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RE: [Distillers] Sodium Carbonate?

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  • Tony & Elle Ackland
    It was Ken actually, and he d spotted it in Leonard Monzert s Practical Distiller . I have yet to try it myself. But re the azeotrope - I ll take a punt and
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 1 10:55 PM
      It was Ken actually, and he'd spotted it in "Leonard Monzert's Practical
      Distiller". I have yet to try it myself.

      But re the azeotrope - I'll take a punt and say that it wouldn't affect it.
      You'll need something that changes the relative vapour pressure of the two
      (ethanol and water). Salts can do this, and definately using a vaccum
      will, but I don't think that having an oil / soap on the surface will help
      with it. Incidentally, others sometimes just pour a little cooking oil on
      the surface of the wash if its prone to frothing up or boiling over.

      Tony
    • Pete Sayers
      As far as the frothing goes, and if you have excess sugar, we have a Distilling Conditioner for sale. Add 5 mls of this to the wash when you add to the
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 2 3:01 PM
        As far as the "frothing' goes, and if you have excess sugar, we have a
        "Distilling Conditioner" for sale. Add 5 mls of this to the wash when you
        add to the still, and this will prevent excessive frothing.
        Pete

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tony & Elle Ackland [mailto:Tony.Ackland@...]
        Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2001 17:56
        To: 'Distillers newsgroup'
        Subject: RE: [Distillers] Sodium Carbonate?


        It was Ken actually, and he'd spotted it in "Leonard Monzert's Practical
        Distiller". I have yet to try it myself.

        But re the azeotrope - I'll take a punt and say that it wouldn't affect it.
        You'll need something that changes the relative vapour pressure of the two
        (ethanol and water). Salts can do this, and definately using a vaccum
        will, but I don't think that having an oil / soap on the surface will help
        with it. Incidentally, others sometimes just pour a little cooking oil on
        the surface of the wash if its prone to frothing up or boiling over.

        Tony





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      • D. C.
        What is Sodium Carbonate, and is it safe to use in spirit that is intended for drinking? I ask this because I have been finding more people talking about using
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 6 8:10 PM
          What is Sodium Carbonate, and is it safe to use in spirit that is intended
          for drinking? I ask this because I have been finding more people talking
          about using it in their spirit for fuel reasons.

          If it is safe, where can someone buy it? Is it known as another name?

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        • Tony & Elle Ackland
          ... http://www.bartleby.com/65/so/sodiumca.html sodium carbonate chemical compound, Na2CO3, soluble in water and very slightly soluble in alcohol. Pure sodium
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 6 11:35 PM
            >What is Sodium Carbonate

            http://www.bartleby.com/65/so/sodiumca.html

            sodium carbonate

            chemical compound, Na2CO3, soluble in water and very slightly soluble in
            alcohol. Pure sodium carbonate is a white, odorless powder that absorbs
            moisture from the air, has an alkaline taste, and forms a strongly alkaline
            water solution. It is one of the most basic industrial chemicals. Sodium
            carbonate decahydrate, Na2CO3.10H2O, is a colorless, transparent
            crystalline compound commonly called sal soda or washing soda. Because
            seaweed ashes were an early source of sodium carbonate, it is often called
            soda ash or, simply, soda. The Solvay process provides most sodium
            carbonate for industrial use. It is found in large natural deposits and is
            mined in Wyoming; it is also recovered (with other chemicals) from lake
            brines in California. The principal uses of sodium carbonate are in the
            manufacture of glass and the production of chemicals. It is also used in
            processing wood pulp to make paper, in making soaps and detergents, in
            refining aluminum, in water softening, and in many other applications. The
            Leblanc process, the first successful commercial process for making soda,
            is no longer used in the United States but played a major role in the
            Industrial Revolution.

            The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright ? 2001 Columbia
            University Press.


            note that it is slightly different from baking soda , sodium bicarbonate


            http://www.bartleby.com/65/so/sodiumbi.html

            sodium bicarbonate

            or sodium hydrogen carbonate, chemical compound, NaHCO3, a white
            crystalline or granular powder, commonly known as bicarbonate of soda or
            baking soda. It is soluble in water and very slightly soluble in alcohol.
            It evolves carbon dioxide gas when heated above about 50?C, a property made
            use of in baking powder, of which it is a component. It is also decomposed
            by most acids; the acid is neutralized and carbon dioxide is given off. The
            major use of sodium bicarbonate is in foods, e.g., baked goods. It is used
            in effervescent "salts" and is sometimes used medically to correct excess
            stomach acidity. It is also used in several kinds of fire extinguishers.
            Although it is an intermediate product in the Solvay process for making
            sodium carbonate, it is more economical to prepare it from purified sodium
            carbonate than to purify the intermediate. Because the bicarbonate is less
            soluble than the carbonate, carbon dioxide gas is bubbled into a saturated
            solution of pure carbonate, and the bicarbonate precipitates out to be
            collected and dried.
          • yahoo@steampower.net
            ... soluble in ... Greetings. My first post to the group brings a warning. The results of the process could be dire. Has anybody in the group used sodium
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 9 2:59 AM
              --- In Distillers@y..., Tony & Elle Ackland <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
              > >What is Sodium Carbonate
              >
              > http://www.bartleby.com/65/so/sodiumca.html
              >
              > sodium carbonate
              >
              > chemical compound, Na2CO3, soluble in water and very slightly
              soluble in
              > alcohol. ... snip snip ...

