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Sodium Carbonate?

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  • ywfbi@yahoo.com
    Tony put in a post a while back saying Sodium Carbonate in the wash can react with fussils holding them in the pot while distilling. Has anyone tried this?
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 31 10:29 PM
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      Tony put in a post a while back saying Sodium Carbonate in the wash
      can react with fussils holding them in the pot while distilling.
      Has anyone tried this?
      Would it also change/remove the azeotrope between ethanol and water
      (like benzene) so over 95% is possible?
    • Tony & Elle Ackland
      It was Ken actually, and he d spotted it in Leonard Monzert s Practical Distiller . I have yet to try it myself. But re the azeotrope - I ll take a punt and
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 1, 2001
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        It was Ken actually, and he'd spotted it in "Leonard Monzert's Practical
        Distiller". I have yet to try it myself.

        But re the azeotrope - I'll take a punt and say that it wouldn't affect it.
        You'll need something that changes the relative vapour pressure of the two
        (ethanol and water). Salts can do this, and definately using a vaccum
        will, but I don't think that having an oil / soap on the surface will help
        with it. Incidentally, others sometimes just pour a little cooking oil on
        the surface of the wash if its prone to frothing up or boiling over.

        Tony
      • Pete Sayers
        As far as the frothing goes, and if you have excess sugar, we have a Distilling Conditioner for sale. Add 5 mls of this to the wash when you add to the
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 2, 2001
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          As far as the "frothing' goes, and if you have excess sugar, we have a
          "Distilling Conditioner" for sale. Add 5 mls of this to the wash when you
          add to the still, and this will prevent excessive frothing.
          Pete

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Tony & Elle Ackland [mailto:Tony.Ackland@...]
          Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2001 17:56
          To: 'Distillers newsgroup'
          Subject: RE: [Distillers] Sodium Carbonate?


          It was Ken actually, and he'd spotted it in "Leonard Monzert's Practical
          Distiller". I have yet to try it myself.

          But re the azeotrope - I'll take a punt and say that it wouldn't affect it.
          You'll need something that changes the relative vapour pressure of the two
          (ethanol and water). Salts can do this, and definately using a vaccum
          will, but I don't think that having an oil / soap on the surface will help
          with it. Incidentally, others sometimes just pour a little cooking oil on
          the surface of the wash if its prone to frothing up or boiling over.

          Tony





          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • D. C.
          What is Sodium Carbonate, and is it safe to use in spirit that is intended for drinking? I ask this because I have been finding more people talking about using
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 6, 2001
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            What is Sodium Carbonate, and is it safe to use in spirit that is intended
            for drinking? I ask this because I have been finding more people talking
            about using it in their spirit for fuel reasons.

            If it is safe, where can someone buy it? Is it known as another name?

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          • Tony & Elle Ackland
            ... http://www.bartleby.com/65/so/sodiumca.html sodium carbonate chemical compound, Na2CO3, soluble in water and very slightly soluble in alcohol. Pure sodium
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 6, 2001
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              >What is Sodium Carbonate

              http://www.bartleby.com/65/so/sodiumca.html

              sodium carbonate

              chemical compound, Na2CO3, soluble in water and very slightly soluble in
              alcohol. Pure sodium carbonate is a white, odorless powder that absorbs
              moisture from the air, has an alkaline taste, and forms a strongly alkaline
              water solution. It is one of the most basic industrial chemicals. Sodium
              carbonate decahydrate, Na2CO3.10H2O, is a colorless, transparent
              crystalline compound commonly called sal soda or washing soda. Because
              seaweed ashes were an early source of sodium carbonate, it is often called
              soda ash or, simply, soda. The Solvay process provides most sodium
              carbonate for industrial use. It is found in large natural deposits and is
              mined in Wyoming; it is also recovered (with other chemicals) from lake
              brines in California. The principal uses of sodium carbonate are in the
              manufacture of glass and the production of chemicals. It is also used in
              processing wood pulp to make paper, in making soaps and detergents, in
              refining aluminum, in water softening, and in many other applications. The
              Leblanc process, the first successful commercial process for making soda,
              is no longer used in the United States but played a major role in the
              Industrial Revolution.

              The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright ? 2001 Columbia
              University Press.


              note that it is slightly different from baking soda , sodium bicarbonate


              http://www.bartleby.com/65/so/sodiumbi.html

              sodium bicarbonate

              or sodium hydrogen carbonate, chemical compound, NaHCO3, a white
              crystalline or granular powder, commonly known as bicarbonate of soda or
              baking soda. It is soluble in water and very slightly soluble in alcohol.
              It evolves carbon dioxide gas when heated above about 50?C, a property made
              use of in baking powder, of which it is a component. It is also decomposed
              by most acids; the acid is neutralized and carbon dioxide is given off. The
              major use of sodium bicarbonate is in foods, e.g., baked goods. It is used
              in effervescent "salts" and is sometimes used medically to correct excess
              stomach acidity. It is also used in several kinds of fire extinguishers.
              Although it is an intermediate product in the Solvay process for making
              sodium carbonate, it is more economical to prepare it from purified sodium
              carbonate than to purify the intermediate. Because the bicarbonate is less
              soluble than the carbonate, carbon dioxide gas is bubbled into a saturated
              solution of pure carbonate, and the bicarbonate precipitates out to be
              collected and dried.
            • yahoo@steampower.net
              ... soluble in ... Greetings. My first post to the group brings a warning. The results of the process could be dire. Has anybody in the group used sodium
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 9, 2001
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                --- In Distillers@y..., Tony & Elle Ackland <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
                > >What is Sodium Carbonate
                >
                > http://www.bartleby.com/65/so/sodiumca.html
                >
                > sodium carbonate
                >
                > chemical compound, Na2CO3, soluble in water and very slightly
                soluble in
                > alcohol. ... snip snip ...

