accounts for
                        > the sudden drop in temperature. Liquid is hitting the temp probe
                        on
                        > it's way to escaping back to the column thru the vapour pipe.
                        That
                        > also accounts for the spillage when you opened the column. The
                        same
                        > escaping liquid was blown out the top as the path of least
                        > resistance. You need to lower the flame considerably, and adjust
                        > your takeoff rate / reflux rate so that reflux returns to the
                        column
                        > through the correct (lower) pipe. You might also consider
                        changing
                        > the angle of the reflux return pipe to 30° or bigger downward
                        > slope. That will allow the reflux to return much easier, but
                        above
                        > all REDUCE that flame.
                        >
                        > Slainte!
                        > regards Harry
                      • Harry
                        ... allowing ... Merci. Ca c est bon! Lache pas la patate. Slainte! regards Harry
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 21, 2005
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                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "slipslider2" <slipslider2@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > You were right Harry ...
                          > I WAS running too many B.T.U.'S ... FOR RATIO OF REFLUX RATE vs.
                          > TAKEOFF RATE that I was using. It wasn't that the amount of heat
                          > was too high in as much as the take-off rate was too low -
                          allowing
                          > the condensation tube to overflow into the vapour pipe.
                          >
                          > I calibrated my still at the lower temp. setting and got 30
                          > ml./minute. I adjusted my take off rate to 5 ml/minute and all
                          > worked as it should.
                          >
                          > GREAT troubleshooting skills Harry. KUDOS!
                          >
                          > Laissez le bon temps roulette,
                          > Slipslider the Cajun



                          Merci. Ca c'est bon! Lache pas la patate.

                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
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