              Greetings. My first post to the group brings a warning. The results
              of the process could be dire. Has anybody in the group used sodium
              carbonate or seen a description of the process. If it is soluble in
              water doesn't this mean it will dissolve in the alcohol/water
              solution? How do you separate it from the alcohol taking the water
              with it?

              This stuff is readily available from the laundry section of the
              supermarket. It is alkaline, but does not burn on contact as does
              sodium hydroxide. An overdose with the results described below would
              probably require a large quantity, but how much?

              More info on my distilling history will follow soon.

              From:
              http://webmd.lycos.com/content/asset/adam_poison_sodium_carbonate

              Definition
              Poisoning from an overdose of sodium carbonate.

              Poisonous Ingredient
              sodium carbonate
              Symptoms

              body as a whole
              severe pain in the mouth
              collapse
              respiratory
              breathing difficulty due to throat swelling
              eyes, ears, nose, and throat
              severe pain in the throat
              gastrointestinal
              severe abdominal pain
              diarrhea
              heart and blood vessels
              low blood pressure develops rapidly



              where Found
              automatic dishwashing soaps
              some antacids
              some bleaches
              some bubble bath solutions
              Clinitest
              some steam iron cleaners
              Note: This list may not be all inclusive.


              Expectations (Prognosis)
              The prognosis (probable outcome) will be dependent on how rapidly the
              alkali was diluted and neutralized. Extensive damage to the mouth,
              throat, and stomach are possible. The ultimate outcome depends on the
              extent of this damage. Damage continues to occur to the esophagus and
              stomach for several weeks after the alkali was swallowed, and death
              may occur as long as a month later.


              Before Calling Emergency
              Determine the following information:

              the patient's age, weight, and condition
              the name of the product (ingredients and strengths if known)
              the time it was swallowed
              the amount swallowed
              Poison Control, Or A Local Emergency Number
              They will instruct you if it is necessary to take the patient to the
              hospital. Take the container with you to the emergency room.

              What To Expect At The Emergency Room
              Some or all of the following procedures may be performed:

              for swallowed poison
              Give fluids.
              Give an antidote.
              Treat the symptoms.
              for inhaled poison
              Treat the symptoms.
              Home Treatment
              DO NOT INDUCE EMESIS (VOMITING).
              If the chemical is on the skin or in the eyes, flush with lots of
              water for at least 15 minutes.
              If the chemical was swallowed, give water or milk IMMEDIATELY. If the
              patient is vomiting, keep giving water or milk.


              The information provided herein should not be used for diagnosis or
              treatment of any medical condition. A licensed physician should be
              consulted for diagnosis and treatment of any and all medical
              conditions. (See disclaimer). Copyright 1999 adam.com, Inc. Any
              duplication or distribution of the information contained herein is
              strictly prohibited.
            • Tarvus
              ... This is not a concern. The effect of distillation is to separate the distillate from dissolved salts. This holds true be it water, alcohol, or an
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 9 5:21 AM
                --- In Distillers@y..., yahoo@s... wrote:

                > Greetings. My first post to the group brings a warning. The results
                > of the process could be dire. Has anybody in the group used sodium
                > carbonate or seen a description of the process. If it is soluble in
                > water doesn't this mean it will dissolve in the alcohol/water
                > solution? How do you separate it from the alcohol taking the water
                > with it?


                This is not a concern. The effect of distillation is to separate the
                distillate from dissolved salts. This holds true be it water,
                alcohol, or an alcohol/water mixture as the end distillate.

                The only way this could be a concern is if one is running a still at
                such a high temp that the wash liquid bubbles through the still as a
                liquid rather than a vapor. If that happens, you aren't really
                distilling anyway - you're just transferring boiling liquid from one
                container to another.

                regards,
                Tar
              • Tony & Elle Ackland
                Thanks for the warning. Poisoning would also depend on the concentration of it present. The original email recommended 4.5 g per Litre - eg 30g in a 20L
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 9 10:57 AM
                  Thanks for the warning. Poisoning would also depend on the concentration
                  of it present. The original email recommended 4.5 g per Litre - eg 30g in
                  a 20L wash. As pointed out, it is unlikely that any would come over in the
                  distillate, but even if it did, or if it got there via being pushed up the
                  column, then the concentration is likely to be very small.

                  Tony
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