                Greetings. My first post to the group brings a warning. The results
                of the process could be dire. Has anybody in the group used sodium
                carbonate or seen a description of the process. If it is soluble in
                water doesn't this mean it will dissolve in the alcohol/water
                solution? How do you separate it from the alcohol taking the water
                with it?

                This stuff is readily available from the laundry section of the
                supermarket. It is alkaline, but does not burn on contact as does
                sodium hydroxide. An overdose with the results described below would
                probably require a large quantity, but how much?

                More info on my distilling history will follow soon.

                From:
                http://webmd.lycos.com/content/asset/adam_poison_sodium_carbonate

                Definition
                Poisoning from an overdose of sodium carbonate.

                Poisonous Ingredient
                sodium carbonate
                Symptoms

                body as a whole
                severe pain in the mouth
                collapse
                respiratory
                breathing difficulty due to throat swelling
                eyes, ears, nose, and throat
                severe pain in the throat
                gastrointestinal
                severe abdominal pain
                diarrhea
                heart and blood vessels
                low blood pressure develops rapidly



                where Found
                automatic dishwashing soaps
                some antacids
                some bleaches
                some bubble bath solutions
                Clinitest
                some steam iron cleaners
                Note: This list may not be all inclusive.


                Expectations (Prognosis)
                The prognosis (probable outcome) will be dependent on how rapidly the
                alkali was diluted and neutralized. Extensive damage to the mouth,
                throat, and stomach are possible. The ultimate outcome depends on the
                extent of this damage. Damage continues to occur to the esophagus and
                stomach for several weeks after the alkali was swallowed, and death
                may occur as long as a month later.


                Before Calling Emergency
                Determine the following information:

                the patient's age, weight, and condition
                the name of the product (ingredients and strengths if known)
                the time it was swallowed
                the amount swallowed
                Poison Control, Or A Local Emergency Number
                They will instruct you if it is necessary to take the patient to the
                hospital. Take the container with you to the emergency room.

                What To Expect At The Emergency Room
                Some or all of the following procedures may be performed:

                for swallowed poison
                Give fluids.
                Give an antidote.
                Treat the symptoms.
                for inhaled poison
                Treat the symptoms.
                Home Treatment
                DO NOT INDUCE EMESIS (VOMITING).
                If the chemical is on the skin or in the eyes, flush with lots of
                water for at least 15 minutes.
                If the chemical was swallowed, give water or milk IMMEDIATELY. If the
                patient is vomiting, keep giving water or milk.


                The information provided herein should not be used for diagnosis or
                treatment of any medical condition. A licensed physician should be
                consulted for diagnosis and treatment of any and all medical
                conditions. (See disclaimer). Copyright 1999 adam.com, Inc. Any
                duplication or distribution of the information contained herein is
                strictly prohibited.
              • Tarvus
                ... This is not a concern. The effect of distillation is to separate the distillate from dissolved salts. This holds true be it water, alcohol, or an
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 9, 2001
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                  --- In Distillers@y..., yahoo@s... wrote:

                  > Greetings. My first post to the group brings a warning. The results
                  > of the process could be dire. Has anybody in the group used sodium
                  > carbonate or seen a description of the process. If it is soluble in
                  > water doesn't this mean it will dissolve in the alcohol/water
                  > solution? How do you separate it from the alcohol taking the water
                  > with it?


                  This is not a concern. The effect of distillation is to separate the
                  distillate from dissolved salts. This holds true be it water,
                  alcohol, or an alcohol/water mixture as the end distillate.

                  The only way this could be a concern is if one is running a still at
                  such a high temp that the wash liquid bubbles through the still as a
                  liquid rather than a vapor. If that happens, you aren't really
                  distilling anyway - you're just transferring boiling liquid from one
                  container to another.

                  regards,
                  Tar
                • Tony & Elle Ackland
                  Thanks for the warning. Poisoning would also depend on the concentration of it present. The original email recommended 4.5 g per Litre - eg 30g in a 20L
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 9, 2001
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                    Thanks for the warning. Poisoning would also depend on the concentration
                    of it present. The original email recommended 4.5 g per Litre - eg 30g in
                    a 20L wash. As pointed out, it is unlikely that any would come over in the
                    distillate, but even if it did, or if it got there via being pushed up the
                    column, then the concentration is likely to be very small.

                    Tony
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